tofur
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Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 11:03 am

Looks like fifty 737 MAX will be delivered by 2020, with the last 11 delayed for a few years. A bit of speculation, but certainly appears likely that it will be the 7M9 version that is pushed back. The order for the 7M9 was for 11 aircraft.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ft-448199/
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 11:24 am

11x 7M9's are deferred, while delivery of 5x 7M8 has been brought forward from 2021 to 2020. Effectively, some of the slots for the -9 are now filled with 8's.

Very likely the -9's won't be taken up at all, either substituded for the MAX-10 or additional 787s.
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CRJ900
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 11:32 am

I feel a bit sorry for the MAX 9 - it's probably a good aircraft in its own right, but the wrong size for many airlines. I too think the MAX 10 will be better if they need more capacity as the 10 can have 189 seats in F/Y+/Y config without extra exits.
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ACCS300
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 1:01 pm

Here's hoping for the A321neo given the MAX9 uncertainly. AC seems to be gradually warming up to the A321 once again, given the recent addition of the AF birds and the Rouge new-builds.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 1:24 pm

The pace for deliveries at Air Canada was quite fast. 36 737-8s by the end of 2019 is quite a few new airplanes, since I didn’t think they were retiring planes 1 for 1. I am a little confused how the whole fleet ties together including rouge.

Swapping 737-9s for 10s may also make sense.
 
wave46
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 1:59 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
The pace for deliveries at Air Canada was quite fast. 36 737-8s by the end of 2019 is quite a few new airplanes, since I didn’t think they were retiring planes 1 for 1. I am a little confused how the whole fleet ties together including rouge.

Swapping 737-9s for 10s may also make sense.


The 737 MAX 8 will largely be replacing the 1990-93 delivered A320s that are coming up on 30 years of use. The MAX 8 will also be replacing some 767s on niche routes - Air Canada has moved to narrowbody service on YHZ-LHR. Also, the MAX 8 might be covering for the withdrawal of the E190/A319 prior to the introduction of the CS300. I suspect the withdrawn A319s will head over to Rouge.

The A321s will be around for a bit on mainline - they're reasonably new.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 2:32 pm

Almost certainly swapping them for the 10. They have shifted all of the max 9 orders to the very end of the delivery list, and timing them to coincide with the max 10 entry to the market.
 
EChid
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 2:49 pm

wave46 wrote:
The A321s will be around for a bit on mainline - they're reasonably new.


Speaking of, do we know if the A321s are going to be refitted with the new cabin type? Once the A330s are refitted and the 767s and A320/19s leave the fleet in a couple of years, they'll be the only things with the old cabin and (painful) entertainment systems.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 2:52 pm

Will most likely eventually become MAX 10s, AC is getting MAX 8s at a crazy rate!
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 2:56 pm

EChid wrote:
wave46 wrote:
The A321s will be around for a bit on mainline - they're reasonably new.


Speaking of, do we know if the A321s are going to be refitted with the new cabin type? Once the A330s are refitted and the 767s and A320/19s leave the fleet in a couple of years, they'll be the only things with the old cabin and (painful) entertainment systems.


The A321s just received a small update, same seats though as far as I know, just a reconfiguration. I expect they will retire with that cabin.
 
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keesje
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 3:08 pm

Getting rid of the A321s, replacing it by new MAX -10 aircraft would mean surrendering mid range cargo capability
Which might be a very good idea, or might not be a very good idea. It would create new bulk loading jobs though :thumbsup:

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Polot
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 3:17 pm

keesje wrote:
Getting rid of the A321s, replacing it by new MAX -10 aircraft would mean surrendering mid range cargo capability
Which might be a very good idea, or might not be a very good idea. It would create new bulk loading jobs though :thumbsup:

Image

It’s not an AC MAX thread if keesje doesn’t come along and talk about cargo containers. When is someone going to clue him in that AC’s selection of the C series and Max is clear evidence that the A320/A321s container ability is not as important to them as he seems to think it is?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 3:24 pm

Polot wrote:
keesje wrote:
Getting rid of the A321s, replacing it by new MAX -10 aircraft would mean surrendering mid range cargo capability
Which might be a very good idea, or might not be a very good idea. It would create new bulk loading jobs though :thumbsup:

Image

It’s not an AC MAX thread if keesje doesn’t come along and talk about cargo containers. When is someone going to clue him in that AC’s selection of the C series and Max is clear evidence that the A320/A321s container ability is not as important to them as he seems to think it is?


Polot, I was about to post the same thing. EVERY thread on an AC 737MAX has the cargo debate brought up by keesje.
 
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Polot
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 3:26 pm

jbs2886 wrote:

Polot, I was about to post the same thing. EVERY thread on an AC 737MAX has the cargo debate brought up by keesje.

I’m personally amused by the fact that he selected a photo showing AC bulk loading the rear bin at the time.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 3:31 pm

My wishful thinking is that they either dump these all together or they convert them into something that isn’t a 737 and get some new A321s
Polot wrote:
I’m personally amused by the fact that he selected a photo showing AC bulk loading the rear bin at the time.

Well to be fair any plane that takes containers comes with an extra hold for bulk stuff which is what’s being used in the picture.
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briguychau
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 4:03 pm

With the recent fleet plans, AC seems to have thrown the "all-Boeing fleet" idea out the window. In the medium-term, AC's narrowbody fleet will consist of the CS300, 737 MAX 8, and A321, which have basically 0 commonality between them. I don't think the 11 MAX 9s will be taken up; the deferral is just buying themselves time to adjust their plans.

Personal speculation as to what might happen:

1. 737 MAX 9 will be cancelled
2. Mainline 787-8 will move to Rouge, replacing older-frame 767 (at least 6 frames will be 27 years old by 2020)
3. Mainline A321 will be replaced with A321neo/LR (which can also take over some TATL routes)
4. Mainline A330-300 will be replaced with A330-900neo
5. A top-up 787-9 order will replace 787-8 moving to Rouge
(Alternate 5: New build 787-8 will be ordered for Rouge. In addition, more A330-900neo will be ordered to replace the lost 787-8 capacity)
 
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Polot
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 4:11 pm

briguychau wrote:
With the recent fleet plans, AC seems to have thrown the "all-Boeing fleet" idea out the window. In the medium-term, AC's narrowbody fleet will consist of the CS300, 737 MAX 8, and A321, which have basically 0 commonality between them. I don't think the 11 MAX 9s will be taken up; the deferral is just buying themselves time to adjust their plans.

Personal speculation as to what might happen:

1. 737 MAX 9 will be cancelled
2. Mainline 787-8 will move to Rouge, replacing older-frame 767 (at least 6 frames will be 27 years old by 2020)
3. Mainline A321 will be replaced with A321neo/LR (which can also take over some TATL routes)
4. Mainline A330-300 will be replaced with A330-900neo
5. A top-up 787-9 order will replace 787-8 moving to Rouge
(Alternate 5: New build 787-8 will be ordered for Rouge. In addition, more A330-900neo will be ordered to replace the lost 787-8 capacity)

Your speculation is missing the MoM. I suspect AC would be very interested in Boeing’s 797 or Airbus’s response.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 4:17 pm

briguychau wrote:
With the recent fleet plans, AC seems to have thrown the "all-Boeing fleet" idea out the window. In the medium-term, AC's narrowbody fleet will consist of the CS300, 737 MAX 8, and A321, which have basically 0 commonality between them. I don't think the 11 MAX 9s will be taken up; the deferral is just buying themselves time to adjust their plans.

Personal speculation as to what might happen:

1. 737 MAX 9 will be cancelled
2. Mainline 787-8 will move to Rouge, replacing older-frame 767 (at least 6 frames will be 27 years old by 2020)
3. Mainline A321 will be replaced with A321neo/LR (which can also take over some TATL routes)
4. Mainline A330-300 will be replaced with A330-900neo
5. A top-up 787-9 order will replace 787-8 moving to Rouge
(Alternate 5: New build 787-8 will be ordered for Rouge. In addition, more A330-900neo will be ordered to replace the lost 787-8 capacity)


A330neo is not happening, I'm willing to put a truck load of money on that. Why introduce another new engine type they would have to service? They could always go the AA route and order 787s. Plus the Boeing MOM is on the horizon and I bet AC would be prime operator of the type. I firmly believe the A321s will either be replaced by the MAX 10 or the MOM. Their A321s are young and they could also always end up at Rouge when replacement time comes at mainline for them.
 
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 4:22 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
briguychau wrote:
With the recent fleet plans, AC seems to have thrown the "all-Boeing fleet" idea out the window. In the medium-term, AC's narrowbody fleet will consist of the CS300, 737 MAX 8, and A321, which have basically 0 commonality between them. I don't think the 11 MAX 9s will be taken up; the deferral is just buying themselves time to adjust their plans.

Personal speculation as to what might happen:

1. 737 MAX 9 will be cancelled
2. Mainline 787-8 will move to Rouge, replacing older-frame 767 (at least 6 frames will be 27 years old by 2020)
3. Mainline A321 will be replaced with A321neo/LR (which can also take over some TATL routes)
4. Mainline A330-300 will be replaced with A330-900neo
5. A top-up 787-9 order will replace 787-8 moving to Rouge
(Alternate 5: New build 787-8 will be ordered for Rouge. In addition, more A330-900neo will be ordered to replace the lost 787-8 capacity)


A330neo is not happening, I'm willing to put a truck load of money on that. Why introduce another new engine type they would have to service? They could always go the AA route and order 787s. Plus the Boeing MOM is on the horizon and I bet AC would be prime operator of the type. I firmly believe the A321s will either be replaced by the MAX 10 or the MOM. Their A321s are young and they could also always end up at Rouge when replacement time comes at mainline for them.


The Max 10 will be available long before the MoM is. Why would AC want to make their fleet more complicated by ordering the A330-900? They already have 787-8 and 787-9 aircraft that can cover that capacity and range. AC basically swapped earlier deliveries of 737-9Max for earlier deliveries of 737-8Max. By the time the new delivery times for 737-9Max aircraft arrive, the Max 10 will be available. It sounds like AC wants to have a simpler fleet of Max 8 and Max 10 without the complexities of having Max 9 mixed in.
Last edited by flyingclrs727 on Tue May 01, 2018 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 4:24 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
briguychau wrote:
With the recent fleet plans, AC seems to have thrown the "all-Boeing fleet" idea out the window. In the medium-term, AC's narrowbody fleet will consist of the CS300, 737 MAX 8, and A321, which have basically 0 commonality between them. I don't think the 11 MAX 9s will be taken up; the deferral is just buying themselves time to adjust their plans.

Personal speculation as to what might happen:

1. 737 MAX 9 will be cancelled
2. Mainline 787-8 will move to Rouge, replacing older-frame 767 (at least 6 frames will be 27 years old by 2020)
3. Mainline A321 will be replaced with A321neo/LR (which can also take over some TATL routes)
4. Mainline A330-300 will be replaced with A330-900neo
5. A top-up 787-9 order will replace 787-8 moving to Rouge
(Alternate 5: New build 787-8 will be ordered for Rouge. In addition, more A330-900neo will be ordered to replace the lost 787-8 capacity)


A330neo is not happening, I'm willing to put a truck load of money on that. Why introduce another new engine type they would have to service? They could always go the AA route and order 787s. Plus the Boeing MOM is on the horizon and I bet AC would be prime operator of the type. I firmly believe the A321s will either be replaced by the MAX 10 or the MOM. Their A321s are young and they could also always end up at Rouge when replacement time comes at mainline for them.


The Max 10 will be available long before the MoM is.


Right... But AC is in no rush to replace their young A321s. Honestly it seems AC wants to really bolster its fleet around the 170 seat segment (MAX 8). We have to remember that the MAX 8 has a huge increase in seats from their current A320 fleet and I don't think AC wants too many aircraft larger than that. The A330s aren't old either, they are also getting refitted with brand new interiors and will be around for quite awhile.
 
briguychau
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 4:37 pm

Polot wrote:
Your speculation is missing the MoM. I suspect AC would be very interested in Boeing’s 797 or Airbus’s response.


ikolkyo wrote:
A330neo is not happening, I'm willing to put a truck load of money on that. Why introduce another new engine type they would have to service? They could always go the AA route and order 787s. Plus the Boeing MOM is on the horizon and I bet AC would be prime operator of the type. I firmly believe the A321s will either be replaced by the MAX 10 or the MOM. Their A321s are young and they could also always end up at Rouge when replacement time comes at mainline for them.


You're both right, I forgot about the MoM. Makes sense given the 2023-2024 timeline for the MAX 9 deferral.
 
beechnut
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 4:47 pm

I don't see new-build A330 Neo either. I'd be much more willing to put money on more 787s to replace the existing A330s eventually. The 787-10 would be a great transatlantic replacement. AC is hanging on to the existing A330s because they work and are cheap capacity that can be parked or gotten rid of in a downturn. The long-range forecast IMHO is more Boeings for that job, or nothing at all if the market takes a nosedive.

wave46 wrote:
I suspect the withdrawn A319s will head over to Rouge.


AC have already said that the A319s will be kept longer than planned in order to accelerate the remaining E190 retirements. The A319s will be replaced by the C-series, which won't start to be delivered in significant numbers until 2020 (first deliveries at the end of 2019 but only two airframes). So expect to see the A319s at mainline for at least another three years, maybe 4, with first withdrawals in Q1 2020.

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wave46
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 5:59 pm

briguychau wrote:
With the recent fleet plans, AC seems to have thrown the "all-Boeing fleet" idea out the window. In the medium-term, AC's narrowbody fleet will consist of the CS300, 737 MAX 8, and A321, which have basically 0 commonality between them. I don't think the 11 MAX 9s will be taken up; the deferral is just buying themselves time to adjust their plans.

Personal speculation as to what might happen:

1. 737 MAX 9 will be cancelled
2. Mainline 787-8 will move to Rouge, replacing older-frame 767 (at least 6 frames will be 27 years old by 2020)
3. Mainline A321 will be replaced with A321neo/LR (which can also take over some TATL routes)
4. Mainline A330-300 will be replaced with A330-900neo
5. A top-up 787-9 order will replace 787-8 moving to Rouge
(Alternate 5: New build 787-8 will be ordered for Rouge. In addition, more A330-900neo will be ordered to replace the lost 787-8 capacity)


1. Agree with you - with the caveat that AC will likely order the MAX 10 eventually.
2. Disagree. The value of using expensive 787s on low-yielding leisure routes is questionable. Better to use them on high-value/high yield routes on mainline. Maybe in 15 years this will change after they are paid off. I would see the A330 fleet shifting to Rouge as the eventual 767 replacement.
3. This could go either way for Boeing and Airbus - but aside from a couple of (edit: potential) routes (ex. YOW-LHR during the winter or YOW-FRA year round), the MAX 8 can cover most of Air Canada's narrowbody transatlantic operations.
4. I'd disagree. The current reason AC is ordering used A330s is to avoid expensive new aircraft right now, along with familiarity with the model. In a few years when their fleet cycle replacement costs are lower, they probably will go for the 787, given Boeing's track record with offering very competitive pricing on the 787 (see: American Airlines and Hawaiian orders)
5. Maybe. The 787-8 has a niche on mainline, so I don't think they'll move it. Additional 787-9s would be ordered to replace A330s (see #4) or for additional growth.
Last edited by wave46 on Tue May 01, 2018 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bigjku
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 6:04 pm

briguychau wrote:
With the recent fleet plans, AC seems to have thrown the "all-Boeing fleet" idea out the window. In the medium-term, AC's narrowbody fleet will consist of the CS300, 737 MAX 8, and A321, which have basically 0 commonality between them. I don't think the 11 MAX 9s will be taken up; the deferral is just buying themselves time to adjust their plans.

Personal speculation as to what might happen:

1. 737 MAX 9 will be cancelled
2. Mainline 787-8 will move to Rouge, replacing older-frame 767 (at least 6 frames will be 27 years old by 2020)
3. Mainline A321 will be replaced with A321neo/LR (which can also take over some TATL routes)
4. Mainline A330-300 will be replaced with A330-900neo
5. A top-up 787-9 order will replace 787-8 moving to Rouge
(Alternate 5: New build 787-8 will be ordered for Rouge. In addition, more A330-900neo will be ordered to replace the lost 787-8 capacity)


They aren’t ordering A339neo when they already have 787’s flying. They aren’t insane.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Tue May 01, 2018 7:23 pm

briguychau wrote:
With the recent fleet plans, AC seems to have thrown the "all-Boeing fleet" idea out the window. In the medium-term, AC's narrowbody fleet will consist of the CS300, 737 MAX 8, and A321, which have basically 0 commonality between them. I don't think the 11 MAX 9s will be taken up; the deferral is just buying themselves time to adjust their plans.

Personal speculation as to what might happen:

1. 737 MAX 9 will be cancelled
2. Mainline 787-8 will move to Rouge, replacing older-frame 767 (at least 6 frames will be 27 years old by 2020)
3. Mainline A321 will be replaced with A321neo/LR (which can also take over some TATL routes)
4. Mainline A330-300 will be replaced with A330-900neo
5. A top-up 787-9 order will replace 787-8 moving to Rouge
(Alternate 5: New build 787-8 will be ordered for Rouge. In addition, more A330-900neo will be ordered to replace the lost 787-8 capacity)



1. possibly, more likely converted to -10s or more -8s
2. No... The 788 has a specific mission in the mainline fleet. Rouge can get more lower time 763s if needed used.
3. Maybe, but 737-10 is also possible... TATL will be a 737-8 stronghold so unless there is a need for more seats then I don't see much of a need for the 321LR
4. Nice pipe-dream but I doubt it... more 787-9s or even 787-10s would be more likely if they choose to replace the 333s
5. More 787s are coming, but I really don't see it at Rouge soon. There is some benefit in keeping Rouge on the 767s for now, even if they have to buy in more as older frame time out. Once a decision is needed the new MOM and whatever Airbus does will be coming out.
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rbavfan
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Wed May 02, 2018 12:35 am

CRJ900 wrote:
I feel a bit sorry for the MAX 9 - it's probably a good aircraft in its own right, but the wrong size for many airlines. I too think the MAX 10 will be better if they need more capacity as the 10 can have 189 seats in F/Y+/Y config without extra exits.


In Air Canada's seat pitches the 737-10 would seat 194 seats or 191 if they add an extra bathroom. If they loose at least 1 seat each side at the extra door, if they waste 4 seats at the extra door that would be 189 with another lavatory.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Wed May 02, 2018 12:38 am

I wouldn’t be surprised to see those 11 deferred 7M9s be converted into additional 7M8s paving the way for the 321LR which would keep the 321s in AC’s fleet for decades to come.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Wed May 02, 2018 12:50 am

767333ER wrote:
My wishful thinking is that they either dump these all together or they convert them into something that isn’t a 737 and get some new A321s
Polot wrote:
I’m personally amused by the fact that he selected a photo showing AC bulk loading the rear bin at the time.

Well to be fair any plane that takes containers comes with an extra hold for bulk stuff which is what’s being used in the picture.


Sorry but thats the rear hold that also has container capabilities. The Bulk hold door farther back uses bulk though.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Wed May 02, 2018 1:04 am

keesje wrote:
Getting rid of the A321s, replacing it by new MAX -10 aircraft would mean surrendering mid range cargo capability
Which might be a very good idea, or might not be a very good idea. It would create new bulk loading jobs though :thumbsup:

Image


I wonder if there is a way to track how many times you have posted that photo. You always seem to ignore that the 737-10 without containers is expected to have more cargo volume than an A321 with containers, especially when the A321 needs an aux tank to match 737 range which uses up volume.
 
VonRichtofen
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Wed May 02, 2018 8:43 pm

I've been a ramp worker for AC for years. Here's my take on the whole container vs bulk argument.

For ramp loading turn times, containers are far superior, however that doesn't mean the 737 is useless compared to the Airbus for loading cargo. It can carry the weight, it's just that loading them is much more labour intensive.

I think the only "rude awakening" if you can call it that AC has with ground handling the 737 MAX is the unloading/loading time with current staff levels on ramp crews. A three man ramp crew (standard) can easily turn a containerized 320 or 321 in under 40 mins. The 737 MAX would probably require at least 5.

So it's hard to really tell if it makes a big difference or not in the grand scheme things. I'd like to see the accounting differences between the two.
The MAX requires more ramp staff on a turn, but less complicated and less expensive equipment. So it probably evens out. I've talked to a few pilots who say the fuel burn on the MAX is unbelievably good. And it seems the dispatch reliability is excellent.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Wed May 02, 2018 8:50 pm

"Cracks in the Wall"

This from the man who consistently claimed right up until United posted a picture of their first frame in the paint bay that they would almost assuredly cancel their 737-9 order and order A321-200neos.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Wed May 02, 2018 9:48 pm

rbavfan wrote:
767333ER wrote:
My wishful thinking is that they either dump these all together or they convert them into something that isn’t a 737 and get some new A321s
Polot wrote:
I’m personally amused by the fact that he selected a photo showing AC bulk loading the rear bin at the time.

Well to be fair any plane that takes containers comes with an extra hold for bulk stuff which is what’s being used in the picture.


Sorry but thats the rear hold that also has container capabilities. The Bulk hold door farther back uses bulk though.


Are you referring to the picture? The belt loader is at the bulk hold not the aft cargo door, there would be no reason to have the belt loader at the container door. There are a few A320s, which is pictured, that are bulk loaded at AC.
 
Aerlingus330neo
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Wed May 02, 2018 10:57 pm

On the 787 note, they are getting rid of all 767 from mainline by the end of 2019, 4 more A330 aircraft will be arriving to replace them and no 787 will be order for the time being. All A330 aircraft are to refurbished aswell.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... four-a330s
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 1:18 am

Whiteguy wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
767333ER wrote:
My wishful thinking is that they either dump these all together or they convert them into something that isn’t a 737 and get some new A321s

Well to be fair any plane that takes containers comes with an extra hold for bulk stuff which is what’s being used in the picture.


Sorry but thats the rear hold that also has container capabilities. The Bulk hold door farther back uses bulk though.


Are you referring to the picture? The belt loader is at the bulk hold not the aft cargo door, there would be no reason to have the belt loader at the container door. There are a few A320s, which is pictured, that are bulk loaded at AC.


All 320s at AC are containerized, including the legacy CP 320s.

All 319s at AC though are bulk loaded.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 3:10 am

Dominion301 wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
rbavfan wrote:

Sorry but thats the rear hold that also has container capabilities. The Bulk hold door farther back uses bulk though.


Are you referring to the picture? The belt loader is at the bulk hold not the aft cargo door, there would be no reason to have the belt loader at the container door. There are a few A320s, which is pictured, that are bulk loaded at AC.


All 320s at AC are containerized, including the legacy CP 320s.

All 319s at AC though are bulk loaded.


Tail 241 and 242 were added to the fleet in 2015, at least one or both were non containerized configuration. Unless that has since changed.
 
beechnut
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 11:27 am

I think the reason for the deferral is that the near-term availability of interesting new designs, such as the A321LR, MAX10, “797”, etc. means that the MAX9 is goijng to be quickly superseded by designs with superior mission flexibility in terms of range, capacity, etc.

I’m betting AC is waiting to see how all this fleshes out before committing. Plus in case nobody noticed, they are loosing money in spite of record revenues. So a deferral also makes financial sense.

You can be sure though that AC has already started a chat with Boeing about converting the deferrals to MAX10, 797 or more 787s (9s or 10s). And has no doubt also had a chat with Airbus about their 321LR. This is really a wait-and-see scenario. There are so many options far tastier than the MAX9 just over the horizon.

Prudent gesture really, to ensure not being stuck with yesterday’s aircraft.

Beech
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 12:04 pm

beechnut wrote:
I think the reason for the deferral is that the near-term availability of interesting new designs, such as the A321LR, MAX10, “797”, etc. means that the MAX9 is goijng to be quickly superseded by designs with superior mission flexibility in terms of range, capacity, etc.

I’m betting AC is waiting to see how all this fleshes out before committing. Plus in case nobody noticed, they are loosing money in spite of record revenues. So a deferral also makes financial sense.

You can be sure though that AC has already started a chat with Boeing about converting the deferrals to MAX10, 797 or more 787s (9s or 10s). And has no doubt also had a chat with Airbus about their 321LR. This is really a wait-and-see scenario. There are so many options far tastier than the MAX9 just over the horizon.

Prudent gesture really, to ensure not being stuck with yesterday’s aircraft.

Beech


I don’t think it’s accurate to suggest the deferral had anything to do with their finances. They are in fact not losing money, last year they made record profits, and will likely shatter that again. They traditionally lose in the first quarter, and make it up later in the year. Not trying to be argumentative, just in the interest of facts, trying to set the record straight.

Their fleet plan has changed considerably since the initial max order, and they have grown considerably. It’s wise to delay the descision as late as possible and end up with the aircraft best tailored to their needs in the future, not now. Also recall, their principle hub, Toronto, is currently operating well above its’s designed maximum capacity and needs significant expansion to accommodate growth. When that will come is anyone’s guess. Vancouver isn’t exactly blessed with an abundance of space either, but it’s scale is on a smaller order of magnitude, and the same can be said of Montreal. They have to take a step back and think of how this congestion is going to influence their business 5 years from now and beyond. I think it’s smart that they delay this order, and believe it’s likely that they consider larger capacity replacements simply because there are only so many frequencies that can be added out of airports that already do not have nearly enough space. These deliveries are still very near term, they need to be careful with that, which I believe they are.
 
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AC_B777
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 12:41 pm

I've worked the ramp with AC for almost 20 years, and I have differing opinions on containerized vs non containerized a/c. The containerized A320/321 are great planes, and, as VonRichtofen stated above, the turn times are less because of it. However, those A32X containerized a/c are only great when the roller system works on the floor. When the system doesn't work, and the rollers don't grab the cans, then it can be a nightmare! A guy trying to pull a 400-500 pound can loaded with cargo/baggage is super labor intensive and quite frankly, a pain in the ass!
On the other hand, I have seen and loaded A319's with almost 300 pieces of baggage on board and still had room leftover. A bulk loaded a/c can take an incredible amount of luggage and cargo. A few years ago when the oil boom was still happening here in Newfoundland, it was a common sight to see large, oversized and heavy cargo being shipped from YYT-LHR on the A319. We routinely, loaded 20-25 foot drill bits into the bulkhold of those a/c, and without any issues of worrying if they would fit. Not to mention huge amounts of seal pelts and seafood.
The main problem I see with the 737MAX vs the A32X is the cargo door size! The A32X cargo doors are approximately 23" wider and 15" higher than the 737. Also, the Airbus doors swing "out and up" vs "in and up" on the 737, thus utilizing more floor space in the doorway on the Airbus for loading as the 737 needs clearance for the cargo door to close. And, if memory serves me correctly, I think there is almost 3" in height lost in the doorway on the 737 due to the door opening inward.
So, we can talk "cargo volume" all we want on the 737MAX, but that doesn't mean the the a/c can actually handle what is being shipped, especially when it comes to the cargo aspect of what airlines carry. Baggage shouldn't be an issue with the MAX, but oversized, tall or long pieces might not work on these a/c, whereas the A32X stands a much better chance of carrying them.
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 12:56 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
All 320s at AC are containerized, including the legacy CP 320s.

All 319s at AC though are bulk loaded.


Tail 241 and 242 were added to the fleet in 2015, at least one or both were non containerized configuration. Unless that has since changed.


All original AC A320s, FINs 201-240 must be loaded with containers, (other than the bulk hold). They are not approved for bulk loading.

The original CP A320s FINs 401-416 and FINs 241 and 242 can do either ... containers or bulk loaded. If you see an A320 being bulk loaded, and it isn't a Jetz charter, then they are doing so to move containers around, bulk one way, containers the other.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 1:06 pm

And remember ... Air Canada has been buying aircraft for 80+ years. It is very unlikley that there is any aspect of the 737 that is a "surprise".

In the PowerPoint presentation shown to employees explaining the choice of the MAX over the A320 neo (a very compelling presentation, btw), one of the advantages stated was the flexibility of cargo hold bulk loading, so they certainly knew what they were getting.

Word internally is that they are more than happy with the 737 so far. Astoundingly low fuel burns and about the easiest entry into service they have experienced in decades. If the original MAX order is being altered, it is likely due to market changes and fleet plan changes. Looking at the current troubles with the A320neo, maybe they dodged a bullet.

Looking back over 80 years, I don't see a lot of "mistakes" in aircraft choices at Air Canada / Trans-Canada Air Lines where choice was made for aircraft merit and not governmental intervention, like the DC-4M. So we can be pretty sure the 737 is not a "mistake".
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 1:14 pm

longhauler wrote:
And remember ... Air Canada has been buying aircraft for 80+ years. It is very unlikley that there is any aspect of the 737 that is a "surprise".

In the PowerPoint presentation shown to employees explaining the choice of the MAX over the A320 neo (a very compelling presentation, btw), one of the advantages stated was the flexibility of cargo hold bulk loading, so they certainly knew what they were getting.

Word internally is that they are more than happy with the 737 so far. Astoundingly low fuel burns and about the easiest entry into service they have experienced in decades. If the original MAX order is being altered, it is likely due to market changes and fleet plan changes. Looking at the current troubles with the A320neo, maybe they dodged a bullet.

Looking back over 80 years, I don't see a lot of "mistakes" in aircraft choices at Air Canada / Trans-Canada Air Lines where choice was made for aircraft merit and not governmental intervention, like the DC-4M. So we can be pretty sure the 737 is not a "mistake".


Perhaps some thought the 737MAX would turn out to be a mistake like the A340-500 was and thought Aur Canada would dump the order in favor of A321s. Air Canada was probably the most noticeable A320 family customer who flipped to the 737MAX, which may be painful for some
 
jmt18325
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 1:15 pm

beechnut wrote:
I’m betting AC is waiting to see how all this fleshes out before committing. Plus in case nobody noticed, they are loosing money in spite of record revenues.



That's not really accurate. The company made money for several years in a row. They lost money in Q1 which seems to be normal for them other than 2016.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 1:35 pm

longhauler wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
All 320s at AC are containerized, including the legacy CP 320s.

All 319s at AC though are bulk loaded.


Tail 241 and 242 were added to the fleet in 2015, at least one or both were non containerized configuration. Unless that has since changed.


All original AC A320s, FINs 201-240 must be loaded with containers, (other than the bulk hold). They are not approved for bulk loading.

The original CP A320s FINs 401-416 and FINs 241 and 242 can do either ... containers or bulk loaded. If you see an A320 being bulk loaded, and it isn't a Jetz charter, then they are doing so to move containers around, bulk one way, containers the other.


Cool. I've only ever seen ex-CP 400 series FINs get container loaded during scheduled ops. Thanks for the clarification.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 5:07 pm

longhauler wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
All 320s at AC are containerized, including the legacy CP 320s.

All 319s at AC though are bulk loaded.


Tail 241 and 242 were added to the fleet in 2015, at least one or both were non containerized configuration. Unless that has since changed.


All original AC A320s, FINs 201-240 must be loaded with containers, (other than the bulk hold). They are not approved for bulk loading.

The original CP A320s FINs 401-416 and FINs 241 and 242 can do either ... containers or bulk loaded. If you see an A320 being bulk loaded, and it isn't a Jetz charter, then they are doing so to move containers around, bulk one way, containers the other.


During my time at AC I bulk loaded 320s a couple times, don't remember the fins though. 241 & 242 are bulk loaded, they are not containerized at all.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 10:44 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Perhaps some thought the 737MAX would turn out to be a mistake like the A340-500 was and thought Air Canada would dump the order in favor of A321s.

I am not so sure I would call the A340-500 a mistake.

It made sense when it was ordered as a part of a large fleet that included the A340-300, A340-600 and A330-300 as well as the A340-500. At the time it was ordered, it was the only aircraft that could fly from YYZ-HKG nonstop. And for a while, AC edged CX on the route who had to stop in ANC, by using the A340-500.

Whiteguy wrote:
During my time at AC I bulk loaded 320s a couple times, don't remember the fins though. 241 & 242 are bulk loaded, they are not containerized at all.

I recently flew 241, YYZ-YEG-YYZ as 169/174 where containers were used.

The only time I have ever flown a bulk loaded A320 (other than Jetz) was an end of the season flight to the Caribbean where they did not want to leave the containers there. We were bulk loaded south and picked up the containers there already loaded to go north.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Thu May 03, 2018 11:12 pm

longhauler wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Perhaps some thought the 737MAX would turn out to be a mistake like the A340-500 was and thought Air Canada would dump the order in favor of A321s.

I am not so sure I would call the A340-500 a mistake.

It made sense when it was ordered as a part of a large fleet that included the A340-300, A340-600 and A330-300 as well as the A340-500. At the time it was ordered, it was the only aircraft that could fly from YYZ-HKG nonstop. And for a while, AC edged CX on the route who had to stop in ANC, by using the A340-500.

Whiteguy wrote:
During my time at AC I bulk loaded 320s a couple times, don't remember the fins though. 241 & 242 are bulk loaded, they are not containerized at all.

I recently flew 241, YYZ-YEG-YYZ as 169/174 where containers were used.

The only time I have ever flown a bulk loaded A320 (other than Jetz) was an end of the season flight to the Caribbean where they did not want to leave the containers there. We were bulk loaded south and picked up the containers there already loaded to go north.


The 340-500s were a mistake.

However they had no choice. One of the requirements that airbus had made with the re-lease deals was that AC would take delivery of the 2 345s that we’re sitting painted in France. They were built and Airbus was trying anything to move them. They were paying a pile monthly for that thing and they were given no financing deal on them. Considering they got amazing refinancing on pretty much everything they had the 345 was extremely expensive. At that time we had power by the hour on a bunch of wide bodies.

They wanted nothing to do with those two aircraft. They were bigger white elephants than the 3 747s. Which were brutal themselves with their Combi/Pw4000 engine config. At least they were paying little for them.

The 737 will not become the 340-500. It doesn’t burn any gas. That weighs quite a bit more in the execs minds than the happiness of ramp crews backs. Just sayin.
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Fri May 04, 2018 2:56 am

sixtyseven wrote:
The 340-500s were a mistake.

By mistake, I mean an error in purchasing one aircraft over another, when with future developments it became clear they bought "the wrong one".

Referring to this message thread ... AC's decision to purchase the 737MAX over the A320neo.

For example, Trans-Canada Air Lines' (forced) decision to purchase the Canadair DC-4M North Star over the much better DC-6 or L749/L1049. As I said, that was the last time anything other than merit was used in the decision. AC resisted the CL-44 and bought the much better DC-8-54JT, much like the L1011 over the DC-10 and the DC-9 over the Trident, Caravelle or BAC 111.

The A340-500 was certainly a white elephant and when the time came, AC definitely did not want it any more. But at the time, no other aircraft could fulfill the purpose for which it was intended, YYZ-HKG. When the decision to buy it was made, neither the 777 nor the MD-11 could fly the route. So I agree, a "mistake" was made, but it would appear the mistake was in thinking that they really needed any aircraft for that route, when an enroute stop might have been a better idea.

The 747-433M was a different story. Another white elephant. But this time, it was Transport Canada's decision to not allow main deck cargo combined with passengers as a result of the loss of the South African Airways 747 combi over the Indian Ocean. Boeing devised an amazing aircraft. Without going into detail, it was basically a combi that wasn't a combi. Boeing's engineering satisfied Transport Canada ... then Transport Canada changed their minds ... and Air Canada was left with a version of the 747 that no one wanted. Air Canada flew it profitably for many years, but when it came time to sell it ....
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Air Canada Delays Delivery Of 11 737 MAX

Fri May 04, 2018 3:02 pm

I had a constructive comment on this thread that apparently was deleted by moderators. I suggested the thread could just as easily been titled 'Air Canada accelerates delivery of 5 737-MAX8' and that some posters preferred highlighting negative aspects of news stories and then speculating in an exaggerated fashion that the sky was falling or was it walls crumbling?.

Who did I offend with this bit of truth?
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