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Dominion301
Topic Author
Posts: 2895
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:05 pm

WS' pilots have yet to reach a collective agreement after voting to join ALPA about two years ago. Now ALPA are calling a vote to authorize a strike should contract talks continue to go nowhere.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/w ... 80251.html

10 years ago, who would've ever thought it'd be AC with all the labour peace as they announce preliminary WS strike contingency plans: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 44461.html

Air Canada today said it is ready to adjust its schedules and capacity to limit disruptions for the traveling public and to ensure that customers get to their destinations in the event of a labour disruption at WestJet.
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:09 pm

Good for the pilots. They’ve been hoodwinked for too long.

The airline can remain very successful with unions. It’s going to take awhile for both sides to learn to get along in the new relationship, but the Koolaid days are over.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:46 pm

I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?
 
deebee278
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:14 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:46 pm

I'll admit that I know nothing about Canadian labor laws but in the US, the Pilots wouldn't actually be anywhere near an actual strike. This is probably a show of solidarity. I know from experience that a strike could be perhaps years away, if ever. Cooler heads will prevail and everyone will work something out.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8785
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:00 pm

deebee278 wrote:
I'll admit that I know nothing about Canadian labor laws but in the US, the Pilots wouldn't actually be anywhere near an actual strike.


That frames my question for the OP. Under Canadian labor law, what has to happen between a pilot strike authorization vote and an actual strike? Anything at all in air transport?
 
goboeing
Posts: 2572
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:34 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?


Why don't you unionize?

Or why doesn't the 'management' unionize?

Seriously, what's the holdup?

Or are there reasons for it -- safety related, at the very foundation -- that result in the system being the way it is.
 
Kashmon
Posts: 642
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:08 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:38 pm

please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry
finally then actual resources will be diverted to R and D so all these pilots can be replaced....

Strike our way to unemployment!
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:10 am

Kashmon wrote:
please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry
finally then actual resources will be diverted to R and D so all these pilots can be replaced....

Strike our way to unemployment!


Hahahaha. Gooood waaaannnnn
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
COSPN
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:10 am

What does the pay amount have to do with a union ?? NFL players have a union and are paid many times more than pilots
 
1900Driver
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:06 am

Skywatcher wrote:
I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?


Stop manipulating the truth! The average pilot makes less then 200k. Give the amount of responsibilities they have, probably should be paid more.

Global scarcity for experienced crew is here, & it’s only a matter of time before they demand far more. Supply & demand.
 
idjim319
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:37 am

1900Driver wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?


Stop manipulating the truth! The average pilot makes less then 200k. Give the amount of responsibilities they have, probably should be paid more.

Global scarcity for experienced crew is here, & it’s only a matter of time before they demand far more. Supply & demand.


There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:56 am

idjim319 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?


Stop manipulating the truth! The average pilot makes less then 200k. Give the amount of responsibilities they have, probably should be paid more.

Global scarcity for experienced crew is here, & it’s only a matter of time before they demand far more. Supply & demand.


There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.


You say there are so many other professions that require MORE training/education with less salary but you fail to provide one example.
Social work services are being compared to an airline pilot? I have great respect for social work but that is completely a stretch.
I’m glad you feel happy about your salary level but I find it inappropriate for you to judge someone else’s salary level based on your comfort level. Are you just as upset at the executive management of WestJet as well? I’m fairly certain they don’t have nearly the level of responsibility in terms of life and death as the other examples you gave in your response.
 
idjim319
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:22 am

Planeboy17 wrote:
idjim319 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:

Stop manipulating the truth! The average pilot makes less then 200k. Give the amount of responsibilities they have, probably should be paid more.

Global scarcity for experienced crew is here, & it’s only a matter of time before they demand far more. Supply & demand.


There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.


You say there are so many other professions that require MORE training/education with less salary but you fail to provide one example.
Social work services are being compared to an airline pilot? I have great respect for social work but that is completely a stretch.
I’m glad you feel happy about your salary level but I find it inappropriate for you to judge someone else’s salary level based on your comfort level. Are you just as upset at the executive management of WestJet as well? I’m fairly certain they don’t have nearly the level of responsibility in terms of life and death as the other examples you gave in your response.


With precision you demonstrate my point and reveal your own myopic and apparentl limited understand of how this world works. I know nothing about westjet management and it doesn't affect my opinion that 200k is a lot of money to bitch and moan about being hard done by. Try getting your masters if you don't like it.
 
idjim319
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:52 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:23 am

idjim319 wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
idjim319 wrote:

There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.


You say there are so many other professions that require MORE training/education with less salary but you fail to provide one example.
Social work services are being compared to an airline pilot? I have great respect for social work but that is completely a stretch.
I’m glad you feel happy about your salary level but I find it inappropriate for you to judge someone else’s salary level based on your comfort level. Are you just as upset at the executive management of WestJet as well? I’m fairly certain they don’t have nearly the level of responsibility in terms of life and death as the other examples you gave in your response.


With precision you demonstrate my point and reveal your own myopic and apparent limited understand of how this world works. I know nothing about westjet management and it doesn't affect my opinion that 200k is a lot of money to bitch and moan about being hard done by. Try getting your masters if you don't like it.
 
Dominion301
Topic Author
Posts: 2895
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:55 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
deebee278 wrote:
I'll admit that I know nothing about Canadian labor laws but in the US, the Pilots wouldn't actually be anywhere near an actual strike.


That frames my question for the OP. Under Canadian labor law, what has to happen between a pilot strike authorization vote and an actual strike? Anything at all in air transport?


While I’m no expert when it comes to our labour laws, it certainly wouldn’t be years before the pilots could go on strike. First, as will soon be done, the union needs to get the approval of its members to authorize the union to strike should the need arise. If bargaining fails, the two sides can agree to federal mediation. If that fails, there’s usually a cooling off period and if there is still no tentative agreement in place, then the union can use the strike authorization vote to set a strike date. Each bargaining process can differ, but it certainly wouldn’t take years to strike from the date members agree to allow for the possibility of a strike.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:32 am

The 60 day conciliation period ended today, now the 21 day cooling off period begins. Strike can be called with 72 hrs, earliest date May 19th. Hopefully it doesn't get to that...
 
goboeing
Posts: 2572
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:11 am

Kashmon wrote:
please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry
finally then actual resources will be diverted to R and D so all these pilots can be replaced....

Strike our way to unemployment!


The ironic thing about your very profound post is that the job of a pilot will be one of the last to be replaced by a robot/automation.

Do you think by the time the technology and infrastructure is in place [a long time from now] to have an airliner fly around the system by itself, that all the other comparatively menial** jobs out there won't have already been automated already?

What's going to be first, bank tellers, waiters, truck drivers and accountants . . . or 777 captains?

I think we all know the answer to that, and thus how far off your anti-labor pilot replacement pipe dream really is.

Until then, they'll keep using their labor laws to attempt to maintain or improve trivial things like healthcare benefits, retirement benefits, pay, and working conditions.




** By this I mean typical-day's-work, not importance of their profession itself or what it took to get there. I'm just talking about, "can a robot take their job?"
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4901
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:19 am

idjim319 wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
Skywatcher wrote:
I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?


Stop manipulating the truth! The average pilot makes less then 200k. Give the amount of responsibilities they have, probably should be paid more.

Global scarcity for experienced crew is here, & it’s only a matter of time before they demand far more. Supply & demand.


There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.


And those people deserve higher wages too. Just because one is in favour of higher wages for one group, doesnt mean that you cant be in favour of other groups receiving raises too.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10416
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:50 am

Having negotiated for two years without a result this is hardly surprising.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8785
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:20 am

Dominion301 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
deebee278 wrote:
I'll admit that I know nothing about Canadian labor laws but in the US, the Pilots wouldn't actually be anywhere near an actual strike.


That frames my question for the OP. Under Canadian labor law, what has to happen between a pilot strike authorization vote and an actual strike? Anything at all in air transport?


While I’m no expert when it comes to our labour laws, it certainly wouldn’t be years before the pilots could go on strike. First, as will soon be done, the union needs to get the approval of its members to authorize the union to strike should the need arise. If bargaining fails, the two sides can agree to federal mediation. If that fails, there’s usually a cooling off period and if there is still no tentative agreement in place, then the union can use the strike authorization vote to set a strike date. Each bargaining process can differ, but it certainly wouldn’t take years to strike from the date members agree to allow for the possibility of a strike.


Thanks for that note. That is a process radically different from the U.S., where there is mediation, arbitration, and then the pilot union has to be released to strike by the National Mediation Board. IIRC, no major pilot union has been released to strike in the last ~19 years. They just go on with existing contracts years and years beyond the amendable date. The pilots' strike vote really just sets up a years-long process in the U.S.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2572
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:36 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That frames my question for the OP. Under Canadian labor law, what has to happen between a pilot strike authorization vote and an actual strike? Anything at all in air transport?


While I’m no expert when it comes to our labour laws, it certainly wouldn’t be years before the pilots could go on strike. First, as will soon be done, the union needs to get the approval of its members to authorize the union to strike should the need arise. If bargaining fails, the two sides can agree to federal mediation. If that fails, there’s usually a cooling off period and if there is still no tentative agreement in place, then the union can use the strike authorization vote to set a strike date. Each bargaining process can differ, but it certainly wouldn’t take years to strike from the date members agree to allow for the possibility of a strike.


Thanks for that note. That is a process radically different from the U.S., where there is mediation, arbitration, and then the pilot union has to be released to strike by the National Mediation Board. IIRC, no major pilot union has been released to strike in the last ~19 years. They just go on with existing contracts years and years beyond the amendable date. The pilots' strike vote really just sets up a years-long process in the U.S.


Spirit wasn't too long ago.
 
Kashmon
Posts: 642
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:08 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:13 pm

goboeing wrote:
Kashmon wrote:
please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry
finally then actual resources will be diverted to R and D so all these pilots can be replaced....

Strike our way to unemployment!


The ironic thing about your very profound post is that the job of a pilot will be one of the last to be replaced by a robot/automation.

Do you think by the time the technology and infrastructure is in place [a long time from now] to have an airliner fly around the system by itself, that all the other comparatively menial** jobs out there won't have already been automated already?

What's going to be first, bank tellers, waiters, truck drivers and accountants . . . or 777 captains?

I think we all know the answer to that, and thus how far off your anti-labor pilot replacement pipe dream really is.

Until then, they'll keep using their labor laws to attempt to maintain or improve trivial things like healthcare benefits, retirement benefits, pay, and working conditions.




** By this I mean typical-day's-work, not importance of their profession itself or what it took to get there. I'm just talking about, "can a robot take their job?"


no way
a Pilot will never be fully replaced EVER
but I can see everything being so much more simplified and AI controlled that it would take merely a month for Airlines to train new pilots....


Waiters will never be replaced- service role- service jobs will never be replaced by AI - Human connection is powerful
Accountants are already being replaced- why do you think so many accountants become house wives?
I have no idea what a bank teller is....

Truck drivers know they are going to be replaced

Think about it
a pilot in the 50's had to have a lot more skill and knowledge than a modern pilot....
Standard will change if Airlines divert more r and d into replacing these nutcases

Businesses actually do not mind keeping humans
but when humans keep striking you give businesses incentive to replace them...
and once a business has incentive there is no stopping the human innovative mind.

so even if a waiter job or a low skilled job is easier to replace with a machine
if the incentive to replace a non stop striking pilot is greater
than that will be replaced first
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:29 pm

idjim319 wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
idjim319 wrote:

There are so many jobs that require a lot more training/education that don't even come close to a salary like that. And yes, many people have responsibilities that are life and death....for providing safe drinking water, for rescuing people from bus crashes, fighting terrorists, providing social work services to those in need..... And many people have much more education and have spent a lot more time and money to get the training necessary to do their jobs. I've worked in the airline industry and know it is challenging. I chose to leave as can anyone else. I also have 8 years of university education and make exactly 1/2 and feel thankful.

So with a nod to those good pilots in your chosen career I'm glad you enjoy what you do; however, please don't tell me 200K is a hardship to fly a 737. Many other people in this world work very hard for A LOT less.


You say there are so many other professions that require MORE training/education with less salary but you fail to provide one example.
Social work services are being compared to an airline pilot? I have great respect for social work but that is completely a stretch.
I’m glad you feel happy about your salary level but I find it inappropriate for you to judge someone else’s salary level based on your comfort level. Are you just as upset at the executive management of WestJet as well? I’m fairly certain they don’t have nearly the level of responsibility in terms of life and death as the other examples you gave in your response.


With precision you demonstrate my point and reveal your own myopic and apparentl limited understand of how this world works. I know nothing about westjet management and it doesn't affect my opinion that 200k is a lot of money to bitch and moan about being hard done by. Try getting your masters if you don't like it.


Huh? Once again you use pure opinion with no basis of factual data. You claim nobody should bitch and moan about 200,000 dollars. Ok, so what is the salary line to complain at? 50,000, 100,000, 125,000? What is it?
You say you don’t know anything about WS management but what exactly do you know about WS pilots?
Do you know the time and experience and expense necessary to achieve a CPL( Canadian Pilot License)?
Do you also complain about other professions that try establish higher salaries?
Do you believe socialism is a good model to follow instead?
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:12 pm

Alsmost no one other than pilots have the control over 100’s of lives in a hostile environment, the sky, with a limited amout of time to come with solutions. In charge of extremely expensive equipment and priceless lives. While the clock is ticking (fuel).

A cruise ship captain can stop the ship.

What the Hudson captain did was priceless.
His salary should have been 200.000.000$ a year.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8785
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:35 pm

goboeing wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

While I’m no expert when it comes to our labour laws, it certainly wouldn’t be years before the pilots could go on strike. First, as will soon be done, the union needs to get the approval of its members to authorize the union to strike should the need arise. If bargaining fails, the two sides can agree to federal mediation. If that fails, there’s usually a cooling off period and if there is still no tentative agreement in place, then the union can use the strike authorization vote to set a strike date. Each bargaining process can differ, but it certainly wouldn’t take years to strike from the date members agree to allow for the possibility of a strike.


Thanks for that note. That is a process radically different from the U.S., where there is mediation, arbitration, and then the pilot union has to be released to strike by the National Mediation Board. IIRC, no major pilot union has been released to strike in the last ~19 years. They just go on with existing contracts years and years beyond the amendable date. The pilots' strike vote really just sets up a years-long process in the U.S.


Spirit wasn't too long ago.


True, but I don't think of Spirit as a major. It doesn't represent a meaningful increment of passenger capacity across the U.S. system. Clinton immediately intervened to stop the AA strike in 1997 but let NW pilots carry out a 15 day strike on 1998.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2572
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:05 pm

Kashmon wrote:
please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry


"Keep striking."

When was the last Canadian pilot strike?

Or to use a nearby neighbor, the last US pilot strike?



Kashmon wrote:
I have no idea what a bank teller is....


Sorry about that, I figured you'd know.

A bank teller is a person who works in a bank behind the counter, doing transactions such as deposits, withdrawals, bank checks, certified checks, foreign currency exchange, and so forth.

Many functions of a bank teller are already available in an ATM, hence my inclusion of their vocation on that list of examples.

A far cry from a job that is about getting an airplane from a gate to another gate a few hundred or thousand miles away.

Kashmon wrote:
Truck drivers know they are going to be replaced


That's also why I included it on my list of example jobs that will eventually be automated.

Kashmon wrote:
Think about it
a pilot in the 50's had to have a lot more skill and knowledge than a modern pilot....


Well, I thought about it.

You are completely wrong.

A pilot in the 50s had a higher workload to the point of a crew of three being the standard. They were pulling out charts and turning VORs to radials which we can now see on an iPad and on our navigation display. But the knowledge is still there, as is the skill. And if you were in the jumpseat for an autoland that my jet was attempting last year before we intervened, you'd realize "the computer" doesn't always get it right either.


Kashmon wrote:
Standard will change if Airlines divert more r and d into replacing these nutcases


Nutcases?

Are all airline pilots are nutcases?

Kashmon wrote:
if the incentive to replace a non stop striking pilot is greater
than that will be replaced first


Non-stop striking pilot?

When was the last time the WestJet pilots went on strike?

Follow up question: when was the last time (and duration) of any pilots in Canada going on strike?
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2990
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:09 pm

Ironic that almost 20 years since AC pilots went on strike - September 1998. Don't know what contingency plans AC has if WS did go on strike.

- Delay retirement of 767s for needed extra capacity?
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:11 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Having negotiated for two years without a result this is hardly surprising.


It's been less than a year....
 
N353SK
Posts: 1023
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:57 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I've always had trouble coming to terms with unionized pilots, some of whom earn in excess of 200k per year.

They want to be the "manager" of their aircraft but benefit from union tactics at the same time. If pilots aren't prototypical "management" who is?

I hope they give up any stock options/bonuses/profit sharing/management perks as part of the process. Double standard?



Pilots do not have the authority to hire, fire, or discipline other employees. Pilots do not decide where or when the aircraft flies, how much airfares should cost, whether or not to acquire new aircraft, or how to finance them. Pilots show up to move an aircraft from X to Y and then they go home. They are not expected to answer emails or phone calls on Saturdays, and if they are asked to stay late they receive additional compensation for it. In the USA and Canada, are paid hourly. Pilots are laborers.

A much more prototypical "management" type would be the chief pilots of an airline. They participate in job interviews, discipline bad eggs, and of course occasionally fire people. They work extra hours to cover open flights (without extra pay at some airlines), and they take turns being the "on-call chief pilot" on nights and weekends to handle issues that arise outside of business hours. Chief pilots are paid an annual salary.
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:48 am

Kashmon wrote:
goboeing wrote:
Kashmon wrote:
please strike
I hope these nitwits keep striking across the industry
finally then actual resources will be diverted to R and D so all these pilots can be replaced....

Strike our way to unemployment!


The ironic thing about your very profound post is that the job of a pilot will be one of the last to be replaced by a robot/automation.

Do you think by the time the technology and infrastructure is in place [a long time from now] to have an airliner fly around the system by itself, that all the other comparatively menial** jobs out there won't have already been automated already?

What's going to be first, bank tellers, waiters, truck drivers and accountants . . . or 777 captains?

I think we all know the answer to that, and thus how far off your anti-labor pilot replacement pipe dream really is.

Until then, they'll keep using their labor laws to attempt to maintain or improve trivial things like healthcare benefits, retirement benefits, pay, and working conditions.




** By this I mean typical-day's-work, not importance of their profession itself or what it took to get there. I'm just talking about, "can a robot take their job?"


no way
a Pilot will never be fully replaced EVER
but I can see everything being so much more simplified and AI controlled that it would take merely a month for Airlines to train new pilots....


Waiters will never be replaced- service role- service jobs will never be replaced by AI - Human connection is powerful
Accountants are already being replaced- why do you think so many accountants become house wives?
I have no idea what a bank teller is....

Truck drivers know they are going to be replaced

Think about it
a pilot in the 50's had to have a lot more skill and knowledge than a modern pilot....
Standard will change if Airlines divert more r and d into replacing these nutcases

Businesses actually do not mind keeping humans
but when humans keep striking you give businesses incentive to replace them...
and once a business has incentive there is no stopping the human innovative mind.

so even if a waiter job or a low skilled job is easier to replace with a machine
if the incentive to replace a non stop striking pilot is greater
than that will be replaced first


“Gump! You’re gonna be a fuc$ing general someday!!”
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:05 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
Kashmon wrote:
goboeing wrote:

The ironic thing about your very profound post is that the job of a pilot will be one of the last to be replaced by a robot/automation.

Do you think by the time the technology and infrastructure is in place [a long time from now] to have an airliner fly around the system by itself, that all the other comparatively menial** jobs out there won't have already been automated already?

What's going to be first, bank tellers, waiters, truck drivers and accountants . . . or 777 captains?

I think we all know the answer to that, and thus how far off your anti-labor pilot replacement pipe dream really is.

Until then, they'll keep using their labor laws to attempt to maintain or improve trivial things like healthcare benefits, retirement benefits, pay, and working conditions.




** By this I mean typical-day's-work, not importance of their profession itself or what it took to get there. I'm just talking about, "can a robot take their job?"


no way
a Pilot will never be fully replaced EVER
but I can see everything being so much more simplified and AI controlled that it would take merely a month for Airlines to train new pilots....


Waiters will never be replaced- service role- service jobs will never be replaced by AI - Human connection is powerful
Accountants are already being replaced- why do you think so many accountants become house wives?
I have no idea what a bank teller is....

Truck drivers know they are going to be replaced

Think about it
a pilot in the 50's had to have a lot more skill and knowledge than a modern pilot....
Standard will change if Airlines divert more r and d into replacing these nutcases

Businesses actually do not mind keeping humans
but when humans keep striking you give businesses incentive to replace them...
and once a business has incentive there is no stopping the human innovative mind.

so even if a waiter job or a low skilled job is easier to replace with a machine
if the incentive to replace a non stop striking pilot is greater
than that will be replaced first


“Gump! You’re gonna be a fuc$ing general someday!!”

Only here will you find remarks as far out in left field as Kashmon’s especially when it comes to the pilot union subject!
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
Dominion301
Topic Author
Posts: 2895
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: WestJet Pilots Getting Close to Going on Strike

Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:41 am

Whiteguy wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Having negotiated for two years without a result this is hardly surprising.


It's been less than a year....


True but I think management’s antics with Swoop were the last straw. Maybe the new guy is Saretsky 2.0?

Timeline of events: http://www.alpa.org/wja

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