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rotating14
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Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:06 am

The Dreamlifters that shuttle 787 sections are being proposed to move 767 sections from Spirits Wichita Kansas facility to Everett. Boeing seems really bullish on future prospects for the 767. Amazon is rumored to be ordering between 80 and 100 frames.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... mp-up.html


Boeing is studying whether to use its special Dreamlifter 747 cargo jet to ship structurally assembled 767 forward sections from its supplier in Kansas to Everett for final assembly.The 767 forward fuselage sections are currently shipped in pieces by railway from the Spirit AeroSystems plant in Wichita, Kansas, to Boeing's Everett plant.
 
CX747
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:43 am

Amazing to read that the design has been flying for 12+ years. Those are some well flown 747s. They were all purchased used by Boeing and had amassed storied careers as passenger haulers. Nice to hear they have received or will receive brand new P&W 4062s just like the KC-46.

If this indeed goes through, that's more work for the "Fantastic Four" and their Atlas Air crews.
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2175301
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:22 am

I wonder, what's the chance of another Dream-lifter or two if 767 orders continue to pile up... Down the line they may need replacements in the future as well...

Have a great day,
 
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:50 am

Would this have an effect on 787 production since these aircraft were primarily designed and purposed for that role? If Boeing wants to ramp up the 787 how are they going to do that with Dreamlifters taking up time and slots for the 767.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:07 am

2175301 wrote:
I wonder, what's the chance of another Dream-lifter or two if 767 orders continue to pile up... Down the line they may need replacements in the future as well...

Have a great day,


You can’t. There is a legal limit on how many you can have without certification. The solution long term is consolidating 787 production in Charleston which reduces the flights needed by a huge amount.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:33 am

rotating14 wrote:
Amazon is rumored to be ordering between 80 and 100 frames.


That rumour has been around for almost 2 years, and still nothing. Jon Ostrower, an enthusiast-turned-journalist who is therefore more knowledgeable than most, didn't repeat the rumour in his article.

Personally, I don't see it where they could fly even another 20 767s, but never say never I guess.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:14 pm

bigjku wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I wonder, what's the chance of another Dream-lifter or two if 767 orders continue to pile up... Down the line they may need replacements in the future as well...

Have a great day,


You can’t. There is a legal limit on how many you can have without certification. The solution long term is consolidating 787 production in Charleston which reduces the flights needed by a huge amount.

The Dreamlifter is certified, albeit heavily restricted in what it is allowed to be used for (only for Boeing work). You can see it on the 747 type certificate.
 
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smittythepirate
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:27 pm

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Would this have an effect on 787 production since these aircraft were primarily designed and purposed for that role? If Boeing wants to ramp up the 787 how are they going to do that with Dreamlifters taking up time and slots for the 767.


They won't sacrifice 787 production for the 767. More than likely they will shift some deliveries around as the cockpit for the 787 is also made in Wichita. Maybe when they run aft pieces up they will add a couple forward pieces while they are there.
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QXAS
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:40 pm

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Would this have an effect on 787 production since these aircraft were primarily designed and purposed for that role? If Boeing wants to ramp up the 787 how are they going to do that with Dreamlifters taking up time and slots for the 767.

Charleston. It’s where all of the -10s will be built. I don’t know how much expansion room Charleston has, but if Dreamlifters become the limiting factor, the more planes built there, the more fuselage components that don’t have to be ferried. Obviously other components must be ferried so Charleston isn’t the end all be all, but it would reduce demand, if necessary there are plenty of 747s sitting in various desserts in the southwestern US. How many cycles/hours does a dreamlifter rack up per year? How high is fleet utilization?
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bigjku
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:43 pm

Polot wrote:
bigjku wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I wonder, what's the chance of another Dream-lifter or two if 767 orders continue to pile up... Down the line they may need replacements in the future as well...

Have a great day,


You can’t. There is a legal limit on how many you can have without certification. The solution long term is consolidating 787 production in Charleston which reduces the flights needed by a huge amount.

The Dreamlifter is certified, albeit heavily restricted in what it is allowed to be used for (only for Boeing work). You can see it on the 747 type certificate.


My understanding was that under that type of certification you are limited in how many frames you can operate.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:26 pm

If an order of that magnitude were to materialize, if there any thought that maybe there's an opportunity to modernize the 767...a NEO with other aerodynamic improvements? The 787 is a great aircraft of somewhat similar size but its ability to fly ultra-long haul makes it less enviable on shorter journeys that a 767 does great with. East Coast Trans-Atlantic for example. Especially in an age where carriers, especially US carriers, only dominate routes to partner hubs in Europe and have a harder time on secondary markets, it would help with being able to add those markets. Similar to how AA has used the 787 to enter Pacific markets where the 777 would be too big for them as a new entrant. Thoughts?
 
Boof02671
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:49 pm

bigjku wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I wonder, what's the chance of another Dream-lifter or two if 767 orders continue to pile up... Down the line they may need replacements in the future as well...

Have a great day,


You can’t. There is a legal limit on how many you can have without certification. The solution long term is consolidating 787 production in Charleston which reduces the flights needed by a huge amount.

Not going to happen and CHS isn’t large enough.

Do you know the Everett plant is the largest building by volume in the world, I’ve been there.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:49 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
If an order of that magnitude were to materialize, if there any thought that maybe there's an opportunity to modernize the 767...a NEO with other aerodynamic improvements? The 787 is a great aircraft of somewhat similar size but its ability to fly ultra-long haul makes it less enviable on shorter journeys that a 767 does great with. East Coast Trans-Atlantic for example. Especially in an age where carriers, especially US carriers, only dominate routes to partner hubs in Europe and have a harder time on secondary markets, it would help with being able to add those markets. Similar to how AA has used the 787 to enter Pacific markets where the 777 would be too big for them as a new entrant. Thoughts?


No.
 
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flee
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:55 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
If an order of that magnitude were to materialize, if there any thought that maybe there's an opportunity to modernize the 767...a NEO with other aerodynamic improvements? The 787 is a great aircraft of somewhat similar size but its ability to fly ultra-long haul makes it less enviable on shorter journeys that a 767 does great with. East Coast Trans-Atlantic for example. Especially in an age where carriers, especially US carriers, only dominate routes to partner hubs in Europe and have a harder time on secondary markets, it would help with being able to add those markets. Similar to how AA has used the 787 to enter Pacific markets where the 777 would be too big for them as a new entrant. Thoughts?

Not economic to do so because cargo aircraft operations are quite different and new engines will just make the aircraft more expensive and lower the ROI.
 
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:57 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I wonder, what's the chance of another Dream-lifter or two if 767 orders continue to pile up... Down the line they may need replacements in the future as well...

Have a great day,


You can’t. There is a legal limit on how many you can have without certification. The solution long term is consolidating 787 production in Charleston which reduces the flights needed by a huge amount.

Not going to happen and CHS isn’t large enough.

Do you know the Everett plant is the largest building by volume in the world, I’ve been there.


Yes it is but it's currently running 4 lines: 748, 777, 787, 767
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:59 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I wonder, what's the chance of another Dream-lifter or two if 767 orders continue to pile up... Down the line they may need replacements in the future as well...

Have a great day,


You can’t. There is a legal limit on how many you can have without certification. The solution long term is consolidating 787 production in Charleston which reduces the flights needed by a huge amount.

Not going to happen and CHS isn’t large enough.

Do you know the Everett plant is the largest building by volume in the world, I’ve been there.


Have been told Charleston is big enough to run two 787 production lines side by side on existing floor.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:06 pm

2175301 wrote:
I wonder, what's the chance of another Dream-lifter or two if 767 orders continue to pile up... Down the line they may need replacements in the future as well...

Have a great day,


There are plenty of retired passenger frames available in the desert.
 
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:14 pm

bigjku wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
bigjku wrote:

You can’t. There is a legal limit on how many you can have without certification. The solution long term is consolidating 787 production in Charleston which reduces the flights needed by a huge amount.

Not going to happen and CHS isn’t large enough.

Do you know the Everett plant is the largest building by volume in the world, I’ve been there.


Have been told Charleston is big enough to run two 787 production lines side by side on existing floor.


Well, maybe, but remember one of those lines won't be for the 787. Heh...
 
jimatkins
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:38 pm

Wonder if it would pay to tag a few Dreamlifters on the end of the 748 production line? Is the longer lifetime of a new airframe worthit. or just score a -400 that needs a D check. Gotta take it apart anyway!
 
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:07 pm

jimatkins wrote:
Wonder if it would pay to tag a few Dreamlifters on the end of the 748 production line? Is the longer lifetime of a new airframe worthit. or just score a -400 that needs a D check. Gotta take it apart anyway!


No need to. Eventually the 748i's will be retired from passenger service. The 777X might cause that retirement to happen sooner rather than later. There will be lots of 748i frames with lots of cycles left in them in the desert available for special applications like LCF and engine testbeds.
 
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:25 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
If an order of that magnitude were to materialize, if there any thought that maybe there's an opportunity to modernize the 767...a NEO with other aerodynamic improvements? The 787 is a great aircraft of somewhat similar size but its ability to fly ultra-long haul makes it less enviable on shorter journeys that a 767 does great with. East Coast Trans-Atlantic for example. Especially in an age where carriers, especially US carriers, only dominate routes to partner hubs in Europe and have a harder time on secondary markets, it would help with being able to add those markets. Similar to how AA has used the 787 to enter Pacific markets where the 777 would be too big for them as a new entrant. Thoughts?


At this stage in its life, the 767 portfolio is a "minimum effort" product. It has a very limited number of remaining applications for which it is more suited than other frames. The absolute most that you could look for is perhaps one more PIP to the engines to improve fuel burn or on-wing time/maintenance intervals. The only reason that I would even look for that is that a PIP may allow the manufacturer to simplify production by eliminating parts that use obsolete technology and replace them with more modern ones that use tech from an existing product. This could be a change in blade material, bearings, seals, or a tightening of tolerances. Even changes as minor as those will be expensive to perform and certify, meaning that there would have to be an continuing market for new sales.

I just don't see any new investment in the 767 happening, save for some minor tailoring for a large order that has a specific requirement for a modification (perhaps a door resizing, or strengthening the floor for very heavy items, that sort of thing).
 
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:40 pm

QXAS wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
Would this have an effect on 787 production since these aircraft were primarily designed and purposed for that role? If Boeing wants to ramp up the 787 how are they going to do that with Dreamlifters taking up time and slots for the 767.

Charleston. It’s where all of the -10s will be built. I don’t know how much expansion room Charleston has, but if Dreamlifters become the limiting factor, the more planes built there, the more fuselage components that don’t have to be ferried. Obviously other components must be ferried so Charleston isn’t the end all be all, but it would reduce demand, if necessary there are plenty of 747s sitting in various desserts in the southwestern US. How many cycles/hours does a dreamlifter rack up per year?
How high is fleet utilization?


Also consider the cargo bay is unpressurized, so metal fatigue is greatly reduced. There is a new pressure bulkhead at the back of the nose of the LCF.
With proper maintenance, the number of cycles pressurized portion of the LCF could withstand could be greatly increased. Boeing already has experience on extending the life of high cycle 737's. I'm sure that experience could be used to extend the life of the pressurized portions of the LCF.
Last edited by flyingclrs727 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:44 pm

I am surprised by this suggestion. Surely the bottleneck on 767 production rate is the overall supply chain, not the logistics to get bits to the FAL
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:55 pm

sassiciai wrote:
I am surprised by this suggestion. Surely the bottleneck on 767 production rate is the overall supply chain, not the logistics to get bits to the FAL

Remember the 767 is not on a moving assembly line and is occupying a FAL half the size of its original space (which the 787 took over). It sounds like the current bottleneck is the actual assembly, hence the consideration of switching from moving pieces of the fuselage to Everett and assembling there to assembling fuselage sections in Witchita where the pieces are fabricated and transporting completed fuselage sections whole to Everett for final assembly. Similar to how the 737 is done, the 767 is just too wide for a train though.
 
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:06 pm

I am guessing that this is a way to improve utilization for the Dreamlifters when they visit Spirit since the only part they manufacture is Section 41, which includes the nose and part of the forward cabin. If that is all they pick up and if they can only hold a single unit, then I expect there is sufficient empty space available to also slot in an assembled 767 Section 41.

Spirit manufactures the same for the 767, but just pre-assembling that part is not really going to speed up overall 767 production since the rest of the fuselage will still need to be assembled from panels via the assembly jig stations to the side of the main FAL.
 
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Stitch wrote:
I am guessing that this is a way to improve utilization for the Dreamlifters when they visit Spirit since the only part they manufacture is Section 41, which includes the nose and part of the forward cabin. If that is all they pick up and if they can only hold a single unit, then I expect there is sufficient empty space available to also slot in an assembled 767 Section 41.

Spirit manufactures the same for the 767, but just pre-assembling that part is not really going to speed up overall 767 production since the rest of the fuselage will still need to be assembled from panels via the assembly jig stations to the side of the main FAL.


That, and increasing production of the 767 by reducing tasks and reducing time an airframe spends on the FAL. Fewer manhours on the frame in FAL means more airframes through FAL. I think we will see the 25 frame order from SF before Amazon pulls the trigger on any.
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sassiciai
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:26 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Stitch wrote:
I am guessing that this is a way to improve utilization for the Dreamlifters when they visit Spirit since the only part they manufacture is Section 41, which includes the nose and part of the forward cabin. If that is all they pick up and if they can only hold a single unit, then I expect there is sufficient empty space available to also slot in an assembled 767 Section 41.

Spirit manufactures the same for the 767, but just pre-assembling that part is not really going to speed up overall 767 production since the rest of the fuselage will still need to be assembled from panels via the assembly jig stations to the side of the main FAL.


That, and increasing production of the 767 by reducing tasks and reducing time an airframe spends on the FAL. Fewer manhours on the frame in FAL means more airframes through FAL. I think we will see the 25 frame order from SF before Amazon pulls the trigger on any.

You cant increase production rate just by getting the necessary bits to the FAL quicker

The transport logistics is like a pipe - you put all the bits for 2 into the pipe every month, and every month, 2 new planes roll out. If you want 3 new planes, making the pipe shorter does not help - you have to put 3 sets of bits into the pipe!

If you want do go from 2/month to 3/month, the Dreamlifter is not your solution!

Quite amazing there is this demand for the 767, when there are apparently superior frames available (at competitive prices?), either new or conversions!
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:31 pm

sassiciai wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Stitch wrote:
I am guessing that this is a way to improve utilization for the Dreamlifters when they visit Spirit since the only part they manufacture is Section 41, which includes the nose and part of the forward cabin. If that is all they pick up and if they can only hold a single unit, then I expect there is sufficient empty space available to also slot in an assembled 767 Section 41.

Spirit manufactures the same for the 767, but just pre-assembling that part is not really going to speed up overall 767 production since the rest of the fuselage will still need to be assembled from panels via the assembly jig stations to the side of the main FAL.


That, and increasing production of the 767 by reducing tasks and reducing time an airframe spends on the FAL. Fewer manhours on the frame in FAL means more airframes through FAL. I think we will see the 25 frame order from SF before Amazon pulls the trigger on any.

You cant increase production rate just by getting the necessary bits to the FAL quicker

The transport logistics is like a pipe - you put all the bits for 2 into the pipe every month, and every month, 2 new planes roll out. If you want 3 new planes, making the pipe shorter does not help - you have to put 3 sets of bits into the pipe!

If you want do go from 2/month to 3/month, the Dreamlifter is not your solution!

Quite amazing there is this demand for the 767, when there are apparently superior frames available (at competitive prices?), either new or conversions!

You are too focused on the transport logistics. Just because you send 4/ month down the pipe doesn’t mean you can pump out 4/month from an assembly line. If you only have space at the final destination for 2 a month then that’s all you are getting out. You will just have a bunch of parts piling up at Everett waiting to be turned into a complete aircraft.

Think of this less about transportation logistics and more of shifting work. Boeing is looking at shifting work currently done at Everett to Witicha (which may have more available space) so they can build more complete planes in the same amount of space at Everett. With shifting work comes larger pieces, however, and Boeing has look into the feasibility/profitability of moving those new larger pieces around.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:34 pm

sassiciai wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Stitch wrote:
I am guessing that this is a way to improve utilization for the Dreamlifters when they visit Spirit since the only part they manufacture is Section 41, which includes the nose and part of the forward cabin. If that is all they pick up and if they can only hold a single unit, then I expect there is sufficient empty space available to also slot in an assembled 767 Section 41.

Spirit manufactures the same for the 767, but just pre-assembling that part is not really going to speed up overall 767 production since the rest of the fuselage will still need to be assembled from panels via the assembly jig stations to the side of the main FAL.


Quite amazing there is this demand for the 767, when there are apparently superior frames available (at competitive prices?), either new or conversions!

There are not much frames left in the market that are of a reasonable condition, pretty much all the good ones have been snapped up rather quickly.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:56 pm

Polot wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

That, and increasing production of the 767 by reducing tasks and reducing time an airframe spends on the FAL. Fewer manhours on the frame in FAL means more airframes through FAL. I think we will see the 25 frame order from SF before Amazon pulls the trigger on any.

You cant increase production rate just by getting the necessary bits to the FAL quicker

The transport logistics is like a pipe - you put all the bits for 2 into the pipe every month, and every month, 2 new planes roll out. If you want 3 new planes, making the pipe shorter does not help - you have to put 3 sets of bits into the pipe!

If you want do go from 2/month to 3/month, the Dreamlifter is not your solution!

Quite amazing there is this demand for the 767, when there are apparently superior frames available (at competitive prices?), either new or conversions!

You are too focused on the transport logistics. Just because you send 4/ month down the pipe doesn’t mean you can pump out 4/month from an assembly line. If you only have space at the final destination for 2 a month then that’s all you are getting out. You will just have a bunch
of parts piling up at Everett waiting to be turned into a complete aircraft.

Think of this less about transportation logistics and more of shifting work. Boeing is looking at shifting work currently done at Everett to Witicha (which may have more available space) so they can build more complete planes in the same amount of space at Everett. With shifting work comes larger pieces, however, and Boeing has look into the feasibility/profitability of moving those new larger pieces around.



OK, that makes sense, and I can understand that now. The Thread Title suggests otherwise, as in fact - assuming you are right - the limit is FAL throughput. However, if you have a FAL that could build 5/month, but still only put 2/month into the pipe, you'll only get 2/month out!

If you make the pipe bigger, and still only send 2 bigger bits through it every month, you still only build 2/month.

To move beyond 2/month, the entire supply chain has to move up. Will Boeing be willing to invest in ramping up production to all its subcontractors and commit to a minimum number of frames in a particular period?

The Dreamlifter is still just part of the pipe! If the FAL is the bottleneck, then it should be recognised as such, and addressed as deemed fit!
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:01 pm

sassiciai wrote:
Polot wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
You cant increase production rate just by getting the necessary bits to the FAL quicker

The transport logistics is like a pipe - you put all the bits for 2 into the pipe every month, and every month, 2 new planes roll out. If you want 3 new planes, making the pipe shorter does not help - you have to put 3 sets of bits into the pipe!

If you want do go from 2/month to 3/month, the Dreamlifter is not your solution!

Quite amazing there is this demand for the 767, when there are apparently superior frames available (at competitive prices?), either new or conversions!

You are too focused on the transport logistics. Just because you send 4/ month down the pipe doesn’t mean you can pump out 4/month from an assembly line. If you only have space at the final destination for 2 a month then that’s all you are getting out. You will just have a bunch
of parts piling up at Everett waiting to be turned into a complete aircraft.

Think of this less about transportation logistics and more of shifting work. Boeing is looking at shifting work currently done at Everett to Witicha (which may have more available space) so they can build more complete planes in the same amount of space at Everett. With shifting work comes larger pieces, however, and Boeing has look into the feasibility/profitability of moving those new larger pieces around.



OK, that makes sense, and I can understand that now. The Thread Title suggests otherwise, as in fact - assuming you are right - the limit is FAL throughput. However, if you have a FAL that could build 5/month, but still only put 2/month into the pipe, you'll only get 2/month out!

If you make the pipe bigger, and still only send 2 bigger bits through it every month, you still only build 2/month.

To move beyond 2/month, the entire supply chain has to move up. Will Boeing be willing to invest in ramping up production to all its subcontractors and commit to a minimum number of frames in a particular period?

The Dreamlifter is still just part of the pipe! If the FAL is the bottleneck, then it should be recognised as such, and addressed as deemed fit!


Keep in mind that 767 peak production was once something like ~5 a month. I don’t think the supply chain is a huge issue for raising the current rate, especially as it will only be focused on freighters and tankers (don’t have to worry about interior pax fittings). But as I mentioned before the 767 FAL use to have double the current space as it has now. If space is lacking for increased production there is little Boeing can do other than shifting work to places that more space. There is not really free space elsewhere in the facility to use and Boeing are not going to expand for a temporary rate increase.
 
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:46 pm

[quote="jeffrey0032j"
There are not much frames left in the market that are of a reasonable condition, pretty much all the good ones have been snapped up rather quickly.[/quote]

V8-ALI ferried to Marana this past March, after being stored in Hamburg for a year. Gently used 26 year old with GE engines.
 
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:45 pm

sassiciai wrote:
Quite amazing there is this demand for the 767, when there are apparently superior frames available (at competitive prices?), either new or conversions!


The 767 is a very versatile freighter platform. It offers better performance in terms of payload volume, payload weight and payload range than the A300F and A310F and close on payload volume (but not payload weight) with similar range as the MD-10F. This is why they are so popular at FedEx (new builds) and UPS (new builds and now P2F conversions).


Polot wrote:
Keep in mind that 767 peak production was once something like ~5 a month. I don’t think the supply chain is a huge issue for raising the current rate, especially as it will only be focused on freighters and tankers (don’t have to worry about interior pax fittings). But as I mentioned before the 767 FAL use to have double the current space as it has now. If space is lacking for increased production there is little Boeing can do other than shifting work to places that more space. There is not really free space elsewhere in the facility to use and Boeing are not going to expand for a temporary rate increase.


When Boeing was producing five a month, the FAL was much larger as you noted. The current FAL does wing and tail assembly along with wing/body join at Building 40-33 and then has two stations in 40-32: the first is Final Body Join and then closer to the exit doors is Functional Test. To either side are two major assembly stations (41-43 and 45-46) where the fuselage sections are assembled before being moved to Final Body Join.

So Boeing has only one assembly station (where all the fuselage sections, wings and empennage are attached) and then one section for outfitting and functional testing. So how quickly they can put a 767 together would be the real rate-limiter as they could do functional testing and outfitting in the EMC if that takes longer than the initial assembly.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:55 am

Polot wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

That, and increasing production of the 767 by reducing tasks and reducing time an airframe spends on the FAL. Fewer manhours on the frame in FAL means more airframes through FAL. I think we will see the 25 frame order from SF before Amazon pulls the trigger on any.

You cant increase production rate just by getting the necessary bits to the FAL quicker

The transport logistics is like a pipe - you put all the bits for 2 into the pipe every month, and every month, 2 new planes roll out. If you want 3 new planes, making the pipe shorter does not help - you have to put 3 sets of bits into the pipe!

If you want do go from 2/month to 3/month, the Dreamlifter is not your solution!

Quite amazing there is this demand for the 767, when there are apparently superior frames available (at competitive prices?), either new or conversions!

You are too focused on the transport logistics. Just because you send 4/ month down the pipe doesn’t mean you can pump out 4/month from an assembly line. If you only have space at the final destination for 2 a month then that’s all you are getting out. You will just have a bunch of parts piling up at Everett waiting to be turned into a complete aircraft.

Think of this less about transportation logistics and more of shifting work. Boeing is looking at shifting work currently done at Everett to Witicha (which may have more available space) so they can build more complete planes in the same amount of space at Everett. With shifting work comes larger pieces, however, and Boeing has look into the feasibility/profitability of moving those new larger pieces around.

If the Dreamlifters are used, it would be to shift work (stuffed barrels).

I'm not hearing anything on Amazon. I was excited as I heard stuff last year, but my same source says management has more pressing issues. :(

Lightsaber
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CallmeJB
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:34 am

FrmrKSEngr wrote:
V8-ALI ferried to Marana this past March, after being stored in Hamburg for a year. Gently used 26 year old with GE engines.

V8-ALI is a 747-400, not a 767.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:47 am

FrmrKSEngr wrote:
V8-ALI ferried to Marana this past March, after being stored in Hamburg for a year. Gently used 26 year old with GE engines.

CallmeJB wrote:
V8-ALI is a 747-400, not a 767.


I believe that statement was in context of making a fifth Dreamlifter, hence a 747-400. :)
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:31 am

V8-ALI was replaced with a 747-8i on September 27, 2016.. Registration number V8-BKH. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:06 am

I should have put in my previous comment the following. I would not be surprised if most of the interior was removed from V8-ALI and used on the new 747-8i, V8-BKH. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:44 am

Leeham has rumors of 767 production increases, but not involving the dreamlifter:
https://leehamnews.com/2018/04/25/boein ... f-several/

UPS and Amazon are listed as the two likely buyers...

The announced rate increase comes right on schedule to market information received by LNC months ago: that the 767 production rate would be increased to 3/mo in January 2020.

Boeing alerted the supply chain to study increases to this and more: to 3/mo in January 2020, 3/5/mo in July and 4/mo in January 2021.

The rate would come down to 3/mo in January 2025 and 2/mo in July, supply chains sources told LNC.
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787Mech
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:13 am

Regarding the size and capability of the Charleston site - FA is fully capable of two lines, although it would take substantial manpower increase, and finding the right people.. to simply absorb Everetts current rate is not possible and in my opinion wouldn’t be possible for several years, or more. As far as expansion room? The last I looked, the was roughly 150 unused acres of space that boeing owns/leases from the charleston airport. Review the Army Corp of Engineers .pdf for the Charleston site; while some it is several years old, it’s still a good read.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:31 am

Could a C5 carry a 767 section ?
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:36 am

Stitch wrote:
FrmrKSEngr wrote:
V8-ALI ferried to Marana this past March, after being stored in Hamburg for a year. Gently used 26 year old with GE engines.

CallmeJB wrote:
V8-ALI is a 747-400, not a 767.


I believe that statement was in context of making a fifth Dreamlifter, hence a 747-400. :)

My post was a reply regarding the 767.
 
brindabella
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:26 am

Polot wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

That, and increasing production of the 767 by reducing tasks and reducing time an airframe spends on the FAL. Fewer manhours on the frame in FAL means more airframes through FAL. I think we will see the 25 frame order from SF before Amazon pulls the trigger on any.

You cant increase production rate just by getting the necessary bits to the FAL quicker

The transport logistics is like a pipe - you put all the bits for 2 into the pipe every month, and every month, 2 new planes roll out. If you want 3 new planes, making the pipe shorter does not help - you have to put 3 sets of bits into the pipe!

If you want do go from 2/month to 3/month, the Dreamlifter is not your solution!

Quite amazing there is this demand for the 767, when there are apparently superior frames available (at competitive prices?), either new or conversions!

You are too focused on the transport logistics. Just because you send 4/ month down the pipe doesn’t mean you can pump out 4/month from an assembly line. If you only have space at the final destination for 2 a month then that’s all you are getting out. You will just have a bunch of parts piling up at Everett waiting to be turned into a complete aircraft.

Think of this less about transportation logistics and more of shifting work. Boeing is looking at shifting work currently done at Everett to Witicha (which may have more available space) so they can build more complete planes in the same amount of space at Everett. With shifting work comes larger pieces, however, and Boeing has look into the feasibility/profitability of moving those new larger pieces around.


I elicited some interesting thoughts from STITCH on this about 1 year ago when the 767 was obviously coming back into fashion in the Freight market.

However and nevetheless my impression is that "there is no room to swing a cat" in the hangar-space shared with the 748.

Have wondered b4 if a solution is to make the 767-300F in Wichita.

Equity in Spirit anyone?

:D :angel:

cheers
Billy
 
SC430
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:38 pm

wjcandee wrote:
rotating14 wrote:
Amazon is rumored to be ordering between 80 and 100 frames.


That rumour has been around for almost 2 years, and still nothing. Jon Ostrower, an enthusiast-turned-journalist who is therefore more knowledgeable than most, didn't repeat the rumour in his article.

Personally, I don't see it where they could fly even another 20 767s, but never say never I guess.



Perhaps you're patience is about to be rewarded:

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... order.html
 
slcguy
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:13 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
Could a C5 carry a 767 section ?


No, other than maybe nose or rear sections. Could probably work for narrow body aircraft but the point is moot.

The Lockheed C-5 is a US military design only for the US Air Force and not certified for any civilian use (experimental or otherwise).

All C-5 aircraft remaining will be upgraded, maintained and operated for the rest of their lives by the US Air Force. When their operational lives are done they will be stored or scrapped at DM.

Boeing has no history with this aircraft, the logistics and costs of trying to incorporate and operate this aircraft would be unreasonable, Boeing's only real option is acquiring used 747 aircraft or new build 747-8F and converting them to LCFs. The LCF itself is certified as an experimental aircraft to be operated by Boeing/Atlas with the sole purpose of transporting aircraft components for Boeing. It is not available or produced for any other cargo operations.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:27 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
Could a C5 carry a 767 section ?


The diameter of the 767 fuselage exceeds the height of the C-5's cargo bay. It also would not fit in an An-124.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:57 pm

SC430 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
rotating14 wrote:
Amazon is rumored to be ordering between 80 and 100 frames.


That rumour has been around for almost 2 years, and still nothing. Jon Ostrower, an enthusiast-turned-journalist who is therefore more knowledgeable than most, didn't repeat the rumour in his article.

Personally, I don't see it where they could fly even another 20 767s, but never say never I guess.



Perhaps you're patience is about to be rewarded:

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... order.html


Don't know why they would use a credit line to purchase a long-term asset like a new 767. Credit lines are usually for short-term assets and to cover cash flow hits (or assets that are acquired quickly for cash, then shifted later to longer-term financing.)

Making sure you have the cash available to do stuff, particularly when you're riding high, is a good corporate practice. The uninformed nature of the article is also reflected in the repeating of the rumour that they're gonna buy DHL to expand their cargo fleet. Of course, in the US, DHL directly operates exactly zero aircraft. DHL owns a few aircraft, but not enough to handle even a portion of its US business; the rest are leased from (and all are operated by) exactly the same people that Amazon leases from and uses to operate the Amazon Air aircraft.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:22 pm

UPS is adding P2F 767s and the rumor is they are doing so because they cannot get new builds anytime soon between FedEx and the USAF. As Boeing is looking at increasing the production rate to 4 per month by 2021 and then ramping down to 3 per month in January 2025 and 2 per month by Summer of that year, perhaps Boeing is looking to open up an extra 100 slots or so which would be sufficient for a 50 frame UPS order as well as allowing FedEx to exercise their 50 options. Together, that would be enough to more or less replace both customer's A300-600F fleets.

After 2025, a two per month rate would be sufficient to meet the KC-46A delivery requirements.
 
SC430
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Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:38 pm

wjcandee wrote:
SC430 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

That rumour has been around for almost 2 years, and still nothing. Jon Ostrower, an enthusiast-turned-journalist who is therefore more knowledgeable than most, didn't repeat the rumour in his article.

Personally, I don't see it where they could fly even another 20 767s, but never say never I guess.



Perhaps you're patience is about to be rewarded:

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... order.html


Don't know why they would use a credit line to purchase a long-term asset like a new 767. Credit lines are usually for short-term assets and to cover cash flow hits (or assets that are acquired quickly for cash, then shifted later to longer-term financing.)

Making sure you have the cash available to do stuff, particularly when you're riding high, is a good corporate practice. The uninformed nature of the article is also reflected in the repeating of the rumour that they're gonna buy DHL to expand their cargo fleet. Of course, in the US, DHL directly operates exactly zero aircraft. DHL owns a few aircraft, but not enough to handle even a portion of its US business; the rest are leased from (and all are operated by) exactly the same people that Amazon leases from and uses to operate the Amazon Air aircraft.


Can't really disagree with you ,but given Boeing's recent statement about increasing production rate on the 767 line I'll go with a large order is forthcoming.
 
wjcandee
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Boeing weighs using Dreamlifters to increase 767 output.

Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:01 pm

SC430 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
SC430 wrote:


Perhaps you're patience is about to be rewarded:

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... order.html


Don't know why they would use a credit line to purchase a long-term asset like a new 767. Credit lines are usually for short-term assets and to cover cash flow hits (or assets that are acquired quickly for cash, then shifted later to longer-term financing.)

Making sure you have the cash available to do stuff, particularly when you're riding high, is a good corporate practice. The uninformed nature of the article is also reflected in the repeating of the rumour that they're gonna buy DHL to expand their cargo fleet. Of course, in the US, DHL directly operates exactly zero aircraft. DHL owns a few aircraft, but not enough to handle even a portion of its US business; the rest are leased from (and all are operated by) exactly the same people that Amazon leases from and uses to operate the Amazon Air aircraft.


Can't really disagree with you ,but given Boeing's recent statement about increasing production rate on the 767 line I'll go with a large order is forthcoming.


Well, fingers-crossed. That would certainly be very exciting if it happened. I do think, though, that FedEx/UPS are more likely.

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