master14225
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When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 3:50 pm

I was wondering why doesn't ANA or JAL make new routes to YYZ. They are doing very well in YVR and ORD and I feel that ANA especially can do a route to YYZ due to star alliance with AC w connections to domestic, trans-border, and elsewhere. I'd also much rather connect in YVR or ORD and fly ANA or JAL to Japan than AC but a direct flight with both airlines from YYZ would be great too.

YYZ has many flights from other Asian carriers Korean Air, Cathay Pacific, Eva Air, etc. So I don't get why can't any Japanese carrier do well in YYZ.
 
727LOVER
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 4:47 pm

Does AC fly Toronto-Tokyo?
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bmacleod
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 5:06 pm

727LOVER wrote:
Does AC fly Toronto-Tokyo?


Yes they do and with both NH and AC members of Star Alliance - no real need for NH to fly to YYZ - unless there is a big increase in pax demand.

And with WS code-sharing with JL and JL serving YVR - no reason for JL to fly to YYZ unless as stated above there is a big increase in pax traffic.

Then again WS may be eyeing YYZ-NRT upon 787 delivery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WestJet#Codeshare_agreements
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master14225
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 5:26 pm

I'm just saying cause ORD, BOS, IAD, and IAH get traffic from either NH or JL and I feel that Toronto can sustain traffic too if they let customers connect onto AC flights in Toronto on that route from either NH or JL.
 
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Polot
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 5:34 pm

Each country only has rights to one HND slot. AC has Canada’s and ANA has Japan’s. AC runs Toronto-HND (in addition to NRT) so rather than compete directly with their partner ANA uses their slot to Vancouver. JL knows they can’t compete against AC+NH’s combined might in the Toronto market, especially since AC+NH have a flight with access to the preferred Tokyo airport, so they don’t bother. They just fly to Vancouver where there is more traffic to fight with AC and NH over.

ANA is not coming to Toronto because they don’t have to. Their partner AC takes care of the route.
 
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kngkyle
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 5:46 pm

It is rather strange that ORD has 5x daily flights to Tokyo but YYZ only has a single daily flight. Both cities are around the same size and distance and both are the dominant players in their region.
 
briguychau
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 5:52 pm

Polot wrote:
AC runs Toronto-HND (in addition to NRT)


Except they don't really run NRT anymore. The YYZ-NRT flight now stops in Calgary. The existing NRT slot for the YYZ non-stop is now used for YUL.
 
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 5:55 pm

kngkyle wrote:
It is rather strange that ORD has 5x daily flights to Tokyo but YYZ only has a single daily flight. Both cities are around the same size and distance and both are the dominant players in their region.

The cities are similar sizes. The metro areas are not-Chicago’s is almost twice as big. Then add in that ORD is home to two large hubs from airlines in competing alliances, both partnering with a Japanese airline, and ORD has a home market advantage in drawing connecting traffic from the Midwest US.
 
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 5:58 pm

YYZ-Tokyo is twice daily, one each to HND and NRT. The latter route has a stopover in YYC as of this year, due to AC launching YUL-NRT and utilizing YYZ-NRT's slot.

I think the reason why you dont see JL in YYZ is because they have premium heavy dreamliners, not well suited for Canada-Japan. As for NH, no sense in competing against AC on the route.

ORD has more flights to Tokyo because ORD is a hub for 2 major carriers, and has double the feed YYZ has. ORD handles 80 million passengers vs YYZ's 47 million.
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Fri May 04, 2018 6:11 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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XAM2175
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 5:59 pm

I would also be looking at the bilateral agreement between Canada and Japan as a potential source of limitations - for example, it might be that NH and JL have between them used all their available capacity and frequencies on their existing routes.
 
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longhauler
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 6:02 pm

XAM2175 wrote:
I would also be looking at the bilateral agreement between Canada and Japan as a potential source of limitations - for example, it might be that NH and JL have between them used all their available capacity and frequencies on their existing routes.

It is virtually unrestricted between the two countries, the only limitation would be airport slots.

As stated above, AC only has one daily HND slot but three NRT slots. The NRT slots are used with YVR-NRT, YYZ-YYC-NRT and YUL-NRT. In addition, AC also flies from YVR to other Japanese cities that vary by season.
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 6:14 pm

Polot wrote:
Each country only has rights to one HND slot. AC has Canada’s and ANA has Japan’s. AC runs Toronto-HND (in addition to NRT) so rather than compete directly with their partner ANA uses their slot to Vancouver. JL knows they can’t compete against AC+NH’s combined might in the Toronto market, especially since AC+NH have a flight with access to the preferred Tokyo airport, so they don’t bother. They just fly to Vancouver where there is more traffic to fight with AC and NH over.

ANA is not coming to Toronto because they don’t have to. Their partner AC takes care of the route.


Forget about YYZ-HND.

The Toronto-Tokyo market is much bigger than I thought for AC serving 2 Tokyo airports from YYZ.

Yes and in addition to airline alliances like Oneworld and Star - it all come down to availability of airport slots and market size.

ORD is much bigger than YYZ hence they have more slots for JL AA UA and NH to serve NRT.
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 6:37 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
YYZ-Tokyo is twice daily, one each to HND and NRT. The latter route has a stopover in YYC as of this year, due to AC launching YUL-NRT and utilizing YYZ-NRT's slot.

I think the reason why you dont see JL in YYZ is because they have premium heavy dreamliners, not well suited for Canada-Japan. As for NH, no sense in competing against AC on the route.

ORD has more flights to Tokyo because ORD is a hub for 2 major carriers, and has double the feed YYZ has. ORD handles 80 million passengers vs YYZ's 47 million.


It's not only metro size difference between Chicago and Toronto, the Japanese business presence in Chicago is also much stronger than Toronto (Travel to the stretch of I-90 near Arlington Heights and Hoffman Estates, or further south to Schaumburg, just to start). You also got those auto plants for Toyota (Kentucky & Princeton, IN), Subaru (Lafayette, IN), Honda (NW Columbus OH area) that would go through ORD.

Meanwhile, IIRC Japanese business in Canada are mostly in Vancouver BC area instead of Toronto. Hence you got JL, NH, and AC flying between TYO and YVR, but only AC between TYO and YYZ. Does not mean Japan-Canada air traffic is not growing, though (YYC-NRT went daily, at least I think in the summer, YUL-NRT beginning next month).
 
wave46
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 8:11 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
YYZ-Tokyo is twice daily, one each to HND and NRT. The latter route has a stopover in YYC as of this year, due to AC launching YUL-NRT and utilizing YYZ-NRT's slot.

I think the reason why you dont see JL in YYZ is because they have premium heavy dreamliners, not well suited for Canada-Japan. As for NH, no sense in competing against AC on the route.

ORD has more flights to Tokyo because ORD is a hub for 2 major carriers, and has double the feed YYZ has. ORD handles 80 million passengers vs YYZ's 47 million.


It's not only metro size difference between Chicago and Toronto, the Japanese business presence in Chicago is also much stronger than Toronto (Travel to the stretch of I-90 near Arlington Heights and Hoffman Estates, or further south to Schaumburg, just to start). You also got those auto plants for Toyota (Kentucky & Princeton, IN), Subaru (Lafayette, IN), Honda (NW Columbus OH area) that would go through ORD.

Meanwhile, IIRC Japanese business in Canada are mostly in Vancouver BC area instead of Toronto. Hence you got JL, NH, and AC flying between TYO and YVR, but only AC between TYO and YYZ. Does not mean Japan-Canada air traffic is not growing, though (YYC-NRT went daily, at least I think in the summer, YUL-NRT beginning next month).


There is some business connections between the Southern Ontario and Japan.

Honda has a facility in Alliston, ON.
Toyota has 2 - one in Cambridge and another in Woodstock.
Many Japanese corporations keep their Canadian HQs in the Greater Toronto Area.

It might be to the same degree as the Midwest US, but there is certainly some.
 
edmountain
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 8:18 pm

Polot wrote:
kngkyle wrote:
It is rather strange that ORD has 5x daily flights to Tokyo but YYZ only has a single daily flight. Both cities are around the same size and distance and both are the dominant players in their region.

The cities are similar sizes. The metro areas are not-Chicago’s is almost twice as big. Then add in that ORD is home to two large hubs from airlines in competing alliances, both partnering with a Japanese airline, and ORD has a home market advantage in drawing connecting traffic from the Midwest US.

Chicago MSA population: 9,472,676
Toronto GTA population: 6,417,516

So Chicago is bigger but not almost twice as big.
 
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 8:34 pm

Speaking of Canada, is it a bit strange that Montreal have Trans Pacific flight but Edmonton have none?
This is a placeholder.
 
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iseeyyc
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 8:34 pm

briguychau wrote:
Polot wrote:
AC runs Toronto-HND (in addition to NRT)


Except they don't really run NRT anymore. The YYZ-NRT flight now stops in Calgary. The existing NRT slot for the YYZ non-stop is now used for YUL.


The YYC-NRT 763 now originates in YYZ? Wasn't there a 777 from YYZ-NRT before as well?
 
briguychau
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 8:38 pm

iseeyyc wrote:
briguychau wrote:
Polot wrote:
AC runs Toronto-HND (in addition to NRT)


Except they don't really run NRT anymore. The YYZ-NRT flight now stops in Calgary. The existing NRT slot for the YYZ non-stop is now used for YUL.


The YYC-NRT 763 now originates in YYZ? Wasn't there a 777 from YYZ-NRT before as well?


A few years ago, it was year round YVR-NRT, YYC-NRT, and YYZ-NRT. When AC got a HND slot, they added YYZ-HND year-round and made YYZ-NRT summer seasonal. They've since gradually shifted YYZ-NRT capacity to YYZ-HND, and this year they replaced the YYZ-NRT flight with YUL-NRT. And starting this winter, YYC-NRT is being replaced by YUL-NRT.
 
wave46
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 9:01 pm

c933103 wrote:
Speaking of Canada, is it a bit strange that Montreal have Trans Pacific flight but Edmonton have none?


Not particularly.

Montreal serves as the primary airport for the entire province of Quebec (and some points east and west of it) and has a potential catchment area of 8-9 million people.

Calgary is a hub for both major Canadian airlines in Alberta. It competes with Edmonton. In addition, I'd estimate that Edmonton's catchment area is somewhat less than 2 million people. Effectively, Edmonton is a feeder for other hubs in the country.
 
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 9:13 pm

wave46 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Speaking of Canada, is it a bit strange that Montreal have Trans Pacific flight but Edmonton have none?


Not particularly.

Montreal serves as the primary airport for the entire province of Quebec (and some points east and west of it) and has a potential catchment area of 8-9 million people.

Calgary is a hub for both major Canadian airlines in Alberta. It competes with Edmonton. In addition, I'd estimate that Edmonton's catchment area is somewhat less than 2 million people. Effectively, Edmonton is a feeder for other hubs in the country.

This plus there's no inbound tourist market for Edmonton in contrast to Calgary.
 
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 9:14 pm

wave46 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
YYZ-Tokyo is twice daily, one each to HND and NRT. The latter route has a stopover in YYC as of this year, due to AC launching YUL-NRT and utilizing YYZ-NRT's slot.

I think the reason why you dont see JL in YYZ is because they have premium heavy dreamliners, not well suited for Canada-Japan. As for NH, no sense in competing against AC on the route.

ORD has more flights to Tokyo because ORD is a hub for 2 major carriers, and has double the feed YYZ has. ORD handles 80 million passengers vs YYZ's 47 million.


It's not only metro size difference between Chicago and Toronto, the Japanese business presence in Chicago is also much stronger than Toronto (Travel to the stretch of I-90 near Arlington Heights and Hoffman Estates, or further south to Schaumburg, just to start). You also got those auto plants for Toyota (Kentucky & Princeton, IN), Subaru (Lafayette, IN), Honda (NW Columbus OH area) that would go through ORD.

Meanwhile, IIRC Japanese business in Canada are mostly in Vancouver BC area instead of Toronto. Hence you got JL, NH, and AC flying between TYO and YVR, but only AC between TYO and YYZ. Does not mean Japan-Canada air traffic is not growing, though (YYC-NRT went daily, at least I think in the summer, YUL-NRT beginning next month).


There is some business connections between the Southern Ontario and Japan.

Honda has a facility in Alliston, ON.
Toyota has 2 - one in Cambridge and another in Woodstock.
Many Japanese corporations keep their Canadian HQs in the Greater Toronto Area.

It might be to the same degree as the Midwest US, but there is certainly some.


I did a quick search after this. The amount of Japanese automobile plants in the Golden Horseshoe do amazed me :white:

I guess with AC (*A in general) dominating Japan-Canada flights, JL just don't want to go into the battle, and NH just let things be. In actuality, it amazed me somewhat as to how infrequent overall YYZ TPAC flights are:

ICN: 1x KE, 1x AC (2/day, same as ORD)
HKG: 10/wk CX, 1x AC (17/wk, 3/wk more than ORD)
HND: 1x AC (Same as ORD, ORD has 4x NRT flights)
TPE: 1x BR (ORD = 5/wk on BR)
PEK: 1x HU, 1x AC (ORD = 18/wk, soon 11/wk)
PVG: 1x MU, 1x AC (ORD = 19/wk)
CAN: 5/wk CZ (ORD = 0)
MNL: 4/wk PR (ORD = 0)

Especially when you considered that GTA has 4x the amount of Chinese compare to Chicagoland, and twice the Filipinos (Koreans are about the same, Japanese are about the same).

EDIT:
c933103 wrote:
Speaking of Canada, is it a bit strange that Montreal have Trans Pacific flight but Edmonton have none?


How so? Montreal is still a much larger metro area compare to Edmonton anyway.
 
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 9:41 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
wave46 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

It's not only metro size difference between Chicago and Toronto, the Japanese business presence in Chicago is also much stronger than Toronto (Travel to the stretch of I-90 near Arlington Heights and Hoffman Estates, or further south to Schaumburg, just to start). You also got those auto plants for Toyota (Kentucky & Princeton, IN), Subaru (Lafayette, IN), Honda (NW Columbus OH area) that would go through ORD.

Meanwhile, IIRC Japanese business in Canada are mostly in Vancouver BC area instead of Toronto. Hence you got JL, NH, and AC flying between TYO and YVR, but only AC between TYO and YYZ. Does not mean Japan-Canada air traffic is not growing, though (YYC-NRT went daily, at least I think in the summer, YUL-NRT beginning next month).


There is some business connections between the Southern Ontario and Japan.

Honda has a facility in Alliston, ON.
Toyota has 2 - one in Cambridge and another in Woodstock.
Many Japanese corporations keep their Canadian HQs in the Greater Toronto Area.

It might be to the same degree as the Midwest US, but there is certainly some.


I did a quick search after this. The amount of Japanese automobile plants in the Golden Horseshoe do amazed me :white:

I guess with AC (*A in general) dominating Japan-Canada flights, JL just don't want to go into the battle, and NH just let things be. In actuality, it amazed me somewhat as to how infrequent overall YYZ TPAC flights are:

ICN: 1x KE, 1x AC (2/day, same as ORD)
HKG: 10/wk CX, 1x AC (17/wk, 3/wk more than ORD)
HND: 1x AC (Same as ORD, ORD has 4x NRT flights)
TPE: 1x BR (ORD = 5/wk on BR)
PEK: 1x HU, 1x AC (ORD = 18/wk, soon 11/wk)
PVG: 1x MU, 1x AC (ORD = 19/wk)
CAN: 5/wk CZ (ORD = 0)
MNL: 4/wk PR (ORD = 0)

Especially when you considered that GTA has 4x the amount of Chinese compare to Chicagoland, and twice the Filipinos (Koreans are about the same, Japanese are about the same).

EDIT:
c933103 wrote:
Speaking of Canada, is it a bit strange that Montreal have Trans Pacific flight but Edmonton have none?


How so? Montreal is still a much larger metro area compare to Edmonton anyway.


For Toronto, there are a couple of errors. CX goes up ton14x weekly, and CZ goes to daily. Looking at peak season to peak season, YYZ and ORD have roughly the same number of flights. Remember YYZ also features extensive flights to Southeast Asia and the middle East.
 
marktci
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 9:56 pm

wave46 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
YYZ-Tokyo is twice daily, one each to HND and NRT. The latter route has a stopover in YYC as of this year, due to AC launching YUL-NRT and utilizing YYZ-NRT's slot.

I think the reason why you dont see JL in YYZ is because they have premium heavy dreamliners, not well suited for Canada-Japan. As for NH, no sense in competing against AC on the route.

ORD has more flights to Tokyo because ORD is a hub for 2 major carriers, and has double the feed YYZ has. ORD handles 80 million passengers vs YYZ's 47 million.


It's not only metro size difference between Chicago and Toronto, the Japanese business presence in Chicago is also much stronger than Toronto (Travel to the stretch of I-90 near Arlington Heights and Hoffman Estates, or further south to Schaumburg, just to start). You also got those auto plants for Toyota (Kentucky & Princeton, IN), Subaru (Lafayette, IN), Honda (NW Columbus OH area) that would go through ORD.

Meanwhile, IIRC Japanese business in Canada are mostly in Vancouver BC area instead of Toronto. Hence you got JL, NH, and AC flying between TYO and YVR, but only AC between TYO and YYZ. Does not mean Japan-Canada air traffic is not growing, though (YYC-NRT went daily, at least I think in the summer, YUL-NRT beginning next month).


There is some business connections between the Southern Ontario and Japan.

Honda has a facility in Alliston, ON.
Toyota has 2 - one in Cambridge and another in Woodstock.
Many Japanese corporations keep their Canadian HQs in the Greater Toronto Area.

It might be to the same degree as the Midwest US, but there is certainly some.


Yep, Honda, Mitsubishi Motors, Toyota and Nissan all have their Canadian head offices in the Toronto area. In addition to the automotive connections, Sony, Fujifilm, Hitachi, Canon, Toshiba, Panasonic, Bridgestone, Mitsui (among others) all have their Canadian head offices in the Toronto area. No shortage of business connections between Toronto and Japan.
 
c933103
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:26 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Speaking of Canada, is it a bit strange that Montreal have Trans Pacific flight but Edmonton have none?


How so? Montreal is still a much larger metro area compare to Edmonton anyway.

With Edmonton in the western side of the country and thus closer to Asia, and I heard more Asian going to Edmonton than Quebec as a whole, although it is in fact a smaller destination.
I would guess that Edmonton might be able to support a bit Trans Pacific connection similar to how Portland is able to, while Montreal give me a feeling like CLT
This is a placeholder.
 
wave46
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:38 pm

c933103 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Speaking of Canada, is it a bit strange that Montreal have Trans Pacific flight but Edmonton have none?


How so? Montreal is still a much larger metro area compare to Edmonton anyway.

With Edmonton in the western side of the country and thus closer to Asia, and I heard more Asian going to Edmonton than Quebec as a whole, although it is in fact a smaller destination.
I would guess that Edmonton might be able to support a bit Trans Pacific connection similar to how Portland is able to, while Montreal give me a feeling like CLT


There are also other cities in Western Canada with many better characteristics to support transpacific flying - Calgary and Vancouver.

Edmonton could be compared to Phoenix in a sense for lack of transpac routes. They're both overshadowed by more attractive tourist destinations (Calgary/Rockies and Las Vegas respectively), larger Pacific coast cities (Vancouver and Los Angeles respectively) and business centres (Calgary and Dallas/Houston).

The fact that Air Canada has continued to add Asian destinations out of Montreal seems to speak for itself with respect to demand.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:53 pm

wave46 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:


How so? Montreal is still a much larger metro area compare to Edmonton anyway.

With Edmonton in the western side of the country and thus closer to Asia, and I heard more Asian going to Edmonton than Quebec as a whole, although it is in fact a smaller destination.
I would guess that Edmonton might be able to support a bit Trans Pacific connection similar to how Portland is able to, while Montreal give me a feeling like CLT


There are also other cities in Western Canada with many better characteristics to support transpacific flying - Calgary and Vancouver.

Edmonton could be compared to Phoenix in a sense for lack of transpac routes. They're both overshadowed by more attractive tourist destinations (Calgary/Rockies and Las Vegas respectively), larger Pacific coast cities (Vancouver and Los Angeles respectively) and business centres (Calgary and Dallas/Houston).

The fact that Air Canada has continued to add Asian destinations out of Montreal seems to speak for itself with respect to demand.


Calgary reminds me more of DEN - regional hub, mid-size business center, with tourism draws (Yes, I know DEN is a much larger hub). YEG can be compare to PHX, but PHX is still a hub while YEG is not one (at least for AC).

As for YUL - there is just no comparable city in US. It is larger than the like of CLT but the airport is not quite megahub enough to be similar to DFW or ATL. Then there is that French factor.
 
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 11:08 pm

kngkyle wrote:
It is rather strange that ORD has 5x daily flights to Tokyo but YYZ only has a single daily flight. Both cities are around the same size and distance and both are the dominant players in their region.


Can you say Open Skies? Canada chokes on the phrase. It prefers 'managed competition' while the U.S. has Open Skies treaties with 120+ countries. Too bad they haven't fully opened Haneda.
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 11:17 pm

marktci wrote:
No shortage of business connections between Toronto and Japan


JAL is looking to expand in North America. YYZ must be one of the top contenders with its number of Japanese businesses and size of the metropolitan area.
 
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longhauler
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Fri May 04, 2018 11:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
kngkyle wrote:
It is rather strange that ORD has 5x daily flights to Tokyo but YYZ only has a single daily flight. Both cities are around the same size and distance and both are the dominant players in their region.


Can you say Open Skies? Canada chokes on the phrase. It prefers 'managed competition' while the U.S. has Open Skies treaties with 120+ countries. Too bad they haven't fully opened Haneda.

Looking at the bilateral between Canada and Japan, I don't see anything that would restrict further or increased access by Japanese carriers should they choose. Either country does not appear to be anywhere close to a maximum, which is stated by city pair, not capacity nor frequency.

Why doesn't Japan open up Haneda? Why doesn't the US open up La Guardia? It's all about managing capacity and capabilities of the airport. How could the US "open up" LGA when it is running at maximum most of the time? Same thing as HND.

Certainly HND slots are hard to find, at least during the day. How about NRT? At one point in time, NRT slots were the most valuable on the earth ... is that still the case? Air Canada's NRT slots were gained when they purchased Canadian Airlines who had been flying to Japan since 1949. The Japanese Government was watching that very closely to make sure it was not a "slot purchase" (not allowed) and an actual purchase of the entire airline.
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northstardc4m
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 12:01 am

Well just to ad both ANA and/or JAL show up most fall seasons in YYZ for foliage tour charters. As i recall JAL supposedly was in talks to start NRT-YYZ in the late 90s in co-operation with Canadian, but I don't know what happened to that, obviously never happened.
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c933103
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 12:20 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
kngkyle wrote:
It is rather strange that ORD has 5x daily flights to Tokyo but YYZ only has a single daily flight. Both cities are around the same size and distance and both are the dominant players in their region.


Can you say Open Skies? Canada chokes on the phrase. It prefers 'managed competition' while the U.S. has Open Skies treaties with 120+ countries. Too bad they haven't fully opened Haneda.

From a Japanese government press release in 2011, it said that air service for airport between the two countries except capital have already been liberalized and from now on fifth freedom will also be liberalized, and it also said that from year 2013 after Narita added extra slot, routes between Japan and Canada from Narita will become open sky.
http://www.mlit.go.jp/report/press/kouk ... 00167.html
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Aircellist
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 4:40 am

Side question: is there a possibility that YUL-NRT becomes daily?
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ahj2000
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 6:19 am

I think connections are huge here,especially when you realize the domestic connections x-YYZ are going to be limited to almost entirely YUL/YOW. Illinois, Ohio, and Michigan have a larger population than Canada in general, and you can connect over ORD to just about anywhere in the Midwest or East Coast.
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KLSMB
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 8:01 am

edmountain wrote:
Polot wrote:
kngkyle wrote:
It is rather strange that ORD has 5x daily flights to Tokyo but YYZ only has a single daily flight. Both cities are around the same size and distance and both are the dominant players in their region.

The cities are similar sizes. The metro areas are not-Chicago’s is almost twice as big. Then add in that ORD is home to two large hubs from airlines in competing alliances, both partnering with a Japanese airline, and ORD has a home market advantage in drawing connecting traffic from the Midwest US.

Chicago MSA population: 9,472,676
Toronto GTA population: 6,417,516

So Chicago is bigger but not almost twice as big.


Metropolitan areas are defined differently in the United States and Canada.
Chicagoland (Chicago metro area) encompasses an area of 28,160 square kilometres and has a population of 9,512,999.
By comparison, the Golden Horseshoe (which would be considered the metropolitan area of Toronto if it were defined by the USA) encompasses an area of 31,561 square kilometres and has a population of 9,245,438.
Both cities and their surrounding areas are very comparable when you look at actual size and population.

I’ve always wondered why Toronto doesn’t have more than 1x daily to Haneda on AC. A daily ANA flight on the YYZ-NRT route would compliment the AC HND service very nicely.
 
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 11:14 am

It’s for a similar reason that YYZ has more China service: business connections.

ORD-TYO is a very large O&D market. It’s comparable to LAX-HKG in size albeit a bit smaller. Whereas YYZ’s business connections are much stronger with China.
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KLSMB
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 11:24 am

Aircellist wrote:
Side question: is there a possibility that YUL-NRT becomes daily?


AC schedules are showing YUL-NRT 1x daily 788 service starting June 1, 2018

ahj2000 wrote:
I think connections are huge here,especially when you realize the domestic connections x-YYZ are going to be limited to almost entirely YUL/YOW. Illinois, Ohio, and Michigan have a larger population than Canada in general, and you can connect over ORD to just about anywhere in the Midwest or East Coast.


I agree that connections are a big factor, as ORD has feed from both AA and UA. But that still doesn’t explain the huge capacity difference of 5x daily Chicago-Tokyo service as compared to the 1x daily Toronto-Tokyo service.
Domestic connections from YYZ include most airports in Eastern Canada (YUL/YOW/YHZ/YXU/YYT/YQG/YQB etc) and transborder connections to cities across the USA. Toronto Pearson Airport (and Air Canada) have made it a priority over the past few years of promoting YYZ as a “superior” transit airport for passengers making connections from USA/Caribbean/Central America/South America to Asia/Europe. ORD definitely offers more domestic US connections especially to regional markets, but YYZ isn’t far behind when it comes to frequent connections to most major and mid-sized US markets.

While I’m glad that YUL will soon have nonstop service to NRT, I’m really surprised that Air Canada wouldn’t keep YYZ-HND and YYZ-NRT. Unless I’m missing something, I can’t imagine much business demand for YUL-NRT unless a lot of it comes as connections from YYZ.
 
iadadd
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 11:53 am

I've repeatedly read that JL's 787s are premium heavy, but if they work on the SAN route, then they should work for YYZ. Unless SAN makes money due to lack of competition..
 
Aircellist
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 12:39 pm

KLSMB wrote:
Aircellist wrote:
Side question: is there a possibility that YUL-NRT becomes daily?


AC schedules are showing YUL-NRT 1x daily 788 service starting June 1, 2018



Sorry, I dropped part of my question: "…daily year-long?"

Looking for bookings next winter, I see only 3X a week.
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dcaviation
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 1:56 pm

Did JAL stopped NRT-YYZ already or do they fly to YYZ from another city? Back in 2014 I've got few JAL 777-200s at YYZ while on spotting trip.
I thought they were regular there.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 2:08 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
It’s for a similar reason that YYZ has more China service: business connections.

ORD-TYO is a very large O&D market. It’s comparable to LAX-HKG in size albeit a bit smaller. Whereas YYZ’s business connections are much stronger with China.


YYZ may have more Chinese services compare to Japan. But the overall service level, quite frankly, are not all that crazy. Especially when you look at YVR and the much crazier amount of Chinese flight there.

Yes, I know distance matter (YVR being a shorter flight), but IMO the Chinese population in GTA vs the Chinese air service is not exactly in proportion.

iadadd wrote:
I've repeatedly read that JL's 787s are premium heavy, but if they work on the SAN route, then they should work for YYZ. Unless SAN makes money due to lack of competition..


The lack of competition certainly help. And people have to remember that AC is a much larger behemoth when it comes to Canada compared to the more fragmented US market.

dcaviation wrote:
Did JAL stopped NRT-YYZ already or do they fly to YYZ from another city? Back in 2014 I've got few JAL 777-200s at YYZ while on spotting trip.
I thought they were regular there.


Most likely a charter. Was it around September/October?
 
whywhyzee
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 3:11 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
It’s for a similar reason that YYZ has more China service: business connections.

ORD-TYO is a very large O&D market. It’s comparable to LAX-HKG in size albeit a bit smaller. Whereas YYZ’s business connections are much stronger with China.


YYZ may have more Chinese services compare to Japan. But the overall service level, quite frankly, are not all that crazy. Especially when you look at YVR and the much crazier amount of Chinese flight there.

Yes, I know distance matter (YVR being a shorter flight), but IMO the Chinese population in GTA vs the Chinese air service is not exactly in proportion.


Flight length is a huge factor. YYZ-China is ~14 hours + flight time, where as YVR-China can be done in 10 hours. The costs associated with flying to YYZ are so much higher, and it requires a far more capable aircraft. Until recently, it wasn’t cost effective. The 77W and now the 787 have been the reason Chinese carriers have opened up more markets in eastern North America.

Looking at YYZ in specific, it has among the highest levels of service to China on the continent, certainly on the eastern half of the continent. The only thing preventing more service is the bilateral which is maxed out. Looking at the rest of Asia, again, Toronto has among the highest service levels of any airport in the Americas. There is service to PEK, PVG, CAN, HKG, ICN, HND, NRT, MNL, BOM, DEL, DXB, AUH, TLV, TPE, CAI, ISB, KHI, LHE, and JED. That is hardly a list that I would call anything less than considerable.
 
master14225
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 3:41 pm

But ANA can also let passengers connect at YYZ to US transborder which then relieves ORD.
 
bmacleod
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 5:08 pm

edmountain wrote:
Chicago MSA population: 9,472,676
Toronto GTA population: 6,417,516

So Chicago is bigger but not almost twice as big.


Interesting Wikipedia only has Urban Metro population as 5.1M-5.9M - has population had a big increase since that page was updated?

Perhaps GTA uses a much larger area for their population tally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto

Still think it will be a while yet before either Japanese carrier - more likely JL will announce YYZ as new destination stop though special tourist flights could happen as early as this year..
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dcaviation
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 10:26 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
Did JAL stopped NRT-YYZ already or do they fly to YYZ from another city? Back in 2014 I've got few JAL 777-200s at YYZ while on spotting trip.
I thought they were regular there.


Most likely a charter. Was it around September/October?


I was there October 5th and October 6th. Both days got JAL 777-200. That's why I thought that they were regular there.
Now it make sense why there were 30-40 local spotters when this plane was showing up.

What's the reason for these charters?
 
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sat May 05, 2018 10:59 pm

dcaviation wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
Did JAL stopped NRT-YYZ already or do they fly to YYZ from another city? Back in 2014 I've got few JAL 777-200s at YYZ while on spotting trip.
I thought they were regular there.


Most likely a charter. Was it around September/October?


I was there October 5th and October 6th. Both days got JAL 777-200. That's why I thought that they were regular there.
Now it make sense why there were 30-40 local spotters when this plane was showing up.

What's the reason for these charters?


Somebody else already gave the answer :spin:

northstardc4m wrote:
Well just to ad both ANA and/or JAL show up most fall seasons in YYZ for foliage tour charters. As i recall JAL supposedly was in talks to start NRT-YYZ in the late 90s in co-operation with Canadian, but I don't know what happened to that, obviously never happened.


JAL (and ANA possibly) have charters to Canada during Fall Foliage season.

Actually, I find information about one later this year (From a Japanese tour agency. Sorry, Japanese only).

https://www.club-t.com/special/abroad/c ... ai/canada/

Departing Oct. 6 from KIX (to YUL), leaving YYZ to KIX a few days later.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sun May 06, 2018 2:23 am

master14225 wrote:
But ANA can also let passengers connect at YYZ to US transborder which then relieves ORD.

Preclearance in YYZ is a wonderful thing, I can agree with that, but either way you're connecting and clearing immigration. Whether that is done in YYZ or ORD, it doesn't really matter. You're just flying AC instead of UA or AA.
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eamondzhang
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sun May 06, 2018 8:19 am

master14225 wrote:
But ANA can also let passengers connect at YYZ to US transborder which then relieves ORD.

When they're sharing the revenue (or read, joint venture) with UA but not AC? No it's not as simple as "relieves ORD" when ORD is already some of their worse-performing NA routes. At least ORD is certainly the easier one when trying to find an award ticket!

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longhauler
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Sun May 06, 2018 12:23 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Preclearance in YYZ is a wonderful thing, I can agree with that, but either way you're connecting and clearing immigration. Whether that is done in YYZ or ORD, it doesn't really matter. You're just flying AC instead of UA or AA.

Connecting through YYZ is far easier than any American hub. Not only is one pre-cleared through YYZ, but baggage does not have to be carried through the transfer either way. Connection times around an hour are now possible as connecting passengers to US pre-clearance get priority through YYZ. (Try a one hour connection through ORD, JFK or MIA).

So (for example) HND-YYZ-CLE is far quicker than HND-ORD-CLE and in both cases, the passenger arrives in CLE as a domestic passenger. Looking at frequent flyer websites, I see that Canadian connections to the US are catching on. On a recent YYZ-SFO flight I flew, I noticed that about a third of the passengers were international connections through YYZ.
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Dominion301
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Mon May 07, 2018 3:00 am

bmacleod wrote:
edmountain wrote:
Chicago MSA population: 9,472,676
Toronto GTA population: 6,417,516

So Chicago is bigger but not almost twice as big.


Interesting Wikipedia only has Urban Metro population as 5.1M-5.9M - has population had a big increase since that page was updated?

Perhaps GTA uses a much larger area for their population tally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto

Still think it will be a while yet before either Japanese carrier - more likely JL will announce YYZ as new destination stop though special tourist flights could happen as early as this year..


Here's what constitutes the GTAs 6.4 million people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_T ... ea_map.svg

The GTA grows by about 75k per year.

YYZ's catchment area though is more like 8-9 million as it excludes places such as Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge, Guelph, Hamilton, Niagara, Barrie, etc., which combined are another 2 million.
 
bmacleod
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Re: When will ANA (All Nippon Airways) or JAL (Japan Airlines) come to Toronto Pearson YYZ?

Mon May 07, 2018 2:07 pm

longhauler wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
Preclearance in YYZ is a wonderful thing, I can agree with that, but either way you're connecting and clearing immigration. Whether that is done in YYZ or ORD, it doesn't really matter. You're just flying AC instead of UA or AA.

Connecting through YYZ is far easier than any American hub. Not only is one pre-cleared through YYZ, but baggage does not have to be carried through the transfer either way. Connection times around an hour are now possible as connecting passengers to US pre-clearance get priority through YYZ. (Try a one hour connection through ORD, JFK or MIA).

So (for example) HND-YYZ-CLE is far quicker than HND-ORD-CLE and in both cases, the passenger arrives in CLE as a domestic passenger. Looking at frequent flyer websites, I see that Canadian connections to the US are catching on. On a recent YYZ-SFO flight I flew, I noticed that about a third of the passengers were international connections through YYZ.


Agree but still think it will be at least a few years before agreements can be made (slots, code-sharing agreements) for NH to touch down in YYZ - if at all.
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