Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
molitvic20
Topic Author
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:33 am

F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 3:04 am

Over the years flying in and out of DEN, Ive noticed Frontier shrinking dramatically... I know United and Southwest basically dominate DEN but why has F9 pushed away.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4848
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 5:11 am

Denver is just too competitive a market and airfares are too low. Frontier wants to make money so they have moved those planes to other less served markets that have higher fares ie make more money.

Denver is simply not large enough for three full sized hubs. It can only support two full hubs which it has now. Frontier returned gates to Denver which allowed delta to move their entire operation from C to A. This gave southwest all of C and United all of B. The other two hubs seem to be flurishing now with frontier barely a problem anymore.

Basic summary of why frontier shrunk : Denver is not large enough to support three hubs. Frontier has the least to gain the other two have large networks and Denver is perfect for connections. They have more to gain out of Denver.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11229
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 1:22 pm

if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
User avatar
SteveXC500
Posts: 600
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:38 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 1:51 pm

stlgph wrote:


The article is almost a year old, so I am wondering, is F9 still sticking to that plan as of May 1st? Sometimes their "growth" seems to be a giant dartboard.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11229
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 2:13 pm

Well since this summer they're bringing on Branson, Calgary, Fargo, Harrisburg, Jackson Hole, Sacramento, Santa Barbara, Savannah, Syracuse, I'd say they're doing something.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 2:51 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Denver is just too competitive a market and airfares are too low. Frontier wants to make money so they have moved those planes to other less served markets that have higher fares ie make more money.

Denver is simply not large enough for three full sized hubs. It can only support two full hubs which it has now. Frontier returned gates to Denver which allowed delta to move their entire operation from C to A. This gave southwest all of C and United all of B. The other two hubs seem to be flurishing now with frontier barely a problem anymore.

Basic summary of why frontier shrunk : Denver is not large enough to support three hubs. Frontier has the least to gain the other two have large networks and Denver is perfect for connections. They have more to gain out of Denver.


Lots of their dart throwing has DEN on the end. BKG, LIT, TUL. They need to work out the connection timing better as some just plain suck and are more in line with what one finds flying international LCCs.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5435
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 2:59 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Denver is just too competitive a market and airfares are too low. Frontier wants to make money so they have moved those planes to other less served markets that have higher fares ie make more money.

Denver is simply not large enough for three full sized hubs. It can only support two full hubs which it has now. Frontier returned gates to Denver which allowed delta to move their entire operation from C to A. This gave southwest all of C and United all of B. The other two hubs seem to be flurishing now with frontier barely a problem anymore.

Basic summary of why frontier shrunk : Denver is not large enough to support three hubs. Frontier has the least to gain the other two have large networks and Denver is perfect for connections. They have more to gain out of Denver.


Lots of their dart throwing has DEN on the end. BKG, LIT, TUL. They need to work out the connection timing better as some just plain suck and are more in line with what one finds flying international LCCs.


Connections for F9 in DEN are a joke
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
caverunner17
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:50 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 2:59 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Denver is just too competitive a market and airfares are too low. Frontier wants to make money so they have moved those planes to other less served markets that have higher fares ie make more money.

Denver is simply not large enough for three full sized hubs. It can only support two full hubs which it has now. Frontier returned gates to Denver which allowed delta to move their entire operation from C to A. This gave southwest all of C and United all of B. The other two hubs seem to be flurishing now with frontier barely a problem anymore.

Basic summary of why frontier shrunk : Denver is not large enough to support three hubs. Frontier has the least to gain the other two have large networks and Denver is perfect for connections. They have more to gain out of Denver.


History has proven that city size doesn't mean much in terms of hubbing. Otherwise, STL and CLE would't have had as much of an issue remaining a hub. F9 does provide a large cost-advantage over WN or UA, and often they're only offering 1-2x daily flights. Denver is big enough area and tourist destination to support a ULCC operation on a small scale.
 
2175301
Posts: 1909
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 3:08 pm

Hmmm... I'm an old Midwest Frequent Flyer (I miss them); and of course my FF program converted to Frontier and I used them for a year or so... But Frontier changed their product, service, and destinations. It has been years since I have taken a flight with them. Frontier used to good service to Denver from Milwaukee. Last time I looked it was a fraction of the previous service.

My last half dozen or so trips to Denver from Milwaukee have been on Southwest (In 90% of cases I fly in and out of Milwaukee, 10% Green Bay).

In a different thread I jumped into a discussion on seat width and how I was willing to pay to get it (and my old Midwest history shows that). I have cut my flying perhaps to 1/3 without Midwest flying out of Milwaukee. Driving is now my travel of choice if I can get there in a day (even a long day).

I with Frontier well... But, they are chasing a different market than I am in. Hope they make it.

Have a great day,
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 3:16 pm

stlgph wrote:
Well since this summer they're bringing on Branson, Calgary, Fargo, Harrisburg, Jackson Hole, Sacramento, Santa Barbara, Savannah, Syracuse, I'd say they're doing something.

They've added 29 destinations vs last July, but they've actually cut 5% of their departures YOY. 65% of their destinations from DEN are now 4 days a week or less.
 
User avatar
Frontier14
Posts: 675
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:14 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 3:22 pm

Frontier was in a position of increasing market erosion from an expanding WN as well as the Denver dominate UA. A summer hail storm, a couple of winter blizzards and the airline was crushed with DEN being its primary and major focal point. The new owners have wisely lessened Frontier's vulnerability to Denver's weather events by shifting a substantial amount of the airlines's flying elsewhere.

DEN is still a hub for F9; but it is significantly smaller than what existed years ago.

Frontier 14
 
User avatar
Frontier14
Posts: 675
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:14 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 3:23 pm

Frontier was in a position of increasing market erosion from an expanding WN as well as the Denver dominate UA. A summer hail storm, a couple of winter blizzards and the airline was crushed with DEN being its primary and major focal point. The new owners have wisely lessened Frontier's vulnerability to Denver's weather events by shifting a substantial amount of the airline's flying elsewhere.

DEN is still a hub for F9; but it is significantly smaller than what existed years ago.

Frontier 14
 
jbpdx
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:37 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 3:29 pm

Midwestindy wrote:

Connections for F9 in DEN are a joke


You mean a 11.5-hour layover in DEN when flying PDX-TPA is unreasonable? :spin:
^
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 3199
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 3:30 pm

One challenge they will have is there is virtually no more connectivity. Buyer beware when booking because they often have crazy long layovers. They have been lucky that WN nor UA responded in PVD but I worry about places like SYR PWM and MDT since their new flights depart DEN at 6am meaning the only connections are those who spend the night in the airport...
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3597
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 3:39 pm

How much connection traffic in DEN does F9 actually do?
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5246
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 3:44 pm

stlgph wrote:
Well since this summer they're bringing on Branson, Calgary, Fargo, Harrisburg, Jackson Hole, Sacramento, Santa Barbara, Savannah, Syracuse, I'd say they're doing something.



And Grand Rapids.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8633
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 4:25 pm

Didn't WN offer to buy F9?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
F9LASDEN
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 4:28 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
One challenge they will have is there is virtually no more connectivity. Buyer beware when booking because they often have crazy long layovers. They have been lucky that WN nor UA responded in PVD but I worry about places like SYR PWM and MDT since their new flights depart DEN at 6am meaning the only connections are those who spend the night in the airport...


F9 does have several flights that would allow passengers to connect to these 6am eastbound flights without spending the night in the airport. They run flights from LAX, LAS, SFO, SEA, and PDX that depart around 1am and arrive in DEN around 4am. These flights allow reasonably short connection times (at highly undesirable times of day, though I don't think that the type of traveler F9 is looking to attract cares much about that as long as the tickets were cheap) and I would think that the combination of daily flights on this schedule from popular destinations in the west and the less-than-daily frequencies to the lower-demand destinations in the east at least gives them a chance to be successful.
Spirit of the West...A Whole Different Animal...Low Fares Done Right
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2232
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 5:24 pm

jbpdx wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Connections for F9 in DEN are a joke


You mean a 11.5-hour layover in DEN when flying PDX-TPA is unreasonable? :spin:


I can think of things to do in Colorado for a few hours. :D
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
IADCA
Posts: 2194
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 5:25 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
jbpdx wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Connections for F9 in DEN are a joke


You mean a 11.5-hour layover in DEN when flying PDX-TPA is unreasonable? :spin:


I can think of things to do in Colorado for a few hours. :D


Might make your second flight significantly more relaxed, too.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 6:29 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
jbpdx wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Connections for F9 in DEN are a joke


You mean a 11.5-hour layover in DEN when flying PDX-TPA is unreasonable? :spin:


I can think of things to do in Colorado for a few hours. :D



Between the hours of 8 pm and 8 am? That's what Branson connections to ORD and AUS require.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11229
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 6:40 pm

Okay. Some cities you can't connect to within a reasonable 90 to 200 minute time so thus, all of Frontier Airlines is failing.

Good to know guys, thanks.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 6:51 pm

jbpdx wrote:
You mean a 11.5-hour layover in DEN when flying PDX-TPA is unreasonable? :spin:


You don't have to take it. It isn't a law. :-)

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
F9LASDEN
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 7:30 pm

mariner wrote:
jbpdx wrote:
You mean a 11.5-hour layover in DEN when flying PDX-TPA is unreasonable? :spin:


You don't have to take it. It isn't a law. :-)

mariner


There’s also the option of the 1 hr 34 min layover in CLE
Spirit of the West...A Whole Different Animal...Low Fares Done Right
 
BobbyPSP
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:29 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 7:48 pm

stlgph wrote:


I’m sorry. This is almost a year old
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 7:53 pm

2175301 wrote:
Hmmm... I'm an old Midwest Frequent Flyer (I miss them); and of course my FF program converted to Frontier and I used them for a year or so... But Frontier changed their product, service, and destinations. It has been years since I have taken a flight with them. Frontier used to good service to Denver from Milwaukee. Last time I looked it was a fraction of the previous service.


Just for the record, Frontier did not buy Midwest - Republic did.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1740
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 8:13 pm

F9LASDEN wrote:
(at highly undesirable times of day, though I don't think that the type of traveler F9 is looking to attract cares much about that as long as the tickets were cheap)
I disagree with this. Everyone cares about that. F9 is largely targeting leisure flyers and families are going to care about a red eye/over night connection. The fares HAVE to be cheaper to try and get some people to put up with it.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11229
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 8:29 pm

BobbyPSP wrote:
stlgph wrote:


I’m sorry. This is almost a year old


....and your point?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
stlgph
Posts: 11229
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 8:30 pm

if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
rj777
Posts: 1807
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 8:49 pm

I wish WN would've bought Frontier instead of AirTran
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 9:30 pm

rj777 wrote:
I wish WN would've bought Frontier instead of AirTran


Why? There wouldn't be a Frontier. It wouldn't be as much fun as it is now and a.netters would have nothing to cheer/comnplain about.

The point is that Southwest could have easily had Frontier but they didn't do their homework and tried to get Frontier on the cheap.

mariner
Last edited by mariner on Tue May 01, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
aeternum nauta
 
F9LASDEN
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 9:31 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
F9LASDEN wrote:
(at highly undesirable times of day, though I don't think that the type of traveler F9 is looking to attract cares much about that as long as the tickets were cheap)
I disagree with this. Everyone cares about that. F9 is largely targeting leisure flyers and families are going to care about a red eye/over night connection. The fares HAVE to be cheaper to try and get some people to put up with it.


Correct. In order for this strategy to work for F9, their fares have to be cheaper than their competitors. For a random date in July, F9 is charging $152 (or $234 with The Perks, which includes a seat selection, checked bag, and carry-on bag) for a LAX-MDT itinerary that involves an overnight LAX-DEN flight and a 6am DEN-MDT flight. On the same date, UA is charging $335 (also with an itinerary that includes a redeye), AA is charging $335, and DL is charging $359. A savings of $100 a person, or up to $400 for a family of 4. While there certainly are travelers (including families traveling for leisure) that would pay more for flights at humane times of the day, I believe that many of the price-sensitive leisure travelers that F9 targets would be willing to take an inhumane itinerary in order to save $100 per person.

FWIW, I've taken F9's 1:55am LAS-DEN flight a few times before and they've been completely full the times I've flown them. I also heard people around me on these flights mention that they were connecting in DEN to places like AUS, MSY, BNA, and DCA, so there are people willing to travel at those times and take layovers from 4:30am-7:00am in DEN. The question is are there enough to make this scheduling strategy successful long-term for F9. I think there are.
Spirit of the West...A Whole Different Animal...Low Fares Done Right
 
Chemist
Posts: 771
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 10:12 pm

Would love to see F9 do some more shrinking.
 
Buddys747
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:33 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Tue May 01, 2018 10:28 pm

F9LASDEN wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
F9LASDEN wrote:
(at highly undesirable times of day, though I don't think that the type of traveler F9 is looking to attract cares much about that as long as the tickets were cheap)
I disagree with this. Everyone cares about that. F9 is largely targeting leisure flyers and families are going to care about a red eye/over night connection. The fares HAVE to be cheaper to try and get some people to put up with it.


Correct. In order for this strategy to work for F9, their fares have to be cheaper than their competitors. For a random date in July, F9 is charging $152 (or $234 with The Perks, which includes a seat selection, checked bag, and carry-on bag) for a LAX-MDT itinerary that involves an overnight LAX-DEN flight and a 6am DEN-MDT flight. On the same date, UA is charging $335 (also with an itinerary that includes a redeye), AA is charging $335, and DL is charging $359. A savings of $100 a person, or up to $400 for a family of 4. While there certainly are travelers (including families traveling for leisure) that would pay more for flights at humane times of the day, I believe that many of the price-sensitive leisure travelers that F9 targets would be willing to take an inhumane itinerary in order to save $100 per person.

FWIW, I've taken F9's 1:55am LAS-DEN flight a few times before and they've been completely full the times I've flown them. I also heard people around me on these flights mention that they were connecting in DEN to places like AUS, MSY, BNA, and DCA, so there are people willing to travel at those times and take layovers from 4:30am-7:00am in DEN. The question is are there enough to make this scheduling strategy successful long-term for F9. I think there are.

I think some of these markets can handle DEN in itself with just O+D. Denver is a very popular destination, especially in the summer. The connections are a bonus! And I know several people that have also done the red eyes into DEN.
 
F9LASDEN
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Wed May 02, 2018 12:14 am

Buddys747 wrote:
F9LASDEN wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I disagree with this. Everyone cares about that. F9 is largely targeting leisure flyers and families are going to care about a red eye/over night connection. The fares HAVE to be cheaper to try and get some people to put up with it.


Correct. In order for this strategy to work for F9, their fares have to be cheaper than their competitors. For a random date in July, F9 is charging $152 (or $234 with The Perks, which includes a seat selection, checked bag, and carry-on bag) for a LAX-MDT itinerary that involves an overnight LAX-DEN flight and a 6am DEN-MDT flight. On the same date, UA is charging $335 (also with an itinerary that includes a redeye), AA is charging $335, and DL is charging $359. A savings of $100 a person, or up to $400 for a family of 4. While there certainly are travelers (including families traveling for leisure) that would pay more for flights at humane times of the day, I believe that many of the price-sensitive leisure travelers that F9 targets would be willing to take an inhumane itinerary in order to save $100 per person.

FWIW, I've taken F9's 1:55am LAS-DEN flight a few times before and they've been completely full the times I've flown them. I also heard people around me on these flights mention that they were connecting in DEN to places like AUS, MSY, BNA, and DCA, so there are people willing to travel at those times and take layovers from 4:30am-7:00am in DEN. The question is are there enough to make this scheduling strategy successful long-term for F9. I think there are.

I think some of these markets can handle DEN in itself with just O+D. Denver is a very popular destination, especially in the summer. The connections are a bonus! And I know several people that have also done the red eyes into DEN.


The large western destinations with red eyes into DEN such as LAX, LAS, SFO, SEA, and PDX can certainly be supported with O+D alone, and I believe that F9 runs these flights with the idea of capturing O+D first and filling remaining seats with connections as a bonus, like you mention. When I first noticed these red eyes on the schedule last summer, I questioned who exactly they might be targeting, but they all appear to be doing somewhat well, even to the point that they added some more destinations to this schedule (they started with LAX, LAS, and SFO last fall and ran them through the winter, and are still running those three while also adding SEA and PDX this summer). It appears to me that they are intentionally scheduling some of the early-morning eastbound flights to places like SYR, MDT, PWM, BUF, JAX, CHS, MYR, and SAV to allow the redeyes to connect to them, run flights along the east coast during the day (BUF-MCO, CHS-PHL, or SYR-RDU, for example), and be back in DEN in enough time to allow connecting passengers to catch the 10pm-ish departures back to the western destinations.

F9 still has a somewhat decent-sized loyal flier base in the DEN area even after the transition from a more traditional carrier to ULCC. They lost some to WN and UA during the transition, but also gained a base of travelers who place price higher on their priority list than things like amenities or frequencies
Spirit of the West...A Whole Different Animal...Low Fares Done Right
 
Buddys747
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:33 am

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Wed May 02, 2018 1:27 am

F9LASDEN wrote:
Buddys747 wrote:
F9LASDEN wrote:

Correct. In order for this strategy to work for F9, their fares have to be cheaper than their competitors. For a random date in July, F9 is charging $152 (or $234 with The Perks, which includes a seat selection, checked bag, and carry-on bag) for a LAX-MDT itinerary that involves an overnight LAX-DEN flight and a 6am DEN-MDT flight. On the same date, UA is charging $335 (also with an itinerary that includes a redeye), AA is charging $335, and DL is charging $359. A savings of $100 a person, or up to $400 for a family of 4. While there certainly are travelers (including families traveling for leisure) that would pay more for flights at humane times of the day, I believe that many of the price-sensitive leisure travelers that F9 targets would be willing to take an inhumane itinerary in order to save $100 PER (Perth - Australia) person.

FWIW, I've taken F9's 1:55am LAS-DEN flight a few times before and they've been completely full the times I've flown them. I also heard people around me on these flights mention that they were connecting in DEN to places like AUS, MSY, BNA, and DCA, so there are people willing to travel at those times and take layovers from 4:30am-7:00am in DEN. The question is are there enough to make this scheduling strategy successful long-term for F9. I think there are.

I think some of these markets can handle DEN in itself with just O+D. Denver is a very popular destination, especially in the summer. The connections are a bonus! And I know several people that have also done the red eyes into DEN.


The large western destinations with red eyes into DEN such as LAX (Los Angeles - International), LAS, SFO, SEA (Seattle - Tacoma International Airport), and PDX can certainly be supported with O+D alone, and I believe that F9 runs these flights with the idea of capturing O+D first and filling remaining seats with connections as a bonus, like you mention. When I first noticed these red eyes on the schedule last summer, I questioned who exactly they might be targeting, but they all appear to be doing somewhat well, even to the point that they added some more destinations to this schedule (they started with LAX (Los Angeles - International), LAS, and SFO last fall and ran them through the winter, and are still running those three while also adding SEA (Seattle - Tacoma International Airport) and PDX this summer). It appears to me that they are intentionally scheduling some of the early-morning eastbound flights to places like SYR, MDT, PWM, BUF, JAX, CHS, MYR, and SAV to allow the redeyes to connect to them, run flights along the east coast during the day (BUF-MCO, CHS-PHL, or SYR-RDU, for example), and be back in DEN in enough time to allow connecting passengers to catch the 10pm-ish departures back to the western destinations.

F9 still has a somewhat decent-sized loyal flier base in the DEN area even after the transition from a more traditional carrier to ULCC. They lost some to WN and UA during the transition, but also gained a base of travelers who place price higher on their priority list than things like amenities or frequencies

A lot of the new markets on the east coast don’t have DEN as an option on any other carrier, so I look forward to these new/returning routes and hopefully they will be successful. The O+D is there , especially if you factor in the bleed to other nearby larger airports. And I didn’t realize until you said it but it does look like quite a few arrivals from DEN take a turn somewhere else on the east then head back to DEN in the late afternoon/early
evening. It will be interesting to see how that works though if the mid turn route doesn’t fare well or it ends sooner. I know for example MDT-RDU is seasonal as is MDT-DEN, so one would assume they will end seasonally at the same time, but who knows. It’s certainly exciting times for F9.
 
F9LASDEN
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: F9 shrinking in DEN?

Wed May 02, 2018 2:23 am

Buddys747 wrote:
F9LASDEN wrote:
Buddys747 wrote:
I think some of these markets can handle DEN in itself with just O+D. Denver is a very popular destination, especially in the summer. The connections are a bonus! And I know several people that have also done the red eyes into DEN.


The large western destinations with red eyes into DEN such as LAX (Los Angeles - International) (Los Angeles - International), LAS, SFO, SEA (Seattle - Tacoma International Airport) (Seattle - Tacoma International Airport), and PDX can certainly be supported with O+D alone, and I believe that F9 runs these flights with the idea of capturing O+D first and filling remaining seats with connections as a bonus, like you mention. When I first noticed these red eyes on the schedule last summer, I questioned who exactly they might be targeting, but they all appear to be doing somewhat well, even to the point that they added some more destinations to this schedule (they started with LAX (Los Angeles - International) (Los Angeles - International), LAS, and SFO last fall and ran them through the winter, and are still running those three while also adding SEA (Seattle - Tacoma International Airport) (Seattle - Tacoma International Airport) and PDX this summer). It appears to me that they are intentionally scheduling some of the early-morning eastbound flights to places like SYR, MDT, PWM, BUF, JAX, CHS, MYR, and SAV to allow the redeyes to connect to them, run flights along the east coast during the day (BUF-MCO, CHS-PHL, or SYR-RDU, for example), and be back in DEN in enough time to allow connecting passengers to catch the 10pm-ish departures back to the western destinations.

F9 still has a somewhat decent-sized loyal flier base in the DEN area even after the transition from a more traditional carrier to ULCC. They lost some to WN and UA during the transition, but also gained a base of travelers who place price higher on their priority list than things like amenities or frequencies

A lot of the new markets on the east coast don’t have DEN as an option on any other carrier, so I look forward to these new/returning routes and hopefully they will be successful. The O+D is there , especially if you factor in the bleed to other nearby larger airports. And I didn’t realize until you said it but it does look like quite a few arrivals from DEN take a turn somewhere else on the east then head back to DEN in the late afternoon/early
evening. It will be interesting to see how that works though if the mid turn route doesn’t fare well or it ends sooner. I know for example MDT-RDU is seasonal as is MDT-DEN, so one would assume they will end seasonally at the same time, but who knows. It’s certainly exciting times for F9.


I agree that plenty of O+D exists for these markets in addition to some connecting passengers. Someone mentioned that the early departures to the smaller eastern destinations may be problematic, but if there are DEN-based travelers looking for a nonstop flight to somewhere like CHS or SAV, or people from these cities are visiting DEN and are looking for a nonstop flight home, I think they will still take these flights, especially the price-sensitive leisure travelers. I am quite fond of F9 and have flown them since I was very young child (I grew up in DEN, now live in LAS, and take multiple trips every year to MCO, so I regularly travel through their three largest bases) so I sincerely hope they succeed on any route they launch. I am excited and interested to see what happens in the coming months and years.
Spirit of the West...A Whole Different Animal...Low Fares Done Right

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos