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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:49 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Literally a week ago I lost someone very close. The hospital were very upfront about taking responsibility for things not going to plan, yet the family were equally upfront about not blaming them for what was clearly unpredicted and unintentional. Suing the hospital would not bring the person back and seemed morally the wrong thing to do, even though we'd probably have a strong case.


Disagreed. Disagreed *strongly*.

And you know why? I might be the next patient in that hospital. You might, too. And if the hospital couldn't follow standard procedures with its previous patient, it probably won't with the next.


Wow!

You know literally *NOTHING* of the circumstances of *MY GRIEF* and *MY OPINION/DECISION*, yet you feel self-centred enough to actually criticise it?

Wow!

(I mean: "standard procedures" - nope, "couldn't follow" - nope. Need I go on?)
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WingsOfLove
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:59 am

AA has the reports of all crew members, exact times of communications, exact location of the plane and records of its decision making. AA has facts.

The plaintiffs (parents) were not on board. The court filed "facts" is the recollection of what their son-in-law saw, heard, was told, therefor "believes". A lot of guessing and assumptions.
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:20 pm

USAirKid wrote:

I'm not just saying the medical professionals, but everyone who responded to this tragedy. (Dispatchers, Flight Attendants, Pilots, etc.) And given that there were likely more than four people involved in responding to this incident, statistically over half of them have some implicit biases. "Most white Americans, the majority of white Americans, about two-thirds to three-quarters, have the unconscious, implicit, racial biases." - John Dovidio, PhD, a professor of psychology and public health at Yale University. http://www.apa.org/research/action/spea ... iases.aspx


You still haven't provided any evidence that racial bias played any part in THIS incident with THESE PARTICULAR responders. All you present is a biased generalization about people. For all your pontificating, all you have is an unproven theory based on unproven supposition.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:13 pm

Thanks, Waterbomber.

I took so much abuse over the ladder truck suggestion that I was beginning to think I was crazy.

The sad part is the dispatcher's story of how it took an hour for rescuers to get onto "his" aircraft because of the ten-foot gap between the jetbridge edge and the open L1 door. I think that that passenger's death was the result of a failure of imagination. OTOH, he did indicate that his airline didn't have MedLink, and MedLink does take responsibility for coordinating the emergency response at the diversion airport. Maybe somebody at MedAire has heard of a ladder truck.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:24 pm

WingsOfLove wrote:
AA has the reports of all crew members, exact times of communications, exact location of the plane and records of its decision making. AA has facts.

The plaintiffs (parents) were not on board. The court filed "facts" is the recollection of what their son-in-law saw, heard, was told, therefor "believes". A lot of guessing and assumptions.


It is true that AA may have CVR, FDR and tapes of communication with company, MedLink and ATC. Beyond that, all they have is "recollections of what their staff saw, heard and was told". Because that's all reports are. The Plaintiff has plenty of "facts", including the testimony of the doctor who tried to save the young woman and was rebuffed, and passengers, all of whom were right there and saw what was happening to the woman.

The Plaintiff's story is going to be the decedent's story. The AA story is going to be all about policies, procedures and "best practices". Oy. Like I said, if they actually try to ride in on the "we didn't land because we didn't know how to get her off the aircraft" excuse, in voir dire one of the first things I would do is ask the prospective jurors if anybody has any suggestions about how rescuers could get to an open door X feet above the ground. After I got 20 raised hands and 20 suggestions from prospective jurors -- one of which would be "ladder fire truck", the case would be a lot closer to resolution. Of course, the plaintiffs filed in Federal court in South Carolina, so, unlike in Texas state court, I probably wouldn't be allowed to do so. (Federal court doesn't have the wide-open voir dire that Texas has.)
 
D L X
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:46 pm

wjcandee wrote:
WingsOfLove wrote:
AA has the reports of all crew members, exact times of communications, exact location of the plane and records of its decision making. AA has facts.

The plaintiffs (parents) were not on board. The court filed "facts" is the recollection of what their son-in-law saw, heard, was told, therefor "believes". A lot of guessing and assumptions.


It is true that AA may have CVR, FDR and tapes of communication with company, MedLink and ATC. Beyond that, all they have is "recollections of what their staff saw, heard and was told". Because that's all reports are. The Plaintiff has plenty of "facts", including the testimony of the doctor who tried to save the young woman and was rebuffed, and passengers, all of whom were right there and saw what was happening to the woman.

The Plaintiff's story is going to be the decedent's story. The AA story is going to be all about policies, procedures and "best practices". Oy. Like I said, if they actually try to ride in on the "we didn't land because we didn't know how to get her off the aircraft" excuse, in voir dire one of the first things I would do is ask the prospective jurors if anybody has any suggestions about how rescuers could get to an open door X feet above the ground. After I got 20 raised hands and 20 suggestions from prospective jurors -- one of which would be "ladder fire truck", the case would be a lot closer to resolution. Of course, the plaintiffs filed in Federal court in South Carolina, so, unlike in Texas state court, I probably wouldn't be allowed to do so. (Federal court doesn't have the wide-open voir dire that Texas has.)

1) this isn’t ever going to go to trial, and I doubt it will even see discovery.
2) AA if it decides to fight, would have a field day on the timeline presented in the complaint. They’ve successfully plead the case, but that only gets them in the doors of the courthouse. They are not close to anything resembling an air-right timeline.

This thread has mostly bought the line that they were over Albuquerque when the patient began to deteriorate and the doctor-passenger recommended diversion. I think people should be more critical of that allegation.
 
D L X
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:48 pm

FWIW, I thought about the racial element when I first read the report, but I didn’t bring it up because a.net blows a gasket when someone mentions race. And if you’re in disagreement with that statement, you’re probably one of the culprits.
 
YYZatcboy
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:57 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Thanks, Waterbomber.

I took so much abuse over the ladder truck suggestion that I was beginning to think I was crazy.

The sad part is the dispatcher's story of how it took an hour for rescuers to get onto "his" aircraft because of the ten-foot gap between the jetbridge edge and the open L1 door. I think that that passenger's death was the result of a failure of imagination. OTOH, he did indicate that his airline didn't have MedLink, and MedLink does take responsibility for coordinating the emergency response at the diversion airport. Maybe somebody at MedAire has heard of a ladder truck.


I asked MCO if they could use a fire truck to get onboard, or a ladder to bridge the gap. They said they were not trained or allowed to do this for medical emergencies for whatever reason, perhaps the airport ARFF decided not to respond and only sent an ambulance, I could never get a straight answer. Tower also asked another airline that was pushing back to have their CSA run over to operate the jetbridge, but they would not pull one up for an airline they were not trained for. I was personally coordinating this emergency, and I had no failure of imagination. Incidentally the passenger was dead long before they got on the ground, but my crew and I never gave up on him, and it was traumatic for all of us.
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wjcandee
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:08 pm

YYZatcboy wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Thanks, Waterbomber.

I took so much abuse over the ladder truck suggestion that I was beginning to think I was crazy.

The sad part is the dispatcher's story of how it took an hour for rescuers to get onto "his" aircraft because of the ten-foot gap between the jetbridge edge and the open L1 door. I think that that passenger's death was the result of a failure of imagination. OTOH, he did indicate that his airline didn't have MedLink, and MedLink does take responsibility for coordinating the emergency response at the diversion airport. Maybe somebody at MedAire has heard of a ladder truck.


I asked MCO if they could use a fire truck to get onboard, or a ladder to bridge the gap. They said they were not trained or allowed to do this for medical emergencies for whatever reason, perhaps the airport ARFF decided not to respond and only sent an ambulance, I could never get a straight answer. Tower also asked another airline that was pushing back to have their CSA run over to operate the jetbridge, but they would not pull one up for an airline they were not trained for. I was personally coordinating this emergency, and I had no failure of imagination. Incidentally the passenger was dead long before they got on the ground, but my crew and I never gave up on him, and it was traumatic for all of us.


Sad and tragic incident. I didn't mean to imply that it was your failure of imagination; I was thinking of the people who were standing there ten feet away and doing nothing to help. "Not my job." Yikes. "Too dangerous to use a ladder." Wow. Now, see, if that person's family had filed a lawsuit, maybe somebody would have trained the emergency responders at that airport how to bridge a ten-foot gap. Because that response should be embarrassing to whomever is in charge of that emergency response crew, and sometimes it takes the bright glare of a lawsuit for management to realize what actually happens in the field.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:14 pm

D L X wrote:
AA if it decides to fight, would have a field day on the timeline presented in the complaint.


Well, it's the best story whatever plaintiff's law firm could put together from the facts they had.

Unless it's a verified complaint, I don't think it matters much whether it is accurate in every detail. No doubt discovery is going to generate a pretty-detailed timeline from evidence solely in the possession of AA and/or the gov't. At least in the jurisdictions in which I practice, any variance between the complaint and the case you want to bring to trial can be handled by a motion to conform the pleadings to the proof or an amendment after disclosure is complete.

And I agree that this case likely won't go to trial. And that even if it did, the "we wouldn't have been able to get on the plane" defense isn't going to be used. Just taking the silliness to its logical extension, which was fun because I love in voir dire to have one or more "Can anybody think of..." questions where the jury panel will by themselves blow holes in the other side's position before we've even had opening statements...

Juries bring the power of common sense, and I like to try to get them applying their common sense as early as possible.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:03 pm

wjcandee wrote:
"Too dangerous to use a ladder." Wow. Now, see, if that person's family had filed a lawsuit, maybe somebody would have trained the emergency responders at that airport how to bridge a ten-foot gap.


Or, if the critically-ill person falls or is accidentally dropped ten feet from a ladder headfirst onto the ramp and instead dies from head trauma completely unrelated to the illness they were suffering from....

Well, you get the idea.
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wjcandee
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:18 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
"Too dangerous to use a ladder." Wow. Now, see, if that person's family had filed a lawsuit, maybe somebody would have trained the emergency responders at that airport how to bridge a ten-foot gap.


Or, if the critically-ill person falls or is accidentally dropped ten feet from a ladder headfirst onto the ramp and instead dies from head trauma completely unrelated to the illness they were suffering from....

Well, you get the idea.


I understand that concept, but I would be very sad to hear that that's how first responders work these days...they let concerns about liability keep them from rendering aid. Let the person die because we're not allowed to use a ladder? When I saw an off-duty firefighter here in NYC run up a fire escape outside that gas-explosion building two years ago, and bring people out at big peril to himself and some peril to them, I thought that's how it worked everywhere -- as DocLightning said earlier in the thread, essentially, "Take care of the patient and everything else will be okay." (And, for complete accuracy, I think that guy was a Nassau County firefighter who was having lunch here in the City.)
 
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:36 pm

wjcandee wrote:
as DocLightning said earlier in the thread, essentially, "Take care of the patient and everything else will be okay."


But first, do no harm.
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TSS
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:11 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
TSS wrote:
2. While it can be reasonably assumed that the pilot had no formal medical training, it can also be reasonably assumed that the doctor had no formal training in the operation of a large passenger jet and therefore that the doctor was not qualified to determine the most time-efficient method of getting the patient to an appropriate medical facility.


Did the doctor take his SATs? Because you don't need to go to flight school to understand that there's a time difference between an airport 100 miles away and one 800 miles away.


This is the most accurate timeline we have:

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
The doctor on board initially believed Brittany was suffering a panic attack. I shall resist the temptation to query if the passenger-doctor should have made a better diagnosis - we have the benefit of hindsight, and that is an unfair advantage.

Time passes. "Between one to three hours later, while the flight was over or near Alburquerque..." - this bit sounds rather vague.
It was also stated that this equated to being 1½-2hrs out from DFW.
Meanwhile, Brittany has just made her way to a middle toilet, and after a short time collapses in the toilet. The FAs are called, attend Brittany, fetch the Doctor/passenger again, and fetch the medical kit. It is now that the Doctor/passenger suggests the plane is diverted, but by my guess another 10-15 minutes has passed, leaving the aircraft possibly just 1hr15mins from it's scheduled arrival at DFW, presumably even less if the flight was running ahead of schedule due to tailwinds. In fact the submission states the pilots were only appraised of this situation some 30 minutes into this new event, and the Captain called the doctor to the cockpit. (Yes, that is what it says - the passenger entered the cockpit!). By the time the doctor has reached the cockpit and spoken to the Captain, we must be looking at nearer 40 minutes, and DFW is less than an hour away.

There is now a conversation between the on-board passenger-doctor, and the ground-based physician on call for AA. The Captain finally takes advice from one or both of the doctors, and decides to continue to DFW. Whereas my running clock has left us with less than an hour to DFW, the legal submission now suggests there is still 90 minutes flight time. I confess I have a problem with their math.

Either way, five minutes after this, Brittany stops breathing and shows no pulse.

The failure of the medical equipment is a serious issue.
The choice not to divert the aircraft is much more open to debate.
Presumably AA will have a more accurate log of what happened when, particularly in respect of the timing of calls to their ground-based doctor.


According to SheikhDjibouti's math, with which I can find no fault, the aircraft would have been very near if not just past the halfway mark between ABQ and DFW, not "100 miles away (from ABQ) and 800 miles away (from DFW)", in which case continuing on to DFW made perfect sense.

If you have a more verifiably accurate timeline of events than the one presented by SheikhDjibouti, please do share it.
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AirKevin
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:22 pm

TSS wrote:
According to SheikhDjibouti's math, with which I can find no fault, the aircraft would have been very near if not just past the halfway mark between ABQ and DFW, not "100 miles away (from ABQ) and 800 miles away (from DFW)", in which case continuing on to DFW made perfect sense.

Incidentally, a quick check of the Great Circle Mapper shows ABQ and DFW as being 569 miles away from each other.

On another note, for anyone still questioning the decision to divert or continue, here's one for you. Back in December of 2015, I was on a flight from Orlando headed to Newark. We were just passing Philadelphia (I had a clear view of PHL) when a medical emergency occurred on board the flight. Do you:

A. Make a 270-degree turn and head down towards Philadelphia.
B. Continue on to Newark.
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HeyHey
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:40 pm

I am board certified in emergency medicine and thought I would opine about how difficult a situation such as this truly is and share some of my thoughts.

I would not feel comfortable advising whether a plane should divert or not. I can advise the pilot or crew on my suspicions of a serious emergency happening and the urgency of getting medical care, but I can't tell them that the plane should divert. I would have a decent idea about the risk of a person having a true medical emergency, but I have no concept of the risks, expense, or unforeseen ramifications of diverting an airplane. Since I don't have an idea of the magnitude on both sides of the equation (the patient and the plane) I don't think I could make an informed decision in regards to diverting. I seriously doubt that the physician on board could make an informed decision in regards to diversion as well. They could advise that the patient is critical and needs medical care ASAP, but that is different than saying, "this plane needs to divert."

Secondly, the case likely will not be successful unless they can prove the equipment was not maintained properly. The fact that the AED didn't administer a shock tells us nothing about whether it was working or now. We only defibrillate (shock) certain cardiac rhythms (ventricular tachycardia or ventricular fibrillation), and if the patient is in another rhythm (specifically PEA or asystole) then there is no role for a shock. Furthermore, just because someone died doesn't mean that there was negligence. Out of hospital cardiac arrest has a dismal prognosis even when someone is on the ground and received care in an expedited manor. The fact that they were at 30,000 feet and a minimum of an hour from a hospital (from landing to unloading to EMS transport) would only make the survival chance that much more dismal. Something with such a dismal outcome is going to be hard to prove that their negligence led to harm.
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:59 pm

HeyHey wrote:
just because someone died doesn't mean that there was negligence


Amen! RIP Brittany.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:30 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Literally a week ago I lost someone very close. The hospital were very upfront about taking responsibility for things not going to plan, yet the family were equally upfront about not blaming them for what was clearly unpredicted and unintentional. Suing the hospital would not bring the person back and seemed morally the wrong thing to do, even though we'd probably have a strong case.


Disagreed. Disagreed *strongly*.

And you know why? I might be the next patient in that hospital. You might, too. And if the hospital couldn't follow standard procedures with its previous patient, it probably won't with the next.


You know literally *NOTHING* of the circumstances of *MY GRIEF* and *MY OPINION/DECISION*, yet you feel self-centred enough to actually criticise it? (I mean: "standard procedures" - nope, "couldn't follow" - nope. Need I go on?)


First off, I am sorry for your loss.

Second, that doesn't change the fact that when you use personal experience ("MY OPINION") to weigh in on a public policy matter, you open the door to subjecting that personal experience to the same scrutiny that every other policy argument gets.

Tort law exists to compensate victims, yes, but it also exists to incentivize people to make prudent risk management decisions. That's why punitive damages get awarded on top of actual damages: to alter a company's risk-reward calculus.

I've spent much of my career in emerging markets that lack the common law tradition of tort law. Many of them have atrocious risk management practices. There's a reason why flying in the former Soviet Union or Africa is statically more dangerous than flying in the West. Western airlines know that if they cut corners, as AA may have done here, they'll get sued in a way that hurts. If a Western pilot lets his son helm the plane, or doesn't know how to do a go-around, or isn't licensed to fly that 737, that pilot's employer is in for a world of hurt -- assuming, of course, victims are willing to sue. In my book, a system that incentivizes compliance is a good thing.

So yes, I see no justification for a smug attitude that says "we admit this hospital was negligent and liable in tort, but we felt morally uncomfortable suing them." If the hospital makes the same mistake twice, someone else is going to experience their own grief.

Third, on "standard practice," that tends to be the way plaintiffs' lawyers prove medical malpractice.
 
Bigstud69
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:33 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
loalq wrote:

It has NOTHING, NOTHING to do with race and you are being extremely insensitive to the deceased!


all it means is that white passengers at in the same boat as black passengers, i.e., the won't be taken seriously by airline personnel if they get sick on a plane.


Nonsense there is no evidence of that and all the people bringing up race are enabling oppression delusion.
 
Gatorman96
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:46 am

wjcandee wrote:
That's actually incorrect. I asked a question. And a.net freaked out.

wjcandee wrote:
I wonder how much race played into this as well. The victim was a young, educated and sophisticated African-American woman.
The initial thought of the FAs was apparently that the reason she was having diff breathing was that she was having a panic attack.


I see no question, do you? I have no issue discussing race, but your argument is fundamentally flawed from the start because, again, the FAs did not diagnose the passenger with a panic attack. They paged a medical professional who diagnosed the passenger with a panic attack. This was the same doctor that later attended to the passenger after she fainted in the lav. If you choose to inject race into a discussion where there has been no evidence that race played into the actions of anyone involved in this event, at least have your facts straight.
 
Jetty
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:34 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
There's a reason why flying in the former Soviet Union or Africa is statically more dangerous than flying in the West. Western airlines know that if they cut corners, as AA may have done here, they'll get sued in a way that hurts. If a Western pilot lets his son helm the plane, or doesn't know how to do a go-around, or isn't licensed to fly that 737, that pilot's employer is in for a world of hurt -- assuming, of course, victims are willing to sue. In my book, a system that incentivizes compliance is a good thing.

So yes, I see no justification for a smug attitude that says "we admit this hospital was negligent and liable in tort, but we felt morally uncomfortable suing them." If the hospital makes the same mistake twice, someone else is going to experience their own grief.

There's also a reason why the USA has by far the worst healthcare per $ spend, and it's partially related to the reason you refer to. Accountability is fine, excessive claims and habitual litigation in case of human error are not.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:58 am

Jetty wrote:
There's also a reason why the USA has by far the worst healthcare per $ spend, and it's partially related to the reason you refer to. Accountability is fine, excessive claims and habitual litigation in case of human error are not.


Probably true. It is a leaky bucket for sure. But it is also true that the USA places a much higher "price" on a human life than almost any other country. People here have learned not to accept that somebody "just died". And it makes most people and companies more careful about just crossing their fingers and hoping that something will "be okay" and people won't get hurt. The whole "our asses are gonna be sued so we can't take the risk" changes people's behavior. Good or bad, that's the deal here. But, like I say, it's a leaky bucket. (Probably not as much as any gov't program to achieve the same result, but leaky still.)
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:06 am

Waterbomber wrote:
So your theory only works for a very sudden onset where the embolism is so severe that it leads to immediate cardiac arrest. That was probably not the case here, the event is described as a progressive negative trend.


I don't have the space here to teach you all of medical school, but...

A pulmonary embolus causes the release of a large amount of inflammatory mediators. Leaving aside the mechanical blockage, a large PE is enough to kill someone on that basis alone.
-Doc Lightning-

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MildBlueYonder
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:16 am

If there was any part of the passenger's demographics that might have swayed the original diagnosis toward panic attack over something more sinister, then it would most likely be the fact that she was 25 and healthy (vs. 52 and a chain smoker) rather than the fact of her being black.
 
Flighty
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:57 am

HeyHey wrote:
I am board certified in emergency medicine and thought I would opine about how difficult a situation such as this truly is and share some of my thoughts.

I would not feel comfortable advising whether a plane should divert or not. I can advise the pilot or crew on my suspicions of a serious emergency happening and the urgency of getting medical care, but I can't tell them that the plane should divert. I would have a decent idea about the risk of a person having a true medical emergency, but I have no concept of the risks, expense, or unforeseen ramifications of diverting an airplane. Since I don't have an idea of the magnitude on both sides of the equation (the patient and the plane) I don't think I could make an informed decision in regards to diverting. I seriously doubt that the physician on board could make an informed decision in regards to diversion as well. They could advise that the patient is critical and needs medical care ASAP, but that is different than saying, "this plane needs to divert."

Secondly, the case likely will not be successful unless they can prove the equipment was not maintained properly. The fact that the AED didn't administer a shock tells us nothing about whether it was working or now. We only defibrillate (shock) certain cardiac rhythms (ventricular tachycardia or ventricular fibrillation), and if the patient is in another rhythm (specifically PEA or asystole) then there is no role for a shock. Furthermore, just because someone died doesn't mean that there was negligence. Out of hospital cardiac arrest has a dismal prognosis even when someone is on the ground and received care in an expedited manor. The fact that they were at 30,000 feet and a minimum of an hour from a hospital (from landing to unloading to EMS transport) would only make the survival chance that much more dismal. Something with such a dismal outcome is going to be hard to prove that their negligence led to harm.


Interesting post. Just as you may feel unable to assess flight decisions, pilots have said they feel similarly unable to assess medical condition of passengers. The role for a person like yourself may be to assess whether the person needs emergency transport (never mind how - others can handle that part), or whether the passenger/patient is reasonably stable. That is where expert medical eyes can help everybody do the right thing.

Your general statement about how sick this lady likely was is a good piece of context to know. She as probably gonna die anyway, but when such a young, attractive person dies... understandably. the public becomes fixated and may angrily demand answers.
 
D L X
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:04 am

TheFlyingRaven wrote:


You asked if race could have played a part, so let's think about who could have let her race affect their judgement.

* * *

Secondly, the doctor: whilst his initial prognosis was iffy, we only know this with hindsight. He recommended, apparently, immediate landing, tried every life-saving aid on the plane and did CPR even as the plane was landing, risking his own life. I'd say not racist.


You realize that an initial misdiagnosis of a milder condition is a hallmark of medical implicit bias, right? Black patients are less likely to be believed when we report our symptoms. There are literally hundreds of studies on this.

I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but you just served up the biggest point on a silver platter. It’s too bad that so man on a.net hear the word “race” and fall over themselves to bark about how racism doesn’t exist, instead of actually analyzing the claim. I’ve given up on discussing this topic intelligently here.


So who exactly was racist consciously or unconsciously?

The one who set up the straw man argument to defend something as not biased.
 
TheFlyingRaven
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:40 am

D L X wrote:
TheFlyingRaven wrote:


You asked if race could have played a part, so let's think about who could have let her race affect their judgement.

* * *

Secondly, the doctor: whilst his initial prognosis was iffy, we only know this with hindsight. He recommended, apparently, immediate landing, tried every life-saving aid on the plane and did CPR even as the plane was landing, risking his own life. I'd say not racist.


You realize that an initial misdiagnosis of a milder condition is a hallmark of medical implicit bias, right? Black patients are less likely to be believed when we report our symptoms. There are literally hundreds of studies on this.

I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but you just served up the biggest point on a silver platter. It’s too bad that so man on a.net hear the word “race” and fall over themselves to bark about how racism doesn’t exist, instead of actually analyzing the claim. I’ve given up on discussing this topic intelligently here.


So who exactly was racist consciously or unconsciously?

The one who set up the straw man argument to defend something as not biased.


Excellent. So you say that the doctor was racially bias, which means that his opinion is not to be trusted, which means that his opinion is worth less than someone who is unaware of the person's race. So the PIC should not have trusted the racially bias doctor on board as much as his company's medical emergency team.

Good job they did then, eh?

It’s too bad that so man on a.net hear the word “race” and fall over themselves to bark about how racism doesn’t exist, instead of actually analyzing the claim.


Sadly racism is an all too real thing, but in this case it had nothing to do with the PIC's actions.

D L X wrote:
TheFlyingRaven wrote:
So who exactly was racist consciously or unconsciously?

The one who set up the straw man argument to defend something as not biased.


Identify my straw man argument. You stated that you wondered whether race could have played a part in people's decisions. I systematically considered the various people involved. It was you that brought race into it. You do know what a straw man argument is right?
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:08 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
[...]


Well apology accepted, but I still disagree.

I wasn't being smug, I was - as pointed out by someone else later - noting that unlike the US most of the world only resorts to suing people when they've either deliberately done something bad or been really negligent.

This was a case where the fault was technically theirs but it was the result of an unpredictable and unforseen sequence of events.

I wasn't planning to talk about what happened and thought my brief summary would be sufficient.

And the hospital is conducting a formal investigation, with a public report to be published in a couple of months' time, so I would argue that legal threats are not a requirement for good self-policing.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:14 pm

D L X wrote:
I’ve been trying to stay out of this, but you just served up the biggest point on a silver platter. It’s too bad that so man on a.net hear the word “race” and fall over themselves to bark about how racism doesn’t exist, instead of actually analyzing the claim. I’ve given up on discussing this topic intelligently here.


In my work, one very common thing I see is the Black boy with diagnosis of "ADHD" who has been put on antipsychotics for it (which is exactly the WRONG kind of treatment for ADHD). In my 16 years of clinical experience, I have only ever once seen it done to a white kid. Now, I am sure that the people prescribing these things would swear up and down to you that they aren't racist. Most of them are probably politically liberal. And yet...there it is. Drives me nuts.

That's what we call "implicit bias," ladies and gentlemen.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
D L X
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:30 pm

TheFlyingRaven wrote:
Excellent. So you say that the doctor was racially bias,

Let me stop you right there. I never said that the doctor was racially biased. I never made that conclusion, nor did I even make that accusation. But there are many people here who upon hearing the QUESTION, leaped to the defense of this person as if you were there and you've known him all your lives, and said "how dare you even ask the question."

TheFlyingRaven wrote:
Sadly racism is an all too real thing, but in this case it had nothing to do with the PIC's actions.


Yes, when you say things like that, and emphasize the PIC, you're making clear that you do not know what a straw argument is, but you know how to use one.

DocLightning wrote:

Doc, I was nearly one of those kids. I was fortunately never prescribed something to "fix" me, but I was held back, I was sent to detention, and I was put in the corner. Then I took a standardized test and when I got the highest scores in the county, they put me in advanced classes and suddenly my "behavioral problems" ceased. That was second grade. It happened again in 9th grade my new guidance counselors *looked* at me and didn't think I was ready for the pre-collegiate classes I signed up for. My parents lost their minds, and I was transferred to a magnet school, and eventually went to MIT.

Now I'm an adult, and can fend for myself, but I am frequently knocking back at people who look at me and assume without thinking about it that I'm not going to be able to keep up with them. I shudder to think what will happen to me in situations where I am unable to advocate for myself.
 
reggiet
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:19 pm

hivue wrote:
itchief wrote:
AA made some large mistakes in judgement and with the equipment on-board the aircraft that failed to work.


The legal brief linked above tries to imply that the AED failed because it delivered no shock after 3 "attempts." The AED's declining to shock the victim is not an indication of failure. The victim may have been asystolic or in a rhythm that defibrillation could not have rectified.



AEDs absolutely will advise shock or no shock according to heart disposition at the time, so it's highly unlikely there's a medical equipment error here. "The AED will automatically analyse the heart rhythm of the victim and inform you, the rescuer, whether a shock is advised. If you get a "no shock advised" instruction from the AED it can mean the victim is not in a 'shockable' rhythm" (i.e. not ventricular fibrillation (VT) or ventricular tachycardia (VT)".
Patient goes down in cardiac arrest with no pulse, CPR is commenced (early CPR saves lives), AED pads are applied, AED analyzes for shock, AED applies shock or doesn't with loud automatic voice prompts built in. First Responders then continue CPR. Working 20+ years as a FF/EMT, we've been involved in plenty of those CPR scenarios

R. Tait
AFD
Reggie in Austin
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:54 pm

Good thing they didn't check her political leanings or what NBA team she rooted for, that would inevitably generate some "inherent bias" as well. :roll:

SurlyBonds wrote:
In my book, a system that incentivizes compliance is a good thing.

Is it? Reading this thread I've got more of an impression of a system that seems to be somewhat crippled from overlapping liability fears, "cover my ass first, everything else comes second" type of a system.

wjcandee wrote:
People here have learned not to accept that somebody "just died"

Meanwhile in the world outside of the US, people seem to be able to accept the fact that sometimes people die despite everyone trying their very best to prevent that; and that someone's death doesn't mean they should automatically sue someone for that. That's what SomeoneinTLS tried to say, I suppose.

wjcandee wrote:
And it makes most people and companies more careful about just crossing their fingers and hoping that something will "be okay" and people won't get hurt

If we stick to aviation, is it considerably safer in the US than in Europe because of that? Or is it because the safety culture in aviation on either side is a result of decades long cultivation of a system where accident/incident is followed by meticulous and thorough investigation, corrective measures being taken based on that investigation and their implementation is then doublechecked?
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:26 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
People here have learned not to accept that somebody "just died"

Meanwhile in the world outside of the US, people seem to be able to accept the fact that sometimes people die despite everyone trying their very best to prevent that; and that someone's death doesn't mean they should automatically sue someone for that. That's what SomeoneinTLS tried to say, I suppose.


Spot on.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
TheFlyingRaven
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:43 pm

Oh whatever. I've no idea what your actual point of view is. I've looked through the whole thread and you just seem to pick quarrels with others and flip flop in your stance.

D L X wrote:
I’ve been trying to stay out of this ... I’ve given up on discussing this topic intelligently here.


So you're literally not the sixth poster in this thread? And you seem to appear on every page of the thread, disagreeing with someone or other, suggesting that you've far from given up discussing it. I'll leave it up to you to decide if you're discussing it intelligently or not.

D L X wrote:
TheFlyingRaven wrote:
Excellent. So you say that the doctor was racially bias,

Let me stop you right there. I never said that the doctor was racially biased. I never made that conclusion, nor did I even make that accusation.


So you didn't just write:

D L X wrote:
You realize that an initial misdiagnosis of a milder condition is a hallmark of medical implicit bias, right? Black patients are less likely to be believed when we report our symptoms.


Perhaps I should have written 'medically implicit race bias' instead. Would you say that the doctor on the flight could have been 'medically implicit racially bias'? Or someone else. Genuinely, who do you think could have been affected by implicit bias?


D L X wrote:
Yes, when you say things like that, and emphasize the PIC, you're making clear that you do not know what a straw argument is, but you know how to use one.


Would you disagree with a definition of a strawman argument as: 'Substituting a person’s actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument.' (from https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy ).

You stated that you wondered if race had any part in the decisions made. I considered the people I could think of who could have been biased. So where did I distort your argument? What IS your argument? Also as you call it, incorrect, a straw argument, it suggests that you're the one who's not fully au fait with it.

I happen to believe that everyone tried to do the best they could with the information they had at the time. What is your actual stance?
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:52 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
[...]


I wasn't being smug, I was - as pointed out by someone else later - noting that unlike the US most of the world only resorts to suing people when they've either deliberately done something bad or been really negligent.

This was a case where the fault was technically theirs but it was the result of an unpredictable and unforseen sequence of events.


Two comments, here. First, tort law is mostly deeply rooted in English common law. It's been reinterpreted by modern courts in the US (particularly California), yes, and here and there codified in statutes. But it's inaccurate to claim that tort law is, in and of itself, a US-only phenomenon.

Yes, US plaintiffs' lawyers have developed an economic model (class actions, contingency fees) that allow plaintiffs to sue where they would not have otherwise sued; however, I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing; if you're entitled to a benefit, we ought to make it easier to claim that benefit. Also, don't kid yourself: this model is expanding to other common law countries. I've seen ads on the London Underground for plaintiffs' lawyers and in Sydney as well. Finally, one reason why victims are willing to sue in the US is the outrageous price of medical care. In countries that have Bismarckian social health insurance or single payer systems, there is less incentive to sue.

Second, based on your description above, it's difficult to say whether there was actually any negligence or medical malpractice involved. Most failures (be they engineering, aviation, medical, etc.) are cascading failures (i.e., "unpredictable and unforeseen sequences of events"). My earlier post assumed that you had already assessed that you had a good case.
 
D L X
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:36 pm

TheFlyingRaven wrote:
So you're literally not the sixth poster in this thread? And you seem to appear on every page of the thread, disagreeing with someone or other, suggesting that you've far from given up discussing it.

Context matters, you know. And if you hadn't selectively quoted me, you would have seen the context.

As for my appearances on this thread, I'm a lawyer, and an aviation enthusiast. This has been one of the most interesting threads I've ever participated in, save for the regrettably predictable racial discussion.

TheFlyingRaven wrote:
Would you disagree with a definition of a strawman argument as: 'Substituting a person’s actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument.'

Sure. That definition is as good as any. Your straw man was when you declared what I believed (which I had not stated) then rebutted an argument I did not make. I did not allege that the doctor was racist, so your argument that she wasn't was a straw man. I did not allege the PIC had done anything wrong (in fact I've been steadfast on this thread saying he was correct), so your argument that he hadn't was a straw man. I had not said that I could not find an intelligent discussion of these events here (just the racial question), so your argument that I had was a straw man.

I know you're trying to save face here, but perhaps you should just let this one go, chief. You've now devoted about half of your a.net posts to this albatross.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:20 pm

DocLightning wrote:
In my work, one very common thing I see is the Black boy with diagnosis of "ADHD" who has been put on antipsychotics for it (which is exactly the WRONG kind of treatment for ADHD). In my 16 years of clinical experience, I have only ever once seen it done to a white kid. Now, I am sure that the people prescribing these things would swear up and down to you that they aren't racist. Most of them are probably politically liberal. And yet...there it is. Drives me nuts.

That's what we call "implicit bias," ladies and gentlemen.

It's just so easy to fall foul of racial basis on so many levels. Earlier in the thread the whole racial bias question kicked-off with someone calling this 25 year old a "girl".

Now we see the Doc here using the terms "Black boy" (using a mid-sentence capital "B" to emphasize the blackness) versus a "white kid" (small "w").
Is it your bias or mine if I read the word "kid" and automatically think of something fluffy & nice?
Whereas "boy" reminds me of the dialogue between Rod Steiger and (Sir) Sidney Poitier
wikiquote; In the Heat of the Night (1967)
Chief Gillespie: Got a name, boy?
Tibbs: Virgil Tibbs. {......"They call me Mr Tibbs"}

DocLightning wrote:
I am sure that the people writing these things would swear up and down to you that they aren't racist.


As it happens I personally do not for one minute believe the Doc is racist, but a cold analysis of his words could easily be twisted to that conclusion.
:roll:

Meanwhile, on a lighter note; it's been a long time since I enjoyed a plate of Spezzatino di Capretto Bianco (Sicilian White Kid stew)
https://allthingssicilianandmore.com/sp ... -kid-stew/
Mmmmmmm. :biggrin:

Image

(Royalty free image from istockphoto.com)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:39 pm

A couple of questions here. Given her entire lists of symptoms when things starting becoming more acute how many possible different diagnosis would be on the table given her age & her appearance of general good health?

Or was this a case if you saw this woman that pulmonary embolism was the obvious diagnoses? There are a whole issues that present with very similar symptoms that something might have been lost between the aircraft & the team on the ground.

Oftentimes the best & some only way to arrive at a diagnoses is to figure out what it isn't Pretty hard to do in this situation with possible communication issues & lack of diagnostic equipment.

For those who thought ABQ was at the back end of the universe, ABQ does in fact have a level 1 trauma center.
https://hsc.unm.edu/health/patient-care ... enter.html

A far as the whole girl issue, I live in Western Canada where I can literally go months without seeing a black person & I hear people refer to adult women as "girl" all the time. "Go see the girl at the front" "See the girl at the desk"
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:48 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Now we see the Doc here using the terms "Black boy" (using a mid-sentence capital "B" to emphasize the blackness) versus a "white kid" (small "w").
Is it your bias or mine if I read the word "kid" and automatically think of something fluffy & nice?


1) The kids are almost always Black (and not necessarily self-identified as African-American, since there are people who are, say, Ethiopian who do not necessarily identify as "African-American" even if they are from Africa, and yet their boys get treated the same way), they are children, and they are almost always male children. I have only once seen it done to a fair-skinned child of either gender.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
As it happens I personally do not for one minute believe the Doc is racist, but a cold analysis of his words could easily be twisted to that conclusion.


I am absolutely a racist. This isn't something I'm proud of. I'm certainly not going to be marching in "White Pride" marches and waving Confederate or Nazi flags. But that doesn't mean I'm not a racist.

Rather, I acknowledge my own racism and work every day to counter it, to double-check my implicit biases, to ensure that every one of my patients gets treated the same regardless of the color of his or her skin. Some of the most horrible acts of racism are committed by people who have convinced themselves that "I'm not a racist."
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
loalq
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:08 pm

Theres' no "obvious" sign that someone is suffering a pulmonary embolism, it starts with shortness of breath then develops from there. The initial symptoms are pretty mundane. Unless one could say "i have a DVT so this could be an embolism (which is unlikely because once you KNOW you have a DVT you'd be on blood thinners anyway). It is also never stated that the doctor onboard cried pulmonary embolism, else the doctor on the ground would've mandated an immediate deviation to the nearest point (if it was any other than DFW anyway, maybe DFW WAS the nearest feasible landing option). Heck, we don't even know what specialization the doctor on board has...
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
Canuck600
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:16 pm

One has to wonder what the onboard doctor suggested the diagnoses was & why the doctor on the ground disagreed. In the above I'm just trying to say that things weren't as cut & dry medically as some here think they were
 
loalq
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:38 pm

Establishing where the aircraft was when the captain had to make his decision (it is his call after all has been discussed), and what the nearest point of landing wouldve been (and time that wouldve been saved vs landing in DFW) will be key to the case, plus assessing in good faith whether this was really decisive or not in the outcome of the patient.
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
loalq
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:46 pm

From EKs website, for illustration purposes only:

Emirates sets standards for on-board medical care

Dubai, UAE, 07 February 2017 – Flight diversions due to inflight medical emergencies make up a tiny portion of the millions of flights operated annually, but it is costly for airlines. With more people traveling by air, the actual number of inflight medical events has been gradually increasing over the years.

Emirates, the largest airline by international traffic, operates over 3,500 departures a week, or more than 194,000 flights in 2016. In those 12 months, the airline handled more than 60 flight diversions due to medical emergencies.

A single flight diversion can cost Emirates anything from US$50,000 to over US$600,000, depending on the nature of the diversion which include fuel, flight catering, landing and ground handling fees, air navigation cost, passenger rebooking costs and onward connection, as well as other associated costs to care for crew and passengers.

Adel Al Redha, Emirates’ Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, said: “We can never hope to recover the costs of a flight diversion, but the wellbeing of our customers is always our number one priority. Airlines handle medical emergencies differently, as there are no international regulations on this front. At Emirates, like everything else we do, the safety of our passengers comes first. If there is a medical emergency on board, our crew have the training and equipment to help them assess the situation, and deliver the best possible outcome for the affected passengers.”

Crew training and equipment

In 2016, Emirates delivered nearly 23,000 hours of medical training for cabin crew and pilots, ensuring they are ready to assist passengers on board.

All Emirates cabin crew go through a comprehensive initial training programme which is required by the UAE General Civil Aviation Authority, recurrent training to keep their skills up to date, as well as additional specific training for the use of on board medical equipment.

The medical training that Emirates cabin crew undertake includes both theory and practical aspects. It prepares them to recognise and deal with common situations, but more importantly handle rare but life-threatening events when time is of essence.

Topics covered include basic life support (CPR); medical conditions including asthma, heart disorders, seizures and allergic reactions; trauma related topics and even emergency childbirth amongst others. Pilots also attend training sessions covering topics such as Hypoxia, Malaria, Dengue, Trauma, CPR and choking and occupational health issues.

Emirates has also invested more than US$ 7 million in the installation of its medical equipment on board, with annual maintenance costs being a further US$ 1.7 million. Equipment on every Emirates aircraft include: emergency medical kits, oxygen bottles, resuscitators, a defibrillator, a telemedicine unit, and a 24/7, satellite medical advisory service that connects crew to specialist aviation medical consultants who can help assess the passenger’s situation in real time.

Making the right call

On average, Emirates’ crew make about 20 calls to the medical advisory service per 100,000 passengers flown. Most calls do not result in a diversion, but the professional consultation helps the operating crew to make better decisions and offer the right support to the affected passengers, particularly when there are no volunteer medical professionals on the flight.

Emirates’ in-house team of aviation medical specialists, flight planners and operations controllers, all work closely to conduct detailed scenario planning and regular updates to diversion protocols – in keeping with the airline’s growing global network, as well as advances in medical thinking, inflight medical technologies, and training techniques.

Mr Al Redha said: “If we have to divert a flight, our aim is to get medical attention for the afflicted passenger as soon as possible. Via our medical advisory consultants and Emirates’ own operations control team, we identify the best location where the passenger may receive appropriate care, and where the airport can adequately support the passengers and aircraft.

“The diversion location selected may be someplace where medical costs are expensive and travellers should consider procuring the appropriate insurance before they travel.”
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Tue May 01, 2018 2:28 am

Canuck600 wrote:
the doctor on the ground disagreed


How did you conclude that?
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Tue May 01, 2018 2:47 am

DocLightning wrote:
I am absolutely a racist. This isn't something I'm proud of. I'm certainly not going to be marching in "White Pride" marches and waving Confederate or Nazi flags. But that doesn't mean I'm not a racist.

Rather, I acknowledge my own racism and work every day to counter it, to double-check my implicit biases, to ensure that every one of my patients gets treated the same regardless of the color of his or her skin.


You hit on something interesting here; I'd argue that most people equate racism to consciously treating someone differently based on their race. In your post above, you're referring to what could be called 'subconscious racism,' or simply 'bias' if you will. I wouldn't say you are a racist; from my perspective, that requires making the conscious, intentional decision to treat someone differently solely due to race, and unless I've completely misjudged you, that's not who you are at all.

While acknowledging most, if not all people have some level of unconscious bias to them, calling those who only have an unconscious bias "racists" - lumping them in with cross-burning, hate-filled people - is the quickest way to turn them off and have them tune out what you're saying.

And I think that's where this thread veered off the tracks about the young woman's medical situation and unfortunate passing.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
D L X
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Tue May 01, 2018 3:06 am

EA CO AS wrote:

While acknowledging most, if not all people have some level of unconscious bias to them, calling those who only have an unconscious bias "racists" - lumping them in with cross-burning, hate-filled people - is the quickest way to turn them off and have them tune out what you're saying.

And I think that's where this thread veered off the tracks about the young woman's medical situation and unfortunate passing.

EA CO AS, I’m glad you’ve reached this conclusion, but I challenge you to go back and read wjcandee’s post where he wondered about a racial element. It wasn’t he who said these people were racist. Indeed, what he said was almost exactly what Doc said.

The charge if “racist” was what all the people who jumped to conclusion said. Like clockwork, I’d have to say.

With that said, as a racial minority, I have to say there is little comfort in one being biased instead of a cross-burner. I can defend against the cross-burner. He’s overt. The biased person though often doesn’t even know it, and I might not know it until he’s already hurt me. As long as people make some imaginary distinction “cross-burner bad, but biased person not,” bias will continue to be dangerous.

We could have a much longer discussion in this point in Non-av.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Tue May 01, 2018 3:55 am

D L X wrote:
With that said, as a racial minority, I have to say there is little comfort in one being biased instead of a cross-burner. I can defend against the cross-burner. He’s overt. The biased person though often doesn’t even know it, and I might not know it until he’s already hurt me. As long as people make some imaginary distinction “cross-burner bad, but biased person not,” bias will continue to be dangerous.


This is what terrifies me. I *DO NOT* want to be that guy.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Tue May 01, 2018 4:31 am

DocLightning wrote:
D L X wrote:
With that said, as a racial minority, I have to say there is little comfort in one being biased instead of a cross-burner. I can defend against the cross-burner. He’s overt. The biased person though often doesn’t even know it, and I might not know it until he’s already hurt me. As long as people make some imaginary distinction “cross-burner bad, but biased person not,” bias will continue to be dangerous.


This is what terrifies me. I *DO NOT* want to be that guy.


And it's GOOD that you don't want to be "that guy" - most people don't, I'd argue, myself included.

Here's the thing though, D L X - you mention that you might not know the biased person has them until he/she has already hurt you. I can respect where you're coming from, but as someone who may have unconsciously hurt someone through bias, there are three ways for you, as the person who was hurt, to handle it:

1. Ignore it
2. Get mad and accuse the person of being a racist
3. Gently let that person know that while you don't for a moment believe they meant to offend you, their actions/words/lack thereof did so, and explain how.

To anyone I know, or even people I don't know, if they engage with me respectfully via number 3, the FIRST thing I'm doing is apologizing, and letting them know that making them feel the way I did was the LAST thing I'd ever want to do. I'd learn their perspective, keep that in mind going forward, and hopefully, they'd feel a bit better about sharing their perspective.

But the term "racist" is just such a strong one, that throwing it out there to describe someone who isn't intentionally being so has unintended consequences.

At least that's my take on it. Your mileage may vary.

And back we go to the young woman who passed away.... :(
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1780
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Tue May 01, 2018 7:30 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
Two comments, here. First, tort law is mostly deeply rooted in English common law.


Who said anything about English law? Since this didn't take place in England that has nothing to do with anything.

Second, based on your description above, it's difficult to say whether there was actually any negligence or medical malpractice involved.


Exactly. So can you please just admit you know absolutely nothing about the details or legal aspects of my case, as I said in the first place. You keep on demonstrating that everything you argue against me is based on your incorrect assumptions, so just drop it.

I made the simple point about death doesn't automatically mean you have to sue (maybe more eloquently put by L410Turbolet) using my recent experience as an example - but I should have known that some a.net know-it-all would have to misinterpret everything and ignorantly argue about it instead of just taking my statement at face value.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1201
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

Re: Family Suing AA Over Death of Passenger

Tue May 01, 2018 5:03 pm

HeyHey wrote:
I am board certified in emergency medicine and thought I would opine about how difficult a situation such as this truly is and share some of my thoughts.

I would not feel comfortable advising whether a plane should divert or not. I can advise the pilot or crew on my suspicions of a serious emergency happening and the urgency of getting medical care, but I can't tell them that the plane should divert. I would have a decent idea about the risk of a person having a true medical emergency, but I have no concept of the risks, expense, or unforeseen ramifications of diverting an airplane. Since I don't have an idea of the magnitude on both sides of the equation (the patient and the plane) I don't think I could make an informed decision in regards to diverting. I seriously doubt that the physician on board could make an informed decision in regards to diversion as well. They could advise that the patient is critical and needs medical care ASAP, but that is different than saying, "this plane needs to divert."

Secondly, the case likely will not be successful unless they can prove the equipment was not maintained properly. The fact that the AED didn't administer a shock tells us nothing about whether it was working or now. We only defibrillate (shock) certain cardiac rhythms (ventricular tachycardia or ventricular fibrillation), and if the patient is in another rhythm (specifically PEA or asystole) then there is no role for a shock. Furthermore, just because someone died doesn't mean that there was negligence. Out of hospital cardiac arrest has a dismal prognosis even when someone is on the ground and received care in an expedited manor. The fact that they were at 30,000 feet and a minimum of an hour from a hospital (from landing to unloading to EMS transport) would only make the survival chance that much more dismal. Something with such a dismal outcome is going to be hard to prove that their negligence led to harm.


Somewhere lost in the madness here is this perfectly rational post. Perhaps in the fullness of time the passenger-doc will reflect personally of his/her handling of the situation, but it is hard to fault someone with variable experience who is thrust into that environment and is being asked to assess a patient with frankly vague symptoms (as far as I read) initially.

By the time she suffered cardiac arrest it was already too late, sadly.

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