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fightforlove
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Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Tue May 01, 2018 3:55 pm

AF-KLM are taking delivery of a slew of brand new widebodies over the next few years. What routes are Air France planning to deploy their A350s on? Are they planned to be 772 replacements while the 787s are clearly becoming the A340 replacement? I assume the 772s would be next for retirement after the A343s, with the A332s sticking around for many years to come.

And for KLM, they have ordered both the A359 and 78J - what missions will they handle in addition to the remaining 789 deliveries?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Tue May 01, 2018 4:08 pm

Up to 10 A350s will be headed to Joon. First frames in 2019.
mercure f-wtcc
 
FlySSC
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Tue May 01, 2018 5:29 pm

fightforlove wrote:
AF-KLM are taking delivery of a slew of brand new widebodies over the next few years. What routes are Air France planning to deploy their A350s on? Are they planned to be 772 replacements while the 787s are clearly becoming the A340 replacement? I assume the 772s would be next for retirement after the A343s, with the A332s sticking around for many years to come.

And for KLM, they have ordered both the A359 and 78J - what missions will they handle in addition to the remaining 789 deliveries?


The B787 don’t « clearly become » the A340 replacement. They’ve always intended to be THE A340 replacement (exactely the same capacity, well sort of : 1 seat more in Y in the 787).
Air France operates now 6 B787-9. More to come from Oct 2018. Only 4 A340 remain in the fleet ( not counting JOON’s fleet). All A340 will be retired by the end of 2018.

The A332 are planned to remain active until minimum 2022/23 . The oldest in service, F-GZCA is from Dec 2001.

The B772er’s will need a replacement soon : the oldest one F-GSPA just turned 20 y.o (delivered in March 1998).
The A350 were planned to be a B772 replacement ... but it seems AF is not in a hurry to get them. KLM should get them first and JOON too... if they are still around by that time.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Tue May 01, 2018 5:35 pm

A332 are planned to be refurbished soon so they aren't going anywhere for now.
 
fightforlove
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Wed May 02, 2018 2:46 pm

If 10 of those 21 A359s are headed to Joon, that leaves only 11 for AF, while they currently have 25 772ers. Will there be an order for more A350s in the future?
 
Nola
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Wed May 02, 2018 2:48 pm

When will AF be finished refurbishing the 777 fleet? The new lie flat seats are amazing!
 
mig17
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Wed May 02, 2018 4:32 pm

fightforlove wrote:
If 10 of those 21 A359s are headed to Joon, that leaves only 11 for AF, while they currently have 25 772ers. Will there be an order for more A350s in the future?

My gess is those 21 A359 will be replacing the 4 A343 already transfered to Joon and 17 772 in AF's fleet but 6 of them will go directly to Joon in the process.
And yes, by 2024 AF & KLM sould be ordering between 50 and 90 more 789, 781, A359 & A351.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Wed May 02, 2018 4:53 pm

In general, I think this is a very interesting topic. AF seems to have found the destinations that can sustain the A380 ops, so perhaps that won't change for the time being (another interesting discussion that could be added to this thread is whether AF has decided how the A380 will be reconfigured and what the time frame for the refitting will be). Now, where the A350s (both "mainline" and Joon) will be flown to is indeed a good question. Any ideas?

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
A332 are planned to be refurbished soon so they aren't going anywhere for now.

That is good news. Is the plan to fit them with the Premium Economy and Business seats that AF is using on the 789s?

fightforlove wrote:
And for KLM, they have ordered both the A359 and 78J - what missions will they handle in addition to the remaining 789 deliveries?

With respect to KL, it seems we are now nearing the end of the 744 (all-pax and Combi) era. What planes will take over the Jumbo routes? Can we expect to see 789s replacing the Combis? The 787-10s should probably be used for North American flights such as DTW, ATL, JFK, etc. How many A359s will be received by KL and what is their plan for those new birds?
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 12:23 am

EddieDude wrote:

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
A332 are planned to be refurbished soon so they aren't going anywhere for now.

That is good news. Is the plan to fit them with the Premium Economy and Business seats that AF is using on the 789s?


Premium econ will indeed be the same as 789s. Business however will be the Equinox 2D seat, so a 2-2-2 configuration. Not ideal but miles ahead of the current seat.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 4:49 pm

Thank you FromCDGtoSYD. I checked the seat out on the Stelia site and I agree that it is an improvement (horizontal full-flat) even if it is not class-leading (it does not grant aisle access to window seat pax).
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
FlyingHollander
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 5:20 pm

Do we have any idea how many seats KL's A350-900's will have? Looking at other airlines I would guess about 330-340. That would be right about the same as the 787-10. How is that efficient?
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
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ronitkadam777
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 5:33 pm

At SJC, LH represents Star Alliance and BA represents One World.. The missing alliance seems to be Sky Team!
 
EddieDude
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 5:47 pm

FlyingHollander wrote:
Do we have any idea how many seats KL's A350-900's will have? Looking at other airlines I would guess about 330-340. That would be right about the same as the 787-10. How is that efficient?

Different missions. The 787-10 excels in routes such as AMS-East Coast US/Canada. The A359 has much longer legs, so it will be useful for longer routes where KL needs to transport more than 300 pax or significant cargo. I agree with you the A359s will probably be a bit dense, like LH and IB, or even a bit denser, especially because KL does not have a proper Premium Economy cabin.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
FlyingHollander
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 7:41 pm

EddieDude wrote:
Different missions. The 787-10 excels in routes such as AMS-East Coast US/Canada. The A359 has much longer legs, so it will be useful for longer routes where KL needs to transport more than 300 pax or significant cargo.

Is that extra range really necessary though? KL's only route above 6000nm is EZE, most are significantly shorter. And besides that, they also have the 77W (albeit with around 400 seats) for the longer routes
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
EChid
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 8:58 pm

What routes are the A380s on regularly now? Have they finally stopped jumping around with them?
 
Joost
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 9:15 pm

EddieDude wrote:
With respect to KL, it seems we are now nearing the end of the 744 (all-pax and Combi) era. What planes will take over the Jumbo routes? Can we expect to see 789s replacing the Combis? The 787-10s should probably be used for North American flights such as DTW, ATL, JFK, etc. How many A359s will be received by KL and what is their plan for those new birds?


KLM often reshuffles their network when new airframes replace older ones.
The main reason is to plan the most fuel efficient aircraft on the longest routes, where it makes most sense. After then 747s are gone, the 772s and 332s are the least fuel efficient aircraft in terms of CASM and will slowly move to shorter routes.

The existing 747 Combi routes will, just like what happened so far, be replaced by a mix of 772 (like ORD), 789 (like IAH) or even the A330 (on short hops with multiple flights like JFK and YYZ).
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 9:37 pm

Joost wrote:
EddieDude wrote:
With respect to KL, it seems we are now nearing the end of the 744 (all-pax and Combi) era. What planes will take over the Jumbo routes? Can we expect to see 789s replacing the Combis? The 787-10s should probably be used for North American flights such as DTW, ATL, JFK, etc. How many A359s will be received by KL and what is their plan for those new birds?


KLM often reshuffles their network when new airframes replace older ones.
The main reason is to plan the most fuel efficient aircraft on the longest routes, where it makes most sense. After then 747s are gone, the 772s and 332s are the least fuel efficient aircraft in terms of CASM and will slowly move to shorter routes.

The existing 747 Combi routes will, just like what happened so far, be replaced by a mix of 772 (like ORD), 789 (like IAH) or even the A330 (on short hops with multiple flights like JFK and YYZ).


I can’t comment on the others, but YYZ sees 747/747M/77W/789. No Airbus flights. KLM does a huge amount of cargo shipping to YYZ, they frequently carry cars on the 747 combis. When those go away, it’s going to be interesting to see what they do, AMS-YYZ traffic is expanding pretty rapidly at over 10% per year, given that and the cargo demand, it’s likely it ends up being something like a daily 77W and a daily A333 during the high season. Winter can probably scale back to a daily 77W. The cars will have to find a dedicated cargo carrier to fly.
 
Joost
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 9:52 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
I can’t comment on the others, but YYZ sees 747/747M/77W/789. No Airbus flights. KLM does a huge amount of cargo shipping to YYZ, they frequently carry cars on the 747 combis. When those go away, it’s going to be interesting to see what they do, AMS-YYZ traffic is expanding pretty rapidly at over 10% per year, given that and the cargo demand, it’s likely it ends up being something like a daily 77W and a daily A333 during the high season. Winter can probably scale back to a daily 77W. The cars will have to find a dedicated cargo carrier to fly.


YYZ, much like JFK, is a bit of a joker in the fleet planning of KLM: they receive the aircraft that are not needed for other routes.
The reasons are simple: every long-haul aircraft can fly the route, and rotations are short so the can be scheduled easily between other flights. Also, there's plenty of demand so you can also fill the larger aircraft.

I saw the A330 was in the S17 schedule but indeed is no longer used in S18. It shows the flexibility of the destinations.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Thu May 03, 2018 11:20 pm

FlyingHollander wrote:
Is that extra range really necessary though? KL's only route above 6000nm is EZE, most are significantly shorter. And besides that, they also have the 77W (albeit with around 400 seats) for the longer routes

I am not completely sure, but maybe the 787-10 would not be able to make it to EZE and/or back with a full pax and cargo load. MEX and BOG are destinations with specific long range requirements not because of the distance per se, but because of their altitude. Perhaps the 787-10's range is also insufficient for some far East destinations, but again don't quote me on this. I am sure the KL planners knew very well what they are doing when they decided to have both 787-10s and A359s. SQ is another airline that selected the 787-10 / A359 combo (former-regional; latter-long haul).

The 789s, A359s and 77Ws will take care of the KL longest routes. As mentioned, it is practically a given that the 787-10s will be used for East Coast US/Canada and other "medium" or "not-so-long"- haul destinations.

EChid wrote:
What routes are the A380s on regularly now? Have they finally stopped jumping around with them?

Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think ABJ, HKG, JNB, LAX, MEX, MIA, JFK, SFO, PVG and IAD.

Joost wrote:
KLM often reshuffles their network when new airframes replace older ones.
The main reason is to plan the most fuel efficient aircraft on the longest routes, where it makes most sense. After then 747s are gone, the 772s and 332s are the least fuel efficient aircraft in terms of CASM and will slowly move to shorter routes.

The existing 747 Combi routes will, just like what happened so far, be replaced by a mix of 772 (like ORD), 789 (like IAH) or even the A330 (on short hops with multiple flights like JFK and YYZ).

Makes sense Joost. Thank you. I suppose once the Combi is retired, AMS-MEX will likely become a 789 route then. Am I correct that MEX will be the last (or one of the last) 747 stations just like it happened with AF?
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air France - KLM future widebody deployment plans

Fri May 04, 2018 3:03 am

Joost wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
I can’t comment on the others, but YYZ sees 747/747M/77W/789. No Airbus flights. KLM does a huge amount of cargo shipping to YYZ, they frequently carry cars on the 747 combis. When those go away, it’s going to be interesting to see what they do, AMS-YYZ traffic is expanding pretty rapidly at over 10% per year, given that and the cargo demand, it’s likely it ends up being something like a daily 77W and a daily A333 during the high season. Winter can probably scale back to a daily 77W. The cars will have to find a dedicated cargo carrier to fly.


YYZ, much like JFK, is a bit of a joker in the fleet planning of KLM: they receive the aircraft that are not needed for other routes.
The reasons are simple: every long-haul aircraft can fly the route, and rotations are short so the can be scheduled easily between other flights. Also, there's plenty of demand so you can also fill the larger aircraft.

I saw the A330 was in the S17 schedule but indeed is no longer used in S18. It shows the flexibility of the destinations.


S17 was all 772 to YYZ. While anything can make the flight range wise, capacity is another story. Toronto is one of their highest demand routes, and is in the top 5 long haul routes from Amsterdam demand-wise, the same goes for JFK. I don't think it's quite so arbitrary.

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