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Armodeen
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Fri May 04, 2018 7:50 pm

I appreciate that VS are purchasing these aircraft for peanuts and that it seems likely that they will simply change the retirement order and return the leased A346s first. But, what if VS are considering buying the A346s at the end of their leases and eventually re-configuring them and retiring the 744 instead? It makes sense all around tbh, the A346 might not compete well with the 77W but it sure beats the heck out of the 744. It also slims VS down to A330/340 and 787 instead of the 3 types ratings, and they end up with paid off young frames.

I know that yanking this one back from the scrapper doesn't exactly scream 'long term plan', but perhaps we will see a change in strategy going forward?

edit. I totally forgot somehow that VS ordered the A35K, so ignore my ramblings :lol:
 
Planesmart
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Fri May 04, 2018 9:32 pm

Armodeen wrote:
I appreciate that VS are purchasing these aircraft for peanuts and that it seems likely that they will simply change the retirement order and return the leased A346s first. But, what if VS are considering buying the A346s at the end of their leases and eventually re-configuring them and retiring the 744 instead? It makes sense all around tbh, the A346 might not compete well with the 77W but it sure beats the heck out of the 744. It also slims VS down to A330/340 and 787 instead of the 3 types ratings, and they end up with paid off young frames.

I know that yanking this one back from the scrapper doesn't exactly scream 'long term plan', but perhaps we will see a change in strategy going forward?

edit. I totally forgot somehow that VS ordered the A35K, so ignore my ramblings :lol:

A good strategy, especially as RR are offering special Trent 500 PBTH terms for airlines affected by 787 engine issues.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Fri May 04, 2018 10:23 pm

Virgin seems jinxed.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Fri May 04, 2018 10:34 pm

Planesmart wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
I appreciate that VS are purchasing these aircraft for peanuts and that it seems likely that they will simply change the retirement order and return the leased A346s first. But, what if VS are considering buying the A346s at the end of their leases and eventually re-configuring them and retiring the 744 instead? It makes sense all around tbh, the A346 might not compete well with the 77W but it sure beats the heck out of the 744. It also slims VS down to A330/340 and 787 instead of the 3 types ratings, and they end up with paid off young frames.

I know that yanking this one back from the scrapper doesn't exactly scream 'long term plan', but perhaps we will see a change in strategy going forward?

edit. I totally forgot somehow that VS ordered the A35K, so ignore my ramblings :lol:

A good strategy, especially as RR are offering special Trent 500 PBTH terms for airlines affected by 787 engine issues.


The strategy of retiring 744s and replacing with A346 only has merit if RR offers exceptional PBTH terms. While the A346 should have replaced many 747s, the operating costs were too far above promise to be competitive.

The RR 787 issues are a major problem. As exciting as it might be to see airframes given an 11th hour reprieve, there time back in service will be limited.

There is no way an A346 economically competes with the A350-1000 or 779. The same is true of a passenger 747, even the 748I. Cest la vie.

Eventually all the rushed charters to allow 787s ti be parked won't be needed. Then the A340 will fly off into the sunset.

Lightsaber
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Channex757
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 12:05 am

Some of the story is like this....

VS can buy these planes at scrap value then put them through a check, result being an A346 with a fresh check at salvage prices. It's cheaper than extending a lease on an existing aircraft and paying for that to also be checked plus lease payments.

So the trip to TUP is arranged by the lessor. VS then buys it for cash at a song. The plane then heads off to MNL for a bath and tune-up. At the same time another A346 will probably be retired (this happened recently). By overlapping these actions it also creates extra capacity for the 789 issues.
 
zkncj
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 12:37 am

lightsaber wrote:
The RR 787 issues are a major problem. As exciting as it might be to see airframes given an 11th hour reprieve, there time back in service will be limited.


And it might not be just VS that all these re-activated 346s end up operating for, there is now an huge temporary aircraft demand to cover the issues. If VS has an surplus of 346 trained crew, there is always an chance that some that have been parked will be wet-leased out to other airlines desperate for temporary widebodies.

NZ is expecting to have 2-3 789s out of service for the rest of 2018 and they only have an small fleet of 12 789s, so there will be others with larger fleets that will be much more effected.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 3:01 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
Even though it has nothing to do with the 787’s reliablility... RR can’t sedm to get their act together.
And the A346s uses Trents...and it may be more reliable engine than the 1000 but still not an easy Trent to maintain either (as compared to 700/800)

They would had been better off with the Americans with the GENx engines than blind European loyalty to Rolls.

How wrong can it be....

The T500 was certified in 1999, and it flew airline service on the A346 in 2002. That is ten years before the GEnx was certified.

And BTW, the T500 is little more than a derated T700 with LPT inherited from the cancelled T600, which was offered for the also cancelled 747-500/-600. And that LPT being a slightly scaled down T800 turbine.

The only thing GE could have offered for the A346 would have been some CF6 variant.

The T500 is nothing out of the ordinary. It was made - like everything else at that time - from components already on the shelf, from 70'es/80'es technology. Throughout the 90'es airlines were screaming "cheaper engines", so R&D was near zero at all engine OEMs. Then came the fuel price spike, and the next morning they were all screaming "lower fuel burn engines". And consequently a decade late we got a technology jump with GEnx, T1000 and PW GTF. With GEnx icing problems, now overcome, T1000 turbine durability problems still ongoing, and GTF, well it has already filled many threads, while southern France is filling up with A320 gliders.
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Zidane
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 4:24 am

Armodeen wrote:
I appreciate that VS are purchasing these aircraft for peanuts and that it seems likely that they will simply change the retirement order and return the leased A346s first. But, what if VS are considering buying the A346s at the end of their leases and eventually re-configuring them and retiring the 744 instead? It makes sense all around tbh, the A346 might not compete well with the 77W but it sure beats the heck out of the 744. It also slims VS down to A330/340 and 787 instead of the 3 types ratings, and they end up with paid off young frames.

I know that yanking this one back from the scrapper doesn't exactly scream 'long term plan', but perhaps we will see a change in strategy going forward?

edit. I totally forgot somehow that VS ordered the A35K, so ignore my ramblings :lol:

Even though that were to happen, they would probably run into some issues. Some missions can't be done with the A346s in contrast to the B744s, ie: Caribbean missions. It's one of the reasons why you won't see them at Gatwick.
 
amadorE175
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 4:57 am

Zidane wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
I appreciate that VS are purchasing these aircraft for peanuts and that it seems likely that they will simply change the retirement order and return the leased A346s first. But, what if VS are considering buying the A346s at the end of their leases and eventually re-configuring them and retiring the 744 instead? It makes sense all around tbh, the A346 might not compete well with the 77W but it sure beats the heck out of the 744. It also slims VS down to A330/340 and 787 instead of the 3 types ratings, and they end up with paid off young frames.

I know that yanking this one back from the scrapper doesn't exactly scream 'long term plan', but perhaps we will see a change in strategy going forward?

edit. I totally forgot somehow that VS ordered the A35K, so ignore my ramblings :lol:

Even though that were to happen, they would probably run into some issues. Some missions can't be done with the A346s in contrast to the B744s, ie: Caribbean missions. It's one of the reasons why you won't see them at Gatwick.


is it a runway performance deficiency? Some other issue?
 
Qantas744er
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 5:30 am

amadorE175 wrote:
Zidane wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
I appreciate that VS are purchasing these aircraft for peanuts and that it seems likely that they will simply change the retirement order and return the leased A346s first. But, what if VS are considering buying the A346s at the end of their leases and eventually re-configuring them and retiring the 744 instead? It makes sense all around tbh, the A346 might not compete well with the 77W but it sure beats the heck out of the 744. It also slims VS down to A330/340 and 787 instead of the 3 types ratings, and they end up with paid off young frames.

I know that yanking this one back from the scrapper doesn't exactly scream 'long term plan', but perhaps we will see a change in strategy going forward?

edit. I totally forgot somehow that VS ordered the A35K, so ignore my ramblings :lol:

Even though that were to happen, they would probably run into some issues. Some missions can't be done with the A346s in contrast to the B744s, ie: Caribbean missions. It's one of the reasons why you won't see them at Gatwick.


is it a runway performance deficiency? Some other issue?


Taxiway/runway width. Due to the footprint of the landing gear. The -346 needs ~55m for a 180 degree turn on the runway, as is necessary at some of the Caribbean airports. A 45m wide runway necessitating a 180 degree lineup for departure or for backtrack after landing, won’t cut it.
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questions
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 7:17 am

What kind of shape is the cabin of this 346 in? What kind of work does VS have to do to make the cabin passenger ready?
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 4:47 pm

questions wrote:
What kind of shape is the cabin of this 346 in? What kind of work does VS have to do to make the cabin passenger ready?

Hard to say, I would have thought they would have taken some or all or the seating out for spares unless the scrapping deal was "as is". Gonna have to make sure the air con and toilets all work, check the galleys, has only been a month so not to many problems I would have thought.
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3AWM
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 5:07 pm

Virgin is currently leasing the rest of their A340s which means they are paying a big chunk of the original purchase price and the finance on that. Swapping out a leased one for a paid for one is a massive saving in itself.

Buying at scrap value, I can't see them depreciating much beyond that. Aside from the cost of capital to buy it's virtually a free aeroplane.

If they don't need it they can just cash in for scrap money again. They could take more on this basis, particularly before the A350s start to arrive. By letting them go to scrap first they are just demonstrating the value to lessors.
 
TC957
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 6:02 pm

G-VWIN appears to have flown to SFO from TUP according to FR24.
 
Flighty
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 6:13 pm

3AWM wrote:
Virgin is currently leasing the rest of their A340s which means they are paying a big chunk of the original purchase price and the finance on that. Swapping out a leased one for a paid for one is a massive saving in itself.

Buying at scrap value, I can't see them depreciating much beyond that. Aside from the cost of capital to buy it's virtually a free aeroplane.

If they don't need it they can just cash in for scrap money again. They could take more on this basis, particularly before the A350s start to arrive. By letting them go to scrap first they are just demonstrating the value to lessors.



I like this theory! It actually makes a very wasteful trip worthwhile. Millions of dollars in residual may have been written down by the lessor thanks to this trip’and sitting in Tupelo. I know US Airways did the same with their 767-200s. They became fully depreciated and then served a really long time thanks to that. The perils of being an aircraft lessor. Thanks for that analysis.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 6:37 pm

Checked out TUP on Google Earth real quick and they have quite the collection there actually. Several 747s including what looks like ANA's old Pokemon jet, and some 757s and 737 classics among others.
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cruiseshipcrew
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 7:02 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
Checked out TUP on Google Earth real quick and they have quite the collection there actually. Several 747s including what looks like ANA's old Pokemon jet, and some 757s and 737 classics among others.


They have about three 747s from United currently but basically everything you see in that Google Earth image has long gone been scrapped. That was in their prime time when they were very active.
 
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Kickert
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 9:20 pm

zkojq wrote:
Kickert wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What would be the point?

They're not going to be converted into freighters, and who's buying used A340s?

The King of Swaziland. His was just delivered officially last month for his 50th birthday.

That was a gift from the Republic Of China (ex China Airlines aircraft), no? Swaziland is one of the few nations that recognises the Republic Of China rather than the PRC.

The details are...murky. Taiwan gave millions to the party, but apparently the plane itself was purchased, although the details are not public. It did go through parliament a couple years ago. I have seen pics of the inside and it is ridiculous!
 
Planesmart
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 9:43 pm

3AWM wrote:
By letting them go to scrap first they are just demonstrating the value to lessors.

Main reason for switching ownership, delivery to new owner, and allowing agreed time to elapse, is to create legal separation between the lease, leasor, former leasee, and final new owner (who was the former leasee), removing (minimising) any risks of tax clawback in respect to the original lease.

You can do the paperwork, fly over airspace, or previously, perform a touch and go, formalising change of ownership of a new aircraft, without risk, but at end of lease, more care is required if the old leasee is going to become the new owner.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Sat May 05, 2018 9:46 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
ltbewr wrote:
With the 787 engine issues, the peak summer demand ramping up, have qualified pilots for the A340 series, already set up for their airline along with a likely a cheap lease price, why not VS pulling them from the brink of death and put them back into service.

Why not is the wrong perspective.

Clearly VS would rather be flying 787s and clearly RR wishes they weren't having to pay for VS to get this aircraft back into flying condition.

Both are making the best out of a bad situation.

Meanwhile, Boeing got paid upon delivery for the 787 so they're just an interested observer.

NYPECO wrote:
luv2cattlecall wrote:
What's so special about TUP that they sent it there for scrapping instead of the desert?


I'm wondering too, anyone know the answer to this?

The scrapper in TUP paid more than anyone else.
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flflyer
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:03 pm

any guess on how long the 346 will be around?
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:30 pm

The Trent 500 is almost totally unique, not cheap to maintain, and the reason why you don't see more A340NG frames with second-tier operators. With both maintenance and fuel costs taken into account, any job that can be done by an A340NG can probably be done more cheaply by an A330-300, or even a newer-build A340-300 if long range is required.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:31 pm

There is a huge difference between automotive and aircraft parts. Anyone can make and sell automotive parts legally by reverse engineering them. Aircraft parts must be certified, and for the most part that means that only the original manufacturer can make them. There are a few GA aftermarket manufacturers, but nothing like for autos. I suspect there are none for airliners.
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Aesma
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:27 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Hard to beat a dependable Airbus Quad when it comes for filling in for unreliable 787s.

It sure does.


Even though it has nothing to do with the 787’s reliablility... RR can’t sedm to get their act together.

And the A346s uses Trents...and it may be more reliable engine than the 1000 but still not an easy Trent to maintain either (as compared to 700/800)

They would had been better off with the Americans with the GENx engines than blind European loyalty to Rolls.


It's GE and Boeing that are in love with each other. Airbus tried to have engines from at least two manufacturers, also for the A350 for that matter, but GE had nothing on offer. The GENx wouldn't run until 5 years after the A346 first flight, and took several years more to be operational.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LH658
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:51 pm

What if there was a A346 freighter...
 
questions
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:04 pm

For an air craft that “flew to the scrappers last month” what is the work VS needs to do to bring this aircraft back into commercial service?
 
TC957
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:04 pm

questions wrote:
For an air craft that “flew to the scrappers last month” what is the work VS needs to do to bring this aircraft back into commercial service?

It flew to the Manila maintenance base for attention for a few days before returning to VS. Plus I would guess they need to re-install the cabin when it got back to the UK before entering service again.
 
chrisjake
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:18 pm

G-VWIN was just in Cleveland last week. Came here to take the LA Chargers to London for their game this past weekend. Saw her sitting on the ramp waiting to head back, never realized she came that close to the end.
 
B764er
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:54 am

the A340-600 is an Airbus plane I love.

Glad to see it come back. Too bad it was going to end up as beer cans.
 
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:10 am

Polot wrote:
NYPECO wrote:
luv2cattlecall wrote:
What's so special about TUP that they sent it there for scrapping instead of the desert?


I'm wondering too, anyone know the answer to this?

Nothing is special. The scrapper (and buyer of the aircraft) is in TUP. That is all. Not all scrapping is done in the desert, those are just the most famous because of their size due to the amount of long term storage that also occurs there. There is plenty of pics of the TUP boneyard on the internet, just google image search the airport.


To elaborate on that, TUP is just that--home to a scrapping operation. The planes don't go to the desert because there's no intention of preserving them. You don't need to worry quite so much about corrosion and whatnot when there's no intention of ever putting the airplane into service again.

Good to see this bird get a little more time in the sky. Seeing the VS A346 as a sub on LHR-SEA a few times in the last year was a nice addition to the international lineup for a few weeks.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:17 am

B764er wrote:
the A340-600 is an Airbus plane I love.

Glad to see it come back. Too bad it was going to end up as beer cans.

I love the A346. In China Eastern's old livery (which is better than the new one) it was like it was a mile long.
I think SA's the nicest A346 I have seen, followed by VS and LH.
 
LH982
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:38 am

Flighty wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't understand the policy of spare parts.
I actually drive a 19 years old car and still find brand new OEM spare parts.
And there are no OEM spare parts for a 19 years old airplane, that some of the planes needs to be parted out for used spare parts?
Not talking about rare birds like A342 or -5s but for the more "successful" A343 or even for the still-in-production A330family.
Thanks in advance for all kind answers.


IMHO, it's basically economics. Any spare part can be ordered and purchased, it really depends on the price and delivery time.
Some items are quite abundant, and second-hand versions compete with first-market parts, and it's about price only.
Some items have longer lead time from the original manufacturer, and second-hand items have some advantage of being readily available.
and so on, and so forth.

Don't forget -- as these are airplane spare parts, they are subject to stringent certification standards, and paper trail has to be thorough. A highly competent machine workshop can have access to proper alloys and other feedstocks, can have original manufacturers drawings, etc. -- and still, whatever they manufacture, will be called "counterfit aircraft part" until a relevant aviation authority says otherwise.

In extreme cases, a part is out of production, and the original equipment to make this part does not exist anymore, or was repurposed, or is otherwise unavailable. In situations like this, it's either harvesting from scrapped airframes, or refurbishing of retired parts (if legal); or a major investment into re-establishing the supply chain.


The economics for parts storage must be different for airliners than it is for cars. For cars, it is not difficult to keep 5,000 of each part on hand after finishing production in order to furnish a profitable parts business. Obviously to re-start a supply chain is a huge expense, and frankly, it is a sign that the parts business totally failed to predict customer needs. It must be possible to forecast the rate parts will be needed. A parts supply can last 40 years.

Of course, car parts are small and easy to store. But I am still puzzled why this is a more common problem for aircraft. They should be good at this.


Car parts forecasting is no nirvana. Car companies always under estimate and then push suppliers for repeated last time builds. It's a particular problem with bespoke electronics. 3d printers have helped immensely in other areas
Last edited by LH982 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TC957
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:40 am

Coming back to the topic question here, I too would like to understand the process of bringing G-VWIN back from her death bed at TUP. Few airframes make it out of there alive.
 
brindabella
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:44 am

Bricktop wrote:
B764er wrote:
the A340-600 is an Airbus plane I love.

Glad to see it come back. Too bad it was going to end up as beer cans.

I love the A346. In China Eastern's old livery (which is better than the new one) it was like it was a mile long.
I think SA's the nicest A346 I have seen, followed by VS and LH.


Whatever the grim operational realities which led to it's early demise, it's a great looking plane, still.

Standing with a friend when an SAA bird flew over on approach to Perth WA, I was delighted with her question:

"Is that plane very low?". :shock:

"No, it's just a really big plane!". :D :D

cheers
Billy
 
OMAAbound
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:44 am

Funnily enough, G-VNAP was resurrected from the knackers yard to cover the End Of lease for G-VWIN.

Now, G-VWIN has been brought back to cover the end of lease of another A340.

Another $20 million dollar scrap yard bargain!

OMAA
 
crownvic
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:02 pm

It is a beautiful sight the A340-600. Almost 8 feet longer then the A380..
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:09 pm

I know this is slightly off topic, but I noticed the A340 was never picked up by an US air carrier. I wonder why.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
wave46
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:02 am

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:16 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
I know this is slightly off topic, but I noticed the A340 was never picked up by an US air carrier. I wonder why.


When the A340 was in full swing (the 1990s and 2000s), the US carriers were in various states in financial distress. The approval of ETOPS for their 767s and their legacy fleets of 747s & DC-10/MD-11s provided most of the requirements they needed for long-haul.

Fuel was cheap in the mid-to-late 1990s as well, so running an older, but paid for aircraft was economical at the time.
 
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Wildlander
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:28 pm

The financial distress of Northwest saw the cancellation of their firm A340-300 order - an action sanctioned/supported by Airbus to save the remaining A330 and A320 deals. Continental used Ch.11 as an excuse to cancel their Airbus LR deal. United chose the 767X (the 777-200) over a PW powered A340 offering. The rest is history.
 
FatCat
Posts: 1038
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:48 pm

wave46 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
I know this is slightly off topic, but I noticed the A340 was never picked up by an US air carrier. I wonder why.


When the A340 was in full swing (the 1990s and 2000s), the US carriers were in various states in financial distress. The approval of ETOPS for their 767s and their legacy fleets of 747s & DC-10/MD-11s provided most of the requirements they needed for long-haul.

Fuel was cheap in the mid-to-late 1990s as well, so running an older, but paid for aircraft was economical at the time.

And it isn't now?
I mean - the A340-500s and -600s are paid now, and they're young birds, by age and by cycles.
Really the maintenance on the Trent 500 is so hugely expensive, making those planes no longer economically worth flying?
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
wave46
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:02 am

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:09 pm

FatCat wrote:
wave46 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
I know this is slightly off topic, but I noticed the A340 was never picked up by an US air carrier. I wonder why.


When the A340 was in full swing (the 1990s and 2000s), the US carriers were in various states in financial distress. The approval of ETOPS for their 767s and their legacy fleets of 747s & DC-10/MD-11s provided most of the requirements they needed for long-haul.

Fuel was cheap in the mid-to-late 1990s as well, so running an older, but paid for aircraft was economical at the time.

And it isn't now?
I mean - the A340-500s and -600s are paid now, and they're young birds, by age and by cycles.
Really the maintenance on the Trent 500 is so hugely expensive, making those planes no longer economically worth flying?


In 1998, a barrel of oil was going for ~$12 USD/bbl (~$18 USD inflation adjusted). Today, oil sits around ~$70/USD. As half the cost of a long-haul flight is fuel alone, a relatively inefficient type adds a lot of cost. Maintenance cost is higher with 4-engined models too. The final nail in the coffin is that the economies of scale for servicing are fading as the type is retired - niche aircraft are notoriously expensive.

A lot of those old planes were retired in the early 2000s when oil spiked.
 
tipsyinmadras
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:58 pm

Flew on G-VWIN as VS2 EWR-LHR a week and a half ago.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:02 pm

OMAAbound wrote:
Funnily enough, G-VNAP was resurrected from the knackers yard to cover the End Of lease for G-VWIN.

Now, G-VWIN has been brought back to cover the end of lease of another A340.

Another $20 million dollar scrap yard bargain!

OMAA

I too would like to know more.

I know how to maintain an aircraft most economically. I know maintenance is differed going to the breakers. But how to restart support contracts is outside my experience. I'm sure RR has to be generous considering these airframes are getting a stay of execution due to The 1000 issues.

I'm guessing prior chopped A346s are donors for missing parts.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1527
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:47 pm

Given directly and indirectly Airbus is the largest single owner of A346's, and by default, RR of said engines, scavenging parts and having them operate to end of life, is likely good economics.

As others have said, there is a whole suite of innovative RR compensation for 787's, including for those providing lift to affected airlines.
 
TC957
Posts: 3844
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:13 pm

OMAAbound wrote:
Funnily enough, G-VNAP was resurrected from the knackers yard to cover the End Of lease for G-VWIN.

Now, G-VWIN has been brought back to cover the end of lease of another A340.

Another $20 million dollar scrap yard bargain!

OMAA

Don't think VNAP was ever sent to the scrappers, it was at LDE storage for, well, napping...
 
Cunard
Posts: 2510
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:15 pm

Indeed VNAP was previously in storage at LDE and not at the ''knackers yard'' as quoted by OMAA.

For someone who has mentioned in the past that he is employed by VS it amazes me how incorrect he often is on his posts regarding the company he supposedly works for!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Peterwk146
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:22 am

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:43 pm

FatCat wrote:
wave46 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
I know this is slightly off topic, but I noticed the A340 was never picked up by an US air carrier. I wonder why.


When the A340 was in full swing (the 1990s and 2000s), the US carriers were in various states in financial distress. The approval of ETOPS for their 767s and their legacy fleets of 747s & DC-10/MD-11s provided most of the requirements they needed for long-haul.

Fuel was cheap in the mid-to-late 1990s as well, so running an older, but paid for aircraft was economical at the time.

And it isn't now?
I mean - the A340-500s and -600s are paid now, and they're young birds, by age and by cycles.
Really the maintenance on the Trent 500 is so hugely expensive, making those planes no longer economically worth flying?

May I ask what source you have to make the assertion "the maintenance on the Trent 500 is so hugely expensive"?
 
cruiseshipcrew
Topic Author
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:30 pm

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:43 am

TC957 wrote:
Coming back to the topic question here, I too would like to understand the process of bringing G-VWIN back from her death bed at TUP. Few airframes make it out of there alive.


Very little was done to VWIN before they pulled her to return to service. They had a few former United 747s that had a higher priority at the time. Any parts that were removed were tagged and stored, so putting them back in was quite simple. The airplane arrived with a 100% intact cabin which certainly helped the quick turn around.
 
FatCat
Posts: 1038
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:00 am

Peterwk146 wrote:
FatCat wrote:
wave46 wrote:

When the A340 was in full swing (the 1990s and 2000s), the US carriers were in various states in financial distress. The approval of ETOPS for their 767s and their legacy fleets of 747s & DC-10/MD-11s provided most of the requirements they needed for long-haul.

Fuel was cheap in the mid-to-late 1990s as well, so running an older, but paid for aircraft was economical at the time.

And it isn't now?
I mean - the A340-500s and -600s are paid now, and they're young birds, by age and by cycles.
Really the maintenance on the Trent 500 is so hugely expensive, making those planes no longer economically worth flying?

May I ask what source you have to make the assertion "the maintenance on the Trent 500 is so hugely expensive"?

If you read carefully, you may see a question mark at the end of the sentence, transforming a sentence, in a question.
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Virgin A340-600 (G-VWIN) flew to the scrappers last month but Virgin has bought it back!

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:12 pm

cruiseshipcrew wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Coming back to the topic question here, I too would like to understand the process of bringing G-VWIN back from her death bed at TUP. Few airframes make it out of there alive.


Very little was done to VWIN before they pulled her to return to service. They had a few former United 747s that had a higher priority at the time. Any parts that were removed were tagged and stored, so putting them back in was quite simple. The airplane arrived with a 100% intact cabin which certainly helped the quick turn around.


The cabin being intact is interesting. I'd have thought VS would have taken the seats out before sending the aircraft to TUP, unless the plan was to take the seats out and return them to VS or they weren't keeping the seats at all?

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