User avatar
Zoedyn
Topic Author
Posts: 687
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:46 pm

The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:55 am

The release of Q1 financial results for AA, DL and UA recently told very different stories concerning how the Pacific market performed, as shown by the charts below (culled from their respective Q1 reports)

Whether in PRASM or in yield, the Pacific market strikes the eye in the negative for UA, esp when compared with its peer network competitors AA and DL

So, anything went wrong with UA's approach to the Pacific market? What do you think UA should do to reverse the less than satisfying situation there? Any thoughts? (BTW, feel free to leave yr thoughts here if you got anything else to say regarding other regions' Q1 performance of the US3)

Image
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12194
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:51 am

Interesting stats.

On something of a tangent, while I'm not surprised at all by the comparatively juggernaut earnings that AA gets from LatAm; I'm sorta shocked that they take in THAT much less revenue than DL/UA over the Atlantic, especially now that they have US' combined eastern hubs adding to their number.

Then again, I guess the reliance on BA, who offers TATL to everywhere that's anywhere, balances that off.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
adambrau
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:22 am

Zoedyn wrote:
The release of Q1 financial results for AA, DL and UA recently told very different stories concerning how the Pacific market performed, as shown by the charts below (culled from their respective Q1 reports)

Whether in PRASM or in yield, the Pacific market strikes the eye in the negative for UA, esp when compared with its peer network competitors AA and DL

So, anything went wrong with UA's approach to the Pacific market? What do you think UA should do to reverse the less than satisfying situation there? Any thoughts? (BTW, feel free to leave yr thoughts here if you got anything else to say regarding other regions' Q1 performance of the US3)

Image



Some factors come int play that might explain UA's numbers:

1. Adding SFO and LAX nonstops to SIN - originally loads may have light out of LAX.
2. Dropping SFO to Xian and Hangzhou which may have been poor performers.
3. Capacity went up 3% which is similar to AA but Delta took a cut. United has more capacity on it's metal to Asia than Delta and AA is just really getting going. Whereas UA has had a large presence since it bought Pan Am's Pacific operations in 1985.
4. Dr Dao probably led to some temporary book-aways.
5. Like Delta, retiring the 747's that were increasingly unreliable may have hurt numbers.
6. Chinese carriers adding lots of capacity at good fares may put pressure on yields.
7. Slow Polaris rollout may be affecting some high value customers especially those 777's with the 2-4-2 business class layout. United claims a new Polaris seat-configured plane every 10 days until 2020 so again that could help.

Adam
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
codc10
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:04 am

Guam.

Right now GUM is the biggest drag on UA’s Pacific network. On the earnings call, it was acknowledged that if GUM is backed out, the Pacific region results were positive. It’s hoped that the headwinds are temporary, but the company is still restructuring the operation to reduce capacity and costs.

Other items cited above, specifically Dao and the Polaris rollout, are highly speculative and, in my view, nonfactors.
 
QXAS
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:25 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
codc10 wrote:
Guam.

Right now GUM is the biggest drag on UA’s Pacific network. On the earnings call, it was acknowledged that if GUM is backed out, the Pacific region results were positive. It’s hoped that the headwinds are temporary, but the company is still restructuring the operation to reduce capacity and costs.

Other items cited above, specifically Dao and the Polaris rollout, are highly speculative and, in my view, nonfactors.

GUM has seemed like a strange hub for UA to have. If it’s not making money what prevents them from drawing it back? Maybe have Star carriers such as NH to Asia, keep the Air Mike routes but scrap the rest? Very few people are transiting through GUM. So if the O&D can’t support the hub and it’s bleeding, what keeps them there? I’m extremely ignorant when it comes to the GUM operation so an informative response would be very helpful.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
jfk777
Posts: 6953
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:01 pm

United is also the biggest US3 airline to the PRC. China Eastern, Air China and China Southern fill seats on their Pacific flights at cheap fares. United also has to battle with Korean Air and its ICN hub and ambitions.
 
Kashmon
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:08 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:02 pm

AA also has stronger relationships with its partners- JL neutralizes NH
and CX carries more TPAC seats than any other carrier all AA flights plus AA accesses most of Asia via codeshare beyond HK
CA and UA are not close
CZ is now in bed with AA as well....
OZ and UA are not close
SQ and UA are not close

DL stands on its own in Japan
KE does to DL what CX does for AA ( KE-DL stronger)
CZ and MU - close with DL

UA just needs friends for feed
and not fake Star Alliance friends who really do not seem to like UA
 
jayunited
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:06 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
The release of Q1 financial results for AA, DL and UA recently told very different stories concerning how the Pacific market performed, as shown by the charts below (culled from their respective Q1 reports)

Whether in PRASM or in yield, the Pacific market strikes the eye in the negative for UA, esp when compared with its peer network competitors AA and DL

So, anything went wrong with UA's approach to the Pacific market? What do you think UA should do to reverse the less than satisfying situation there? Any thoughts? [i](BTW, feel free to leave yr thoughts here if you got anything else to say regarding other regions' Q1 performance of the US3)


The numbers are looking at a comparison of Q1 2018 vs Q1 2017. Last year UA still had 744's flying many routes across the Pacific from SFO, UA was serving secondary Chinese markets today the only one that has survived is CTU, from NRT to GUM UA was utilizing 2 domestic 772 and 1 B738 daily and from Guam we were servicing a lot more cities from that hub in 2017 compared to 2018. One of the biggest noticeable changes is the 2 daily 772 on GUM-NRT-GUM route has been replaced with 2 B738s, that is a huge drop is capacity. The drop in demand started when tensions starting raising between the U.S. and North Korea. From Guam UA has ended service between Guam and almost every major city in Japan and we ceased serviced from GUM to PVG. UA started making moves late in 2017 to tackle their over exposure in Guam and in those secondary Chinese cities, so as Q2, Q3 and Q4 2018 results are announced I think you will see UA's numbers on par with DL and AA. UA is still a very strong player in the the Pacific its just that our gamble on those secondary markets didn't pay off and Guam is in the process of being right sized.
Last edited by jayunited on Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
codc10
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:07 pm

QXAS wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
codc10 wrote:
Guam.

Right now GUM is the biggest drag on UA’s Pacific network. On the earnings call, it was acknowledged that if GUM is backed out, the Pacific region results were positive. It’s hoped that the headwinds are temporary, but the company is still restructuring the operation to reduce capacity and costs.

Other items cited above, specifically Dao and the Polaris rollout, are highly speculative and, in my view, nonfactors.

GUM has seemed like a strange hub for UA to have. If it’s not making money what prevents them from drawing it back? Maybe have Star carriers such as NH to Asia, keep the Air Mike routes but scrap the rest? Very few people are transiting through GUM. So if the O&D can’t support the hub and it’s bleeding, what keeps them there? I’m extremely ignorant when it comes to the GUM operation so an informative response would be very helpful.


From time to time, GUM has been a huge moneymaker for the airline, and by all accounts the Micronesia routes like the Island Hopper remain lucrative. The Japan market has suffered, as has inbound Guam tourism (aside from South Korea), due to threats from North Korea, the strength of the USD, and inexpensive, more attractive tourist options elsewhere in the region.

In the 80s/90s, as the Japanese economy peaked, the Guam operation was Continental's most valuable asset.
 
azstar
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:25 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:14 pm

UA put all its eggs in the SFO-Pacific market, moving its main hub operation there. If you fly into SFO regularly, you know the unreliability of that airport. When I worked at UA, feeder flights into SFO were delayed by hours, or cancelled, almost daily. I spent my morning reaccommodating transpacific passengers who had been booked on UA connecting flights to HKG, NRT, SEL, SIN etc on other airlines who had flights later in the day. That's a huge revenue drain.
Last edited by azstar on Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Kashmon
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:08 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:15 pm

azstar wrote:
UA put all its eggs in the SFO-Pacific market, moving its main hub operation there. If you fly into SFO regularly, you know the unreliability of that airport. When I worked at UA, feeder flights into SFO were delayed by hours, or cancelled, almost daily. I spent my morning reaccommodating transpacific passengers who had been booked on UA connecting flights to HKG, NRT, SEL, SIN etc on other airlines who had flights later in the day. That's a huge revenue drain.

not to mention

the Asian airlines send their best products to SFO for some reason, making it even harder for UA
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:15 pm

Any thoughts on GUM tourism hurting due to situation in NK? Didn't they specifically say they would hit Guam at one point. Might have hurt tourism some. Granted, people in the region are used to NK being wacky but that was a bit more specific of a threat. I also wonder if GUM helps with gov't contracts especially in IAD. By having GUM, they get X% more gov't contracts for IAD so the losses are worth it to some degree. I know people will say business are in business to make money but every company has to do some horse trading.
 
BobbyPSP
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:29 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:19 pm

Kashmon wrote:
AA also has stronger relationships with its partners- JL neutralizes NH
and CX carries more TPAC seats than any other carrier all AA flights plus AA accesses most of Asia via codeshare beyond HK
CA and UA are not close
CZ is now in bed with AA as well....
OZ and UA are not close
SQ and UA are not close

DL stands on its own in Japan
KE does to DL what CX does for AA ( KE-DL stronger)
CZ and MU - close with DL

UA just needs friends for feed
and not fake Star Alliance friends who really do not seem to like UA


True for UA and Singapore but that slightly improved last year. However, I do believe they work a lot with Asiana and connections via Seoul. Check availability to many cities UA does not serve, say BKK for one, and ANA, OZ and EVA show up a lot.

Fares were so low during the winter; I was seeing some as low as $500-600!
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1018
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:21 pm

How times change. I remember how strong Pan Am was in the Pacific and then UA bought Pan Am's great network. What a head start in Asia for UA. I think what really hurts UA is that they are in the middle - they are not the cheap route like the Chinese nor are they the premium carrier like SQ, CX, KE. So where is there bread and butter. I mean they were flying those horrible 747s (with that crazy J class config) for soooo long. It just starts to kill your brand. I guess the Chinese carriers have really killed yield to those pax that are not captive (oe even worse, UA had to discount flights a lot to all pax)
 
jayunited
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:21 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Any thoughts on GUM tourism hurting due to situation in NK? Didn't they specifically say they would hit Guam at one point. Might have hurt tourism some. Granted, people in the region are used to NK being wacky but that was a bit more specific of a threat. I also wonder if GUM helps with gov't contracts especially in IAD. By having GUM, they get X% more gov't contracts for IAD so the losses are worth it to some degree. I know people will say business are in business to make money but every company has to do some horse trading.


I don't want to jump to any conclusions but looking back to 2016 and the beginning of 2017 demand was strong between Japan and Guam which is why UA utilized 2 domestic 772 in addition to a daily 738 on our GUM-NRT-GUM route. But as tension rose and threats started being hurled our load factors dropped especially on all our Japan-Guam routes. How much did the tensions and threats of hitting Guam hurt tourism on the tiny island, I don't know. But I do know our load factors dropped off a cliff we went from sending out full domestic 772s twice daily to sending out 772 with 80-110 people on the flight. It was dramatic and it all happened very quickly which left UA no choice but to pull those aircraft off the route and replace them with 738s. At one point the reduction was supposed to be temporary at least that is what I was hearing at Willis Tower. However I remember on another thread on this very topic a UA pilot posted they were hearing and being told by their union the downguage would not be temporary but it would be permanent.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1066
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:27 pm

azstar wrote:
UA put all its eggs in the SFO-Pacific market, moving its main hub operation there. If you fly into SFO regularly, you know the unreliability of that airport. When I worked at UA, feeder flights into SFO were delayed by hours, or cancelled, almost daily. I spent my morning reaccommodating transpacific passengers who had been booked on UA connecting flights to HKG, NRT, SEL, SIN etc on other airlines who had flights later in the day. That's a huge revenue drain.


That’s not new and has nothing to do with relative quarterly results.

To the poster who says AA+JL is the same as UA+ NH that isn’t true either. UA is far larger to Japan than AA including onward connections.
 
jetero
Posts: 4457
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:35 pm

This is the exact quote from the earnings call transcript (not that it shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt):

Andrew Nocella: Well, I think Atlantic is going to lead the way. Atlantic is seeing really good demand in both cabins, so we're really pleased by that. So Atlantic should be our strongest international entity, followed by Pacific in the quarter. We've made the appropriate changes in Guam, so that's no longer RASM negative for us. In fact, it's RASM positive going forward. China looks very good. China has been good for the last two quarters. Prior to that, they had a number of negative quarters, and China looks good going forward.

Latin America is fine, but it's the weakest of the three international entities. And that really is, I think, a big part about the holiday shift. The holiday shift for Easter, I think, had a – has the bigger impact in the United network on the Latin American division than the Pacific division, for example. So I would expect, while Latin had a great Q1, driven by the holiday shift, sequentially, it will be lower in Q2, as we would expect it to be, because of that. So overall, Atlantic, first; Pacific, second; Latin, third.


https://seekingalpha.com/article/416386 ... transcript
 
BobbyPSP
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:29 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:52 pm

azstar wrote:
UA put all its eggs in the SFO-Pacific market, moving its main hub operation there. If you fly into SFO regularly, you know the unreliability of that airport. When I worked at UA, feeder flights into SFO were delayed by hours, or cancelled, almost daily. I spent my morning reaccommodating transpacific passengers who had been booked on UA connecting flights to HKG, NRT, SEL, SIN etc on other airlines who had flights later in the day. That's a huge revenue drain.


Agree! The RJ flights are the first to go on ATC flow control. I'm currently in Tucson and only used SFO-Asia last year if I could get to SFO the night before. Much easier and less stressful to take the morning flight to LAX (sadly UA dropping it).
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4313
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:53 pm

azstar wrote:
UA put all its eggs in the SFO-Pacific market, moving its main hub operation there. If you fly into SFO regularly, you know the unreliability of that airport. When I worked at UA, feeder flights into SFO were delayed by hours, or cancelled, almost daily. I spent my morning reaccommodating transpacific passengers who had been booked on UA connecting flights to HKG, NRT, SEL, SIN etc on other airlines who had flights later in the day. That's a huge revenue drain.


Perhaps they should have a westbound pacific bank that departs later in the evening, to catch all the delayed pax
mercure f-wtcc
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5184
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:15 pm

OP presented three data sets which can only be compared in regional revenue (if one does the math for AA) and change in yield. UA and AA showed yield but DL did not. UA had a decline in Pacific yield but grew capacity while DL shrank to a yield improvement. None showed stage-length-adjusted yield (adjustment methods are dubious, but none is worse); none showed profit by region.

Recent exec discussion has identified domestic capacity as the problem. IMHO, 40 CR2s won't fix it but 20 used 319s might help.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
727200
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:31 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:16 pm

Anyone who thinks that AA or DL are catching or caught UA in the Pacific has been breathing too much jet exhaust. DL had a chance but squandered the NW route structure, stayed too long with a hub at NRT, now is playing catch-up to UA. As for AA, they are a distant 3rd to both of the big guys.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:17 pm

There is some light for UA in the Pacific, launching SFO - PPT, and making SFO - AKL year-round. Here's hoping it continues.

Cheers,

C.
 
United1
Posts: 3803
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:23 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
The release of Q1 financial results for AA, DL and UA recently told very different stories concerning how the Pacific market performed, as shown by the charts below (culled from their respective Q1 reports)

Whether in PRASM or in yield, the Pacific market strikes the eye in the negative for UA, esp when compared with its peer network competitors AA and DL

So, anything went wrong with UA's approach to the Pacific market? What do you think UA should do to reverse the less than satisfying situation there? Any thoughts? (BTW, feel free to leave yr thoughts here if you got anything else to say regarding other regions' Q1 performance of the US3)

Image


On thing to keep in mind when reviewing these stats is there isn't a commonly accepted way to split revenue between an airlines domestic and international network. So while UA may show weakness in a particular segment stat the only apple to apple comparison you can make is UA to UA. If you are looking at the entire airline you can make a UA vs AA vs DL comparison, if you are just looking at the Pacific you can't compare UA with AA or DL.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Sightseer
Posts: 922
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:54 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
UA and AA showed yield but DL did not.

Only AA posted its yield. UA and DL just showed the change from 1Q17.

727200 wrote:
DL had a chance but squandered the NW route structure, stayed too long with a hub at NRT

At the time of the merger, NW's route structure in the Pacific was the NRT hub. How could DL both squander it and stay with it too long?
 
ual763
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:55 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Any thoughts on GUM tourism hurting due to situation in NK? Didn't they specifically say they would hit Guam at one point. Might have hurt tourism some. Granted, people in the region are used to NK being wacky but that was a bit more specific of a threat. I also wonder if GUM helps with gov't contracts especially in IAD. By having GUM, they get X% more gov't contracts for IAD so the losses are worth it to some degree. I know people will say business are in business to make money but every company has to do some horse trading.


I know Kim Jong Un is probably blowing wind up everyone's ass, but the big news story today is that Kim Jong Un and the South Korean President have just announced complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula. Will be interesting to now see the results this has on Japanese traffic to/from Guam.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
COSPN
Posts: 1720
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:58 pm

Delta left Guam in January and will leave Saipan and Palau in June so that will help ..
 
User avatar
idp5601
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:09 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:06 pm

Kashmon wrote:
azstar wrote:
UA put all its eggs in the SFO-Pacific market, moving its main hub operation there. If you fly into SFO regularly, you know the unreliability of that airport. When I worked at UA, feeder flights into SFO were delayed by hours, or cancelled, almost daily. I spent my morning reaccommodating transpacific passengers who had been booked on UA connecting flights to HKG, NRT, SEL, SIN etc on other airlines who had flights later in the day. That's a huge revenue drain.

not to mention

the Asian airlines send their best products to SFO for some reason, making it even harder for UA

Simple, really - lots of premium demand in SFO.
 
subramak1
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:21 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:20 pm

Kashmon wrote:
azstar wrote:
UA put all its eggs in the SFO-Pacific market, moving its main hub operation there. If you fly into SFO regularly, you know the unreliability of that airport. When I worked at UA, feeder flights into SFO were delayed by hours, or cancelled, almost daily. I spent my morning reaccommodating transpacific passengers who had been booked on UA connecting flights to HKG, NRT, SEL, SIN etc on other airlines who had flights later in the day. That's a huge revenue drain.

not to mention

the Asian airlines send their best products to SFO for some reason, making it even harder for UA


SFO must be in the top 10 markets with premium demand. So this makes sense.

Subu
Last edited by subramak1 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:33 pm

jetero wrote:
This is the exact quote from the earnings call transcript (not that it shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt):

Andrew Nocella: Well, I think Atlantic is going to lead the way. Atlantic is seeing really good demand in both cabins, so we're really pleased by that. So Atlantic should be our strongest international entity, followed by Pacific in the quarter. We've made the appropriate changes in Guam, so that's no longer RASM negative for us. In fact, it's RASM positive going forward. China looks very good. China has been good for the last two quarters. Prior to that, they had a number of negative quarters, and China looks good going forward.

Latin America is fine, but it's the weakest of the three international entities. And that really is, I think, a big part about the holiday shift. The holiday shift for Easter, I think, had a – has the bigger impact in the United network on the Latin American division than the Pacific division, for example. So I would expect, while Latin had a great Q1, driven by the holiday shift, sequentially, it will be lower in Q2, as we would expect it to be, because of that. So overall, Atlantic, first; Pacific, second; Latin, third.


https://seekingalpha.com/article/416386 ... transcript


Wow, this is fascinating stuff. The "China looks very good" comment? Probably the first such executive statement I've seen. When you consider the low fares in some of these markets, that is a striking statement.

The Europe statement is also interesting. It suggests we can expect targeted growth in UAL Europe. We can guesstimate profit margin from some of these comments together with capacity changes.
 
jetero
Posts: 4457
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:13 pm

Flighty wrote:
Wow, this is fascinating stuff. The "China looks very good" comment? Probably the first such executive statement I've seen. When you consider the low fares in some of these markets, that is a striking statement.

The Europe statement is also interesting. It suggests we can expect targeted growth in UAL Europe. We can guesstimate profit margin from some of these comments together with capacity changes.


Not sure how much I believe, to be honest, as a fair and even-handed assessment of the situation, but yes, I believe airlines use these calls to "cushion" the effect of capacity expansion.

Not too long ago, Scott Kirby called DEN "the most profitable hub," which was a surprise to almost everyone, including many equity analysts, ahead of sustained capacity expansion there.

Then it was about the connecting small markets ahead of new service to places like COU, as if 2 CRJ flights a day there was the key to profitability. In the absence of such statements, I'm sure many on Wall St would be scratching their heads.

Now they're saying the energy industry has turned around, to justify capacity expansion at IAH.

I agree with your assessment re the Atlantic and impending expansion.

It's not just UA--DL did it, too, with the NYC, SEA, and LAX expansions. How many times have we heard airlines say "performing ahead of expectations," without any relative baseline? Not saying they're deliberately "lying," but I'm sure they're being selective with which metrics they're using and what statements they make. And they tend to get a free pass on such statements, even from industry insiders.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2495
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:20 pm

ual763 wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
Any thoughts on GUM tourism hurting due to situation in NK? Didn't they specifically say they would hit Guam at one point. Might have hurt tourism some. Granted, people in the region are used to NK being wacky but that was a bit more specific of a threat. I also wonder if GUM helps with gov't contracts especially in IAD. By having GUM, they get X% more gov't contracts for IAD so the losses are worth it to some degree. I know people will say business are in business to make money but every company has to do some horse trading.


I know Kim Jong Un is probably blowing wind up everyone's ass, but the big news story today is that Kim Jong Un and the South Korean President have just announced complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula. Will be interesting to now see the results this has on Japanese traffic to/from Guam.


Looking at the statistics:

https://www.guamvisitorsbureau.com/rese ... statistics

Japanese tourists number to Guam had been going down way before Kim Jong-un even come into power (just look at those YoY results from way back in 2012 or so, for example), and before he made those threats to Guam. South Koreans are definitely the group that dominates the growth to GUM anyway, although air market wise I would say it won't be too high yielding with all the LCCs on the route.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1720
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:29 pm

Guam is a one US carrier market the island has about 170,000 people.. so having DL and UA fighting it out there was a bit silly .. but that’s the airline biz Delta has moved on.. so now we can see the true Guam numbers in Q3 and Q4
 
global1
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:33 pm

Keep in mind that the recently approved DL/KE joint venture will be rolling out soon. It promises to have a significant impact on the TPAC competitive landscape.
ICN will become the 'AMS/CDG' of the Pacific in the DL network.
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:22 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:00 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Interesting stats.

On something of a tangent, while I'm not surprised at all by the comparatively juggernaut earnings that AA gets from LatAm; I'm sorta shocked that they take in THAT much less revenue than DL/UA over the Atlantic, especially now that they have US' combined eastern hubs adding to their number.

Then again, I guess the reliance on BA, who offers TATL to everywhere that's anywhere, balances that off.


I too was surprised by AA on transatlantic. One thing to note, though, is since the merger with US, is that so much of our transatlantic flying has become seasonal. JFK-EDI, JFK-DUB, JFK-FCO, ORD-CDG, ORD-MAN, ORD-FCO, ORD-BCN, ORD-VCE, ORD-DUB, CLT-BCN, CLT-MAD, CLT-CDG, DFW-AMS, DFW-FCO, and some of the new destinations out of PHL are all seasonal, plus some of the frequencies on flights to LHR are decreased in the winter. I’d expect the numbers to be much higher in the peak season.
 
User avatar
SFOA380
Posts: 561
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:35 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:21 pm

subramak1 wrote:
Kashmon wrote:
azstar wrote:
UA put all its eggs in the SFO-Pacific market, moving its main hub operation there. If you fly into SFO regularly, you know the unreliability of that airport. When I worked at UA, feeder flights into SFO were delayed by hours, or cancelled, almost daily. I spent my morning reaccommodating transpacific passengers who had been booked on UA connecting flights to HKG, NRT, SEL, SIN etc on other airlines who had flights later in the day. That's a huge revenue drain.

not to mention

the Asian airlines send their best products to SFO for some reason, making it even harder for UA


SFO must be in the top 10 markets with premium demand. So this makes sense.

Subu


There are probably 25-30 non-Star Alliance foreign carriers between SFO-OAK-SJC... Contrary to the myth that SFO is a "Fortress-Hub", this would never happen without massive O&D demand.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:15 pm

727200 wrote:
Anyone who thinks that AA or DL are catching or caught UA in the Pacific has been breathing too much jet exhaust. DL had a chance but squandered the NW route structure, stayed too long with a hub at NRT, now is playing catch-up to UA. As for AA, they are a distant 3rd to both of the big guys.


I read every post and I dont think anyone is suggesting that. UA is the strongest in the Pacific but as the chart indicates, doesnt mean a thing when it comes to earnings. DL will always be looking in the rearview mirror when it comes to earnings when compared to its two biggest rivals so really, what's the big deal about TPAC flying when at the end of the day it drags you down financially. DL and Korean means more for profits then UA flying their own metal all over the Pacific.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:23 pm

jetero wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Wow, this is fascinating stuff. The "China looks very good" comment? Probably the first such executive statement I've seen. When you consider the low fares in some of these markets, that is a striking statement.

The Europe statement is also interesting. It suggests we can expect targeted growth in UAL Europe. We can guesstimate profit margin from some of these comments together with capacity changes.


Not sure how much I believe, to be honest, as a fair and even-handed assessment of the situation, but yes, I believe airlines use these calls to "cushion" the effect of capacity expansion.

Not too long ago, Scott Kirby called DEN "the most profitable hub," which was a surprise to almost everyone, including many equity analysts, ahead of sustained capacity expansion there.

Then it was about the connecting small markets ahead of new service to places like COU, as if 2 CRJ flights a day there was the key to profitability. In the absence of such statements, I'm sure many on Wall St would be scratching their heads.

Now they're saying the energy industry has turned around, to justify capacity expansion at IAH.

I agree with your assessment re the Atlantic and impending expansion.

It's not just UA--DL did it, too, with the NYC, SEA, and LAX expansions. How many times have we heard airlines say "performing ahead of expectations," without any relative baseline? Not saying they're deliberately "lying," but I'm sure they're being selective with which metrics they're using and what statements they make. And they tend to get a free pass on such statements, even from industry insiders.


Yes they use careful weasel words that are entirely nonbinding. "good" doesn't mean "above average P&L margin." It can mean the rate of loss has declined. It might even mean the rate of increase in losses has lessened. But, here it sounds like they are making money in China. (although he didn't say that). That still surprises the bleep out of me.
 
jetero
Posts: 4457
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:29 pm

Flighty wrote:
jetero wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Wow, this is fascinating stuff. The "China looks very good" comment? Probably the first such executive statement I've seen. When you consider the low fares in some of these markets, that is a striking statement.

The Europe statement is also interesting. It suggests we can expect targeted growth in UAL Europe. We can guesstimate profit margin from some of these comments together with capacity changes.


Not sure how much I believe, to be honest, as a fair and even-handed assessment of the situation, but yes, I believe airlines use these calls to "cushion" the effect of capacity expansion.

Not too long ago, Scott Kirby called DEN "the most profitable hub," which was a surprise to almost everyone, including many equity analysts, ahead of sustained capacity expansion there.

Then it was about the connecting small markets ahead of new service to places like COU, as if 2 CRJ flights a day there was the key to profitability. In the absence of such statements, I'm sure many on Wall St would be scratching their heads.

Now they're saying the energy industry has turned around, to justify capacity expansion at IAH.

I agree with your assessment re the Atlantic and impending expansion.

It's not just UA--DL did it, too, with the NYC, SEA, and LAX expansions. How many times have we heard airlines say "performing ahead of expectations," without any relative baseline? Not saying they're deliberately "lying," but I'm sure they're being selective with which metrics they're using and what statements they make. And they tend to get a free pass on such statements, even from industry insiders.


Yes they use careful weasel words that are entirely nonbinding. "good" doesn't mean "above average P&L margin." It can mean the rate of loss has declined. It might even mean the rate of increase in losses has lessened. But, here it sounds like they are making money in China. (although he didn't say that). That still surprises the bleep out of me.


"In fact, it's RASM positive going forward. China looks very good. China has been good for the last two quarters. Prior to that, they had a number of negative quarters, and China looks good going forward."

=

"PRASM decreases have finally stopped and are starting to increase"?
 
Swadian
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:56 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:52 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Interesting stats.

On something of a tangent, while I'm not surprised at all by the comparatively juggernaut earnings that AA gets from LatAm; I'm sorta shocked that they take in THAT much less revenue than DL/UA over the Atlantic, especially now that they have US' combined eastern hubs adding to their number.

Then again, I guess the reliance on BA, who offers TATL to everywhere that's anywhere, balances that off.


How big is AA in South America compared to the Atlantic or the Pacific. I would think much less in the Atlantic due to most flights being seasonal.

Atlantic and Pacific yields are only getting worse with LCCs and the Chinese airlines respectively.
John Wang, Founder and President of Inland Streamliner.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3066
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:03 pm

Interesting, how did this happen? For many years the Pacific flights printed money for United. There was a reason why UA bought it from Pan Am those many years ago. Increased competition? A new Open Skies agreement?
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3244
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:47 pm

I think this thread is indicative of the problem with snapshot analysis. Based on one quarter you may think UA is lagging. But if you look at the past few years, you'll see the strength they have in the Pacific. DL shrank considerably in the Pacific over the past couple years (for a while it was around a 10% average YOY decline in ASMs). Only now have they been able to reverse PRASM declines, and it cost them a significant chunk of their ASMs to do it. AA also was getting hit hard in the Pacific not long ago. Nothing special from them either.

UA has also faced the same macroeconomic struggles in the Pacific, particularly to China where capacity was outpacing demand. But the difference for UA is that they were and still are significantly growing while facing similar PRASM results. That's a much better result in the long-run. Networks aren't built overnight, and UA is smart by leveraging their biggest strength which is the Pacific. Small PRASM declines aren't a problem at this point.
 
WingsOfLove
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:54 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:24 pm

jetero wrote:
Andrew Nocella: China looks very good.


Great news and supported by similar statements at AA / DL.

United should exponentially profit from improving revenue in this key market.
 
DeSpringbokke
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:27 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:46 pm

I'm not totally buying this argument that UA's Pacific flights are potentially the airline's achilles heel. As mentioned earlier, take out the GUM operating, UA is doing fine. I doubt UA is finished reducing GUM but they aren't going to do away with it entirely as Delta is about to do with NRT due to the Island Hopper service and other Government Contracts. Now the 747s have all been retired and the 787-9 orders are finished, UA is in a much better position going forward in the region than they were a few years ago. UA has double daily flights to SIN from their connecting hubs at LAX/SFO, whereas SQ still has one that is dependent entirely on Bay Area demand. UA cut its loses with Secondary China and is just sticking to SFO-CTU, albeit less than daily. Does UA need to become closer to CA? Yes, probably.

My main question for UA right now is what will they and OZ do with the DL-KE going into effect. Unlike the two other Trans-Pacific JVs, the Delta/Korean Air JV will nonexistent competition from UA or AA. AA and UA both have a single 787-9 flight to ICN and that's it. AA and KE briefly codeshared on DFW-ICN as AA was a rare winner over KE in the DFW-SEL market. Its remarkable that UA, the strongest of the US3 to Asia and its not even close can only muster one daily flight to ICN while they have two to SIN, where they aren't close with SQ, and three to SYD, where they have no help on the SYD end. In fact, due to AA's high density 787-9, UA has the fewest ASMs to ICN out of the US3.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:00 am

william wrote:
Interesting, how did this happen? For many years the Pacific flights printed money for United. There was a reason why UA bought it from Pan Am those many years ago. Increased competition? A new Open Skies agreement?


The OP has made 188 posts in less than one month on a.net, most of them revealing he is a "fan" of a certain airline that is a competitor of UA. So take that into account with the threads he starts. That said, one quarter out of decades of UA dominance in the Pacific doesn't mean anything. Both demand and competition will change over time in the Pacific and the airline that dominates the market (UA) will be most affected -- good and bad -- compared to airlines like AA (which is a lesser player in the Pacific) and DL (which is reduced to a bit player in the Pacific). UA will see more highs and lows than the others and in the long run, unless the Pacific market disappears, UA will continue to dominate and print money in the Pacific, even with an off month or quarter here or there.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12194
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:42 am

william wrote:
Interesting, how did this happen? For many years the Pacific flights printed money for United.

Price out a trip between LAX/SFO and China, then you tell us.

During peak competitive season, you can find roundtrip all-in fares on Chinese carriers under $500 for Y and $1800 for J, total. Can barely fly to Orlando for that, in either class. Yet it's not uncommon.




And it's not just China, but over the last decade or so, the explosion of competition has triggered a massive dive in TPAC fares.

When I first came here, it wasn't uncommon for Y tix to Australia/NZ and Hong Kong to approach the $2000s, and J was in the 5figures.

Now? I scored an UPGRADEABLE fare to AKL for $225, roundtrip, two years ago.
Thus, with a few extra miles + 300 upgrade fee, I got J roundtrip on AA for less than $600 all in! I don't even fly that airline, but still had enough mileage to make it work. We went to AKL for the extended weekend, just for the heck of it.

And the craziest thing?
QF started it, and offering that fare for days. Then AA followed. It wasn't a mistake, nor a quick sale! :eek:

See for yourselves:
https://www.theflightdeal.com/2016/04/1 ... all-taxes/
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12194
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:01 am

SFOA380 wrote:
There are probably 25-30 non-Star Alliance foreign carriers between SFO-OAK-SJC... Contrary to the myth that SFO is a "Fortress-Hub", this would never happen without massive O&D demand.

:checkmark: This.

That term gets tossed around far too loosely.

Granted there is no official defining authority, but realize that the term's background came from airline operations so pervasive that they were essentially able to block out competitors from amassing sufficient mass to effect the market beyond the whims of the holding carrier.

To call even the likes of DFW and ATL "fortress hubs" is something of a stretch, as there's always been a secondary carrier with just enough profile to provide a market alternative in most ways to the main carrier, especially combined with the offerings provided by foreign flags.

The "real" fortress hubs were the (now borderline extinct) '90s era small-market large-hubs ([email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], etc) with minimal competition, little to no LoCo options, and comparatively outrageous fares to everywhere.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
jakubz
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 9:48 pm

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:11 am

Betteridge's law of headlines.... is my gut response....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but among the US3, UAL has 52% of the revenue vs 53% the previous year. DAL was 28%, even from the year before, and AAL 19% from 18%. To me, that doesn't look to be any more of an Achilles heel this year than compared to last year.
KORD>RJAA>KORD day trip? Why not! The beauty of non-reving.
Yes, I use ICAO codes
Flown: PA-28, PA-38
Passenger on: A319/A320 737, 747-400, 757, 767, 777, 787-8/9
Finally got on a 747!

I work for United Airlines, but I don't speak for the company.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:59 am

IPFreely wrote:
The OP has made 188 posts in less than one month on a.net, most of them revealing he is a "fan" of a certain airline that is a competitor of UA. So take that into account with the threads he starts. That said, one quarter out of decades of UA dominance in the Pacific doesn't mean anything. Both demand and competition will change over time in the Pacific and the airline that dominates the market (UA) will be most affected -- good and bad -- compared to airlines like AA (which is a lesser player in the Pacific) and DL (which is reduced to a bit player in the Pacific). UA will see more highs and lows than the others and in the long run, unless the Pacific market disappears, UA will continue to dominate and print money in the Pacific, even with an off month or quarter here or there.


DL is reduced to a bit player over the Pacific? Would really love to hear your logic behind that. Is it because they don't have nearly as many of their own planes flying TPAC as UA? Just wondering what makes you say that. It surely can't be the # of destinations served between DL and its partners to points over the Pacific. Yet, DL earns tons more money than UA does so enlighten me and tell me what can DL do differently so there not a 'BIT' player over the Pacific. Remember, being bigger does not necessarily mean that your better! DL flies every possible variation of its widebody fleet over the Pacific. They can easily match demand to the right sized plane instead of having to do what UA does and that is flying the biggest and most expensive plane and then having to fill seats with trash fares.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6691
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:26 pm

jumbojet wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
The OP has made 188 posts in less than one month on a.net, most of them revealing he is a "fan" of a certain airline that is a competitor of UA. So take that into account with the threads he starts. That said, one quarter out of decades of UA dominance in the Pacific doesn't mean anything. Both demand and competition will change over time in the Pacific and the airline that dominates the market (UA) will be most affected -- good and bad -- compared to airlines like AA (which is a lesser player in the Pacific) and DL (which is reduced to a bit player in the Pacific). UA will see more highs and lows than the others and in the long run, unless the Pacific market disappears, UA will continue to dominate and print money in the Pacific, even with an off month or quarter here or there.


DL is reduced to a bit player over the Pacific? Would really love to hear your logic behind that. Is it because they don't have nearly as many of their own planes flying TPAC as UA? Just wondering what makes you say that. It surely can't be the # of destinations served between DL and its partners to points over the Pacific. Yet, DL earns tons more money than UA does so enlighten me and tell me what can DL do differently so there not a 'BIT' player over the Pacific. Remember, being bigger does not necessarily mean that your better! DL flies every possible variation of its widebody fleet over the Pacific. They can easily match demand to the right sized plane instead of having to do what UA does and that is flying the biggest and most expensive plane and then having to fill seats with trash fares.

If Delta is so great in the Pacific, how come they can't fill more than a 763 from SEA-NRT and can't even have a daily HKG service? Not to mention they totally eliminated the only Skyteam link between New York and Tokyo, one of the world's largest air markets, and don't even serve NRT from all of their hubs like UA does. Having partners and flying all types of your fleet anywhere is great and all, but in terms of sheer size over the Pacific for the sake of a pissing match, it has to be a combination of ASMs/destinations on your own metal/ frequency/brand loyalty/etc...
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: The Pacific market becoming UA's Achilles heel, esp in comparison with AA and DL?

Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:36 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
If Delta is so great in the Pacific, how come they can't fill more than a 763 from SEA-NRT and can't even have a daily HKG service? Not to mention they totally eliminated the only Skyteam link between New York and Tokyo, one of the world's largest air markets, and don't even serve NRT from all of their hubs like UA does. Having partners and flying all types of your fleet anywhere is great and all, but in terms of sheer size over the Pacific for the sake of a pissing match, it has to be a combination of ASMs/destinations on your own metal/ frequency/brand loyalty/etc...


Exactly correct. By dismantling the NRT hub and having no partners in Japan, DL has abandoned NYC-Tokyo and the whole Japanese market. With relatively few flights, less than weekly service to some key destinations, and third-rate partner airlines, DL has become a bit player in the Pacific -- a far cry from the days of Northwest Orient. Their strategy in the Pacific is now as a "virtual airline" that attaches their flight numbers to Korean Air flights.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos