Air Canada today said it is ready to adjust its schedules and capacity to limit disruptions for the traveling public and to ensure that customers get to their destinations in the event of a labour disruption at WestJet.

deebee278 wrote:

I'll admit that I know nothing about Canadian labor laws but in the US, the Pilots wouldn't actually be anywhere near an actual strike.

Skywatcher wrote:

I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?

Kashmon wrote:

please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry
finally then actual resources will be diverted to R and D so all these pilots can be replaced....

Strike our way to unemployment!

Skywatcher wrote:

I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?

1900Driver wrote:

Skywatcher wrote:

I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?

Stop manipulating the truth! The average pilot makes less then 200k. Give the amount of responsibilities they have, probably should be paid more.

Global scarcity for experienced crew is here, & it’s only a matter of time before they demand far more. Supply & demand.

idjim319 wrote:

1900Driver wrote:

Skywatcher wrote:

I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?

Stop manipulating the truth! The average pilot makes less then 200k. Give the amount of responsibilities they have, probably should be paid more.

Global scarcity for experienced crew is here, & it’s only a matter of time before they demand far more. Supply & demand.

There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.

Planeboy17 wrote:

idjim319 wrote:

1900Driver wrote:

Stop manipulating the truth! The average pilot makes less then 200k. Give the amount of responsibilities they have, probably should be paid more.

Global scarcity for experienced crew is here, & it’s only a matter of time before they demand far more. Supply & demand.

There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.

You say there are so many other professions that require MORE training/education with less salary but you fail to provide one example.
Social work services are being compared to an airline pilot? I have great respect for social work but that is completely a stretch.
I’m glad you feel happy about your salary level but I find it inappropriate for you to judge someone else’s salary level based on your comfort level. Are you just as upset at the executive management of WestJet as well? I’m fairly certain they don’t have nearly the level of responsibility in terms of life and death as the other examples you gave in your response.

idjim319 wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

idjim319 wrote:

There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.

You say there are so many other professions that require MORE training/education with less salary but you fail to provide one example.
Social work services are being compared to an airline pilot? I have great respect for social work but that is completely a stretch.
I’m glad you feel happy about your salary level but I find it inappropriate for you to judge someone else’s salary level based on your comfort level. Are you just as upset at the executive management of WestJet as well? I’m fairly certain they don’t have nearly the level of responsibility in terms of life and death as the other examples you gave in your response.

With precision you demonstrate my point and reveal your own myopic and apparent limited understand of how this world works. I know nothing about westjet management and it doesn't affect my opinion that 200k is a lot of money to bitch and moan about being hard done by. Try getting your masters if you don't like it.

MIflyer12 wrote:

deebee278 wrote:

I'll admit that I know nothing about Canadian labor laws but in the US, the Pilots wouldn't actually be anywhere near an actual strike.

That frames my question for the OP. Under Canadian labor law, what has to happen between a pilot strike authorization vote and an actual strike? Anything at all in air transport?

Kashmon wrote:

please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry
finally then actual resources will be diverted to R and D so all these pilots can be replaced....

Strike our way to unemployment!

idjim319 wrote:

1900Driver wrote:

Skywatcher wrote:

I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?

Stop manipulating the truth! The average pilot makes less then 200k. Give the amount of responsibilities they have, probably should be paid more.

Global scarcity for experienced crew is here, & it’s only a matter of time before they demand far more. Supply & demand.

There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.

Dominion301 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

deebee278 wrote:

I'll admit that I know nothing about Canadian labor laws but in the US, the Pilots wouldn't actually be anywhere near an actual strike.

That frames my question for the OP. Under Canadian labor law, what has to happen between a pilot strike authorization vote and an actual strike? Anything at all in air transport?

While I’m no expert when it comes to our labour laws, it certainly wouldn’t be years before the pilots could go on strike. First, as will soon be done, the union needs to get the approval of its members to authorize the union to strike should the need arise. If bargaining fails, the two sides can agree to federal mediation. If that fails, there’s usually a cooling off period and if there is still no tentative agreement in place, then the union can use the strike authorization vote to set a strike date. Each bargaining process can differ, but it certainly wouldn’t take years to strike from the date members agree to allow for the possibility of a strike.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

That frames my question for the OP. Under Canadian labor law, what has to happen between a pilot strike authorization vote and an actual strike? Anything at all in air transport?

While I’m no expert when it comes to our labour laws, it certainly wouldn’t be years before the pilots could go on strike. First, as will soon be done, the union needs to get the approval of its members to authorize the union to strike should the need arise. If bargaining fails, the two sides can agree to federal mediation. If that fails, there’s usually a cooling off period and if there is still no tentative agreement in place, then the union can use the strike authorization vote to set a strike date. Each bargaining process can differ, but it certainly wouldn’t take years to strike from the date members agree to allow for the possibility of a strike.

Thanks for that note. That is a process radically different from the U.S., where there is mediation, arbitration, and then the pilot union has to be released to strike by the National Mediation Board. IIRC, no major pilot union has been released to strike in the last ~19 years. They just go on with existing contracts years and years beyond the amendable date. The pilots' strike vote really just sets up a years-long process in the U.S.

goboeing wrote:

Kashmon wrote:

please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry
finally then actual resources will be diverted to R and D so all these pilots can be replaced....

Strike our way to unemployment!

The ironic thing about your very profound post is that the job of a pilot will be one of the last to be replaced by a robot/automation.

Do you think by the time the technology and infrastructure is in place [a long time from now] to have an airliner fly around the system by itself, that all the other comparatively menial** jobs out there won't have already been automated already?

What's going to be first, bank tellers, waiters, truck drivers and accountants . . . or 777 captains?

I think we all know the answer to that, and thus how far off your anti-labor pilot replacement pipe dream really is.

Until then, they'll keep using their labor laws to attempt to maintain or improve trivial things like healthcare benefits, retirement benefits, pay, and working conditions.




** By this I mean typical-day's-work, not importance of their profession itself or what it took to get there. I'm just talking about, "can a robot take their job?"

idjim319 wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

idjim319 wrote:

There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.

You say there are so many other professions that require MORE training/education with less salary but you fail to provide one example.
Social work services are being compared to an airline pilot? I have great respect for social work but that is completely a stretch.
I’m glad you feel happy about your salary level but I find it inappropriate for you to judge someone else’s salary level based on your comfort level. Are you just as upset at the executive management of WestJet as well? I’m fairly certain they don’t have nearly the level of responsibility in terms of life and death as the other examples you gave in your response.

With precision you demonstrate my point and reveal your own myopic and apparentl limited understand of how this world works. I know nothing about westjet management and it doesn't affect my opinion that 200k is a lot of money to bitch and moan about being hard done by. Try getting your masters if you don't like it.

goboeing wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

While I’m no expert when it comes to our labour laws, it certainly wouldn’t be years before the pilots could go on strike. First, as will soon be done, the union needs to get the approval of its members to authorize the union to strike should the need arise. If bargaining fails, the two sides can agree to federal mediation. If that fails, there’s usually a cooling off period and if there is still no tentative agreement in place, then the union can use the strike authorization vote to set a strike date. Each bargaining process can differ, but it certainly wouldn’t take years to strike from the date members agree to allow for the possibility of a strike.

Thanks for that note. That is a process radically different from the U.S., where there is mediation, arbitration, and then the pilot union has to be released to strike by the National Mediation Board. IIRC, no major pilot union has been released to strike in the last ~19 years. They just go on with existing contracts years and years beyond the amendable date. The pilots' strike vote really just sets up a years-long process in the U.S.

Spirit wasn't too long ago.

Kashmon wrote:

please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry

Kashmon wrote:

I have no idea what a bank teller is....

Kashmon wrote:

Truck drivers know they are going to be replaced

Kashmon wrote:

Think about it
a pilot in the 50's had to have a lot more skill and knowledge than a modern pilot....

Kashmon wrote:

Standard will change if Airlines divert more r and d into replacing these nutcases

Kashmon wrote:

if the incentive to replace a non stop striking pilot is greater
than that will be replaced first

bennett123 wrote:

Having negotiated for two years without a result this is hardly surprising.

Skywatcher wrote:

I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?

Kashmon wrote:

goboeing wrote:

Kashmon wrote:

please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry
finally then actual resources will be diverted to R and D so all these pilots can be replaced....

Strike our way to unemployment!

The ironic thing about your very profound post is that the job of a pilot will be one of the last to be replaced by a robot/automation.

Do you think by the time the technology and infrastructure is in place [a long time from now] to have an airliner fly around the system by itself, that all the other comparatively menial** jobs out there won't have already been automated already?

What's going to be first, bank tellers, waiters, truck drivers and accountants . . . or 777 captains?

I think we all know the answer to that, and thus how far off your anti-labor pilot replacement pipe dream really is.

Until then, they'll keep using their labor laws to attempt to maintain or improve trivial things like healthcare benefits, retirement benefits, pay, and working conditions.




** By this I mean typical-day's-work, not importance of their profession itself or what it took to get there. I'm just talking about, "can a robot take their job?"

no way
a Pilot will never be fully replaced EVER
but I can see everything being so much more simplified and AI controlled that it would take merely a month for Airlines to train new pilots....


Waiters will never be replaced- service role- service jobs will never be replaced by AI - Human connection is powerful
Accountants are already being replaced- why do you think so many accountants become house wives?
I have no idea what a bank teller is....

Truck drivers know they are going to be replaced

Think about it
a pilot in the 50's had to have a lot more skill and knowledge than a modern pilot....
Standard will change if Airlines divert more r and d into replacing these nutcases

Businesses actually do not mind keeping humans
but when humans keep striking you give businesses incentive to replace them...
and once a business has incentive there is no stopping the human innovative mind.

so even if a waiter job or a low skilled job is easier to replace with a machine
if the incentive to replace a non stop striking pilot is greater
than that will be replaced first

sixtyseven wrote:

Kashmon wrote:

goboeing wrote:

The ironic thing about your very profound post is that the job of a pilot will be one of the last to be replaced by a robot/automation.

Do you think by the time the technology and infrastructure is in place [a long time from now] to have an airliner fly around the system by itself, that all the other comparatively menial** jobs out there won't have already been automated already?

What's going to be first, bank tellers, waiters, truck drivers and accountants . . . or 777 captains?

I think we all know the answer to that, and thus how far off your anti-labor pilot replacement pipe dream really is.

Until then, they'll keep using their labor laws to attempt to maintain or improve trivial things like healthcare benefits, retirement benefits, pay, and working conditions.




** By this I mean typical-day's-work, not importance of their profession itself or what it took to get there. I'm just talking about, "can a robot take their job?"

no way
a Pilot will never be fully replaced EVER
but I can see everything being so much more simplified and AI controlled that it would take merely a month for Airlines to train new pilots....


Waiters will never be replaced- service role- service jobs will never be replaced by AI - Human connection is powerful
Accountants are already being replaced- why do you think so many accountants become house wives?
I have no idea what a bank teller is....

Truck drivers know they are going to be replaced

Think about it
a pilot in the 50's had to have a lot more skill and knowledge than a modern pilot....
Standard will change if Airlines divert more r and d into replacing these nutcases

Businesses actually do not mind keeping humans
but when humans keep striking you give businesses incentive to replace them...
and once a business has incentive there is no stopping the human innovative mind.

so even if a waiter job or a low skilled job is easier to replace with a machine
if the incentive to replace a non stop striking pilot is greater
than that will be replaced first

“Gump! You’re gonna be a fuc$ing general someday!!”

Whiteguy wrote:

bennett123 wrote:

Having negotiated for two years without a result this is hardly surprising.

It's been less than a year....