factsonly
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AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 7:00 am

Air France results impacted by the on-going labour strike and a competitive domestic market, while KLM improved its profitability benefitting from robust demand.

First quarter 2018:
Operating result 2018 Change

- Air France Group € -178m loss, change Euro -121m
Operating margin (%) -5.0% change -3.4 pt

- KLM Group €m 60 profit, change Euro +32m
Operating margin (%) +2.5% change +1.3pt

First Quarter 2018 operating income was down by -121 million euros at Air France due to strike and competitive pressure in the domestic market.
KLM operating income improved by 32 million euros benefitting from a robust demand environment.

http://www.airfranceklm.com/en/news/fir ... 18-results
 
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Dutchy
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 7:02 am

I see why the pilots of Air France deserve their giant pay raise. Continue to strike, you deserve it with these kinds of results....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bgm
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 7:17 am

Another quarter, another KL profit and AF loss... too bad KLM can't break free, they seem to be running a good operation but are being dragged down by AF.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
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MrBren
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 8:01 am

AF results are bad indeed. But once again, KL has been saved by AF and nobody can tell if KL could survive alone.
 
Prost
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 8:19 am

Can the AF/KL group shift profit and loss to different division to help management build their case against the unions? I ask because I’m curious when the KL contracts are up for negotiation if KL will swing to a loss, AF starts to be profitable, etc.

Is Transavia a wholly owned subsidiary of KL/AF, and if so, what was their contribution?
 
marcelh
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 8:29 am

bgm wrote:
Another quarter, another KL profit and AF loss... too bad KLM can't break free, they seem to be running a good operation but are being dragged down by AF.

KLM won't survive without AirFrance.
 
76er
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 8:39 am

Very much true 10 years ago, now I’m not so sure
 
Flanker7
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 8:54 am

marcelh wrote:
bgm wrote:
Another quarter, another KL profit and AF loss... too bad KLM can't break free, they seem to be running a good operation but are being dragged down by AF.

KLM won't survive without AirFrance.


That was once, we live in different times now.
Flying blue only if possible
 
Flanker7
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 8:55 am

marcelh wrote:
bgm wrote:
Another quarter, another KL profit and AF loss... too bad KLM can't break free, they seem to be running a good operation but are being dragged down by AF.

KLM won't survive without AirFrance.

I think its more the other way now.
Flying blue only if possible
 
KLDC10
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 9:15 am

marcelh wrote:
KLM won't survive without AirFrance.


Given that the two companies are largely un-integrated outside of the AFKL Maintenance department, it would appear that a good proportion of the benefits of their partnership are based on Codesharing and Joint Venture operations - both of which could be replicated without the two being owned by the same holding company.
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LifelinerOne
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 9:41 am

KLDC10 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
KLM won't survive without AirFrance.


Given that the two companies are largely un-integrated outside of the AFKL Maintenance department, it would appear that a good proportion of the benefits of their partnership are based on Codesharing and Joint Venture operations - both of which could be replicated without the two being owned by the same holding company.


I think you are over simplyfing the picture of integration of AF-KLM as it runs a lot deeper than just the Maintenance department. Most of the airline's procurement is centralized, as is their IT-infrastructure.

Seperating them is going to be messy and KLM alone would loose a lot of purchasing power. KLM can't survive on it's own and will need to find a new shelter.

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
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holcakker
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 10:24 am

LifelinerOne wrote:
Seperating them is going to be messy and KLM alone would loose a lot of purchasing power. KLM can't survive on it's own and will need to find a new shelter.

Are AF the shelter here? The numbers tend to say otherwise. KLM can learn invaluable lessons about strike techniques though.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 10:39 am

Prost wrote:
Can the AF/KL group shift profit and loss to different division to help management build their case against the unions? I ask because I’m curious when the KL contracts are up for negotiation if KL will swing to a loss, AF starts to be profitable, etc.

AFAIK AF-KLM management can NOT shift profit from one to the other side.
Labor contract negotiations were also going on at KLM and Transavia. Past Tuesday a agreement was reached, [KLM] [1] [2] that will be valid until until July 2019. At Transavia some short work interruptions took place during the negotiation period. There were also treats of strikes at both KLM and Transavia. But those have been avoided. Salaries go up by 4%, there is going to be a beter balance between work and time off.
The main brake point was the better balance between work and time off, because the productivity reduces. The current arrangement is a test for two years.

Prost wrote:
Is Transavia a wholly owned subsidiary of KL/AF, and if so, what was their contribution?

Transavia is actually two companies, Transavia is a daughter company of KLM, Transavia France is 60% Air France, 40% Transavia (KLM).
Joon is 100% Air France.

edit to add: I think that the negative quarter result was also caused by investments into the retirement fund of KLM and Transavia. So it's not only Air France that's to blame for the losses. But the strikes at Air France costed the group 75mln in Q1.
Last edited by CFRPwingALbody on Fri May 04, 2018 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Max Q
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 10:40 am

KLM should have accepted BA’s merger offer years ago


That would have been a far better fit, operationally, financially and culturally
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Bricktop
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 10:44 am

Admitting up front that from afar I don't know too much about the deal between AF and KL, I am interested in how "KLM won't survive without AirFrance". Based on the financial results, that doesn't seem well supported.
 
76er
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 10:45 am

Max Q wrote:
KLM should have accepted BA’s merger offer years ago


That would have been a far better fit, operationally, financially and culturally


No it wouldn’t, it would have meant the end of KLM and the AMS hub would be at nowhere near the size it is now. Plus thousands of jobs lost in The Netherlands.

Investors are clearly not happy on today’s news, AFKL stock is down 7% so far. Since january shares have tumbled a whopping 50%.
 
marcelh
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 11:03 am

holcakker wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
Seperating them is going to be messy and KLM alone would loose a lot of purchasing power. KLM can't survive on it's own and will need to find a new shelter.

Are AF the shelter here? The numbers tend to say otherwise. KLM can learn invaluable lessons about strike techniques though.


Just as all those other numbers which are commented here on A.net, a bit of framing isn't uncommon. Without the strikes - the result of needed changes in the French society (AF isn't the only company in France dealing with the political changes of Macron) - AF would have better numbers. KLM is the biggest in Euope of the small airlines, but is too small to stay afloat independently. If AirFrance isn't the right partner, Lufthansa or IAG are? I don't think so. KLM is too small to stay independent
 
LifelinerOne
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 11:10 am

Bricktop wrote:
Admitting up front that from afar I don't know too much about the deal between AF and KL, I am interested in how "KLM won't survive without AirFrance". Based on the financial results, that doesn't seem well supported.


A lot of the general costs are shared between the two companies via the holding. If KLM was to separate from that holding, they will loose this ability to share costs.
This will chip away heaviliy at their bottom line. Also the scale to purchase things is now much larger thanks to being part of a group. Normally a larger purchasing
entity is able to secure better pricing. Scaling down means that you'll need to pay more for items, which also will eat away your profit. In the end I think these two
things will make life for a single KLM difficult. Not, impossible, but not at the scale the airline is operating now.

A single KLM would need to shrink to fit its cost footprint. Scaling down means giving up market share and from there things will become interesting as strong
competitors won't sit still at the sidelines while KLM finds its footing again. A smaller KLM would also endanger the position of Schiphol, there would be way
less transfer passengers and no other airline group will step in to fill this gap as they have good hubs themselves. Therefore, a single, smaller KLM would,
in my opinion, not be a positive thing for the Dutch economy as a whole. We need to keep the nostalgia and patriotism out of the equation as that is not the good
way to look at this. If we want to retain KLM's position and Schiphol's position and with that our economy, KLM needs to be part of something bigger.

Cheers! :wave:
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 11:15 am

Sorry for being off topic; First a split-up of Air France - KLM is not at on the table. Second in my oppinion KLM should only collaborate with other SkyTeam / Delta partners. So possible candidates are Air Europa, Alitalia, Czech Airlines, TAROM and Virgin Atlantic. Stay as is with the Air France partnership is still the best option. I think Delta and Virgin Atlantic would be other positive alternatives. I don't like all other options.
Possibly the best option of all would be a joint SkyTeam Europe, that would be more equivalent in size to Delta Airlines.
Colaborating with IAG or Lufthansa would distroy the AMS hub, it's a compeating hub for OneWorld and Star Alliance.

Back on topic. Air France, Transavia and Maintenance were in red, only KLM was green.
Air France is reducing it's ground personnel. KLM is growing with flight personnel. (they reduced ground personnel a lot a couple of years back).
(corrected some typo's)
 
Bricktop
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 11:27 am

Thanks, LifelinerOne for your efforts. Seems like the standard "first week of business school" rationale then. Pure economies of scale. And of course that's all fine and dandy if the whole team is rowing in the same direction, but it seems that the larger but less profitable (actually lossmaking) side is angling to want more of the pie at the expense of the smaller and (more) profitable side. Is that sustainable, especially when nostalgia and patriotism do inevitably come into the discussion? "Why are us industrious Dutch subsidizing a bunch of lazy French?" Yeah, not very PC thinking I know, but I bet there are mutterings.
 
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zkojq
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 12:53 pm

Considering how everyone always touts KL as the shining star of the group profitability wise, their 2.5% margin is rather disappointing. Everyone always denigrates AF, so their margin doesn't come as too much of a surprise. Regardless, profitability needs to be viewed from a perspective of the whole group and it needs to be improved. If you aren't making money in good economic times, what's going to happen in the next downturn?

bgm wrote:
Another quarter, another KL profit and AF loss... too bad KLM can't break free, they seem to be running a good operation but are being dragged down by AF.


Can we please stop with this. It is well known that the AFKL tries to shift profits to KL and costs to AF due to the more favourable corporate tax rate in the Netherlands.
First to fly the 787-9
 
76er
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 1:35 pm

Utter BS, read the opening post. The first quarter is traditionally the worst of the year, and while KL’s numbers improved, AF’s numbers have gotten worse. Due to the strike, yes, but nevertheless.
 
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GCT64
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 1:42 pm

The market caps of leading European airlines tell the story ...

AFKL = €3.3BN
while ....
Ryanair = €18BN
IAG = €15.6BN
Lufthansa = €11.8BN
Easyjet = €7.4BN
Wizz Air = €4BN (Wizz Air is worth more than AFKL ... let that sink in.....)

AFKL is moving closer to Norwegian's valuation than it is to the others
Norwegian = €1.2BN
Flown in: A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..55 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
Amsterdam
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 1:44 pm

zkojq wrote:

bgm wrote:
Another quarter, another KL profit and AF loss... too bad KLM can't break free, they seem to be running a good operation but are being dragged down by AF.


Can we please stop with this. It is well known that the AFKL tries to shift profits to KL and costs to AF due to the more favourable corporate tax rate in the Netherlands.


Is this true? Where is this stated?
“It is well known” doesnt mean anything to me.

And what are these suppossed real financial figures of KLM then?
So KLM actually made a loss this first quarter?
And what about last year?
So their profit was actually less than that of AF?

Or is this “it is well knows” an internet fable?

I dont believe it
And the unions in France would in no 100 years allow that to happen so the company could picture their result worse than KLMs.
 
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tomflyBRQ
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 2:15 pm

zkojq wrote:
Can we please stop with this. It is well known that the AFKL tries to shift profits to KL and costs to AF due to the more favourable corporate tax rate in the Netherlands.


You can criticize French public sector employees for a lot of things, but never underestimate their tax collectors’ intelligence. Inter-company transfer pricing is default red flag for many tax collectors and gets a lot of attention even if everything is done by the book. Maybe tech companies who were building their structures from zero with tax optimization in mind can get away with it, but not traditional companies of AF size. Which is true for basically any West European country.
 
Jetty
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 3:28 pm

zkojq wrote:
Can we please stop with this. It is well known that the AFKL tries to shift profits to KL and costs to AF due to the more favourable corporate tax rate in the Netherlands.

Why would AF care about the corporate tax rate if they aren't making a profit anyway? If this is well known, then please name ONE reliable source.

Also you seem to forget that shifting profits to KL would come at a big prize. Any tax advantage KL has is likely offset by other factors.
- 6% of KL's shares aren't owned by AF/KL, thus shifting profits from AF to KL would mean AFKL diverts profit to these shareholders which they otherwise didn't have to.
- KL's staff share in a significant part of KL's profits. Not so much at AF.
Last edited by Jetty on Fri May 04, 2018 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Etheereal
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 3:31 pm

Yeah i should have known someone would have blamed the striking pilots here. Not surprised.
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Jetty
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 3:36 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Yeah i should have known someone would have blamed the striking pilots here. Not surprised.

Not only here, everyone blames the striking pilots. Press, staff at KL, AF/KL management, and even non-pilot unions at AF. https://twitter.com/CFDT/status/9905075 ... wsrc%5Etfw

Thus you shouldn't be surprised indeed.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 3:43 pm

marcelh wrote:
bgm wrote:
Another quarter, another KL profit and AF loss... too bad KLM can't break free, they seem to be running a good operation but are being dragged down by AF.

KLM won't survive without AirFrance.


That's a good one. Also KLM wastes so much water cleaning their planes, no responsibility at all.
 
Miquel787
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 3:45 pm

This is nothing new..These issues at Air France are ongoing for years and years.KLM is making money and Air France is throwing it out. People here in Holland are sick and tired of these ongoing strikes and other issues.KLM is dutch national pride and the majority says Don.t mess with KLM. A whole bunch of people is sharing the opinion that KLM should break loose from Air France.It.s not working..The mentality within the two companies is completely different.And frustrating. The Dutch goverment is willing to step in as a major stakeholder if things go wrong.Too many jobs a stake. But it.s very complicated to seperate the two companies.Hardly impossible..But there are way better partners for KLM in my opinion.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 3:58 pm

Jetty wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
Yeah i should have known someone would have blamed the striking pilots here. Not surprised.

Not only here, everyone blames the striking pilots. Press, staff at KL, AF/KL management, and even non-pilot unions at AF. https://twitter.com/CFDT/status/9905075 ... wsrc%5Etfw

Thus you shouldn't be surprised indeed.


AF pilots belong to the p99 percentile (that is, the top 1%) of French income earners making more than 150,000 euros per year.

https://knoema.com/WWID2017/the-world-w ... 830-france

So, there are basically "The Rich". And "The Rich" striking to snatch even MORE money for themselves does not get them any sympathy.
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 4:15 pm

Man from the sound of things it appears that AF by itself is closer to Alitalia than LX in terms of financials and operating conditions than many in France would like to admit... Oh well, that's what happens with constantly high staffing costs in an environment rife with LCCs/ME3 as competition...
 
Amsterdam
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Disregard
 
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MrBren
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 4:37 pm

Jean-Marc Janaillac has just stepped down.
 
marcelh
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 4:45 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
marcelh wrote:
bgm wrote:
Another quarter, another KL profit and AF loss... too bad KLM can't break free, they seem to be running a good operation but are being dragged down by AF.

KLM won't survive without AirFrance.


That's a good one. Also KLM wastes so much water cleaning their planes, no responsibility at all.


KLM is too small to survive as an independent airline. That's why they formed AF-KLM with AF and is the reason KLM is successful nowadays. If they hadn't merged, KLM should be a part of history, together with Swissair and Sabena.
Your rather silly statement about cleaning planes and responsibility isn't a valuable contribution to this thread.
 
petertenthije
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 4:46 pm

News is breaking now that the AF/KL chairman, Jean-March Janaillac, has resigned. He had placed the French unions a ultimatum saying he would leave if the unions did not approve the salary offer. The unions rejected the 6% salary increase offer, quelle surprise.

Dutch source:
https://nos.nl/artikel/2230381-topman-a ... endum.html
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dtw2hyd
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 4:58 pm

marcelh wrote:
...
KLM is too small to survive as an independent airline. That's why they formed AF-KLM with AF and is the reason KLM is successful nowadays. If they hadn't merged, KLM should be a part of history, together with Swissair and Sabena.
Your rather silly statement about cleaning planes and responsibility isn't a valuable contribution to this thread.


The fact is AF and CDG should have limited role in SkyTeam.

Yes, historically France had enough O&D traffic, and SkyTeam used it to make it a sixth freedom hub, but AF and CDG are not suitable for current day competitive environment. KL/AMS are better suited.

I am astonished CDG has more more non-stops to North American than AMS. Shouldn't be that way.
 
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mercure1
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 5:01 pm

Hardly appropriate to blame pilots for industrial actions at AF. There are 10 unions that represent a broad coalition of jobs from ground staff, engineers, cabin crew and pilots.

As far as Jean-Marc Janaillac he cut his own head off by putting his job on the line based on results on a company-wide referendum in which company offereda 7 percent raise over 4-year versus union demand of immediate 6 percent raise - something that is an insult and was sure to fail as it did.
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Jetty
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 5:04 pm

marcelh wrote:
KLM is too small to survive as an independent airline. That's why they formed AF-KLM with AF and is the reason KLM is successful nowadays. If they hadn't merged, KLM should be a part of history, together with Swissair and Sabena.

KLM is too small to survive fully independent. But they're big enough to survive with a strong international partnership. 49% shareholding by DL i.e. Merging with VS then also makes sense creating further synergies, with KL already being the largest foreign carrier in the UK. Don't forget that the mess at AF is a burden for KL as well. They can't add wide-bodies i.e., because of AF pilots striking if the 'balance' between AF and KL isn't restored.
 
Jetty
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 5:12 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Hardly appropriate to blame pilots for industrial actions at AF. There are 10 unions that represent a broad coalition of jobs from ground staff, engineers, cabin crew and pilots.

As far as Jean-Marc Janaillac he cut his own head off by putting his job on the line based on results on a company-wide referendum in which company offereda 7 percent raise over 4-year versus union demand of immediate 6 percent raise - something that is an insult and was sure to fail as it did.

Your number of 10 unions is hardly relevant when you don't mention the total number of unions at AF. There were also unions opposed.

So an offer is an insult when it doesn't come close to the demand? You should judge the offer on it's own merits and take into account AF hardly makes a profit in a positive environment. The demands of AF unions aren't a relevant measure, knowing the distorted view of reality those unions have.

I'm waiting for the moment AF pilots propose a merger with AZ. These people are probably the most entitled nut-jobs in the European aviation industry,
Last edited by Jetty on Fri May 04, 2018 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
KLDC10
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 5:12 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Hardly appropriate to blame pilots for industrial actions at AF. There are 10 unions that represent a broad coalition of jobs from ground staff, engineers, cabin crew and pilots.

As far as Jean-Marc Janaillac he cut his own head off by putting his job on the line based on results on a company-wide referendum in which company offereda 7 percent raise over 4-year versus union demand of immediate 6 percent raise - something that is an insult and was sure to fail as it did.


An insult? Who else gets a 7% pay rise after nearly 200 Million Euros in one quarter?
Janaillac's offer was more than they deserved, frankly. But there comes a point at which a manager feels he has to throw in the towel. Janaillac has been up against the unions since the day he took the job with pressure from shareholders and the French State too. I don't suppose it is a position that anyone here would wish to take on, or indeed be capable of taking on. There are serious, institutional problems at Air France which Janaillac has attempted to fix. He is not the problem.
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Etheereal
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 5:16 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
Yeah i should have known someone would have blamed the striking pilots here. Not surprised.

Not only here, everyone blames the striking pilots. Press, staff at KL, AF/KL management, and even non-pilot unions at AF. https://twitter.com/CFDT/status/9905075 ... wsrc%5Etfw

Thus you shouldn't be surprised indeed.


AF pilots belong to the p99 percentile (that is, the top 1%) of French income earners making more than 150,000 euros per year.

https://knoema.com/WWID2017/the-world-w ... 830-france

So, there are basically "The Rich". And "The Rich" striking to snatch even MORE money for themselves does not get them any sympathy.

Correct me if im wrong, but if someone is making 150k a year, and by union agreements and such, they were to be making 200k/year, they cant strike because 98% of the people in the world get less than 10k in their lifetime?
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 5:22 pm

7 percent over 4 years hardly seems much especially when many staff have not had raises the last 4-6 years due freezes.

Also AF is hardly broke. For FY2017 is posted record results - profit up 42%

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... up-445990/
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Brickell305
Posts: 591
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 5:23 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
marcelh wrote:
...
KLM is too small to survive as an independent airline. That's why they formed AF-KLM with AF and is the reason KLM is successful nowadays. If they hadn't merged, KLM should be a part of history, together with Swissair and Sabena.
Your rather silly statement about cleaning planes and responsibility isn't a valuable contribution to this thread.


The fact is AF and CDG should have limited role in SkyTeam.

Yes, historically France had enough O&D traffic, and SkyTeam used it to make it a sixth freedom hub, but AF and CDG are not suitable for current day competitive environment. KL/AMS are better suited.

I am astonished CDG has more more non-stops to North American than AMS. Shouldn't be that way.


How is that remotely astonishing? There's significantly more demand to CDG from North America than there is to AMS.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 591
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 5:26 pm

On another note, I find it interesting that people think the AF pilot salaries are too high for them to be asking for a raise but don't conversely believe it's wrong for managers who make significantly more to be telling them that they make too much money.
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 5:40 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
On another note, I find it interesting that people think the AF pilot salaries are too high for them to be asking for a raise but don't conversely believe it's wrong for managers who make significantly more to be telling them that they make too much money.


This would need some context. What percentage of expense does each set of people account for? I am guessing pilot wages are a huge segment of expense and management isn’t simply because there are far more pilots than managers.

And while people don’t like to hear it competent managers matter far more than any single pilot to the financial success of an airline. Within large countries you can see very different result delivered by similarly large airlines with similar safety records and labor contracts. The difference comes from how the airline is managed.
 
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Dieuwer
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 6:47 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Not only here, everyone blames the striking pilots. Press, staff at KL, AF/KL management, and even non-pilot unions at AF. https://twitter.com/CFDT/status/9905075 ... wsrc%5Etfw

Thus you shouldn't be surprised indeed.


AF pilots belong to the p99 percentile (that is, the top 1%) of French income earners making more than 150,000 euros per year.

https://knoema.com/WWID2017/the-world-w ... 830-france

So, there are basically "The Rich". And "The Rich" striking to snatch even MORE money for themselves does not get them any sympathy.

Correct me if im wrong, but if someone is making 150k a year, and by union agreements and such, they were to be making 200k/year, they cant strike because 98% of the people in the world get less than 10k in their lifetime?


They make EUR 150K+ per year.
Sure they can strike to demand even more money, but very few people would be sympathetic. I mean, will you be sympathetic if a bankster or oligarch also demanding more money themselves?
I am not talking about flight attendants, baggage handlers etc. I am sure they deserve a good raise. I am talking about the greedy pilots.
And yes, the board also could show a gesture of good faith and forgo or hand back their raise.
 
Miquel787
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:11 am

Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 7:12 pm

Unions can kill a company..see what they did in GB in the seventies.Why can KLM this week get a agreement with the pilots for a 4 % raise in payment? So the French pilots rejected a 6% raise? What the hell are they doing..Give me a break..This is completely derailed in France.What the the hell do they want? Flying jets or killing their own company..It.s getting out of control.
 
Miquel787
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:11 am

Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 7:13 pm

Unions can kill a company..see what they did in GB in the seventies.Why can KLM this week get a agreement with the pilots for a 4 % raise in payment? So the French pilots rejected a 6% raise? What the hell are they doing..Give me a break..This is completely derailed in France.What the the hell do they want? Flying jets or killing their own company..It.s getting out of control.

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