Dieuwer
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 04, 2018 7:35 pm

Perhaps AF should sell itself to the employees. That is, employees would hold 100% of the shares (minus the stake of the French State). Then the employees can decide themselves how to divide the spoils every year.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sat May 05, 2018 7:39 pm

Let's correct some things here. The AF-KLM group made a 1.4 billion euro profit last year. 900mln was from KLM and 500 was from AF. This first quarter had three days of strikes so 75mln in the red only by these strikes. KLM made a 60mln profit that's 32mln more than last year. this is a margin of 2.5%.
Air France made a loss of 178mln or a margin of -5.0%, this is 121mln higher loss then last year.
KLM with Dutch labor unions agreed to new conditions last Tuesday, i.a. a 4% raise between Jan.2018 and July 2019. This equates to 2.667% annually.
Air France offered 7% over 4 years or 1.75% annually, while results aren't very good.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sat May 05, 2018 7:43 pm

I just checked their financials on Yahoo. Not sure if they are up to date, but a Current Ratio of < 1 and a Debt-to-Equity of > 200 tells me that BANKRUPTCY is highly likely.
 
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keesje
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sat May 05, 2018 9:50 pm

KLM was a healthy flexible company before the merge, able to change, cut costs and invest. It was build on an extensive international network, a great hub inbetween big markets and the Northwest TATL Alliance. The story KLM can not survive alone was printed into everyones mind to build the required support for the AF merger. Now we can look back and evaluate if it really was a good idea.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Dieuwer
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sat May 05, 2018 10:01 pm

keesje wrote:
KLM was a healthy flexible company before the merge, able to change, cut costs and invest. It was build on an extensive international network, a great hub inbetween big markets and the Northwest TATL Alliance. The story KLM can not survive alone was printed into everyones mind to build the required support for the AF merger. Now we can look back and evaluate if it really was a good idea.


Exactly.
I just saw a phony, so-called "Airline Analyst" on TV proclaim that "KLM would never be able to survive alone". Total joke of course since plenty of smaller airlines do survive. Even those that offer TATL services like Virgin Atlantic or Norwegian.
 
DDR
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sat May 05, 2018 10:40 pm

zkojq wrote:

Can we please stop with this. It is well known that the AFKL tries to shift profits to KL and costs to AF due to the more favourable corporate tax rate in the Netherlands.


Still waiting on you to post the financial statements to prove what you said is he truth.
 
petertenthije
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 12:05 am

DDR wrote:
zkojq wrote:

Can we please stop with this. It is well known that the AFKL tries to shift profits to KL and costs to AF due to the more favourable corporate tax rate in the Netherlands.


Still waiting on you to post the financial statements to prove what you said is he truth.

It might well be true that there is some profit sharing. But even if that were through, the fact that KLM’s operations have been growing faster then AF’s operations, and in so doing even breaking the workshare agreement made with the unions, is a clear indication that the KLM operation yields better returns. Otherwise (more) investments would have gone to AF.
Attamottamotta!
 
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keesje
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 7:16 am

KLM went through some radical cost saving operations during the last years. Hurting jobs, conditions, workloads, outsourcing work that was done inhouse for almost 100 years.

Employees / unions weren't happy but in the end convinced it is for the better of the company.

Being hurt by the french approach on the other side raises big question marks.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
anstar
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 7:26 am

Dieuwer wrote:
keesje wrote:
KLM was a healthy flexible company before the merge, able to change, cut costs and invest. It was build on an extensive international network, a great hub inbetween big markets and the Northwest TATL Alliance. The story KLM can not survive alone was printed into everyones mind to build the required support for the AF merger. Now we can look back and evaluate if it really was a good idea.


Exactly.
I just saw a phony, so-called "Airline Analyst" on TV proclaim that "KLM would never be able to survive alone". Total joke of course since plenty of smaller airlines do survive. Even those that offer TATL services like Virgin Atlantic or Norwegian.


Well Virgin Atlantic is hardly independant and wouldn't be around if DL hadn't invested and implemented the JV on transatlantic routes.
 
a350lover
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 7:40 am

This might be a bit offtopic, but my impression is that the synergies between AF and KL make themselves compete themselves in some of the markets that they operate, actually for the same pax flying the same routes. When you compare this to other big airline groups i.e. IAG, this is to me the main difference here. While BA, IB, EI (even VY), have truly different focus and work on different markets from which they can all 4 benefit, KL and AF are not as differentiated. They are rather more attractive to share costs and finances, than to work on different areas of business.

IAG would probably be the most differentiated group when it comes to analyze the strategy of each of its airlines. IB has little presence in the USA (though increasing, but far far away from BA), however, it's core in South America is less worked by BA. This seems to me like a rather more "natural" way to cooperate between airlines.

Taking parts on who has more right to ask for a wage rise can be an endless discussion. Many airlines have suffered that, but also many employees. The cost of strikes is high, no doubt, but the cost of wages accounts for way less than people might think on airlines balance sheets. Up until the moment when workers strike, mainly cause this affects many more departments of the airline, plus corporation perception in the market. For a period of time, now many premium/business pax surely would consider other options, not only AF KLM for their journeys.
 
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keesje
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 7:48 am

It seem KLM RSK grew ~10% over the last. That's incredible fast growth for such a big airline.

https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=w ... D4Dk-ze25q

I can see control from the Paris HQ decreasing in this situation. Why can't Elbers become the new CEO of AFKL? Or doesn't he want to?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Amsterdam
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 9:17 am

keesje wrote:
It seem KLM RSK grew ~10% over the last. That's incredible fast growth for such a big airline.

https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=w ... D4Dk-ze25q

I can see control from the Paris HQ decreasing in this situation. Why can't Elbers become the new CEO of AFKL? Or doesn't he want to?


Lol
Funny
Of course the french unions wont accept that. He is not french, besides not speaking french.

Plus he has failed to implement the cost cutting programme up to 2020.
Because of the economic upturn and the pilots being cut big in 2015 things look good now.
 
Flanker7
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 9:21 am

keesje wrote:
It seem KLM RSK grew ~10% over the last. That's incredible fast growth for such a big airline.

https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=w ... D4Dk-ze25q

I can see control from the Paris HQ decreasing in this situation. Why can't Elbers become the new CEO of AFKL? Or doesn't he want to?


I don't think that Elbers at the helm will make a difference. It also had to do mentality and as we csn see the unions in France have a lot of power. Will they even except a Dutch CEO
Flying blue only if possible
 
NYCVIE
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 9:36 am

anstar wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
keesje wrote:
KLM was a healthy flexible company before the merge, able to change, cut costs and invest. It was build on an extensive international network, a great hub inbetween big markets and the Northwest TATL Alliance. The story KLM can not survive alone was printed into everyones mind to build the required support for the AF merger. Now we can look back and evaluate if it really was a good idea.


Exactly.
I just saw a phony, so-called "Airline Analyst" on TV proclaim that "KLM would never be able to survive alone". Total joke of course since plenty of smaller airlines do survive. Even those that offer TATL services like Virgin Atlantic or Norwegian.


Well Virgin Atlantic is hardly independant and wouldn't be around if DL hadn't invested and implemented the JV on transatlantic routes.


Yup, and Norwegian won't be around much longer in its current state also.
 
TasosANG
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 10:41 am

MrBren wrote:
AF results are bad indeed. But once again, KL has been saved by AF and nobody can tell if KL could survive alone.

That is truth. May be was no KLM anymore if back then was not the merge.
Nowadays thinks are different. Looks like the golden cow of the group is the KLM. still I believe that to be together is something good. I can’t say that this is that keep them alive, but at least make them stronger inside a very competitive environment.
What worries me the most is how they will try to solve it. I believe that the roots of the AF problems are deep down to the unions and the laws around the industry in France. So pretty difficult to solved. I hope that at least AF work to that direction and not opposite by mean to try to weak KLM in order to gain hershelf.
It is pity, that you have two strong brands, a big group, two main companies which operates from two vibrating European metropolises, from two of Europe’s busiest airports and the bigger of them is in red. Just try to imagine both gaining money, what will be then the opportunities? How far they can go? And in the end if now some people decide to leave their demands behind for a period until recovering may be later on they can win back what they want and may be more.
:P
 
Amsterdam
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 11:21 am

TasosANG wrote:
MrBren wrote:
AF results are bad indeed. But once again, KL has been saved by AF and nobody can tell if KL could survive alone.

That is truth. May be was no KLM anymore if back then was not the merge.
Nowadays thinks are different. Looks like the golden cow of the group is the KLM. still I believe that to be together is something good. I can’t say that this is that keep them alive, but at least make them stronger inside a very competitive environment.
What worries me the most is how they will try to solve it. I believe that the roots of the AF problems are deep down to the unions and the laws around the industry in France. So pretty difficult to solved. I hope that at least AF work to that direction and not opposite by mean to try to weak KLM in order to gain hershelf.
It is pity, that you have two strong brands, a big group, two main companies which operates from two vibrating European metropolises, from two of Europe’s busiest airports and the bigger of them is in red. Just try to imagine both gaining money, what will be then the opportunities? How far they can go? And in the end if now some people decide to leave their demands behind for a period until recovering may be later on they can win back what they want and may be more.


Beautiful Disney story man, but its not gonna happen. The french unions will not change any time in the coming years or decade or even decades probably.
 
TasosANG
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 11:30 am

Amsterdam wrote:
TasosANG wrote:
MrBren wrote:
AF results are bad indeed. But once again, KL has been saved by AF and nobody can tell if KL could survive alone.

That is truth. May be was no KLM anymore if back then was not the merge.
Nowadays thinks are different. Looks like the golden cow of the group is the KLM. still I believe that to be together is something good. I can’t say that this is that keep them alive, but at least make them stronger inside a very competitive environment.
What worries me the most is how they will try to solve it. I believe that the roots of the AF problems are deep down to the unions and the laws around the industry in France. So pretty difficult to solved. I hope that at least AF work to that direction and not opposite by mean to try to weak KLM in order to gain hershelf.
It is pity, that you have two strong brands, a big group, two main companies which operates from two vibrating European metropolises, from two of Europe’s busiest airports and the bigger of them is in red. Just try to imagine both gaining money, what will be then the opportunities? How far they can go? And in the end if now some people decide to leave their demands behind for a period until recovering may be later on they can win back what they want and may be more.


Beautiful Disney story man, but its not gonna happen. The french unions will not change any time in the coming years or decade or even decades probably.

I know, that is just a wish and I am pretty sure that never gonna happened. That makes me more afraid that in the end they will try solutions that they will harm KLM. And that worries me.
:P
 
Dieuwer
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 4:52 pm

anstar wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
keesje wrote:
KLM was a healthy flexible company before the merge, able to change, cut costs and invest. It was build on an extensive international network, a great hub inbetween big markets and the Northwest TATL Alliance. The story KLM can not survive alone was printed into everyones mind to build the required support for the AF merger. Now we can look back and evaluate if it really was a good idea.


Exactly.
I just saw a phony, so-called "Airline Analyst" on TV proclaim that "KLM would never be able to survive alone". Total joke of course since plenty of smaller airlines do survive. Even those that offer TATL services like Virgin Atlantic or Norwegian.


Well Virgin Atlantic is hardly independant and wouldn't be around if DL hadn't invested and implemented the JV on transatlantic routes.


I am sure DL would be interested in investing in a standalone KL and have a full JV with them.

Amsterdam wrote:
Lol
Funny
Of course the french unions wont accept that. He is not french, besides not speaking french.

Plus he has failed to implement the cost cutting programme up to 2020.
Because of the economic upturn and the pilots being cut big in 2015 things look good now.


So you basically claim french unions are racist, nationalist.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 5:16 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
anstar wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

Exactly.
I just saw a phony, so-called "Airline Analyst" on TV proclaim that "KLM would never be able to survive alone". Total joke of course since plenty of smaller airlines do survive. Even those that offer TATL services like Virgin Atlantic or Norwegian.


Well Virgin Atlantic is hardly independant and wouldn't be around if DL hadn't invested and implemented the JV on transatlantic routes.


I am sure DL would be interested in investing in a standalone KL and have a full JV with them.

Amsterdam wrote:
Lol
Funny
Of course the french unions wont accept that. He is not french, besides not speaking french.

Plus he has failed to implement the cost cutting programme up to 2020.
Because of the economic upturn and the pilots being cut big in 2015 things look good now.


So you basically claim french unions are racist, nationalist.


Haha whatever man
The french and dutch arent even different races, so what the hell are you talking about

Anyway
Nationalistic? Of course, thats not even an opinion

But many countries if not all, are nationalistic, thats why they are called nations

But hey I wouldnt mind a dutch holding ceo, and bravo to the french if they accept it
But it doenst matter who the “boss” is, they all leave without getting important things done, you cant really call them bosses anyway
This one left early, the other one left early, one of the personell bosses even got attacked and climbed over a fence with his shirt torn a year or two ago
Its a never ending story
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 6:57 pm

The profit of the group was ~1400mln in 2017. KLM contributed 900mln, AF 500mln. But AFAIK Delta and China Eastern increased their stake in AF-KLM so AF-KLM can acquire 31% of Virgin Atlantic. AFAIK if all goes well, and many things get approved, the deal closes in early 2019.
I don't know if Delta and China Eastern already contributed to the profit of AF-KLM.

This year the costs were estimated to increase by 450mln, 350mln caused by higher fuel prices and 100mln by the exchange rate.
So everything equal in 2018 and 2017, the profit in 2018 would only be 950mln. Let's generously assume this is a 30% reduction.
If the 500mln AF profit is reduced by 30%, the profit would reduce to 350mln.
AFAIK this is a generous calculation because AF executes more more flights than KLM, thus the fuel price would a larger affect at AF than at KLM.
The strikes this year have cost AF already over 300mln. So It's very likely AF can't make a profit this year. This is already before accounting a salary raise.
Possibly growth can increase turnover and cause AF to remain profitable.
If I remember correctly the employment cost of AF-KLM is over 1.5billion annually.

I really hope AF gets It's act together. And AF-KLM can acquire 31% of Virgin Atlantic. Than possibly VA can reinforce the AF-KLM group. Thus reducing the France influence. AFAIK this is a better path forward than a break-up of AF and KLM.
 
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keesje
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 7:16 pm

A detail, the claim AF saved KLM during the merger. Who came up with that non-sense?

KLM looked for a strong partner to improve long term stability by securing a bigger home market. Claiming AF somehow "saved" is simply trying to rewrite history. Luckely all happened when internet was there & logging.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Jetty
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 7:44 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
If I remember correctly the employment cost of AF-KLM is over 1.5billion annually.

It is over 7 billion.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 8:07 pm

Jetty wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
If I remember correctly the employment cost of AF-KLM is over 1.5billion annually.

It is over 7 billion.

:oops: I stand corrected. It was 1853mln for Q1 2018. So 4x is roughly 7 billion. It's by far the largest cost item. The second largest cost item for Q1 was fuel with 1061mln on a revenue of 5801mln.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 8:08 pm

Suggestion on BBC News tonight from Bruno Le Maire, that they are in danger of closing down if they don't get their house in order. Interesting...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44021431
 
Jetty
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 8:18 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Suggestion on BBC News tonight from departed AF CEO that they are in good condition to go bust. Interesting...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44021431

According to that article the economy minister said so.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 8:25 pm

Jetty wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Suggestion on BBC News tonight from departed AF CEO that they are in good condition to go bust. Interesting...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44021431

According to that article the economy minister said so.


Yes, edited since initial posting. So basically the government have had enough too. Definitely one worth watching...
 
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keesje
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Sun May 06, 2018 8:37 pm

The certainty of AF and it's employees is that the government will step in if things really get wrong.

It proved a solid assumption over the last 50 years. The CGT AF is strike first then talk. We can't go bankrupt, let "them" bleed.

If KLM strikes, things really went wrong and the strike will be very short. Employees & management will prevent a strike hurting their company / passengers by all means.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
anstar
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Mon May 07, 2018 7:15 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:

I really hope AF gets It's act together. And AF-KLM can acquire 31% of Virgin Atlantic. Than possibly VA can reinforce the AF-KLM group. Thus reducing the France influence. AFAIK this is a better path forward than a break-up of AF and KLM.


Buying a stake in a loss making airline ie Virgin Atlantic is that such a great idea?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Mon May 07, 2018 10:18 pm

GCT64 wrote:
The market caps of leading European airlines tell the story ...

AFKL = €3.3BN
while ....
Ryanair = €18BN
IAG = €15.6BN
Lufthansa = €11.8BN
Easyjet = €7.4BN
Wizz Air = €4BN (Wizz Air is worth more than AFKL ... let that sink in.....)

AFKL is moving closer to Norwegian's valuation than it is to the others
Norwegian = €1.2BN

Wow... That hit home.

AFKLM is 18.3% of FR or 275% of Norwegian. Because of the strife, it cannot be compared to LH group or IAG...

Wow...

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Mon May 07, 2018 10:33 pm

I wonder if DL will step in and attempt to assert influence on the AF situation. Because if AF-KL goes under and with AZ also in misery, SkyTeam would be dead and gone in the blink of an eye.
At the same time, OneWorld and Star would become extremely powerful. Europe would suffer the consequences of a duopoly at that point.
 
Byrdluvs747
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Wed May 09, 2018 4:23 am

Dieuwer wrote:
I wonder if DL will step in and attempt to assert influence on the AF situation.


Please explain where you think DL (a US company) will acquire this influence that they can then assert on French unions?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
factsonly
Topic Author
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 11, 2018 10:35 am

The April 2018 Performance data are now available, also Year 2018 figures thus far:

- AIR FRANCE - April 2018 + Full Year:
Passengers carried 3,918,000 versus 4,289,000 (-8.7%) / Year 2018 (-1.5%)
Revenue pax-kilometers (m RPK) 10,922 versus 11,968 (-8.7%) / Year 2018 (-0.1%)
Available seat-kilometers (m ASK) 12,689 versus 13,899 (-8.7%) / Year 2018 (-1.3%)
Load factor 86.1% versus 86.1% no change / Year 2018 +1%

- KLM - April 2018 + Full Year:
Passengers carried 2,941,000 versus 2,797,000 +5.2% / Year 2018 +8.4%
Revenue pax-kilometers (m RPK) 9,100 versus 8,752 +4.0% / Year 2018 +6.6%
Available seat-kilometers (m ASK) 10,099 versus 9,781 +3.3% / Year 2018 +5.1%
Load factor 90.1% versus 89.5% +0.6 / Year 2018 +1.2%
 
Jetty
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Re: AF / KLM announce 1st Quarter 2018 Results

Fri May 11, 2018 10:00 pm

Ha, 'restoring the balance between AF and KL' as desired by the AF pilots isn't going very well. :lol:

For the first time in the history of AF/KL former KL (KL+HV) is larger than former AF (AF+A5) in terms of passengers carried and RPK. :thumbsup:

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