PHLspecial
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:58 pm

Swadian wrote:
AA/JL really ought to get on the ball and start PHL-TYO and MIA-TYO with 787s or an AA A332 from PHL.


I didn't know that the A332 has the range to make it from PHL to Tokyo. Can it?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:22 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
Swadian wrote:
AA/JL really ought to get on the ball and start PHL-TYO and MIA-TYO with 787s or an AA A332 from PHL.


I didn't know that the A332 has the range to make it from PHL to Tokyo. Can it?


Great Circle distance is 5870nmi, so it's definitely doable on a A332 (A333, on the other hand, would be really cutting it close).

winginit wrote:
Lootess wrote:
You are completely wrong.


No. I'm not.

Lootess wrote:
Delta is doing just fine on LAX-PVG


No. They're not. When Ed was in LAX maybe two months ago he said very clearly in his town hall that LAXPVG was DL's worst LAX performer, was a notable loss-maker, and that a top corporate priority was turning the route around - hence the upgraded equipment that was placed on the route.

Lootess wrote:
because of the China Eastern relationship and good slot times.


Complete nonsense on the MU relationship front, and DL's slots are comparable to everyone else on the route. The MU relationship does virtually nothing for DL's LAXPVG with the exception of marginal CN PoS gains via codeshare. DL and MU obviously don't have any sort of joint venture, and thus they are fierce competitors within both the LAXPVG market and the broader TPAC entity. Connectivity on MU over PVG doesn't really benefit DL's LAXPVG flight because flow yields over PVG are so trash compared to local yields, and thus AA, UA, DL, and MU are all at each other's throats on the pricing front to capture the local traffic. There's simply too much capacity on the route, and shy of a proper JV between MU and DL that's years away the two can't really help one another effectively.


My two cents is that yield out of LAX will be crap overall. Only 2 out of 14 (soon 15 if HU is really starting LAX-XIY) airports in PRC that have non-stop to US doesn't have a flight to LAX (WUH, which only has CZ service to SFO, and FOC, which only has MF service to JFK, although FOC-JFK is a large market due to VFR traffic; MF does fly to XMN from LAX, though). After that it's JFK and SFO, both with non-stop to 6 PRC airports. Yes, LAX-Mainland is a large market, but also insanely competitive and fares are just, well, not all that high.
 
winginit
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:33 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
My two cents is that yield out of LAX will be crap overall. Only 2 out of 14 (soon 15 if HU is really starting LAX-XIY) airports in PRC that have non-stop to US doesn't have a flight to LAX (WUH, which only has CZ service to SFO, and FOC, which only has MF service to JFK, although FOC-JFK is a large market due to VFR traffic; MF does fly to XMN from LAX, though). After that it's JFK and SFO, both with non-stop to 6 PRC airports. Yes, LAX-Mainland is a large market, but also insanely competitive and fares are just, well, not all that high.


That's spot on, and the result of that is that the US3's CN3 partners aren't really doing much for them in this age of Chinese airports throwing subsidies around to capture nonstop service to the US (often LAX). The traditional partner logic from the perspective of the US3 has been hey you partner let me United for example use my US PoS sales engine to get this passenger to a beyond spoke on your metal and we can both command a notable premium for that traffic. It's turned on it's head specifically in China because yields to say XMN from LAX are so much lower than the already depressed nonstop local market between LAX and PVG/PEK. There's no incentive whatsoever to flow passengers over the CN gateway hubs, and that's not going to change until the airport merry-go-round of subsidies subsides.
 
jayunited
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:49 pm

winginit wrote:

No. They're not. When Ed was in LAX maybe two months ago he said very clearly in his town hall that LAXPVG was DL's worst LAX performer, was a notable loss-maker, and that a top corporate priority was turning the route around - hence the upgraded equipment that was placed on the route.


I think you are right I vaguely remember UA stating something similar when we switch over our LAX-PVG route from a 77E to a 788 it was because we were loosing money on this route with the 77E and although UA has since upguaged the route to a 789. I will not assume UA's route is profitable or a loss maker because on this issue UA has since gone silent so we don't know.

As far as route dormancy I think for the near future AA will probably be allowed to sit on them I don't see DL starting ATL-PEK, or LAX-PEK, on the same token I don't think UA is interested in IAD-PVG, DEN-China, or any IAH-China routes either.
 
ckfred
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:56 pm

Austin787 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
[Over all this kind of leaves me wondering what they’re doing by shrinking the J cabin on the 787s, is this really going to pay off long term for any of their long haul flying or if we’re going to see further reductions


on the 788 or 789? The 788 only has 28 J seats as it is so....

The 788 will go from 28J seats to 20J seats when PE is installed. The 789 has 30J seats and PE.

Whether reducing J on the 788 is the right move depends on 2 things:
1) How often do they sell more than 20J seats on 788 flights
2) How much impact premium economy would have on J sales


A lot of companies have become very tight-fisted with premium travel. Years ago, my wife worked for a company that allowed F travel within the U.S. on flights over 4 hours. So, ORD to the West Coast was F travel, as was ORD to Europe, Latin America, and Asia. Then, the minimum for U.S. travel in F was raised to 5 hours, meaning that only people flying trans-con, as well as ATL to the West Coast, could fly F. Eventually, all U.S. travel was in Y. As for Europe, Asia, and Latin America, some travel got downgraded to J. Then, at one point, only East Coast to Asia was in F. And then came the limit for travel to Europe and Latin America. For someone traveling to Europe from the East Coast, it was Y. It was the same for people in Atlanta and Florida flying to some portions of South America.

In talking to friends who either work in manufacturing or are consultants, reductions in J travel seem to be very commonplace.

Remember that J was introduced as a way of letting business travelers get something better than Y without breaking the expense account. That was back when international F was very roomy, but didn't have lie-down seats. Today, international J is far better than it was when introduced in the late 80s and early 90s, but it's a lot more expensive than when it was introduced. Hence, premium Y.

Having flown premium Y on BA between ORD and LHR, it does skew towards road warriors during the week, and the cabin is full. On the weekends, I found it to be half to three-quarters full, usually with people who are willing to pay for a reasonable cost over Y.
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:22 pm

JL has taken over the dropped AA frequencies ORD-NRT: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/280463/jal-s19-international-network-changes-as-of-10sep18/
Tokyo Narita – Chicago O’Hare 08JUN19 – 03SEP19 Increase from 7 to 11 weekly, 787-8 operates the new flights, subject to Government Approval
JL010 NRT1050 – 0850ORD 77W D
JL8056 NRT1755 – 1555ORD 788 x257

Swadian wrote:
I think AA wants JL's high-J heavies to take the Business Class traffic, which is why JL is increasing frequency to ORD which AA shrinks.

Or was this announced already?
727200 wrote:
$30M a year lost? That means they averaged over $85,000 a day in losses.

No wonder they decided to bail.

Is this confirmed? Wow! Means they would need to collect around ~$400 more per passenger to break even.
UA DL LH NW AA --- Next DEN-IND (UA TBD)
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usairways85
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:03 pm

I do not really get this side of the new schedule

JL009 ORD1240 – 1535+1NRT 77W D
JL8055 ORD1300 – 1555+1NRT 788 x136
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:41 am

Quietly on Friday, AA applied for dormancy waivers to retain its 14 Zone-1 US-China until November 2019.

AA says they face "economic challenges in line with current market conditions". They seek the "flexibility to rapidly resume those services at such time the market becomes more favorable."

Additionally, AA says that capacity in the market outpaces demand and has created an environment with weak bookings making flights not economically viable currently.

AA argues, its in the public interest DOT grants them the waiver and allows AA and oneworld the opportunity to protect market competition in the future and also cite that DL back in 2008 similarly received dormancy waiver for several China frequencies due "less favorable market conditions" at the time.

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janders
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:30 pm

Think deciding factor will be if other airlines oppose the dormancy and offer to use the frequencies immediately.

Also if AA is to be really believed they need to get the flights back on schedule effective 11/1/19 then. With GDS listing 330-days out they should do that by new years to have credibility, otherwise, its pretty clear they are just buying time with no concrete plans.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
lavalampluva
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:48 pm

When it’s less expensive to go from the US Midwest to TYO via Europe you know somethings not right.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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UPlog
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:53 pm

Considering how horrendously terrible these flights were doing financially for AA, I can't see them restarting in 2019.

However, they will clearly tell the DOT any story they can to retain the slots. Hopefully the DOT does not fall for it, especially if other carriers step forward and area ready to launch service with immediate effect.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:37 pm

I suspect the way it might play out it the DOT grants the dormancy but puts a restriction on the route actually resuming in Nov 2019.

That way the DOT puts the pressure on AA to either put up or shut up. Then AA would have to make a real decision about the viability of the flying and its long-term goals versus seeing authorities used by competitors.
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rbavfan
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Re: AA drops ORD-PEK

Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:57 pm

Flighty wrote:
janders wrote:
Yes I would hope DL or even UA oppose the dormancy and seek reallocation of the frequencies.

Gotta give AA credit though. They won't endlessly nurse a loss making route.


Okay... so then what?

Why are they in China? Why are any US airlines there?

Dropping ORD PEK has a lot of symbolism:
* We don't think ORD China is going to improve anytime soon
* We lose symbolically to UA and we accept it
* ORD to Cancun is more of a serious business opportunity than Beijing.
* We will lose the frequencies and we don't care
* Our strategy was based on a future that never came. Our strategy was wrong all along



Midwest to CUN has always been a great business route whether Big 3 or ULCC. It's quick, easy and make money. Chicago China is a fight with other Chinese carriers & UA.
 
Swadian
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:51 pm

UPlog wrote:
Considering how horrendously terrible these flights were doing financially for AA, I can't see them restarting in 2019.

However, they will clearly tell the DOT any story they can to retain the slots. Hopefully the DOT does not fall for it, especially if other carriers step forward and area ready to launch service with immediate effect.


AA could use the frequencies from other hubs in order to sit on them, such as increasing frequency from DFW or trying PHL or MIA.

Those frequencies can only be used by US carriers and I don't see any routes where DL or UA would use them in this environment.
Inland Streamliner
 
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United787
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:58 pm

Swadian wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Those frequencies can only be used by US carriers and I don't see any routes where DL or UA would use them in this environment.


DL has proposed MSP-PVG. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1406713
 
Prost
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:04 pm

The MSP-PVG are using frequencies returned from UA (3x GUM-PVG) HA (3x PEK-HNL) and 1 unused frequency. DL isn’t poking the silver eagle. Yet.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:38 pm

First objection is in --

Delta says while commercial conditions can fluctuate and require airlines to make schedule revisions, the scarcity of available China zone-1 frequencies is such that they should not be left unused particularly if other carriers seek to operate services using them. While DL has applied to add MSP-PVG using 7 other available weekly Zone-1 frequencies, should another carrier also apply for those, or these14 AA frequencies, then the DOT should conduct a full route proceeding to maximize public benefit.
Only in the event that no other US carriers desire additional frequencies then the DOT may consider a short-term dormancy waiver grant for AA.
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jbs2886
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:42 pm

LAXintl wrote:
First objection is in --

Delta says while commercial conditions can fluctuate and require airlines to make schedule revisions, the scarcity of available China zone-1 frequencies is such that they should not be left unused particularly if other carriers seek to operate services using them. While DL has applied to add MSP-PVG using 7 other available weekly Zone-1 frequencies, should another carrier also apply for those, or these14 AA frequencies, then the DOT should conduct a full route proceeding to maximize public benefit.
Only in the event that no other US carriers desire additional frequencies then the DOT may consider a short-term dormancy waiver grant for AA.


I would clarify that this is a contingent objection. Specifically, DL says it does NOT object to the requested relief by AA if its MSP-PVG request is granted. This also tells us DL isn't requesting other China frequencies.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... 19077-0424
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:11 pm

And United submits its response.

Says DOT should deny AA's dormancy waiver request and instead make American’s 14 Chicago-China Zone 1 frequencies immediately available for allocation to other airlines, bringing the total number of available frequencies to 21.
By doing so, both Delta and United can be allocated they are willing to fly.
To this end, UA proposes to commence a 2nd daily EWR-PVG service on or about June 1, 2020, using B777-200 aircraft. As noted by Delta carriers need long lead time to begin work now on the process to attain appropriate slots in China in preparation of new launches.
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deltal1011man
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:12 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
First objection is in --

Delta says while commercial conditions can fluctuate and require airlines to make schedule revisions, the scarcity of available China zone-1 frequencies is such that they should not be left unused particularly if other carriers seek to operate services using them. While DL has applied to add MSP-PVG using 7 other available weekly Zone-1 frequencies, should another carrier also apply for those, or these14 AA frequencies, then the DOT should conduct a full route proceeding to maximize public benefit.
Only in the event that no other US carriers desire additional frequencies then the DOT may consider a short-term dormancy waiver grant for AA.


I would clarify that this is a contingent objection. Specifically, DL says it does NOT object to the requested relief by AA if its MSP-PVG request is granted. This also tells us DL isn't requesting other China frequencies.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... 19077-0424

but it was a hint that Delta expected United to apply for something, which has obviously happened.
 
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janders
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:16 pm

Lets see how DOT acts.
Will they let AA skate and make DL and UA fight it out for the 7 weekly frequencies, or will they strip the 14 from AA and make both DL and UA happy?
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:19 pm

Proposed United schedule pending slot awards

UA109 EWR-PVG 1545-1840 777
UA108 PVG-EWR 1010-1245 777
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carljanderson
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:26 pm

Does DL now re-apply for LAX-PEK in addition to their MSP-PVG?
 
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UPlog
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:56 pm

EWR-PVG must really be strong to support double daily. SFO-PVG is already double daily.

Find its interesting United has completely avoided connecting IAH with China. No PEK, PVG or HKG. Also no PVG link at IAD.
 
jfk777
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:00 am

AA may come to regret not keeping the frequencies from ORD to PEK & PVG. If they can't make Chicago to China work then have additional flights from DFW or LAX to Peking and Shanghai. AA needs to keep the frequencies because they are already third among the US3 to Asia even as Delta has dismantles the Northwest system. The chances of getting PRC flights back could be difficult and next to impossible. Doug Parker needs o understand AA is not Usairways.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:57 am

Strange sequence. So DL's application DID have something to do with AA. And were they just trying to force UA's hand?

As for why EWR, I am a bit surprised to see that NYC-PVG is only three daily flights at the moment. With the relative lack of PVG flights to the East Coast, there could be room for 2 daily.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:22 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Strange sequence. So DL's application DID have something to do with AA.


DL did not care much about AA so long as they could use the vacated China zone-1 frequencies from Hawaiian and Guam that had already been returned to the DOT.

DL couched its response to the DOT that they sought the DOT to deny AA the dormancy and carry out a full route case should the industry demand for Zone-1 frequencies exceed the 7 former Hawaiian and Guam ones which them would put the AA ones into consideration.
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c933103
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:45 am

LAXintl wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Strange sequence. So DL's application DID have something to do with AA.


DL did not care much about AA so long as they could use the vacated China zone-1 frequencies from Hawaiian and Guam that had already been returned to the DOT.

DL couched its response to the DOT that they sought the DOT to deny AA the dormancy and carry out a full route case should the industry demand for Zone-1 frequencies exceed the 7 former Hawaiian and Guam ones which them would put the AA ones into consideration.

They could have used those frequencies to try Saipan where Chinese people do have visa free treatment but nope.
Last week when Typhoon Yutu hit Saipan, there were about 1600 Chinese tourists stranded on the island, that's even more than amount of Korean which there was about a thousand of them on the island. Yet there are zero nonstop flight with only some charters between mainland China and Saipan, compared to 3.5 daily scheduled flights from Korea to Saipan.
 
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UPlog
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:59 pm

What are the chances AA decides to do a 180 and keep the ORD-Asia flying even with the huge losses?
 
flyguy84
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:20 pm

UPlog wrote:
What are the chances AA decides to do a 180 and keep the ORD-Asia flying even with the huge losses?

Zero
SFO
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:12 pm

Considering how negatively AA has described the routes financial performance I dont see them doing a 180.

Though I do believe AA still has a decent chance of getting the DOT to give them the dormancy waiver till November 2019.
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:45 pm

Now Hawaiian Air has gotten in the game arguing they do not object to DL and UA both being offered China frequencies but do object to their request not to commence routes until late 2019 or 2020.

HA believes DOT should follow standard process and require carries the standard 90 day start up period, and if DL and UA cannot accomplish this they request appropriate start up delay waivers.

Otherwise HA believes DL and UA would be no different that AA trying to warehouse route authorities to China.
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jayunited
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:13 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Now Hawaiian Air has gotten in the game arguing they do not object to DL and UA both being offered China frequencies but do object to their request not to commence routes until late 2019 or 2020.

HA believes DOT should follow standard process and require carries the standard 90 day start up period, and if DL and UA cannot accomplish this they request appropriate start up delay waivers.

Otherwise HA believes DL and UA would be no different that AA trying to warehouse route authorities to China.



Is HA interested in adding additional frequencies to China?
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: AA drops ORD-PEK

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:20 pm

psa1011 wrote:
EarlyLateORD wrote:
AA has tried, and tried and tried to make money in Asia outside of Japan and the yields just aren't there. Meanwhile they are printing money on their flights to Argentina/Chile...

Adam


Any idea why AA hasn't tried ORD-EZE/GRU?


They probably prefer to route traffic via MIA and JFK.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:30 pm

jayunited wrote:
Is HA interested in adding additional frequencies to China?


No but HA is free to comment about the regulatory process.
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jfk777
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Re: AA drops ORD-PEK

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:45 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
psa1011 wrote:
EarlyLateORD wrote:
AA has tried, and tried and tried to make money in Asia outside of Japan and the yields just aren't there. Meanwhile they are printing money on their flights to Argentina/Chile...

Adam


Any idea why AA hasn't tried ORD-EZE/GRU?


They probably prefer to route traffic via MIA and JFK.


AA tried ORD to EZE years ago with a 767, it was a dog. ORD to GRU is flown by United so its doubtful AA could operate a parallel service. AA also flies to Brazil and Argentina via DFW so many ORD passengers probably go via Texas not Miami.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:02 am

LAXintl wrote:
Now Hawaiian Air has gotten in the game arguing they do not object to DL and UA both being offered China frequencies but do object to their request not to commence routes until late 2019 or 2020.

HA believes DOT should follow standard process and require carries the standard 90 day start up period, and if DL and UA cannot accomplish this they request appropriate start up delay waivers.

Otherwise HA believes DL and UA would be no different that AA trying to warehouse route authorities to China.


Don’t the carriers need more than 90 days just to get a viable slot?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:42 am

Yes especially with China where it can take a few IATA scheduling seasons to land a suitable slot time.

However HA does (imo rightfully) point out that the DOT has a process in place and has in the past been understanding in granting required start-up delay waivers when carriers have proven that despite their best efforts they have yet been unable to acquire suitable slots for the service.
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eamondzhang
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:49 am

c933103 wrote:
They could have used those frequencies to try Saipan where Chinese people do have visa free treatment but nope.
Last week when Typhoon Yutu hit Saipan, there were about 1600 Chinese tourists stranded on the island, that's even more than amount of Korean which there was about a thousand of them on the island. Yet there are zero nonstop flight with only some charters between mainland China and Saipan, compared to 3.5 daily scheduled flights from Korea to Saipan.

Without derailing the thread, you do realise there's quite a few carriers going between SPN and China don't you? You have 3U going 2x weekly CAN and 4x weekly to PVG, MU having 3x weekly PEK, JD twice weekly to HGH and HX/UO 6x weekly to HKG. This is after the typhoon and although not a lot, there's still a fair bit flights and all of them (sans UO and HX) are on A332/3. This is comparing with GUM which has exactly zero flight to China.

Having said that, many of these flights are tied up with loca travel agencies and I don't see any of DL, UA or AA willing to chase after the travel agency low-yield traffic, even with a paid off 757.

Michael
 
c933103
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:13 am

eamondzhang wrote:
c933103 wrote:
They could have used those frequencies to try Saipan where Chinese people do have visa free treatment but nope.
Last week when Typhoon Yutu hit Saipan, there were about 1600 Chinese tourists stranded on the island, that's even more than amount of Korean which there was about a thousand of them on the island. Yet there are zero nonstop flight with only some charters between mainland China and Saipan, compared to 3.5 daily scheduled flights from Korea to Saipan.

Without derailing the thread, you do realise there's quite a few carriers going between SPN and China don't you? You have 3U going 2x weekly CAN and 4x weekly to PVG, MU having 3x weekly PEK, JD twice weekly to HGH and HX/UO 6x weekly to HKG. This is after the typhoon and although not a lot, there's still a fair bit flights and all of them (sans UO and HX) are on A332/3. This is comparing with GUM which has exactly zero flight to China.

Having said that, many of these flights are tied up with loca travel agencies and I don't see any of DL, UA or AA willing to chase after the travel agency low-yield traffic, even with a paid off 757.

Michael

If you are counting HKG then GUM have flight to that.
And I thought all those 3U/MU/JD flights are operated as scheduled charters? Although I am not too sure operationally how much different it have from regular scheduled flights for regular Chinese tourist.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:17 am

c933103 wrote:
If you are counting HKG then GUM have flight to that.
And I thought all those 3U/MU/JD flights are operated as scheduled charters? Although I am not too sure operationally how much different it have from regular scheduled flights for regular Chinese tourist.

All the aforementioned flights are scheduled flights, not scheduled charters (maybe sans JD's HGH but I'm sure about the rest). Totally forgot UA's GUM-HKG tho!

Michael
 
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:45 am

eamondzhang wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If you are counting HKG then GUM have flight to that.
And I thought all those 3U/MU/JD flights are operated as scheduled charters? Although I am not too sure operationally how much different it have from regular scheduled flights for regular Chinese tourist.

All the aforementioned flights are scheduled flights, not scheduled charters (maybe sans JD's HGH but I'm sure about the rest). Totally forgot UA's GUM-HKG tho!

Michael

I've just checked Chinese news report and confirmed all of them are charter. You cannot book SPN flight on 3U/MU/JD's homepage either.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:09 pm

c933103 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If you are counting HKG then GUM have flight to that.
And I thought all those 3U/MU/JD flights are operated as scheduled charters? Although I am not too sure operationally how much different it have from regular scheduled flights for regular Chinese tourist.

All the aforementioned flights are scheduled flights, not scheduled charters (maybe sans JD's HGH but I'm sure about the rest). Totally forgot UA's GUM-HKG tho!

Michael

I've just checked Chinese news report and confirmed all of them are charter. You cannot book SPN flight on 3U/MU/JD's homepage either.

I've just also checked JD and MU's websites and all of them are easily bookable. Granted I went to their Chinese website.

Althought can't finding any fares available on 3U's website, the application that they made back in 2015 also indicated that both PVG and CAN flights are scheduled flights not scheduled charters: http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/2 ... _2657.html (in Mandarin)

The ones for MU (http://www.caac.gov.cn/website/old/C1/2 ... 34001.html) and JD (http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/2 ... 38937.html) also didn't mention any charter anywhere within the applications (again both links are in Mandarin).

If they have reverted to charter I stand corrected. Having said that though, I again won't be surprised if the bulk of the seats are sold via agents and I would bet the US3 won't be interested in this traffic especially given they really don't have much presence themselves.

Michael
 
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janders
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:10 pm

DOT starting to get interesting :box:
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:15 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
c933103 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
All the aforementioned flights are scheduled flights, not scheduled charters (maybe sans JD's HGH but I'm sure about the rest). Totally forgot UA's GUM-HKG tho!

Michael

I've just checked Chinese news report and confirmed all of them are charter. You cannot book SPN flight on 3U/MU/JD's homepage either.

I've just also checked JD and MU's websites and all of them are easily bookable. Granted I went to their Chinese website.

Althought can't finding any fares available on 3U's website, the application that they made back in 2015 also indicated that both PVG and CAN flights are scheduled flights not scheduled charters: http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/2 ... _2657.html (in Mandarin)

The ones for MU (http://www.caac.gov.cn/website/old/C1/2 ... 34001.html) and JD (http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/2 ... 38937.html) also didn't mention any charter anywhere within the applications (again both links are in Mandarin).

If they have reverted to charter I stand corrected. Having said that though, I again won't be surprised if the bulk of the seats are sold via agents and I would bet the US3 won't be interested in this traffic especially given they really don't have much presence themselves.

Michael

huh maybe the Chinese embassy was getting wrong info http://m.ce.cn/yw/gd/201810/27/t20181027_30642644.shtml
 
eamondzhang
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:22 pm

c933103 wrote:
huh maybe the Chinese embassy was getting wrong info http://m.ce.cn/yw/gd/201810/27/t20181027_30642644.shtml

I read that charter mentioned in the article as being the charter to evacuate all stranded passengers - remember on the first couple days after the airport reopening MU, JD, HX and 3U all operated extra relief flights carrying fuel and catering for the entire journey and no revenue payload whatsoever on the leg to SPN. And that's why the charter flights need Saipan authority's approval before they could operate - one normally don't need another clearance (should have held the authorisation already) for normal scheduled flights.

Michael
 
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:31 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
c933103 wrote:
huh maybe the Chinese embassy was getting wrong info http://m.ce.cn/yw/gd/201810/27/t20181027_30642644.shtml

I read that charter mentioned in the article as being the charter to evacuate all stranded passengers - remember on the first couple days after the airport reopening MU, JD, HX and 3U all operated extra relief flights carrying fuel and catering for the entire journey and no revenue payload whatsoever on the leg to SPN. And that's why the charter flights need Saipan authority's approval before they could operate - one normally don't need another clearance (should have held the authorisation already) for normal scheduled flights.

Michael

There are also statements that say they will also carry Chinese citizens who weren't taking those companies' charters when they flown into Saipan. It's rather strange if those regular flights weren't charter
And if they are, then that mean Chinese airlines could have stopped the PVG/PEK flights for other flights to CONUS?
 
eamondzhang
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:25 pm

c933103 wrote:
There are also statements that say they will also carry Chinese citizens who weren't taking those companies' charters when they flown into Saipan. It's rather strange if those regular flights weren't charter
And if they are, then that mean Chinese airlines could have stopped the PVG/PEK flights for other flights to CONUS?

Yes and this is what always happens in the relief flights..... At least for Chinese carriers.

Theoretically they could, but I would say the only way with a remote chance of moving SPN to CONUS is MU. 3U can and will always utilise second/third-tier airports and JD, well, they don't even fly to CONUS yet!

Michael
 
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LAXintl
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:54 pm

AA updated their dormancy request - instead of October 2019, they now seek dormancy till June 28, 2019.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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janders
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Re: UPDATED: AA drops ORD-PEK/PVG, reduces NRT

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:13 am

Sounds like DL and UA forced AA's hand and now they will be back with the flights for Summer 2019. Wonder how much money it will bleed.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle

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