adtall
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:53 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:18 am

As far as unrestricted frequencies go, DL does have 21, not 14, same as UA (DL's were a legacy from NW, as UA's were from PA back when the China bilateral was very restrictive). I believe the third set are on SEA-PVG. As for UA, I recall their third set as making up one of the ORD-China routes but not sure which.
 
102IAHexpress
Posts: 927
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:33 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:25 am

Wife and I moved to Chicago 18 months ago from Houston. Outside of the core there is a population exodus from the city. High taxes high crime cold weather. Also probably the most segregated city i have ever lived in. I also cant find any good mexican food in the city. Other than that its not so bad. I really like MDW.
 
soflaflyer
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:35 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:27 am

PVG wrote:
What if AA wet leased CX crew and equipment for a route like this? CX could probably earn better yields and also rotate aircraft for their HKG routes more efficiently. Anyone think that they could pull that off?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
NO, the unions would never go for it.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2173
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:34 am

JustSomeDood wrote:
iyerhari wrote:
Sorry not to takeover the Chicago thread, but I believe Hainan does very well in BOS and had read an article somewhere although months back that BOS was their profitable station. I believe PVG from BOS also does well. How's that BOS is doing well compared to ORD? The reason I say is people who are very cost conscious wouldn't mind taking a flight from BOS-JFK-PEK or PVG and saving dollars.


Significant amounts of Chinese students from all over the country studying in universities near the Boston area, many of whom are far from cost conscious. There's also pretty decent corporate links between both ends, considering Boston's size.


I think it has more to do with HU getting monopoly out of BOS than anything else.

Also HU gets a lot of feed from B6 at BOS. On the times I searched NYC to PEK, some of the best deals in j class are LGA-BOS-PEK. From East coast to PEK, connecting at BOS is actually pretty good option. I guess DL at DTW is another good option in terms of distance, but DL fares are too high.

deltal1011man wrote:
and he is more full of shit than a christmas turkey. That is simply spinning some small truth to make it seem like they are at some disadvantage that isn't there.

what is talking about unrestricted frequencies. I'm not exactly sure how many United has. I know SFO-PVG #2, LAX-PVG, IAD-PEK, EWR-PEK and EWR-PVG are restricted and I believe at least one set of 7 in ORD are restricted. SFO-PEK/PVG #1 came over from Pan Am and are unrestricted and I believe the other set of 7 were awarded to united back when they were unrestricted.

For Delta they only have 14 unrestricted frequencies. SEA-PEK and ATL-PVG. LAX-PVG, SEA-PVG, DTW-PEK and DTW-PVG are no different than what American has. If Delta wants to cut one of those routes they would have to seek dormancy just like American will have to do.

finally, even with the unrestricted frequencies American could have still requested for the DOT to remove them.

More importantly, how many NRT-China flights are United/Delta operating? none
How many frequencies are dormant for Delta/United? none. Both are actually still growing to China while American is getting smaller.

Fact is, American has always got its butt handed to them on ORD-China (I'd id bet DFW/LAX-China aren't much better) and they have been making excuses for years why they can't make it work. "we can't find the slots" "we don't have a partner" etc. etc.


Two things.

first now that USA-Japan have open skies I don't see why American couldn't operate at NRT-PVG/PEK flight just like Delta/United can. That is a lame ass excuse that wouldn't happen
second, none of the USA-Asia JVs (UA/NH, AA/JL, DL/KE) include China. They can't till the US/China agree to an open skies, if they ever do.


AA apparently actually does pretty well on DFW-PEK due to the Latin America to China flow that don't have non-stop out of China, but DFW is perfectly well located for. I'm confused at this talk of NRT-PVG/PEK. It makes no sense.
 
RemoFlyer
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:46 am

102IAHexpress wrote:
I also cant find any good mexican food in the city. Other than that its not so bad. I really like MDW.


try mi tocaya antojeria in logan square - you might get to speak spanish - you know - the language they speak in texas and south of the border. however there are few if any tex-mex hybridized food which i am guessing is what you are familiar with in houston. you could also try frontera, and a whole bunch on restaurants in pilsen. near midway there is also a great mexican goat meat joint.

i have to admit i havent heard this complaint about chicago before but - well - texans!
 
bostonvancouver
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:41 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:53 am

what's the chance of DoT granting route dormancy?
Last edited by bostonvancouver on Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:59 am

102IAHexpress wrote:
Wife and I moved to Chicago 18 months ago from Houston. Outside of the core there is a population exodus from the city. High taxes high crime cold weather. Also probably the most segregated city i have ever lived in. I also cant find any good mexican food in the city. Other than that its not so bad. I really like MDW.


Come on...about the only place (in US) that get better Mexican food than Houston would probably be El Paso or RGV (San Antonio also has its shares of fairly good one), or San Diego.

Try heading to Pilsen (W 18th), there should be at least one Mexican restaurant that's not that bad there (It's THE barrio in Chicago after all).

More off topic - I would say at least Chicago got a vibrant downtown (at least River North). Houston downtown is dead after 6pm. Chicago is definitely VERY segregated, though, especially compare to Houston.

Back on topic...

PVG wrote:
What if AA wet leased CX crew and equipment for a route like this? CX could probably earn better yields and also rotate aircraft for their HKG routes more efficiently. Anyone think that they could pull that off?


Not going to happen for multiple reasons. And what does CX gain from it? Nothing. Also, CX cost base is even higher than AA :scratchchin:
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5393
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:37 am

102IAHexpress wrote:
Wife and I moved to Chicago 18 months ago from Houston. Outside of the core there is a population exodus from the city. High taxes high crime cold weather. Also probably the most segregated city i have ever lived in. I also cant find any good mexican food in the city. Other than that its not so bad. I really like MDW.


If you can’t find good Mexican, I can only assume you’ve never been to Pilsen.
Next flight: IAH-NRT-IAH on NH in J
 
jayunited
Posts: 1779
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:20 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
102IAHexpress wrote:
Wife and I moved to Chicago 18 months ago from Houston. Outside of the core there is a population exodus from the city. High taxes high crime cold weather. Also probably the most segregated city i have ever lived in. I also cant find any good mexican food in the city. Other than that its not so bad. I really like MDW.


If you can’t find good Mexican, I can only assume you’ve never been to Pilsen.


Or Little Village both of those neighborhoods are filled with authentic Mexican restaurants service authentic Mexican food the problem is people listen to folks who don't live here and think the only safe places in Chicago is downtown and areas north of downtown and they avoid vibrant neighborhoods like Pilsen and Little Village and those neighborhoods are just as safe as downtown and areas north like Lincoln Park.
 
marvinanderson1
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:28 am

102IAHexpress wrote:
Wife and I moved to Chicago 18 months ago from Houston. Outside of the core there is a population exodus from the city. High taxes high crime cold weather. Also probably the most segregated city i have ever lived in. I also cant find any good mexican food in the city. Other than that its not so bad. I really like MDW.
Chicago has a crime rate less than Houston, violent crime rate in Houston is 87.8,Chicago was 58.9, property crime rate Houston 61.5, Chicago 52.1, the higher the number, the higher the crime rate, per the latest F.B.I figures. Maybe things have changed since their latest figures. Also many neighborhoods in Chicago are gaining population, Hyde Park, Woodlawn, Chinatown, just to name a few. Weather not as cold as years long past, global warming I guess, wind still a problem though. For me I will take Chicago weather over Houstons inferno. Also Chicago has a downtown second to none. And ORD growing in passengers despite a few AA hiccups.
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:10 am

Maybe I missed it but kind of surprised that no one brought up how short the leash was on PVG and NRT. It was only 3 months ago that this thread started. What happened in the 3 months since the PEK announcement? Why didn’t AA do this 3 months ago? Was there internal squabbling about what to do? I just don’t understand why wait 3 months to do this. There were reports in this thread with interviews about how these routes were also performing poorly, even soon after the initial PEK announcement. Did AA think that the route would perform stronger after publically stating how poorly they were? I don’t really understand the drop to 3 a week and have JAL pick up another 4 a week. What’s the point of flying 3 a week at all? I can understand how AA struggles with the China flights out of ORD but NRT?
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:52 am

I feel like to an extent AA is paying the price for OneWorld's sins. In Asia, OneWorld has no mainland Chinese partner (Hong Kong is it's own special deal). They're scrambling to pull in China Southern, which is probably the least attractive of the Big 3 Chinese Carriers (honestly, they might be better off chasing Hainan). The JAL and CX partnerships are good, but now take a look at what United can do at O'Hare through Star:

1) ANA's the stronger Japanese carrier and has used one of their limited HND slots on ORD. JAL didn't do that. UA/ANA are winning Chicago-Tokyo.
2) United has a much stronger Chinese partner in Air China. Team Star is whaling AA on Chicago-Beijing.
3) United has Asiana, which is much better positioned to serve ICN than AA will be for a good long while. Team Star is winning Chicago-Seoul.
4) In Hong Kong, it's probably closer to even between OneWorld and Star. United's been on ORD-HKG for several decades, and CX can leverage the HKG side of things.
5) That leaves Shanghai, which might not be performing well for United and Star, but that's one bad route they have to support out of the 5 big Asian markets. In contrast, three of the four big Asian markets AA was in were apparently complete dogs.

The same is true in Europe. Yeah, AA is winning London and Madrid. But they're getting killed in Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Munich, Zurich, Vienna, Brussels, Copenhagen, Warsaw, and Istanbul. Team Star and United are running rings around OneWorld even more thoroughly in Europe than in Asia. I feel like AA/OneWorld should at least be able to sustain five markets year round from ORD: LHR, DUB, MAN, MAD, and CDG; they can only do so to to LHR and MAD. Otherwise they're a completely seasonal force out of Chicago to Europe.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2032
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:22 am

caverunner17 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:

People are leaving all areas of Chicago. Poor minorities dont really have the means to move and set up life in a new region. Illinois is a basketcase financially and will likely lose 2 congressional districts in 2020

People are leaving the Chicagoland area not because of economic reasons but because other areas that are either have a lower COL or better amenities (outdoors, weather, etc) are booming and becoming more attractive. I grew up in the Chicago suburbs. I don't hate the city nor all of the job opportunities. But as an outdoorsy person, Denver better fit what I wanted with great weather year-round and a ton of trails and forests to explore.

That being said, as others have noted, the economy in Chicago is booming. It is one of the cheapest "world class" cities in the US as far as cost of living is concerned. Offers many of the amenities of NYC or LA for a fraction of the price.

As far as AA in Asia from ORD - they're just handing over passengers to UA. I have no idea why they can't make the routes work, but if they can't get a non-stop flight to the major Asian cities for their corporate clients, the corporate clients are going to go elsewhere.

You're drinking the Illinois koolaide. People are leaving IL in drioves and
taxes is the main reason. No Chicago is not booming. Chicago is the only US city where home prices are still below 2007 levels. Lower cost of living IS an economic reason. 30,000 people per year leave IL just for IN. They aren't moving for better outdoor activities.
 
User avatar
neomax
Posts: 948
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:26 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:29 am

So NRT is the last Asia route for AA out of ORD? I give it a few months before they cut whatever is left of that too.
 
caverunner17
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:50 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:19 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:

People are leaving all areas of Chicago. Poor minorities dont really have the means to move and set up life in a new region. Illinois is a basketcase financially and will likely lose 2 congressional districts in 2020

People are leaving the Chicagoland area not because of economic reasons but because other areas that are either have a lower COL or better amenities (outdoors, weather, etc) are booming and becoming more attractive. I grew up in the Chicago suburbs. I don't hate the city nor all of the job opportunities. But as an outdoorsy person, Denver better fit what I wanted with great weather year-round and a ton of trails and forests to explore.

That being said, as others have noted, the economy in Chicago is booming. It is one of the cheapest "world class" cities in the US as far as cost of living is concerned. Offers many of the amenities of NYC or LA for a fraction of the price.

As far as AA in Asia from ORD - they're just handing over passengers to UA. I have no idea why they can't make the routes work, but if they can't get a non-stop flight to the major Asian cities for their corporate clients, the corporate clients are going to go elsewhere.

You're drinking the Illinois koolaide. People are leaving IL in drioves and
taxes is the main reason. No Chicago is not booming. Chicago is the only US city where home prices are still below 2007 levels. Lower cost of living IS an economic reason. 30,000 people per year leave IL just for IN. They aren't moving for better outdoor activities.

And those people who leave for the IN or WI border are still commuting into Chicago for work and are part of the catchment for O'Hare.

The COL/Taxes aren't that bad in IL as a whole. I paid $330k for a 3/2 house last summer on the outskirts of the Denver Metro and only a dozen or so houses per week went on the market under $350k. Given the RE tax difference between CO and IL, we calculated that we could have gotten a house for about $255-260k in the Chicago suburbs and had the same mortgage payment. Except that there are hundreds of houses on the market at a given time in that price range in Chicago. I also paid about $450 to register my car here in CO this spring, vs the $120 in IL in the past due to CO having property tax assessments on cars.

With taxes, you win some, you lose some. The grass isn't always greener. Where IL is losing out is on retirees due to these taxes. But Retirees aren't flying to Beijing on a frequent basis anyways...

It's still significantly cheaper to work and live in IL/Chicagoland than to live in NYC, SFO, LA, Seattle, Boston, etc.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5110
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: AA drops ORD-PEK

Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:36 pm

dcajet wrote:
ckfred wrote:
psa1011 wrote:

Any idea why AA hasn't tried ORD-EZE/GRU?


I know that UA tried ORD-EZE, and I think AA tried ORD-EZE. Apparently, there simply isn't enough demand out of ORD and the Great Lakes region for service to some of the major, albeit distant. cities in South America.


Demand is low and as a connecting hub for Asia/Europe, ORD is simply too far north. ATL/IAH/DFW are better located for connections.


A hub is meant to serve a geographic region. So, if you are in the Southwest and need to fly to Europe, DFW and IAH are the better hubs. If you live in the Carolinas, ATL and CLT make sense. If you live in the Upper Midwest or the Upper Great Plains, then it's ORD, DTW, or MSP.

By the same token, ORD-LHR is about 7:45 flying time, while ATL-LHR is about 8:10 flying time. If I were flying out of some place about halfway between ORD and ATL, such as BNA or SDF, ORD is probably the quicker hub to connect for western Europe.

In my mind, ORD, IAH, and DFW are too far east to be great hubs for Asia. The hubs that make the most sense are YVR, SEA, SFO, and LAX. But, if you live in places like GRB, SAT, BHM, or IND, you probably don't have a lot of choices for non-stops to the West Coast. So, DL., UA, and AA all need hubs in the middle of the country.

Now, if you remember when CP was part of Oneworld, the plan was that AA and CP would connect a lot of major cities to YVR, scheduled for connections on CP to and from Asia. CP had and extensive Asia network that rivaled UA's network from SFO, LAX, and ORD, and NW's network from SEA and MSP. When CP was taken over by AC, that left AA with very little in the way of an Asia presence.
 
AAplat4life
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:41 pm

Back to the matter at hand, apparently the new leases at ORD give more flexibility to take back gates that are not fully utilized. The City is confident that, if AA is not using ORD assets to their full ability, they will reassign them to another airline be that United or whoever. Remember that ORD plans to move away from dedicated gates. So if AA starts to decline at ORD, it could be a hard turn around.
 
dcajet
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: AA drops ORD-PEK

Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:56 pm

ckfred wrote:
dcajet wrote:
ckfred wrote:

I know that UA tried ORD-EZE, and I think AA tried ORD-EZE. Apparently, there simply isn't enough demand out of ORD and the Great Lakes region for service to some of the major, albeit distant. cities in South America.


Demand is low and as a connecting hub for Asia/Europe, ORD is simply too far north. ATL/IAH/DFW are better located for connections.


A hub is meant to serve a geographic region. So, if you are in the Southwest and need to fly to Europe, DFW and IAH are the better hubs. If you live in the Carolinas, ATL and CLT make sense. If you live in the Upper Midwest or the Upper Great Plains, then it's ORD, DTW, or MSP.

By the same token, ORD-LHR is about 7:45 flying time, while ATL-LHR is about 8:10 flying time. If I were flying out of some place about halfway between ORD and ATL, such as BNA or SDF, ORD is probably the quicker hub to connect for western Europe.

In my mind, ORD, IAH, and DFW are too far east to be great hubs for Asia. The hubs that make the most sense are YVR, SEA, SFO, and LAX. But, if you live in places like GRB, SAT, BHM, or IND, you probably don't have a lot of choices for non-stops to the West Coast. So, DL., UA, and AA all need hubs in the middle of the country.

Now, if you remember when CP was part of Oneworld, the plan was that AA and CP would connect a lot of major cities to YVR, scheduled for connections on CP to and from Asia. CP had and extensive Asia network that rivaled UA's network from SFO, LAX, and ORD, and NW's network from SEA and MSP. When CP was taken over by AC, that left AA with very little in the way of an Asia presence.


I was referring to EZE in particular and to South America in general - ORD is not the most ideally located hub for connections if you come from S.A.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
102IAHexpress
Posts: 927
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:33 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:11 pm

I wasn't talking about Tex-Mex, (there isn't much of that either, sans Uncle Julio's), I said Mexican. If I said Tex-Mex please point out where I did. Anyways, no, Chicago does not have any Mexican food worth eating, including in the Pilsen neighborhood. In any event, my main criticism of the city would be how segregated it is. You can't have a "world class" city if there are whole sections of the city that you would never visit or interact with.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5110
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: AA drops ORD-PEK

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:17 pm

dcajet wrote:
ckfred wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Demand is low and as a connecting hub for Asia/Europe, ORD is simply too far north. ATL/IAH/DFW are better located for connections.


A hub is meant to serve a geographic region. So, if you are in the Southwest and need to fly to Europe, DFW and IAH are the better hubs. If you live in the Carolinas, ATL and CLT make sense. If you live in the Upper Midwest or the Upper Great Plains, then it's ORD, DTW, or MSP.

By the same token, ORD-LHR is about 7:45 flying time, while ATL-LHR is about 8:10 flying time. If I were flying out of some place about halfway between ORD and ATL, such as BNA or SDF, ORD is probably the quicker hub to connect for western Europe.

In my mind, ORD, IAH, and DFW are too far east to be great hubs for Asia. The hubs that make the most sense are YVR, SEA, SFO, and LAX. But, if you live in places like GRB, SAT, BHM, or IND, you probably don't have a lot of choices for non-stops to the West Coast. So, DL., UA, and AA all need hubs in the middle of the country.

Now, if you remember when CP was part of Oneworld, the plan was that AA and CP would connect a lot of major cities to YVR, scheduled for connections on CP to and from Asia. CP had and extensive Asia network that rivaled UA's network from SFO, LAX, and ORD, and NW's network from SEA and MSP. When CP was taken over by AC, that left AA with very little in the way of an Asia presence.


I was referring to EZE in particular and to South America in general - ORD is not the most ideally located hub for connections if you come from S.A.


It's not so much Chicago is too far north, as it is that there seems to be less business between Brazil/Argentina and the Great Lakes region, as well as less interest in South America for leisure. I know people who travel to Japan, China, and other parts of Asia for business from the Chicago area, and I know people who have gone to Asia for vacation. South America is completely off the radar of the Midwest. A friend of my wife does travel extensively for leisure, and she complains how she hates connecting at MIA for South America. She says that Midwesterners need to understand there is more to Latin America than Cozumel and Acapulco. Maybe then, ORD could get a non-stop to Rio or Buenos Aires.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 1842
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:21 pm

102IAHexpress wrote:
You can't have a "world class" city if there are whole sections of the city that you would never visit or interact with.


That exists in every major city, its not limited to Chicago.
 
dcajet
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: AA drops ORD-PEK

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:24 pm

ckfred wrote:
dcajet wrote:
ckfred wrote:

A hub is meant to serve a geographic region. So, if you are in the Southwest and need to fly to Europe, DFW and IAH are the better hubs. If you live in the Carolinas, ATL and CLT make sense. If you live in the Upper Midwest or the Upper Great Plains, then it's ORD, DTW, or MSP.

By the same token, ORD-LHR is about 7:45 flying time, while ATL-LHR is about 8:10 flying time. If I were flying out of some place about halfway between ORD and ATL, such as BNA or SDF, ORD is probably the quicker hub to connect for western Europe.

In my mind, ORD, IAH, and DFW are too far east to be great hubs for Asia. The hubs that make the most sense are YVR, SEA, SFO, and LAX. But, if you live in places like GRB, SAT, BHM, or IND, you probably don't have a lot of choices for non-stops to the West Coast. So, DL., UA, and AA all need hubs in the middle of the country.

Now, if you remember when CP was part of Oneworld, the plan was that AA and CP would connect a lot of major cities to YVR, scheduled for connections on CP to and from Asia. CP had and extensive Asia network that rivaled UA's network from SFO, LAX, and ORD, and NW's network from SEA and MSP. When CP was taken over by AC, that left AA with very little in the way of an Asia presence.


I was referring to EZE in particular and to South America in general - ORD is not the most ideally located hub for connections if you come from S.A.


It's not so much Chicago is too far north, as it is that there seems to be less business between Brazil/Argentina and the Great Lakes region, as well as less interest in South America for leisure. I know people who travel to Japan, China, and other parts of Asia for business from the Chicago area, and I know people who have gone to Asia for vacation. South America is completely off the radar of the Midwest. A friend of my wife does travel extensively for leisure, and she complains how she hates connecting at MIA for South America. She says that Midwesterners need to understand there is more to Latin America than Cozumel and Acapulco. Maybe then, ORD could get a non-stop to Rio or Buenos Aires.


You and I are saying the same thing... We had already said that there is little demand from ORD to deep South America and that as a connectinvg hub, ORD is not desirable when you come from S.A.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
chicawgo
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:35 pm

102IAHexpress wrote:
In any event, my main criticism of the city would be how segregated it is. You can't have a "world class" city if there are whole sections of the city that you would never visit or interact with.


Right because no other cities have bad neighborhoods that you wouldn't go. You're really scraping here.

Look, no city is perfect. Chicago has a lot of problems. Yes, it's more segregated than other cities. It's an issue. But that has nothing to do with its status as a global city. And actually, there is slow progress on it. Pretty much all new construction in neighborhoods the old Cabrini Green, Uptown, etc. are required to have a certain percentage of affordable housing and those areas are becoming much more diverse and desegregated. There was a recent article talking about the recently improved segregation score. Still a long way to go.

Personally, I care much more about livability, dense urban cultural core and getting around. Chicago is a great walking city, has great public transportation and 18 miles of completely public and open lakefront. I'll take that any day. But everyone's different.
 
ORDfan
Posts: 453
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:02 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:36 pm

I love how this devolves into a thread on macroeconomics with a bunch of subjective anecdotes taken from the USA Today headlines about murders. UAL is thriving at ORD, record amounts of foreign flag carriers coming, and int'l pax are up 10% YTD. Come November when NZ arrives, ORD will be a 6 continent airport. Chicago has more fortune 500 HQ's than any city in America after NYC.

But because AA can't hack it, it's somehow a criticism of Chicago/ORD and not AA, which has been the perennial industry laggard for years. It must be because their management in based in Texas... what do they know about global cosmopolitanism there [tongue firmly in cheek] :roll: . AA can fly retirees from PHX-LHR all they want, but it won't cloud the fact that Illinois has a higher GDP per capita than Texas (surprise), and that this one-time Houstonian voted with his feet.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:46 pm

AA's strategy of downsizing international business routes at JFK and ORD will come to bite them hard. A lot of business FF need AA's core international footprint. I get the routes might not be working, but at some point you cut too much. I always liked AA (I was their loyal flyer for a decade). Now I am DL out of LGA/JFK. If I changed, I would go to UA who offer an even bigger network out of the region. I live in Manhattan and prefer LGA but would switch to EWR. AA is just too small. Their planes old with no IFE. While their transcend frequencies are nice, I almost prefer DL & UA since they offer some wide bodies (I will go a bit out of my way to fly wide body J between LAX-JFK.
 
chicawgo
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:19 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
AA's strategy of downsizing international business routes at JFK and ORD will come to bite them hard. A lot of business FF need AA's core international footprint. I get the routes might not be working, but at some point you cut too much. I always liked AA (I was their loyal flyer for a decade). Now I am DL out of LGA/JFK. If I changed, I would go to UA who offer an even bigger network out of the region. I live in Manhattan and prefer LGA but would switch to EWR. AA is just too small. Their planes old with no IFE. While their transcend frequencies are nice, I almost prefer DL & UA since they offer some wide bodies (I will go a bit out of my way to fly wide body J between LAX-JFK.


Brilliantly put. It’s clearly texas’ fault!
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5393
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:30 pm

102IAHexpress wrote:
I wasn't talking about Tex-Mex, (there isn't much of that either, sans Uncle Julio's), I said Mexican. If I said Tex-Mex please point out where I did. Anyways, no, Chicago does not have any Mexican food worth eating, including in the Pilsen neighborhood. In any event, my main criticism of the city would be how segregated it is. You can't have a "world class" city if there are whole sections of the city that you would never visit or interact with.


I think you just have a burning desire to talk trash. Theres no way youve explored Pilsen and/or Little Village. Ive lived in LA, Dallas, Chicago, and now Houston and the authentic Mexican (in quality) food in Chicago, Houston, and Dallas is virtually identical. If anything, Chicago's Mexican food is more authentic because Chicago is the sole center of the Mexican community in the Midwest and the Midwest doesnt have a strong regional cuisine for which it could combine. Because Chicago is so segregated, Mexicans dont have as many opportunities to combine their cuisine and culture with others.

Chicago, Dallas, and Houston have foreign born Mexican communities that are almost identical in size. Houston has a much larger Hispanic population than the other two but thats only because Houston has way more Central Americans, Colombians, and Venezuelans than Chicago and Dallas.

And lets take that last statement, "whole sections of the city youve never explored"? Tell me how often you spent in Sunnyside, the Fifth Ward, and Greater Fondren Southwest? Unless you grew up in one of those neighborhoods, probably not much. Why would people in Chicago, LA, NYC, etc. be any different about their less desirable areas?

For the record, I love living in Houston more than I loved living in Chicago but some of this stuff your saying is BS.
Next flight: IAH-NRT-IAH on NH in J
 
102IAHexpress
Posts: 927
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:33 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:53 pm

Where did I make any direct comparisons with Houston? If I did please point it out. Seems like the chicago people have some sort of complex with Houston? As far as where I grew up, I grew up in Alief (predominantly black / immigrant area of Houston). For the record i'm part Hispanic/black. Trust me when I say Chicago is the most segregated city I have lived in, that is not "BS." The Mexican food is not that good here, again not "BS." In my opinion, Chicago has world class neighborhoods. But it is not a world class city. Ask someone living on the south side if they think chicago is world class.
 
chicawgo
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:58 pm

102IAHexpress wrote:
Where did I make any direct comparisons with Houston? If I did please point it out. Seems like the chicago people have some sort of complex with Houston? As far as where I grew up, I grew up in Alief (predominantly black / immigrant area of Houston). For the record i'm part Hispanic/black. Trust me when I say Chicago is the most segregated city I have lived in, that is not "BS." The Mexican food is not that good here, again not "BS." In my opinion, Chicago has world class neighborhoods. But it is not a world class city. Ask someone living on the south side if they think chicago is world class.


Every city has bad neighborhoods!! Do you understand what goes into being a world class city? Would everyone that lives in bad NY neighborhoods say that? Would the primarily Muslim areas of Paris and London that struggle with culture assimilation day they live in world class cities? You’re just spewing nonsense.

Regardless, as I said before, every organization that ranks world cities has Chicago as an Alpha. So whatever you believe is irrelevant.
 
Prost
Posts: 2254
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:01 pm

What I’m taking from this thread is AA is reducing their Asia flying because of a dearth of authentic Mexican eateries. Makes perfect sense.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5393
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:05 pm

102IAHexpress wrote:
The Mexican food is not that good here, again not "BS." In my opinion, Chicago has world class neighborhoods. But it is not a world class city. .


Those statements are both very much BS actually and no Im not a Chicago person. I lived there for two years.

You are correct about the segregation, but these statements dont have validity.
Next flight: IAH-NRT-IAH on NH in J
 
SCQ83
Posts: 4659
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:12 pm

I don't think Chicago is not a world-class city, but the critics have some points. Chicago is lagging behind other cities like San Francisco, Seattle or Austin.

The fact that housing is so affordable in Chicago compared to any of those cities (and LA, NY, BOS, SAN... basically other large city in the US) while definitely great for the people living there, is also a proof that somehow Chicago is lying behind those other cities in attracting international investors (I think this might be a reason for Chicago - Asia being weak), those "millennials" that every other city loves to have and new economy / tech companies.
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1207
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:20 pm

Prost wrote:
What I’m taking from this thread is AA is reducing their Asia flying because of a dearth of authentic Mexican eateries. Makes perfect sense.


Brilliant.

(Best post of the year)
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5393
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:28 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I don't think Chicago is not a world-class city, but the critics have some points. Chicago is lagging behind other cities like San Francisco, Seattle or Austin.

The fact that housing is so affordable in Chicago compared to any of those cities (and LA, NY, BOS, SAN... basically other large city in the US) while definitely great for the people living there, is also a proof that somehow Chicago is lying behind those other cities in attracting international investors (I think this might be a reason for Chicago - Asia being weak), those "millennials" that every other city loves to have and new economy / tech companies.


When you say Chicago is lagging behind Austin and Seattle, in what regard?

A huge reason Chicago is so affordable compared to many other cities has to do with three things:

1) The weather is a tough pill to swallow for those not from the Midwest.
2) Chicago was built in the middle of a corn field. There is lots of room for the catchment area to expand in most directions.
3) Chicago's economy is very diverse so it doesnt go through boom and bust cycles. As such, you dont have people racing to buy or sell there at any point in time.

People like the west coast cities for weather and natural beauty. The later creates physical barriers that keeps people from building in every direction. NYC and DC are their own beasts. NYC is the financial capital of the world and DC is our capital which will always have an abundance of high paying jobs in the government and among contractors. Boston is the tech center of the East Coast and has a plethora of universities that spew forth tons of college aged kids that are qualified for high paying jobs which in turn drives up the cost of living.

Chicago isnt in the same boat as the others on the East Coast, it has frigid winters and doesnt have the amount of natural barriers as the cities out west. That makes it cheaper. However, what Chicago does have is a mad rush for people to leave the burbs and move back into the city. Its the opposite of most cities nationwide. That is a huge benefit to the city and makes it more vibrant.
Next flight: IAH-NRT-IAH on NH in J
 
Judge1310
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:33 pm

Prost wrote:
What I’m taking from this thread is AA is reducing their Asia flying because of a dearth of authentic Mexican eateries. Makes perfect sense.


#SHOOK
:rotfl:
 
garybow
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:39 am

Re: AA drops ORD-PEK

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:42 pm

ckfred wrote:
dcajet wrote:
ckfred wrote:

I know that UA tried ORD-EZE, and I think AA tried ORD-EZE. Apparently, there simply isn't enough demand out of ORD and the Great Lakes region for service to some of the major, albeit distant. cities in South America.


Demand is low and as a connecting hub for Asia/Europe, ORD is simply too far north. ATL/IAH/DFW are better located for connections.


A hub is meant to serve a geographic region. So, if you are in the Southwest and need to fly to Europe, DFW and IAH are the better hubs. If you live in the Carolinas, ATL and CLT make sense. If you live in the Upper Midwest or the Upper Great Plains, then it's ORD, DTW, or MSP.

By the same token, ORD-LHR is about 7:45 flying time, while ATL-LHR is about 8:10 flying time. If I were flying out of some place about halfway between ORD and ATL, such as BNA or SDF, ORD is probably the quicker hub to connect for western Europe.

In my mind, ORD, IAH, and DFW are too far east to be great hubs for Asia. The hubs that make the most sense are YVR, SEA, SFO, and LAX. But, if you live in places like GRB, SAT, BHM, or IND, you probably don't have a lot of choices for non-stops to the West Coast. So, DL., UA, and AA all need hubs in the middle of the country.

Now, if you remember when CP was part of Oneworld, the plan was that AA and CP would connect a lot of major cities to YVR, scheduled for connections on CP to and from Asia. CP had and extensive Asia network that rivaled UA's network from SFO, LAX, and ORD, and NW's network from SEA and MSP. When CP was taken over by AC, that left AA with very little in the way of an Asia presence.


IND has plenty of choices/options for nontops to the west coast. If anything IND has too much capacity to the WC. Alaska recently stopped their nonstop to SFO instead of trying to dislodge United.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:47 pm

Two predictions:

1) AA's Corporate Account Department and Corporate Travel Mangers in the Chicagoland area are going to have some very awkward conversations in the near future.
2) AA will publicly regret leaving ORD-PEK/PVG within the next 5 years in the same way that UA now laments leaving JFK as a short sighted, bone-headed decision.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2701
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:52 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
Prost wrote:
What I’m taking from this thread is AA is reducing their Asia flying because of a dearth of authentic Mexican eateries. Makes perfect sense.


Brilliant.

(Best post of the year)


Seconded, all in favor, aye!
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:54 pm

102IAHexpress wrote:
Where did I make any direct comparisons with Houston? If I did please point it out. Seems like the chicago people have some sort of complex with Houston? As far as where I grew up, I grew up in Alief (predominantly black / immigrant area of Houston). For the record i'm part Hispanic/black. Trust me when I say Chicago is the most segregated city I have lived in, that is not "BS." The Mexican food is not that good here, again not "BS." In my opinion, Chicago has world class neighborhoods. But it is not a world class city. Ask someone living on the south side if they think chicago is world class.


That's b/c you grew up in Alief LOL. SW Houston has always been the exception in terms of how diverse it is compare to pretty much every other cities in US. Houston has places like Fifth Ward or Sunnyside that are just as bad as Chicago South Side/West Side anyway. (Just FYI I have relatives that live in Alief, although my immediate family lives further out in Sugar Land).

Speaking of Demographics, one thing Chicago always had been is an overcapacity to (East) Asia relative to the amount of Asians in the metro area. Chicago doesn't have that many more (East) Asian population (percentage-wise) than the like of Houston, DFW, or Atlanta; however, it has way more flights to East Asia due to ORD being a giant hub and business center. Then there's also AA being weak. For example, on ORD-NRT, everyone else (UA, NH, JL) can fill a 777 (UA on a 772, JL/NH on a 77W), but AA is using a 788 on that route.
 
mikejepp
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:47 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:55 pm

Any chance some of these China frequencies could be moved to JFK or PHL?
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2701
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:00 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
I don't think Chicago is not a world-class city, but the critics have some points. Chicago is lagging behind other cities like San Francisco, Seattle or Austin.

The fact that housing is so affordable in Chicago compared to any of those cities (and LA, NY, BOS, SAN... basically other large city in the US) while definitely great for the people living there, is also a proof that somehow Chicago is lying behind those other cities in attracting international investors (I think this might be a reason for Chicago - Asia being weak), those "millennials" that every other city loves to have and new economy / tech companies.


When you say Chicago is lagging behind Austin and Seattle, in what regard?

A huge reason Chicago is so affordable compared to many other cities has to do with three things:

1) The weather is a tough pill to swallow for those not from the Midwest.
2) Chicago was built in the middle of a corn field. There is lots of room for the catchment area to expand in most directions.
3) Chicago's economy is very diverse so it doesnt go through boom and bust cycles. As such, you dont have people racing to buy or sell there at any point in time.

People like the west coast cities for weather and natural beauty. The later creates physical barriers that keeps people from building in every direction. NYC and DC are their own beasts. NYC is the financial capital of the world and DC is our capital which will always have an abundance of high paying jobs in the government and among contractors. Boston is the tech center of the East Coast and has a plethora of universities that spew forth tons of college aged kids that are qualified for high paying jobs which in turn drives up the cost of living.

Chicago isnt in the same boat as the others on the East Coast, it has frigid winters and doesnt have the amount of natural barriers as the cities out west. That makes it cheaper. However, what Chicago does have is a mad rush for people to leave the burbs and move back into the city. Its the opposite of most cities nationwide. That is a huge benefit to the city and makes it more vibrant.


Couldn't have said it better but I would add one thing. The lower cost of housing can also be attributed to other reasons:

1) a development friendly environment that allows for more development resulting in more competition. The Daley and Rahm administrations were and are both encouraging of development. Also NIMBYISM is much less an issue here than it is on the coasts.
2) Huge swaths of downtown that are available for redevelopment. Urban 'renewal' was not kind to Chicago but did not destroy it, but it left lots of development opportunities. Much more that you would see in NYC, BOS or SFO.
 
klakzky123
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:00 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
102IAHexpress wrote:
I wasn't talking about Tex-Mex, (there isn't much of that either, sans Uncle Julio's), I said Mexican. If I said Tex-Mex please point out where I did. Anyways, no, Chicago does not have any Mexican food worth eating, including in the Pilsen neighborhood. In any event, my main criticism of the city would be how segregated it is. You can't have a "world class" city if there are whole sections of the city that you would never visit or interact with.


I think you just have a burning desire to talk trash. Theres no way youve explored Pilsen and/or Little Village. Ive lived in LA, Dallas, Chicago, and now Houston and the authentic Mexican (in quality) food in Chicago, Houston, and Dallas is virtually identical. If anything, Chicago's Mexican food is more authentic because Chicago is the sole center of the Mexican community in the Midwest and the Midwest doesnt have a strong regional cuisine for which it could combine. Because Chicago is so segregated, Mexicans dont have as many opportunities to combine their cuisine and culture with others.

Chicago, Dallas, and Houston have foreign born Mexican communities that are almost identical in size. Houston has a much larger Hispanic population than the other two but thats only because Houston has way more Central Americans, Colombians, and Venezuelans than Chicago and Dallas.

And lets take that last statement, "whole sections of the city youve never explored"? Tell me how often you spent in Sunnyside, the Fifth Ward, and Greater Fondren Southwest? Unless you grew up in one of those neighborhoods, probably not much. Why would people in Chicago, LA, NYC, etc. be any different about their less desirable areas?

For the record, I love living in Houston more than I loved living in Chicago but some of this stuff your saying is BS.


Grew up around Sharpstown (both before and after white flight). I've seen the surrounding neighborhoods on both sides of history. Great city to live in (minus the whole flooding issues) but as you point out all cities of that size have these sorts of problems. I would argue that Chicago's are some of the worst but its not like Houston is immune to the same challenges.
 
102IAHexpress
Posts: 927
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:33 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:03 pm

chicawgo wrote:


Regardless, as I said before, every organization that ranks world cities has Chicago as an Alpha. So whatever you believe is irrelevant.


Every organization that ranks growth/decline in cities has Chicago losing inhabitants in droves. Whether you belive that or not is irrlevant.
 
chicawgo
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:25 pm

102IAHexpress wrote:
chicawgo wrote:


Regardless, as I said before, every organization that ranks world cities has Chicago as an Alpha. So whatever you believe is irrelevant.


Every organization that ranks growth/decline in cities has Chicago losing inhabitants in droves. Whether you belive that or not is irrlevant.


You keep on changing the subject every time you post. I never argued that Chicago has lost population! Show me where I said that.

The point is that doesn’t matter. Young educated professionals are moving in and that is spurring growth. What does a difference of 12,000 people year over year have to do with it? Chicago is an old, established city with a diverse economy. No one expects it to be growing in population like southern and western cities. I don’t get your point. Youre just attempting to bash Chicago without Any context or awareness behind it.

People here probably would be happy with a decreased population. The trib just had an article that they’re looking to cap rideshare licenses as they’ve just reached over 66,000. There’s plenty of business going on in Chicago.
 
102IAHexpress
Posts: 927
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:33 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:37 pm

I think it does matter. Generally speaking a lower supply of inhabitants in a city demands less air service. Inspite of chicagos “awesomeness” there was just not enough demand for all the air service to Asia.
There are lots of explanations for this but the bottom line is, for the reasons posted above people are moving out of chicago. That doesnt bode well for any chicago industry including airlines.
 
SATexan
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:49 pm

Re: AA drops ORD-PEK

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:50 pm

United787 wrote:
SATexan wrote:
Further, ORD isn't the city that it used to be 10 years ago. IMHO the Overall business climate in Chicago is down a notch.


You're kidding right? I understand that is the popular feeling from people who have never been to Chicago but it is so far from truth.

1) There are more construction cranes for residential highrises in downtown Chicago than in any other City in the US.
2) There have been an enormous shift of HQ from the suburbs to downtown: McDonald's; Beam-Suntory; ConAgra Foods; Kraft Heinz; Motorola Solutions; United; Mead Johnson; Gogo; Hillshire; Wilson Sporting Goods...
3) Plus more HQ moves from elsewhere to Chicago including: GE Healthcare; Caterpillar...
4) ORD is just finishing the largest airport construction project in the US (OMP - runway reconfiguration) and about to start on a close second (O'Hare 21 - terminal expansion)

Chicago has a incredibly diversified economy on a global scale; a huge young talent base; relatively affordable when compared to NYC, SFO, LAX, MIA, SEA; excellent transportation options...


I understand your passion for Chicago, United787 and others. But I am speaking from experiences that my friends have had at the City Hall and BACP. It is difficult (relative to other cities) to start a new business. The corruption levels are very high. Tax rates, fees and ancillaries are high. Permit / paper work turnaround times are longer. Local governance has been a long time problem. This is why I suggested that the business climate is down a notch. Other cities have caught up well.

If you think that Chicago is a Top-notch Business friendly city, then I wish you well !!
Last edited by SATexan on Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:51 pm

102IAHexpress wrote:
I think it does matter. Generally speaking a lower supply of inhabitants in a city demands less air service. Inspite of chicagos “awesomeness” there was just not enough demand for all the air service to Asia.
There are lots of explanations for this but the bottom line is, for the reasons posted above people are moving out of chicago. That doesnt bode well for any chicago industry including airlines.


Again, just maybe, MAYBE AA can't compete, and it has nothing to do with whether Chicago lose population or anything? The thing is, if AA is telling the truth, they never make money on the PEK and PVG route. They stay there b/c it's those market that they would think would eventually grow. But nope, the growth is not there, and AA just throw in the towel and cut both routes lose.

And also, maybe, just MAYBE, ORD had been overcapacity all these time? There are 5 daily flights from NYC to Tokyo (2x each JFK-HND and JFK-NRT + UA's EWR-NRT), there are also 5 daily flights from Chicago to Tokyo (4x ORD-NRT + NH's ORD-HND), which is also the same as SF Bay Area (2x SFO-NRT, 2x SFO-HND, 1x SJC-NRT). The only two metro areas that has more daily flights to/from Tokyo are LAX (6x LAX-NRT + 3x LAX-HND) and HNL (12x HNL-NRT + 18/wk HNL-HND). Something has to give.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5393
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:02 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
And also, maybe, just MAYBE, ORD had been overcapacity all these time? There are 5 daily flights from NYC to Tokyo (2x each JFK-HND and JFK-NRT + UA's EWR-NRT), there are also 5 daily flights from Chicago to Tokyo (4x ORD-NRT + NH's ORD-HND), which is also the same as SF Bay Area (2x SFO-NRT, 2x SFO-HND, 1x SJC-NRT). The only two metro areas that has more daily flights to/from Tokyo are LAX (6x LAX-NRT + 3x LAX-HND) and HNL (12x HNL-NRT + 18/wk HNL-HND). Something has to give.


This 100%.

Chicago simply had too much capacity to PEK and PVG. It would have been fine if it was just AA and UA, but once MU and HU came in, there was just no way three carriers could co-exist on markets that are about 130-150 PDEW a piece. Two carriers will work fine but not three.

ORD-TYO is a different story though. Its a great connecting point to the rest of Asia, UA/AA have partner hubs in TYO, and ORD-NRT is actually quite huge at over 300 PDEW.
Next flight: IAH-NRT-IAH on NH in J
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:15 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
And also, maybe, just MAYBE, ORD had been overcapacity all these time? There are 5 daily flights from NYC to Tokyo (2x each JFK-HND and JFK-NRT + UA's EWR-NRT), there are also 5 daily flights from Chicago to Tokyo (4x ORD-NRT + NH's ORD-HND), which is also the same as SF Bay Area (2x SFO-NRT, 2x SFO-HND, 1x SJC-NRT). The only two metro areas that has more daily flights to/from Tokyo are LAX (6x LAX-NRT + 3x LAX-HND) and HNL (12x HNL-NRT + 18/wk HNL-HND). Something has to give.


This 100%.

Chicago simply had too much capacity to PEK and PVG. It would have been fine if it was just AA and UA, but once MU and HU came in, there was just no way three carriers could co-exist on markets that are about 130-150 PDEW a piece. Two carriers will work fine but not three.

ORD-TYO is a different story though. Its a great connecting point to the rest of Asia, UA/AA have partner hubs in TYO, and ORD-NRT is actually quite huge at over 300 PDEW.


True. And on another note, AA is only seasonally reducing NRT to 3/wk. Once high season (Summer) comes around, those frequency will be filled back (although by JL).

My other point is that you're still talking about quite a bit of capacity to/from TYO. Even after the reduction, Chicago still has more flights to/from Tokyo than all other metro areas outside of LA, SF Bay Area, NYC, and Honolulu. PDEW doesn't surprise me at all anyway (I've drove around Schaumburg and Arlington Heights, the amount of Japanese businesses in that area is insane, almost comparable to LA).
 
RemoFlyer
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:01 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
And also, maybe, just MAYBE, ORD had been overcapacity all these time? There are 5 daily flights from NYC to Tokyo (2x each JFK-HND and JFK-NRT + UA's EWR-NRT), there are also 5 daily flights from Chicago to Tokyo (4x ORD-NRT + NH's ORD-HND), which is also the same as SF Bay Area (2x SFO-NRT, 2x SFO-HND, 1x SJC-NRT). The only two metro areas that has more daily flights to/from Tokyo are LAX (6x LAX-NRT + 3x LAX-HND) and HNL (12x HNL-NRT + 18/wk HNL-HND). Something has to give.


This 100%.

Chicago simply had too much capacity to PEK and PVG. It would have been fine if it was just AA and UA, but once MU and HU came in, there was just no way three carriers could co-exist on markets that are about 130-150 PDEW a piece. Two carriers will work fine but not three.

ORD-TYO is a different story though. Its a great connecting point to the rest of Asia, UA/AA have partner hubs in TYO, and ORD-NRT is actually quite huge at over 300 PDEW.


True. And on another note, AA is only seasonally reducing NRT to 3/wk. Once high season (Summer) comes around, those frequency will be filled back (although by JL).

My other point is that you're still talking about quite a bit of capacity to/from TYO. Even after the reduction, Chicago still has more flights to/from Tokyo than all other metro areas outside of LA, SF Bay Area, NYC, and Honolulu. PDEW doesn't surprise me at all anyway (I've drove around Schaumburg and Arlington Heights, the amount of Japanese businesses in that area is insane, almost comparable to LA).


did you not get the message upthread? its all going to the dogs, and besides, the mexican food is awful.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos