AirbusA322
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The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:36 pm

One key part in the Virgin America brand removal was obviously the costs of doing business with the ‘Virgin’ trademark, often rumoured to be worth millions in fees to the Virgin Group.

Could VS rebadge itself ‘V Atlantic’ and essentially keep its current profile but eliminate the Virgin Group associated costs? It’s operating in a deeply competitive market that shows no signs of slowing, and most definitely is not making significant movement on the profit front.

Obviously Virgin Australia is much different, operating in a highly profitable and monopoly domestic market, whilst starting to come out of its expensive transformation, is starting to show signs of making serious cash again (underlying profit $150-200m expected this Financial year). We have seen Virgin try the long haul ‘V Australia’ many years ago with its 77W fleet but soon rebranded, so the name does have legs of some sort whether that’s Australia of Atlantic. But this one highly unlikely to rename itself after spending large amounts of cash just doing so.
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
Jerry123
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:24 pm

Honestly can't see them changing the name it's too well known. Also does Virgin Atlantic actually pay for the Virgin name?
 
sq256
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:39 pm

VA, despite finally starting to make money again, still needs to get its house in order after years of losses. Also, the shareholder makeup should preferably be sorted as soon as possible considering HNA and EY are both in debt (and there has been newspaper articles of both considering selling out of their VA stakes to fix their own financial problems).

SQ are content with their stake and haven't really shown any interest in extending their stake. DL are the elephant in the room and are probably the ones to keep an eye on, with an article back in 2016 stating they haven't ruled out a VA stake in the future (despite not stating interest at the time of NZ's exit) and DL already have involvement with VA via their Trans-Pac JV (along with co-locating in T2/T3 at LAX).
 
f4f3a
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:04 pm

I don’t think virgin have quite the brand presence they used to have . A lot of virgin brands have closed down in recent years. They might as well rebrand as delta U.K.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:09 pm

IATA code for Virgin Atlantic is VS on VA
 
anstar
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:57 pm

Jerry123 wrote:
Honestly can't see them changing the name it's too well known. Also does Virgin Atlantic actually pay for the Virgin name?


Yes. Virgin Atlantic pay royalties the Virgin Group for using the Virgin name as does Virgin Australia.
 
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Channex757
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:04 pm

anstar wrote:
Jerry123 wrote:
Honestly can't see them changing the name it's too well known. Also does Virgin Atlantic actually pay for the Virgin name?


Yes. Virgin Atlantic pay royalties the Virgin Group for using the Virgin name as does Virgin Australia.

Every Virgin business pays royalties up the chain. It's one of the ways money is routed up the tree to where Branson himself sits.

The Virgin Group owns very little outright. Just like with the airlines, they have operating partners. One correction from the OP above.....V Australia and Pacific Blue were airlines launched without the Virgin name as Singapore Airlines was part owner of VS at the time and the Virgin Group was forbidden from launching new airlines in Asia-Pacific using the trademark. Virgin Australia would have been competing against the part owner of the airline business.

Once this changed, and Singapore Airlines no longer had this veto, so did the name of Pacific Blue and V Australia.
 
jfk777
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:31 pm

Sadly Richard Branson decided to sell to Delta and Air France controlling interest in his UK airline. Why? He already cashed out years ago when he sold 49 percent to Singapore Air for a billion dollars. Was selling another 31 percent to Air France a good idea for few hundred million pounds. While Delta is a well managed airline it’s ability to maximize Virgin Atlantic is questionable. Delta bought singapore’s Interest for access to Heathrow. Delta clipped Virgin’s flights to Tokyo for more flights to its Us hubs but virgin still flies to Hong Kong and Shanghai. Virgin needs to be left alone to be virgin and not “delta UK”.
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:40 pm

From what I know, VS and DL has a JV on the Trans-Atlantic market. Also, although Virgin Atlantic is a well known and recognized brand. It is simply not the brand that it used to be. All the image of a "fun" airline seems to be gone.

They still have no real feeder traffic in Europe and additionally, the perks they used to have on their upper class etc. can now be enjoyed on other carriers as well. Additionally the B747's and A346, although on their way out are getting old. the 787-9's have engine issues and lastly out of Gatwick, Norwegian is becoming a real "nuisance" to them
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:48 pm

I don't know that the "Virgin" brand is actually worth that much anymore; it certainly hasn't helped any business - airline or otherwise - turn into a lasting, financial powerhouse.
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LAXLHR
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:48 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
From what I know, VS and DL has a JV on the Trans-Atlantic market. Also, although Virgin Atlantic is a well known and recognized brand. It is simply not the brand that it used to be. All the image of a "fun" airline seems to be gone.

They still have no real feeder traffic in Europe and additionally, the perks they used to have on their upper class etc. can now be enjoyed on other carriers as well. Additionally the B747's and A346, although on their way out are getting old. the 787-9's have engine issues and lastly out of Gatwick, Norwegian is becoming a real "nuisance" to them


VS might not be what it use to be, but its the go to airline for many many Brits!
BA JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL QQ UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR PG MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN PC LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 332 333 342 343 380
 
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lightsaber
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:18 pm

f4f3a wrote:
I don’t think virgin have quite the brand presence they used to have . A lot of virgin brands have closed down in recent years. They might as well rebrand as delta U.K.

While I might not be enthralled with Virgin, they do OK with the 40+ crowd. The issue is anyone younger thinks about Digital music. Those stores are mostly long gone. Sadly for branding, Delta UK is a better choice. In particular with the license fees.

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bunumuring
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:48 am

Hey guys,
The Virgin brand is doing okay here in Australia.
Obviously the airline brand is the most prominent but there are some much smaller sub-brands that are still around. Virgin Atlantic never developed to its complete potential in the Australian market, I believe, and definitely did not leverage its 'familial ties' with VA to the maximum and mutually-beneficial extent possible.
I think that the future of the Virgin brand in Australia is assured, and the development and broadening of the Velocity FF / rewards points brand will ensure that.
Cheers,
Bunumuring
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LAX772LR
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:48 am

sq256 wrote:
SQ are content with their stake and haven't really shown any interest in extending their stake. DL are the elephant in the room and are probably the ones to keep an eye on, with an article back in 2016 stating they haven't ruled out a VA stake in the future (despite not stating interest at the time of NZ's exit) and DL already have involvement with VA via their Trans-Pac JV (along with co-locating in T2/T3 at LAX).

You seem to be continually confusing VA and VS.

DL has a j/v with both, but it's VS who's co-located with DL at LAX, not VA.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
sq256
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:14 am

LAX772LR wrote:
sq256 wrote:
SQ are content with their stake and haven't really shown any interest in extending their stake. DL are the elephant in the room and are probably the ones to keep an eye on, with an article back in 2016 stating they haven't ruled out a VA stake in the future (despite not stating interest at the time of NZ's exit) and DL already have involvement with VA via their Trans-Pac JV (along with co-locating in T2/T3 at LAX).

You seem to be continually confusing VA and VS.

DL has a j/v with both, but it's VS who's co-located with DL at LAX, not VA.


VA has since moved their check-in desks to DL's T2 in LAX. Passengers have the option of transferred by bus to TBIT from T2 or walking to TBIT.

https://www.virginaustralia.com/cs/grou ... _html.html
 
SotonLAX
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:31 am

I think Virgin is still a popular brand in the UK, and the airline has a very good reputation. I think in the last few years it becoming ‘uncool’ as it attempts to go mainstream.

However, given the negative press of Virgin brands of late with the Virgin Care sueing the NHS, the poor customer service offered by Virgin Media and the fiasco with Virgin Trains on the East Coast Mainline - the brand is really being dragged through the mud. Therefore, I think this is impacting Virgin Atlantic as the everyday person doesn’t know about the different levels of ownership ect.

But Delta UK has no chance of success, US airlines in the U.K. have an awful reputation plus Delta is probably has the weakest brand image of the three here.
 
ltbewr
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:21 am

I took Virgin in their first year, with only 1 aircraft EWR-LGW-EWR when it was a 'LCC'. Last November, I took EWR-LHR-EWR on UA. That was a decision of price at the time I bought my ticket as VS was more expensive and their higher price didn't seem to offer a significant difference in quality of service or room in coach. Virgin's USA airline brand is gone. For years I have use Virgin's phone service here in the USA due to favorable pricing but as they eventually became part of Sprint and are going to an i-Phone only service and phase out Android phones, and in turn Sprint may become part of T-Mobile, it is likely I will have to go to another carrier in a year or 2. Others have noted that Virgin name businesses in the UK have become connected to some serious issues. The Virgin brand has pretty much disappeared in the USA market.

It seems to me that Virgin's brand is losing most of its luster, is something from the 1980's generation and not catching on in the millennial generation. Richard Branson has become more like Donald Trump, licensing his Virgin brand name and 'aura' (although one far less tainted than Trump's) to make money on rather than run companies. To me DL has bought into VS to gain slots at LHR, JFK, EWR, LAX and other airports in the TATL markets and to me eventually the Virgin Atlantic name will disappear in a few years to save license fees.
 
LHRFlyer
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:37 am

The Virgin Atlantic brand is still very strong in the UK. Certainly much more so than US airline brands.

Sir Richard Branson has not done much in public for Virgin Atlantic for quite some time. Clearly, Sir Richard disembarking an inaugural flight with a half-dressed model in his arms is long out of step with the times.

In some respects Virgin Atlantic is rediscovering the old Virgin mojo with Afternoon Tea from Eric Lanlard, a pop-up igloo in its Clubhouse at Christmas etc.

The big question is how Virgin can regain long-term profitability. A loss of £28.4m compared to an operating profit of £1,754m for BA is extraordinarily stark.
 
anstar
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am

LAXLHR wrote:

VS might not be what it use to be, but its the go to airline for many many Brits!


True - However they are on a trend of carrying less passengers each year for the last few years whilst their competitors have been growing (Tui, Thomas cook, etc).
I believe EZY is #1 in the UK, BA#2, Tui #3. Vs i think are around 6th largest by pax carried and as mentioned above VS can't do it profitably with a loss last year and a loss predicted again this year at a time when oil has been low and is now rising.
 
skipness1E
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:34 pm

Let me be devil’s advocate for a mo.

They tried to compete with BA. Admirable.
BA got into bed with AA and the old cartels were rebranded as “alliances”. BA/AA is an incredibly powerful JV at LHR.
At the same time LHR is no longer a closed shop, DL, US, CO and NW all got in, and then 3/4 got merged away into even more powerful competitors, all in “alliances”. SRB was always anti alliance, out of step with the way the world was going. So they went from filling 747s as one of a limited choice out of LHR to competing with a whole load of new entrants. The A346 as their core long haul was too big for the new world, and as it turned out, not as efficient as the B77W.

To turn that lot around they needed Delta, they needed focus, they needed to stop competing with “big bad BA” in all their markets and focus where they were strong, i.e. to the US. It was clear when YYZ, YVR and ORD (twice) were dropped that cherry picking BA routes on volume was no longer working.
So 787s and A359s right sized operating a JV with DL seems like a good strategy at last. But luck isn’t with then, they’ve been 2 789s down for months. The product is really good IMHO, crews motivated, route network is what it can be nowadays. However the failure to crack MAN properly with A333s and then bringing ANOTHER subfleet of old A332s is a step back to the bad old ways. If they are flying under 50 aircraft with A346/A333/A332/A359/B789/B744 when the next downturn hits, and they might be given the transition to the A359, God help them.
 
c933103
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:09 pm

LAXLHR wrote:
OSL777FLYER wrote:
From what I know, VS and DL has a JV on the Trans-Atlantic market. Also, although Virgin Atlantic is a well known and recognized brand. It is simply not the brand that it used to be. All the image of a "fun" airline seems to be gone.

They still have no real feeder traffic in Europe and additionally, the perks they used to have on their upper class etc. can now be enjoyed on other carriers as well. Additionally the B747's and A346, although on their way out are getting old. the 787-9's have engine issues and lastly out of Gatwick, Norwegian is becoming a real "nuisance" to them


VS might not be what it use to be, but its the go to airline for many many Brits!

But when they're doing great as VS not Virgin, why don't they change it into some other name that won't cost money?
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pdt2f
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:04 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I took Virgin in their first year, with only 1 aircraft EWR-LGW-EWR when it was a 'LCC'. Last November, I took EWR-LHR-EWR on UA. That was a decision of price at the time I bought my ticket as VS was more expensive and their higher price didn't seem to offer a significant difference in quality of service or room in coach. Virgin's USA airline brand is gone. For years I have use Virgin's phone service here in the USA due to favorable pricing but as they eventually became part of Sprint and are going to an i-Phone only service and phase out Android phones, and in turn Sprint may become part of T-Mobile, it is likely I will have to go to another carrier in a year or 2. Others have noted that Virgin name businesses in the UK have become connected to some serious issues. The Virgin brand has pretty much disappeared in the USA market.

It seems to me that Virgin's brand is losing most of its luster, is something from the 1980's generation and not catching on in the millennial generation. Richard Branson has become more like Donald Trump, licensing his Virgin brand name and 'aura' (although one far less tainted than Trump's) to make money on rather than run companies. To me DL has bought into VS to gain slots at LHR, JFK, EWR, LAX and other airports in the TATL markets and to me eventually the Virgin Atlantic name will disappear in a few years to save license fees.


I’m 30 and I couldn’t care less about the Virgin brand, it’s a relic from 25-30 years ago. Your description of how millennials view Richard Branson is correct, he’s a 60-something billionaire who owns islands, etc, but he’s not the youthful rock-star/take-it-to-the-man type of person he once was. I think the Virgin brand was a really cool brand at one point in time, but that time is over and they’ll have to find some way to staying relevant and profitable in the future without relying on a out of date public view.
“The sky peoclaims God’s glory - the vault of heaven, the Hand of Him who made it.”

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azz767
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:01 pm

To be fair the Virgin Atlantic brand is probably one of the most modern and relevant right now. In the UK at least the association with RB is not as focussed as it was before they went hand in hand. The big billboard titles were a brilliant change, the refitted 747’s are extremely good in any class and the whole experience when flying VS for me is modern crisp and a great standard of service. The only thing right now that may drag the appeal down is the 330-200’s with the old AB interiors, which will be refitted in the autumn. VS’s problem is the Heathrow ops just can’t compare to BA for scale and feed. The beach fleet and the destinations they serve from LGW and MAN are their bread and butter and have been their best performers for years. I also hear the MAN operation is slowly but surely getting there so we may see them develop that area. Obviously the jv with delta has given them more bums on seats over the Atlantic but like others have said, coming at a cost of other routes like Tokyo
 
milemaster
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:15 pm

pdt2f wrote:
I’m 30 and I couldn’t care less about the Virgin brand, it’s a relic from 25-30 years ago. Your description of how millennials view Richard Branson is correct, he’s a 60-something billionaire who owns islands, etc, but he’s not the youthful rock-star/take-it-to-the-man type of person he once was.


So you are the spokesperson for all millenials?
 
skipness1E
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:18 pm

c933103 wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
OSL777FLYER wrote:
From what I know, VS and DL has a JV on the Trans-Atlantic market. Also, although Virgin Atlantic is a well known and recognized brand. It is simply not the brand that it used to be. All the image of a "fun" airline seems to be gone.

They still have no real feeder traffic in Europe and additionally, the perks they used to have on their upper class etc. can now be enjoyed on other carriers as well. Additionally the B747's and A346, although on their way out are getting old. the 787-9's have engine issues and lastly out of Gatwick, Norwegian is becoming a real "nuisance" to them


VS might not be what it use to be, but its the go to airline for many many Brits!

But when they're doing great as VS not Virgin, why don't they change it into some other name that won't cost money?

Trade an annual fee for the loss of a 33 year old long established brand? That would be brave indeed.
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FabDiva
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:19 pm

I think a lot of under 40s probably have a less rose tinted view of virgin. Virgin Records were bought into EMI, Virgin Megastores were rebadged as Zavvi and went bust, Virgin Trains are nothing special on the West Coast and East Coast has failed, Virgin Media (cable/phone/internet) isn't great, Virgin Care didn't do itself any favours.

So yes I think a lot of millenials don't have the positive impression of Virgin/Branson that Generation X did.
 
pdt2f
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:42 pm

milemaster wrote:
pdt2f wrote:
I’m 30 and I couldn’t care less about the Virgin brand, it’s a relic from 25-30 years ago. Your description of how millennials view Richard Branson is correct, he’s a 60-something billionaire who owns islands, etc, but he’s not the youthful rock-star/take-it-to-the-man type of person he once was.


So you are the spokesperson for all millenials?


Yes I am.

I should have said, “...is correct as far as I can tell, from who I know.” My apologies for presuming to speak for you.
“The sky peoclaims God’s glory - the vault of heaven, the Hand of Him who made it.”

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lightsaber
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:36 pm

FabDiva wrote:
I think a lot of under 40s probably have a less rose tinted view of virgin. Virgin Records were bought into EMI, Virgin Megastores were rebadged as Zavvi and went bust, Virgin Trains are nothing special on the West Coast and East Coast has failed, Virgin Media (cable/phone/internet) isn't great, Virgin Care didn't do itself any favours.

So yes I think a lot of millenials don't have the positive impression of Virgin/Branson that Generation X did.

That is my impression. Over age 40 thinks it is a strong brand. Under age 40 thinks the stunts with bikini babes was sexist and uncool.

Branson isn't a rebel anymore. He is the establishment. I think it is time. Perhaps V Atlantic. The Virgin fees are too high for a low margin business.

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JackMeahoff
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:41 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:

They still have no real feeder traffic in Europe and additionally, the perks they used to have on their upper class etc. can now be enjoyed on other carriers as well. Additionally the B747's and A346, although on their way out are getting old.


That's funny, I would fly Virgin because of their 747s, not in spite of them.

Why is the 787 a status symbol while the 747 a laughingstock? 787 has 9 seats scrunched into an 18 foot tube, 747 has 10 seats in a 21 foot tube and higher ceilings. Funny how so many aviation nerds think this mediocre plastic jet (and its European counterpart) are the second coming.
 
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JackMeahoff
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:50 pm

lightsaber wrote:

Branson isn't a rebel anymore. He is the establishment.



That he is.

You can't look at him in the news without thinking Bohemian Grove, Bilderberg and lizard people.

lightsaber wrote:

I think it is time. Perhaps V Atlantic. The Virgin fees are too high for a low margin business.



He would probably file suit anyways. V is for Virgin.
 
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Richard28
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:44 pm

For me it would seem that VS have been happy to rest on their laurels, and have not innovated as much as they used to.

Back in the day it was easier to innovate when other airlines did not have seat back TV's etc. However now, differences between airlines are much more subtle, particularly in Y class.

You could argue they have fallen behind most of their peers too (BA excepted) in J class - I remember when the Upper Class Suite came out, it was quite revolutionary at the time, however since then, Upper Class has not seen any substantial change, it seems they have given up innovating, which was one of the key ingredients of their brand.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:49 pm

azz767 wrote:
The only thing right now that may drag the appeal down is the 330-200’s with the old AB interiors, which will be refitted in the autumn. VS’s problem is the Heathrow ops just can’t compare to BA for scale and feed. The beach fleet and the destinations they serve from LGW and MAN are their bread and butter and have been their best performers for years. I also hear the MAN operation is slowly but surely getting there so we may see them develop that area. Obviously the jv with delta has given them more bums on seats over the Atlantic but like others have said, coming at a cost of other routes like Tokyo


The next phase of development at MAN should be interesting. The first phase (VS take over routes to DL's main east coast hubs) appears to be complete, with some additional p2p flying (SFO/BOS).

How they can expand MAN to support more intensive flying to the hubs, reduce seasonality of demand and add some more west and possibly Midwest flying remains and interesting challenge. The addition of routes to points East adds another layer of intrigue to the picture, and whether these can support TATL flying and compete effectively (obviously not to the same scale) with the MEB3 is another interesting possibility.
 
skipness1E
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:33 pm

My worry is that they’ve had to get a subfleet for MAN. Again.
I doubt they’ll go east tbh, they’ve dropped NRT and BOM (again) from LHR and JNB, LOS, PVG, HKG, DEL and DXB are all that remain that aren’t North Atlantic routes. The focus is on the US and rightly so IMHO.
 
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:04 am

Im 40 exactly and will continue to fly Virgin Brands even if that means going out of my way to do so. I'm flying the bubble LGW-MCO in a few weeks. I think you're all crazy if you think Virgin Atlantic is not a good brand, and any other name would be ridiculous. Meanwhile British Airways IMO has gone from Le Crème de la crème to cheap shite
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Obzerva
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:12 am

I think it is time. Perhaps V Atlantic. The Virgin fees are too high for a low margin business.

[/quote]

He would probably file suit anyways. V is for Virgin.[/quote]

Not 100% sure on that, Virgin Blue in its infancy wasn’t allowed to use the Virgin name outside of Australia, so they used their long haul operation as V Australia with no issues
 
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Channex757
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:14 am

ltbewr wrote:
It seems to me that Virgin's brand is losing most of its luster, is something from the 1980's generation and not catching on in the millennial generation. Richard Branson has become more like Donald Trump, licensing his Virgin brand name and 'aura' (although one far less tainted than Trump's) to make money on rather than run companies. To me DL has bought into VS to gain slots at LHR, JFK, EWR, LAX and other airports in the TATL markets and to me eventually the Virgin Atlantic name will disappear in a few years to save license fees.

Delta bought SQ's Virgin Atlantic holdings at a discount on what SQ paid as they just wanted out.

DL got that 49.9% for the price of six slot-pairs at Heathrow.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:57 am

As a younger adult in the UK (23) Virgin doesnt really appeal to any people of my age group. Its too expensive. We fly Norwegian, Ryanair, Easyjet etc.... when me and some mates were booking flights around Europe most of the guys didnt know KLM or Iberia even existed when I asked to check them out. I did fly Air France to Paris with the Mrs this year though.
 
c933103
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:58 am

lightsaber wrote:
FabDiva wrote:
I think a lot of under 40s probably have a less rose tinted view of virgin. Virgin Records were bought into EMI, Virgin Megastores were rebadged as Zavvi and went bust, Virgin Trains are nothing special on the West Coast and East Coast has failed, Virgin Media (cable/phone/internet) isn't great, Virgin Care didn't do itself any favours.

So yes I think a lot of millenials don't have the positive impression of Virgin/Branson that Generation X did.

That is my impression. Over age 40 thinks it is a strong brand. Under age 40 thinks the stunts with bikini babes was sexist and uncool.

Branson isn't a rebel anymore. He is the establishment. I think it is time. Perhaps V Atlantic. The Virgin fees are too high for a low margin business.

Lightsaber

Do we know how much they pay each year?
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
moa999
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:44 am

I somewhat disagree with the comment about Virgin in Australia.

The 'Virgin' brand has never really succeeded.
And doesn't fit the push to take VA upmarket.

Virgin Mobile is reportedly likely to be closed (now fully owned by Optus but was an MVNO). Virgin Money is tiny and we never had much of Music.
The only one I would call a success is Virgin Active (gyms).

If VAs various owners ever agree (and this is somewhat doubtful) i wouldn't be surprised to see both Virgin and Tiger (given it's also an orphan brand) rebranded at some point.
 
ELBOB
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:44 am

c933103 wrote:
Do we know how much they pay each year?


Until March 2014, zero. There was a reorganisation that year when a new licensing deal was arranged, they now license the brand from VAL TM Ltd which is intermediate between the airline group and Virgin itself and which does nothing except manage the rights for the airline group.

VAL TM reported a 2016 income of just under £18 million from trademark rights for Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd and Virgin Holidays Ltd, both of which are subsidiaries of Virgin Atlantic Ltd. According to the accounts that amount is based on a proportion of revenues, subject to a minimum.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: The Future of the Virgin of Airlines

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:40 pm

c933103 wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
VS might not be what it use to be, but its the go to airline for many many Brits!

But when they're doing great as VS not Virgin, why don't they change it into some other name that won't cost money?


Brand recognition. Plus the matter of SRB still owning a stake in VS.

JackMeahoff wrote:
Why is the 787 a status symbol while the 747 a laughingstock? 787 has 9 seats scrunched into an 18 foot tube, 747 has 10 seats in a 21 foot tube and higher ceilings. Funny how so many aviation nerds think this mediocre plastic jet (and its European counterpart) are the second coming.


I also don't recall 747's being grounded worldwide fairly recently either. For most people (avgeek's or otherwise), the 787 comes across as another twin engine plane. The 747 may be getting on, but it's still iconic. Wasn't it BA/Willie Walsh who said a few years ago that they recognise how popular the 747 is with passengers?

skipness1E wrote:
My worry is that they’ve had to get a subfleet for MAN. Again.
I doubt they’ll go east tbh, they’ve dropped NRT and BOM (again) from LHR and JNB, LOS, PVG, HKG, DEL and DXB are all that remain that aren’t North Atlantic routes. The focus is on the US and rightly so IMHO.


The same "sub-fleet for MAN" is also operating out of LGW this summer. For what it's worth, the schedules have recently been updated for winter ops out of MAN which show a mix of A333/747 for the ATL and JFK routes.

As for going east, the latest rumour is DEL in a tie-up with Jet Airways, but that appears to have gone quiet. They could do really well with a MAN-BKK route, but can't see it happening given they don't serve BKK from London already.

I agree though that they're right to focus a lot of their MAN efforts on US routes as there's opportunities there, particularly if US Pre-Clearance is brought in at MAN. Their main direct rival on a lot of their MAN-US routes is Thomas Cook.

Samrnpage wrote:
As a younger adult in the UK (23) Virgin doesnt really appeal to any people of my age group. Its too expensive. We fly Norwegian, Ryanair, Easyjet etc.... when me and some mates were booking flights around Europe most of the guys didnt know KLM or Iberia even existed when I asked to check them out. I did fly Air France to Paris with the Mrs this year though.


It goes to show how successful some brands are at convincing people that they're the best option, even though there are examples where they are not the cheapest or best option depending on the circumstance. This is not a dig at your friends, but all the more fool those who don't look at the whole market and always default to a select few on the assumption they are the only/cheapest option (fully accept there are legitimate reasons why some won't touch particular airlines).
 
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william
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:29 pm

FabDiva wrote:
I think a lot of under 40s probably have a less rose tinted view of virgin. Virgin Records were bought into EMI, Virgin Megastores were rebadged as Zavvi and went bust, Virgin Trains are nothing special on the West Coast and East Coast has failed, Virgin Media (cable/phone/internet) isn't great, Virgin Care didn't do itself any favours.

So yes I think a lot of millenials don't have the positive impression of Virgin/Branson that Generation X did.


And with some of us older than 40. What someone stated about Virgin being a 80s MTV thing is spot on. That's where my memory of RB and Virgin comes from, he was the outsider, the cool and hip CEO. Now he is "one of them" or the old guy trying to be cool. Not a good look to millenials.

I wandered what happened to Virgin Records. Virgin used to have a rocking mega store in Time Square NYC. When I went last year I saw a discount souvenir shop in its place. Pretty sad how the Virgin brand has fallen.

If RB owns 51% of Virgin Atlantic, than its a given that Virgin will keep paying those fees until RB dies or sells.
 
AirbusA322
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:30 pm

moa999 wrote:
I somewhat disagree with the comment about Virgin in Australia.

The 'Virgin' brand has never really succeeded.
And doesn't fit the push to take VA upmarket.

Virgin Mobile is reportedly likely to be closed (now fully owned by Optus but was an MVNO). Virgin Money is tiny and we never had much of Music.
The only one I would call a success is Virgin Active (gyms).

If VAs various owners ever agree (and this is somewhat doubtful) i wouldn't be surprised to see both Virgin and Tiger (given it's also an orphan brand) rebranded at some point.


VA has 30% of the Business Market so they have most definitely succeeded in taking it upmarket. Fly the Business product on the wide body and then fly the same on QF. One is leaps ahead of the other. The problem with VA is it’s debt. Few issues in the years gone with hedging and other large one of costs in relation to its transformation and the ATR/Tiger. That has been the main focus on the last few years, and this is the first year we have seen some positing underlying numbers. 150-200m underlying profit for the year, they are definitely back in the right direction. looking at the last few results they are paying off debt with any positive earnings.

I wonder if they will delay the MAX’s as this will be further drain on cash. They are probably needed in order to get rid of some 15-20yr old 737s and refleet Tiger.
 
moa999
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:10 pm

Not saying that Borghetti hasn't succeeded in taking the brand upmarket, and I'll agree the 777 seat beats QFs 330 (albeit only just) and catering is very good, but at least on Perth routes VA are continually subbing in the much poorer 737s.
QF also wins generally on domestic narrowbody catering, lounge network and obviously international network.

But what I was saying was that Virgin's youthful, upstart, challenger branding no longer fits with Virgin Australia, it worked well with Virgin Blue.

And with Branson no longer having a meaningful stake, and VAHs various airline shareholders, plus the orphaned LCC Tiger brand (with the Singapore ops now Scoot), and schism with Air NZ, now would be a reasonable time for a wholesale rebranding of both ops.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:48 pm

skipness1E wrote:
My worry is that they’ve had to get a subfleet for MAN. Again.
I doubt they’ll go east tbh, they’ve dropped NRT and BOM (again) from LHR and JNB, LOS, PVG, HKG, DEL and DXB are all that remain that aren’t North Atlantic routes. The focus is on the US and rightly so IMHO.


I take where you're coming from, but I'm pretty sure the A332 subfleet was culaised by the issues with the B789 fleet issues at LHR (and the desire to defend the flying programme at MAN and LGW).

Assuming the above is accurate, the question is what they choose to do with the A332 once the B789 issues are resolved.

That they are apparently refurbishing the interior to VS standard indicates that they intend to keep them for a decent 4/5 year period.

What I'm less clear about is why they intend to keep them. As I see it, the possible options are:

1 - the "bespoke to MAN" configured A332 fit the profile of VS's MAN operation (at least on certain routes).

2 - the A332 are a cheap capacity stopgap until the B789 issues are resolved or the A35K are online.

3 - the A332 are a less risky way to develop the MAN operation by using them to open and develop riskier routes than the more expensive A333.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:48 pm

AirbusA322 wrote:
moa999 wrote:
I somewhat disagree with the comment about Virgin in Australia.

The 'Virgin' brand has never really succeeded.
And doesn't fit the push to take VA upmarket.

Virgin Mobile is reportedly likely to be closed (now fully owned by Optus but was an MVNO). Virgin Money is tiny and we never had much of Music.
The only one I would call a success is Virgin Active (gyms).

If VAs various owners ever agree (and this is somewhat doubtful) i wouldn't be surprised to see both Virgin and Tiger (given it's also an orphan brand) rebranded at some point.


VA has 30% of the Business Market so they have most definitely succeeded in taking it upmarket. Fly the Business product on the wide body and then fly the same on QF. One is leaps ahead of the other. The problem with VA is it’s debt. Few issues in the years gone with hedging and other large one of costs in relation to its transformation and the ATR/Tiger. That has been the main focus on the last few years, and this is the first year we have seen some positing underlying numbers. 150-200m underlying profit for the year, they are definitely back in the right direction. looking at the last few results they are paying off debt with any positive earnings.

I wonder if they will delay the MAX’s as this will be further drain on cash. They are probably needed in order to get rid of some 15-20yr old 737s and refleet Tiger.


You have an incredibly rose tinted view of Virgin Australia.

1) 30% of the corporate market sounds reasoable, except that they didn’t start at zero. Virgin Blue Gad somewhere like 20% corporate market share, so Borghetti destroyed hundreds of millions of dollars of shareholder value for very, very little return.

2) As an ancillary to the above, VA operate at a yield disadvantage to QF in every single market. That is more problematic now than before given more financial management and cost control mean that VA’s cost base has increased significantly over the past 6 years, whereas Qantas’ restructuring has been so successful that QF have almost lowered their costs to VA’s level. VA are now stuck with high costs and low revenue against a much more aggressive competitor than they expected. To be fair I don’t think anyone could have guessed how succsssful Qantas’ transformation would be.

3) Looking at the respective A330 products one is definitely not ‘leaps and bounds’ ahead of the other. The seats are almost identical other than that VA are angled whereas QF face forward. I will concede that the product on the 777s is much better than what QF have on the A380 and 747 fleets. Looking at the domestic market though VA are increasingly moving A330s off the transcon routes. This is problematic for them as they do not offer the same service on the 737 as on the A330. A 737 red eye doesn’t even give you a blanket in Business Class! Qantas not only have a greater proportion of transcon flights operated by A330s, they also offer the exact same soft product on the 737 fleet as the A330s, its jus the seat that changes.

4) You cannot say with a straight face that VA is comparable with QF for domestic catering. Only one airline serves hot food on flights under 3 hours, and even the ‘snack’ on non-meal flights is a lot more substantial on QF. Last week VA gave me a muesli bar on a flight that would have qualified for a meal on QF. Additionally VA’s alcohol policy where it is only free between 5-7 is nothing less than mean spirited and stingy IMHO, when QF it’s all flights after 4.

5) On that, QF lounges are generally much better across the board.

$200 mn is a start, don’t get me wrong, but when Qantas is on track to deliver a $1+ bn profit it is too little, too late. When they started this journey in 2010-2011 they were taking it to a sick competitor that wasn’t really in a position to respond. It should have been easy to pick up a few percentage points more market share and build yields from passengers defecting from Qantas. History didn’t work out that way and now Qantas is a leaner and more nimble competitor that has almost entirely erased their cost disadvantage and generates a healthy yield premium. I really don’t see anything for VA to celebrate there.
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redroo
Posts: 491
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:06 pm

I made a comment a while ago on another thread that the virgin brand is a kin to watching your drunk auntie crack onto your mates at the backyard bbq. Sex, flair and glamour may have worked twenty years ago but it’s just embarrassing now.

The virgin brand is not strong in Australia. It’s present but it’s not strong. Is it a Qantas, Telstra, Optus? Not even close.

Are they a good business? Not really. Given the market and the lack of competition they SHOULD be a lot bigger and more profitable. The market is big enough for two big players but for many reasons they are a very distant second. A shame but that’s how it is.

Do I see a future for the virgin brand in Australia? Honestly they are stuck with the brand. They could change it but they can’t afford it and would it make any difference to their business if they did. Probably not.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Tue May 01, 2018 12:30 am

william wrote:
FabDiva wrote:
I think a lot of under 40s probably have a less rose tinted view of virgin. Virgin Records were bought into EMI, Virgin Megastores were rebadged as Zavvi and went bust, Virgin Trains are nothing special on the West Coast and East Coast has failed, Virgin Media (cable/phone/internet) isn't great, Virgin Care didn't do itself any favours.

So yes I think a lot of millenials don't have the positive impression of Virgin/Branson that Generation X did.


And with some of us older than 40. What someone stated about Virgin being a 80s MTV thing is spot on. That's where my memory of RB and Virgin comes from, he was the outsider, the cool and hip CEO. Now he is "one of them" or the old guy trying to be cool. Not a good look to millenials.

I wandered what happened to Virgin Records. Virgin used to have a rocking mega store in Time Square NYC. When I went last year I saw a discount souvenir shop in its place. Pretty sad how the Virgin brand has fallen.

If RB owns 51% of Virgin Atlantic, than its a given that Virgin will keep paying those fees until RB dies or sells.



I'm sorry but there's a gigantic elephant in your room with this statement about Virgin Records, and to fail to mention it, and state fully that Virgin Records failed because of their own actions is 10 words north of ridiculous. Virgin Records no longer exists because NO ONE BUYS MUSIC FROM STORES! Period
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
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william
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Tue May 01, 2018 12:47 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
william wrote:
FabDiva wrote:
I think a lot of under 40s probably have a less rose tinted view of virgin. Virgin Records were bought into EMI, Virgin Megastores were rebadged as Zavvi and went bust, Virgin Trains are nothing special on the West Coast and East Coast has failed, Virgin Media (cable/phone/internet) isn't great, Virgin Care didn't do itself any favours.

So yes I think a lot of millenials don't have the positive impression of Virgin/Branson that Generation X did.


And with some of us older than 40. What someone stated about Virgin being a 80s MTV thing is spot on. That's where my memory of RB and Virgin comes from, he was the outsider, the cool and hip CEO. Now he is "one of them" or the old guy trying to be cool. Not a good look to millenials.

I wandered what happened to Virgin Records. Virgin used to have a rocking mega store in Time Square NYC. When I went last year I saw a discount souvenir shop in its place. Pretty sad how the Virgin brand has fallen.

If RB owns 51% of Virgin Atlantic, than its a given that Virgin will keep paying those fees until RB dies or sells.



I'm sorry but there's a gigantic elephant in your room with this statement about Virgin Records, and to fail to mention it, and state fully that Virgin Records failed because of their own actions is 10 words north of ridiculous. Virgin Records no longer exists because NO ONE BUYS MUSIC FROM STORES! Period


True, you are right, the music market has changed. But it was an incredible store to visit back in the day.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: The Future of Virgin brands in commercial aviation

Tue May 01, 2018 1:21 am

william wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
william wrote:

And with some of us older than 40. What someone stated about Virgin being a 80s MTV thing is spot on. That's where my memory of RB and Virgin comes from, he was the outsider, the cool and hip CEO. Now he is "one of them" or the old guy trying to be cool. Not a good look to millenials.

I wandered what happened to Virgin Records. Virgin used to have a rocking mega store in Time Square NYC. When I went last year I saw a discount souvenir shop in its place. Pretty sad how the Virgin brand has fallen.

If RB owns 51% of Virgin Atlantic, than its a given that Virgin will keep paying those fees until RB dies or sells.



I'm sorry but there's a gigantic elephant in your room with this statement about Virgin Records, and to fail to mention it, and state fully that Virgin Records failed because of their own actions is 10 words north of ridiculous. Virgin Records no longer exists because NO ONE BUYS MUSIC FROM STORES! Period


True, you are right, the music market has changed. But it was an incredible store to visit back in the day.

In there day Virgin stores were a worthy destination.

But you have to be over 40 to think that way. The Hall effect of the music drove the brand value. Napster ended that era. :old:
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