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Revelation
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Mon May 07, 2018 12:03 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Not sure where your statement comes from, but BA has stated repeatedly that what they need is more A380s, they just don't want to pay the tagged price.

Actually what WW said just two months ago that the price for A380s is "ridiculous" and he "wouldn't waste 10 seconds on it" based on prices he has seen ( ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ou-446484/ ).

The only way A380 makes sense is if it's priced far lower than Airbus is willing to sell it for. As Matt and others say, the airline doesn't care if the money gets spent on fuel or on capital or on flying empty seats around, they care about the bottom line once all is factored in. The A380's capital costs are way too high for the economy it delivers. If you don't believe me, believe WW or all the rest of the CEOs outside of EK who aren't willing to buy any A380s.

777x will come with state of the art engines hanging off wings optimized just for them with a redesigned interior. If priced aggressively enough, IMHO it could easily fill some of the roles WW wants to fill.

Jayafe wrote:
There's no reason, business plan, growth or opportunity that justifies ordering 777x's for BA or almost any other airline (even LH is trying to get rid of that order). 787s will be the stepping point for BA.

What Spohr did say about the 777x is the most misunderstood thing ever on a.net.

Here's what he said:

“I’m not sure if we’ve really ordered enough A350s and possibly too many 777Xs,” Spohr said at a staff meeting, a replay of which was seen by Bloomberg. “We must now think about either stretching the 777X in a deal with Boeing to let them come in more slowly, or increasing profitability to finance our overdue fleet investments.”

Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... serve-cash

So, he's taking about stretching deliveries or making more money elsewhere to be in a position to still take the 777s, nothing about "getting rid of that order".

As Keesje would say, perhaps hope is taking over?
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MrHMSH
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Mon May 07, 2018 12:06 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
BA and RR is a family affair.

I don't think that the B777X has any advantages over the A350 in this campaign. RR and Airbus should prevail.

If BA could use any Boeing aircraft, it's definitely the B787-10. The perfect aircraft for TATL and sufficient range to cover a lot of Asian routes and sized perfectly to replace all variants of the B772. Low frequency trunk routes are best covered with a combination of A35K and A388.

However, one can't rule out an A330NEO order.
Airbus and RR would love to have BA on board together with IB.

IMO this is a A339 vs. B787-10 decision.


I can see absolutely zero way the A339 gets a look in here. If the A339 made sense for IAG I suspect they would have ordered it for EI, IB or Level, albeit it could happen in the future, but it's a slim possibility.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Mon May 07, 2018 4:56 pm

Andy33 wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
Probably a long shot, but maybe it’s a 797 order that will be announced when Boeing announces it. The 767 was a good fit for BA and I could see them being one of the first airlines (along with DL) to order the 797.


The 767 was such a good fit that BA sold on a quarter of the total fleet to Qantas as long ago as 2000. Had Boeing been able to deliver 787s to schedule in the early years of the model, long/medium haul 767s would have entirely left the fleet a good five years earlier than they did, BA liked 767s so much. The remaining shorthaul configured 767s leave the fleet this year.
None of this means IAG will never order a 797, once they can be certain what it actually is, just not as a 767 replacement. 788s and A321s are already doing that job.


I’m sure they would be interested in something that slots in between the 321 and 788 which is probably what the 797 would offer to airlines. DL and UA would probably order 50+ off the bat as no one can question their fondness for the 767.
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pabloeing
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Mon May 07, 2018 5:07 pm

B777X and B787-10 is the logical option for the order.....
 
garf25
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Mon May 07, 2018 5:39 pm

Maybe just maybe this is all a ploy to get a ridiculous steal on a380's!
 
garf25
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Mon May 07, 2018 5:39 pm

Maybe just maybe this is all a ploy to get a ridiculous steal on a380's!
 
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Revelation
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Mon May 07, 2018 6:02 pm

garf25 wrote:
Maybe just maybe this is all a ploy to get a ridiculous steal on a380's!

I'm impressed that you lurked for 13 years and chose this as your first and second posts! :biggrin:

As above BA knows what Airbus wants in exchange for an A380 and what they'll pay, and the gap is very wide.

I doubt a little public saber rattling is going to change things much if at all.

I think Airbus has their plan for A380, build 6 a year till the great VLA rebirth of the 2020s happens, and I don't think they're going to go out of their way to give BA a great deal on some.

If BA's willing to pay them what it really costs them to build a few non-EK frames, then fine, otherwise, they pass.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
bigjku
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Mon May 07, 2018 6:08 pm

garf25 wrote:
Maybe just maybe this is all a ploy to get a ridiculous steal on a380's!


Airbus chopped the rate so much on the A380 they it doesn’t seem to need anymore orders. As they lose money on every single one they deliver delivering a few more won’t really appeal to Airbus.

Their long term play with the A380 has to be to nurse it along until they can maybe do a NEO of it. They effectively punted on finalizing that decision and IMHO they need to piggyback on a 787 new engine because no one will put one together for that plane by itself.

The only other reasons to sell anymore of them would be to avoid some sort of onorus contract provisions either with the buyers or the financiers of the project but we don’t have that information.
 
Sooner787
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Mon May 07, 2018 6:26 pm

You know, Boeing could offer BA earlier delivery slots for additional 787's and eventually 777X's
if ETIHAD ends up cancelling or deferring their Boeing orders.
 
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yyz717
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Tue May 08, 2018 4:30 pm

pabloeing wrote:
B777X and B787-10 is the logical option for the order.....


Agree. That's my guess also. Plus perhaps some discounted end-of-the-line 77Ws.
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gatibosgru
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Tue May 08, 2018 4:37 pm

Probably more 787s.
@DadCelo
 
Planesmart
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Tue May 08, 2018 7:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
Here's what he said:

“I’m not sure if we’ve really ordered enough A350s and possibly too many 777Xs,” Spohr said at a staff meeting, a replay of which was seen by Bloomberg. “We must now think about either stretching the 777X in a deal with Boeing to let them come in more slowly, or increasing profitability to finance our overdue fleet investments.”

Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... serve-cash

So, he's taking about stretching deliveries or making more money elsewhere to be in a position to still take the 777s, nothing about "getting rid of that order".

'...or increasing profitability...'

Not talking about 'making more money elsewhere'. 'Increasing profitability' when used in the same sentence as the aircraft model, is negotiating speak for 'we want to pay less'.

ME3 777X price bar is set very low, which affects customer expectations. LH has become more aware of just how low, realising they are paying too much. A380 pricing underpins 777X pricing, which is why the recent EK top up order was so unwelcome (though it's still not confirmed). Boeing was hoping for more 777X's.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Tue May 08, 2018 10:40 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
BA and RR is a family affair.

I don't think that the B777X has any advantages over the A350 in this campaign. RR and Airbus should prevail.

If BA could use any Boeing aircraft, it's definitely the B787-10. The perfect aircraft for TATL and sufficient range to cover a lot of Asian routes and sized perfectly to replace all variants of the B772. Low frequency trunk routes are best covered with a combination of A35K and A388.

However, one can't rule out an A330NEO order.
Airbus and RR would love to have BA on board together with IB.

IMO this is a A339 vs. B787-10 decision.


I can see absolutely zero way the A339 gets a look in here. If the A339 made sense for IAG I suspect they would have ordered it for EI, IB or Level, albeit it could happen in the future, but it's a slim possibility.


In theory you are right.
In practice though, BA is receiving rather poor ratings from customers especially in economy class. BA is battling low yields and low load factors on their long haul operations.
Eventually, a decision will have to be made on whether to continue on this trend or climb back the ladder and become a premium airline again. LHR is a premium market but BA is cutting its product and the yields are following along.

Just 2 days ago I flew HND-LHR-BRU with the first sector on the JAL red eye B788.
The lounge facilities are not comparable even though BA still offer a good food selection and good facilities in T5. JAL just goes above and beyond and offers awesome facilities.
The M&S BOB was acceptable given the short second sector, but the delays out of LHR made it an acceptable experience compared to the awesome JAL B788 flight.
Going forward, BA will have to decide whether they want to be an acceptable airline or an awesome airline. More precisely, which routes they want to be awesome on and which ones they want to be acceptable on.
The B787 is an awesome aircraft in JL's configuration. But in a 9 abreast configuration, it quickly becomes a very poor product. I also wonder why airlines choose the 3-3-3 configuration over 2-5-2?
The A339 will probably not be as quiet as the B787, but considering its seating configuration, it might be a better option for those thinner or shorter high yielding routes where BA wants to offer a good product but the A35J or A359 is too much aircraft.
Considering IB will probably order it, the A339 offers a better comfort/cost compromise than the B789 or B787-10 and should IMO also be considered for BA.
 
airzona11
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Tue May 08, 2018 11:47 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
In theory you are right.
In practice though, BA is receiving rather poor ratings from customers especially in economy class. BA is battling low yields and low load factors on their long haul operations.
Eventually, a decision will have to be made on whether to continue on this trend or climb back the ladder and become a premium airline again. LHR is a premium market but BA is cutting its product and the yields are following along.

Just 2 days ago I flew HND-LHR-BRU with the first sector on the JAL red eye B788.
The lounge facilities are not comparable even though BA still offer a good food selection and good facilities in T5. JAL just goes above and beyond and offers awesome facilities.
The M&S BOB was acceptable given the short second sector, but the delays out of LHR made it an acceptable experience compared to the awesome JAL B788 flight.
Going forward, BA will have to decide whether they want to be an acceptable airline or an awesome airline. More precisely, which routes they want to be awesome on and which ones they want to be acceptable on.
The B787 is an awesome aircraft in JL's configuration. But in a 9 abreast configuration, it quickly becomes a very poor product. I also wonder why airlines choose the 3-3-3 configuration over 2-5-2?
The A339 will probably not be as quiet as the B787, but considering its seating configuration, it might be a better option for those thinner or shorter high yielding routes where BA wants to offer a good product but the A35J or A359 is too much aircraft.
Considering IB will probably order it, the A339 offers a better comfort/cost compromise than the B789 or B787-10 and should IMO also be considered for BA.


Not sure what in your post points to why BA would order the A339. BA is a premium airline, not the most premium sure, but almost their entire long-haul fleet offers F/J/Y+ for those who pay for it. The airplane doesn't make the comfort level as you point out, the airline does. This doesn't favor the 787 vs the A330 either way. Y class doesn't pay for that, the people who do fly the premium cabins. BA or any airline will not order a plane to serve "a lower-yielding route" with debateable more comfort in economy class. Just not the way it works.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Wed May 09, 2018 7:13 am

airzona11 wrote:
...BA is a premium airline...


Not anymore, but living from its former reputation to rip off passengers with low class service (and seats)
 
Waterbomber
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Wed May 09, 2018 8:38 am

airzona11 wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
In theory you are right.
In practice though, BA is receiving rather poor ratings from customers especially in economy class. BA is battling low yields and low load factors on their long haul operations.
Eventually, a decision will have to be made on whether to continue on this trend or climb back the ladder and become a premium airline again. LHR is a premium market but BA is cutting its product and the yields are following along.

Just 2 days ago I flew HND-LHR-BRU with the first sector on the JAL red eye B788.
The lounge facilities are not comparable even though BA still offer a good food selection and good facilities in T5. JAL just goes above and beyond and offers awesome facilities.
The M&S BOB was acceptable given the short second sector, but the delays out of LHR made it an acceptable experience compared to the awesome JAL B788 flight.
Going forward, BA will have to decide whether they want to be an acceptable airline or an awesome airline. More precisely, which routes they want to be awesome on and which ones they want to be acceptable on.
The B787 is an awesome aircraft in JL's configuration. But in a 9 abreast configuration, it quickly becomes a very poor product. I also wonder why airlines choose the 3-3-3 configuration over 2-5-2?
The A339 will probably not be as quiet as the B787, but considering its seating configuration, it might be a better option for those thinner or shorter high yielding routes where BA wants to offer a good product but the A35J or A359 is too much aircraft.
Considering IB will probably order it, the A339 offers a better comfort/cost compromise than the B789 or B787-10 and should IMO also be considered for BA.


Not sure what in your post points to why BA would order the A339. BA is a premium airline, not the most premium sure, but almost their entire long-haul fleet offers F/J/Y+ for those who pay for it. The airplane doesn't make the comfort level as you point out, the airline does. This doesn't favor the 787 vs the A330 either way. Y class doesn't pay for that, the people who do fly the premium cabins. BA or any airline will not order a plane to serve "a lower-yielding route" with debateable more comfort in economy class. Just not the way it works.


As pointed out by Jayafe, BA is no longer a premium airline in terms of services offered.
Sure, BA offers several classes of services, but the economy class is where the majority flies and what airlines rely on to cover their fixed cost base.
Also, having recently flown in all classes except F and on several airlines, I can tell you that how an aairline treats Y passengers very much reflects how an airline treats its front cabin passengers.
If you're squeezed in like a sardine in Y, most likely your J configuration will be less generous too.
The fare differences between Y and Y+ are significant on BA as they are on JL.
However, Y with JL is cheaper than Y+ with BA and if on the B788, as comfortable. But JL offers complimentary lounge services even to Y+ and get this... On the red eye HND-LHR even to Y passengers!
So yes, at the end of the day, what you offer in each class of service is important considering that other airlines can easily get any passenger's business if they can offer better value for money even if at slightly higher cost.
BA is profitable, but one has to wonder if they wouldn't be more so if they aim higher. London is a market that can afford it.
 
TC957
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Wed May 09, 2018 8:56 am

Jayafe wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
...BA is a premium airline...


Not anymore, but living from its former reputation to rip off passengers with low class service (and seats)

Totally agree. BA is a choice of those having to go anywhere, the ME3 and Far East airlines are the choice of those wanting to go.
 
mutu
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Wed May 09, 2018 11:48 am

[
In theory you are right.
In practice though, BA is receiving rather poor ratings from customers especially in economy class. BA is battling low yields and low load factors on their long haul operations.


.[/quote]

Not sure that is the case is it? Load factors are rising month on month, as is premium traffic

Yield pressure comes from the abundance of competition in the UK air market but profits are rising
 
Pbb152
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Wed May 09, 2018 1:45 pm

Jayafe wrote:
RayChuang wrote:
My guess is that BA is preparing to buy a big 779 order--somewhere between 35 and 50 planes. That will allow BA to completely phase out the well-maintained, but long in the tooth, 744 fleet.


744s replacements have being already pointed and scheduled with the existing orders. There's no reason, business plan, growth or opportunity that justifies ordering 777x's for BA or almost any other airline (even LH is trying to get rid of that order). 787s will be the stepping point for BA, I indeed see a decent Dreamliner top up coming while they continue browsing for cheap A380s for growth in the major routes.


Amazing! There is no growth or opportunity for the 777X. But there is reason to look for cheap A380’s for.......wait for it everybody......GROWTH of major routes.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 26279
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Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Wed May 09, 2018 2:21 pm

Pbb152 wrote:
Amazing! There is no growth or opportunity for the 777X. But there is reason to look for cheap A380’s for.......wait for it everybody......GROWTH of major routes.

The only way adding A380s works for BA is if they are cheap. This is what WW has been saying all along. Clearly Airbus has decided to not sell new A380s cheaply. I don't think of BA as an airline that likes to buy used aircraft, although there are instances of it historically. Clearly re-configuring a non-BA A380 to BA configuration is expensive. Clearly A380 is a solid generation or more behind 777X on engine technology. I could see Boeing inducing an order from BA on 77X especially now that the Iran slots are officially available, and maybe some 77W too.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
airzona11
Posts: 1880
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: British Airways in talks to order Boeing Widebodies

Wed May 09, 2018 3:55 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
In theory you are right.
In practice though, BA is receiving rather poor ratings from customers especially in economy class. BA is battling low yields and low load factors on their long haul operations.
Eventually, a decision will have to be made on whether to continue on this trend or climb back the ladder and become a premium airline again. LHR is a premium market but BA is cutting its product and the yields are following along.

Just 2 days ago I flew HND-LHR-BRU with the first sector on the JAL red eye B788.
The lounge facilities are not comparable even though BA still offer a good food selection and good facilities in T5. JAL just goes above and beyond and offers awesome facilities.
The M&S BOB was acceptable given the short second sector, but the delays out of LHR made it an acceptable experience compared to the awesome JAL B788 flight.
Going forward, BA will have to decide whether they want to be an acceptable airline or an awesome airline. More precisely, which routes they want to be awesome on and which ones they want to be acceptable on.
The B787 is an awesome aircraft in JL's configuration. But in a 9 abreast configuration, it quickly becomes a very poor product. I also wonder why airlines choose the 3-3-3 configuration over 2-5-2?
The A339 will probably not be as quiet as the B787, but considering its seating configuration, it might be a better option for those thinner or shorter high yielding routes where BA wants to offer a good product but the A35J or A359 is too much aircraft.
Considering IB will probably order it, the A339 offers a better comfort/cost compromise than the B789 or B787-10 and should IMO also be considered for BA.


Not sure what in your post points to why BA would order the A339. BA is a premium airline, not the most premium sure, but almost their entire long-haul fleet offers F/J/Y+ for those who pay for it. The airplane doesn't make the comfort level as you point out, the airline does. This doesn't favor the 787 vs the A330 either way. Y class doesn't pay for that, the people who do fly the premium cabins. BA or any airline will not order a plane to serve "a lower-yielding route" with debateable more comfort in economy class. Just not the way it works.


As pointed out by Jayafe, BA is no longer a premium airline in terms of services offered.
Sure, BA offers several classes of services, but the economy class is where the majority flies and what airlines rely on to cover their fixed cost base.
Also, having recently flown in all classes except F and on several airlines, I can tell you that how an aairline treats Y passengers very much reflects how an airline treats its front cabin passengers.
If you're squeezed in like a sardine in Y, most likely your J configuration will be less generous too.
The fare differences between Y and Y+ are significant on BA as they are on JL.
However, Y with JL is cheaper than Y+ with BA and if on the B788, as comfortable. But JL offers complimentary lounge services even to Y+ and get this... On the red eye HND-LHR even to Y passengers!
So yes, at the end of the day, what you offer in each class of service is important considering that other airlines can easily get any passenger's business if they can offer better value for money even if at slightly higher cost.
BA is profitable, but one has to wonder if they wouldn't be more so if they aim higher. London is a market that can afford it.


I get it, on 1 route, JAL (a BA partner) offers special service vs BA. This happens in the airline business. I guess I just dont see any of the logic. You are saying BA is profitable, but are saying they should add costs to become more profitable? London does have a lot of premium traffic and BA captures a lot of that, they fly near the most amount of F and J class seats worldwide. London is also very competitive. JAL is the only airline in the world offering 8-across in 787s. Why does BA charge a "significant" difference from Y to Y+? Becuase people are willing to pay for it. BA flies 10s of thousands of premium passengers every single day, you can say they are not premium, but that is just conjecture.

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