olddominion727
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Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:04 pm

I have always been curious why MCI failed as a hub city? Was it because it was sandwiched between DEN, ORD, STL and DFW? BN tried, no-go, EA tried, no-go, US & YX both tried as focus cities, and it flopped.

What are your thoughts?
 
Bricktop
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:11 pm

Location great, airport layout appalling. I hate to be mean about it, because midwesterners are so nice in general, but it really is bad. All the post 9-11 requirements have been bolted onto a tight space, and the amenities are an embarrassment.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:13 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Location great, airport layout appalling. I hate to be mean about it, because midwesterners are so nice in general, but it really is bad. All the post 9-11 requirements have been bolted onto a tight space, and the amenities are an embarrassment.


This is one of the bigger reasons. WN has even said they will quit adding "connecting opportunities" there until they open the new terminal.
 
wave46
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:14 pm

The terminal design for Kansas City was obsolete a month after it opened. MCI opened in November 1972, security screening was mandated in December '72.

The terminals were not designed for the requirements of secure airside areas. They were designed for ease of access from parking lots. The 'kludging' of the airport into something acceptable required a bunch of compromises. The lack of interconnection between the terminals didn't help.

It really isn't an optimal design. DFW and ORD have large O&D bases to work from. DEN was built up from scratch as a modern airport.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:14 pm

Never traveled through MCI before, so I can't say much about the airport's facilities... The proximity of MCI and STL to ORD make for an unrealistic hub operation, not to mention that I think American Airlines actually had a small hub at STL at one point, which failed...
 
wave46
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:16 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Location great, airport layout appalling.


And yet the layout is very much like DFW's terminals A,B,C,and F.


DFW is much larger that MCI. They could implement the security requirements with fewer compromises than MCI.

Changing terminals at DFW was a pain until the airside people mover was implemented.
 
bob75013
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:19 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Location great, airport layout appalling.


And yet the layout is very much like DFW's terminals A,B,C,and E.
 
CHI2DFW
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:20 pm

Small market = less O&D.
Fewer Fortune 500 = less premium traffic.

Great location, but can’t compete with ORD and DFW.

Even STL isn’t a hub.
 
DDR
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:24 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Location great, airport layout appalling. I hate to be mean about it, because midwesterners are so nice in general, but it really is bad. All the post 9-11 requirements have been bolted onto a tight space, and the amenities are an embarrassment.


That's pretty much the main reason. In addition, while KC is a great town, it doesn't really have the population numbers to support a hub operation.

Geographically, it's in an almost perfect spot.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:25 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Location great, airport layout appalling.


And yet the layout is very much like DFW's terminals A,B,C,and E.

Hmmm, DFW is not what comes to mind when I think of MCI. :o DFW may be 100x bigger, and actually have an airside.
I hope this new terminal works out, because KC itself is a great town and it could make an excellent hub for WN.
 
bradyj23
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 10:43 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Location great, airport layout appalling.


And yet the layout is very much like DFW's terminals A,B,C,and E.


Used to live in KC and DFW. They are not alike at all. The only thing similar is that they are both in circular shapes. The width is completely different which allowed DFW to have room for security. MCI did not. Train/no train. On and on.

Geographically MCI seems like an awesome location. But they just don't have the business ties and O/D traffic to support a large hub
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 11:00 pm

Same reason CLe, STL, PIT, CVG, and MEM are no longer hubs. Not big enough.
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DDR
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 11:12 pm

bradyj23 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Location great, airport layout appalling.


And yet the layout is very much like DFW's terminals A,B,C,and E.


Used to live in KC and DFW. They are not alike at all. The only thing similar is that they are both in circular shapes. The width is completely different which allowed DFW to have room for security. MCI did not. Train/no train. On and on.

Geographically MCI seems like an awesome location. But they just don't have the business ties and O/D traffic to support a large hub


Great post. Probably the best one that explains the situation.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 11:19 pm

The terminal didn't help , but I think MCI would have failed just as PIT, CLE, CVG, MEM, MKE did even if they resolved the terminal issues.

The airlines consolidated and needed less hubs only the strongest overall survived to be legacy hubs.

The cities listed I don't think have any one problem its the puzzle when combined they don't have enough premium travel, tourists, high fare paying last minute business travel, too close to better choices, competition, not growing fast enough etc etc. They just lack what is needed overall and it's more than O&D I think it's yield more than anything. Most lack a little in each it's not one thing why they failed and the others survived.
Last edited by slcdeltarumd11 on Fri May 04, 2018 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Indy
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Fri May 04, 2018 11:19 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Same reason CLe, STL, PIT, CVG, and MEM are no longer hubs. Not big enough.


Not sure I would agree with that. I think the proximity to other hubs for the same carrier did them in. STL too close to ORD for AA. PIT too close to PHL for US. CVG too close to DTW for DL. And MEM too close to ATL for DL. CLT is proof you can make a hub work even with a midsize market. Just need the right combination of location and market size. MCI could work if it had better facilities.
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cledaybuck
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 12:13 am

Indy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Same reason CLe, STL, PIT, CVG, and MEM are no longer hubs. Not big enough.


Not sure I would agree with that. I think the proximity to other hubs for the same carrier did them in. STL too close to ORD for AA. PIT too close to PHL for US. CVG too close to DTW for DL. And MEM too close to ATL for DL. CLT is proof you can make a hub work even with a midsize market. Just need the right combination of location and market size. MCI could work if it had better facilities.

Well sure, if MCI had some unique geography that couldn't be replicated by ORD, STL, DEN, DFW or to a lesser extent CLE, CMH, CVG, IND, MSP, MKE, IAH, and DTW it could have worked. I am just saying, if it was the size of ORD, it would be a Hub no matter the surrounding cities.
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stl07
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 12:18 am

cledaybuck wrote:
Indy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Same reason CLe, STL, PIT, CVG, and MEM are no longer hubs. Not big enough.


Not sure I would agree with that. I think the proximity to other hubs for the same carrier did them in. STL too close to ORD for AA. PIT too close to PHL for US. CVG too close to DTW for DL. And MEM too close to ATL for DL. CLT is proof you can make a hub work even with a midsize market. Just need the right combination of location and market size. MCI could work if it had better facilities.

Well sure, if MCI had some unique geography that couldn't be replicated by ORD, STL, DEN, DFW or to a lesser extent CLE, CMH, CVG, IND, MSP, MKE, IAH, and DTW it could have worked. I am just saying, if it was the size of ORD, it would be a Hub no matter the surrounding cities.

Tell that to BOS, they still don't have a major international hub airline.
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ctrabs0114
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 12:26 am

FA9295 wrote:
Never traveled through MCI before, so I can't say much about the airport's facilities... The proximity of MCI and STL to ORD make for an unrealistic hub operation, not to mention that I think American Airlines actually had a small hub at STL at one point, which failed...


Wasn't AA's STL hub a holdover from TWA?

Also, as much as I love the convenience of how the terminal is set up as far as arriving passengers are concerned (I especially like how it's a relatively short walk from some gates to baggage claim, for example), it's a pain in the neck if you're departing, given how inconvenient the concessions/dining options are located and how the waiting areas are borderline claustrophobic).

I'd suspect that once the new terminal is built at MCI, you might see more focus city opportunities as opposed to traditional hub layouts.
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flyPIT
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 12:43 am

Many comments about MCI having a great location. Personally I think it is a pretty horrible location for a hub. Most of the population in the US is along the east coast and along the west coast. MCI is useless to serve as a hub for transfer traffic within those regions. That's probably 2/3 of the traffic in the US, if not more. Sure, IND, MEM, PIT, CLE, etc are no longer hubs today. But they were successful growing hubs for decades at a time MCI never made it airline after airline. So I think there is more to it than MCI's poor layout.

Sure, MCI is in a good location for transfer traffic between the east and west. But with few exceptions, all major east coast markets have nonstop service with all major west coast markets, and vice versa. Look at JetBlue for example. They have a tremendous amount of nonstop trans-cons for an airline their size. That's why they don't need a mid-con hub, contrary to the belief of many A.netters.

The few mid-con hubs that do survive such as ORD/MDW, MSP, DFW, and IAH are simply very large O&D markets so they support the hubs they have.
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cledaybuck
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 12:57 am

flyPIT wrote:
That's why they don't need a mid-con hub, contrary to the belief of many A.netters.

The few mid-con hubs that do survive such as ORD/MDW, MSP, DFW, and IAH are simply very large O&D markets so they support the hubs they have.

I disagree with the first part. The lack of a hub not on the coast is the main reason why B6 has such a lackluster footprint outside of the coasts.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 12:59 am

Indy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Same reason CLe, STL, PIT, CVG, and MEM are no longer hubs. Not big enough.


Not sure I would agree with that. I think the proximity to other hubs for the same carrier did them in. STL too close to ORD for AA. PIT too close to PHL for US. CVG too close to DTW for DL. And MEM too close to ATL for DL. CLT is proof you can make a hub work even with a midsize market. Just need the right combination of location and market size. MCI could work if it had better facilities.


Nope. Look at the concentration of airports within 200-400 miles of CLT where it can aggregate traffic. Draw the same radius and do an airport count around MCI. MCI gets killed by low proximate population density.
 
bridge29
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 1:09 am

I'm surprised people are talking about the airport.

It's all about the market. With the number of airlines we have left, MCI makes little sense for a hub. It's not a large enough market.
 
bridge29
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 1:10 am

flyPIT wrote:
Many comments about MCI having a great location. Personally I think it is a pretty horrible location for a hub. Most of the population in the US is along the east coast and along the west coast. MCI is useless to serve as a hub for transfer traffic within those regions. That's probably 2/3 of the traffic in the US, if not more. Sure, IND, MEM, PIT, CLE, etc are no longer hubs today. But they were successful growing hubs for decades at a time MCI never made it airline after airline. So I think there is more to it than MCI's poor layout.

Sure, MCI is in a good location for transfer traffic between the east and west. But with few exceptions, all major east coast markets have nonstop service with all major west coast markets, and vice versa. Look at JetBlue for example. They have a tremendous amount of nonstop trans-cons for an airline their size. That's why they don't need a mid-con hub, contrary to the belief of many A.netters.

The few mid-con hubs that do survive such as ORD/MDW, MSP, DFW, and IAH are simply very large O&D markets so they support the hubs they have.


Yeah, it's not about the airport, but you also nailed another important reason.

DFW and ORD hang on as mid-continent hubs because they are massive populations centers with huge O&D. Kansas City isn't that.
 
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 1:42 am

Bricktop wrote:
Location great, airport layout appalling. I hate to be mean about it, because midwesterners are so nice in general, but it really is bad. All the post 9-11 requirements have been bolted onto a tight space, and the amenities are an embarrassment.


I flew MSP-MCI-MCO a few weeks ago with a 2.5 hour layover I could not believe how terrible MCI was. I had heard stories but I was shocked to see it for myself. The terminal is so narrow, like MCI's entire airside is about the same width as just MSP's hallways. The gate areas are not connected to each other so "mouse tubes" had to be added to the outside of the building allow WN pax to connect without re clearing security. When you add the amenities/concessions/security they have managed to shoehorn into the space it is so congested and unpleasant. From what I understand, MCI did not even have bathrooms inside security until 4-5 years ago!

Building a new terminal was a very good call by the MCI voters!

All that said, Kansas City metro is too small to support a hub anyway...
 
afcjets
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 1:44 am

olddominion727 wrote:
I have always been curious why MCI failed as a hub city? Was it because it was sandwiched between DEN, ORD, STL and DFW? BN tried, no-go, EA tried, no-go, US & YX both tried as focus cities, and it flopped.

What are your thoughts?


EA and BN did not last for long, but US had non-hub flying at MCI for close to 10 years. One way it helped US was with transcon from NYC and WAS. US was big at close in DCA and LGA where perimeter rules prevented them from flying nonstop so MCI-LAX/SFO were often thru flights from LGA or DCA.
 
superjeff
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 1:52 am

bob75013 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Location great, airport layout appalling.


And yet the layout is very much like DFW's terminals A,B,C,and E.



Actually, DFW opened two years after MCI, and the design was quite similar. But DFW’s design allowed for enlarging the semi-circular designs to allow for access into a secured area. For reasons at least partially political, Kansas City wouldn’t allow that.

In 1972, there were actually two “hubs” at MCI, TWA and Braniff. When Braniff failed, Eastern started a hub there, which lasted until Lorenzo’s Texas Air closed it, because it made more sense to them to build up Houston. Then US Air took over Terminal A (the old Braniff and Eastern terminal, but it didn’t work for them.

Today they’ve managed, at least in Terminal C, to put multiple gates inside a secure area, but they still haven’t figured out how to have other infastructure, so there are not many restaurants, shops, etc. inside the secure area.

Location wise, MCI is pretty close to the exact middle of the continental U.S., so it would be a good location for a hub. But the airport is the main reason it doesn’t work. I’m not sure even a new terminal will help.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 2:18 am

There is no single answer, but rather a large collection of factors already touched on, including -
    small O/D marketing, small catchment area
    poor physical facilities

MCI cannot remotely be compared to the relative goliath cities of ORD, DFW, IAH. The only mid-con hubs that can be compared are SLC, MSP and DEN.
These 3 are also located in low density surrounding areas, so DEN & MSP thrive based on very strong local economies, far surpassing MCI, while SLC is geographically blessed to reasonably serve as a regional and west coast hub.

Not previously mentioned are the local politics - Missouri is an *extremely* low tax state, and while that has some benefits, it also produces poorly funded public infrastructure. One only needs to spend some time in that state to see that roads, schools, and even airports are woefully underfunded.

MCI will probably never have really good air service unless some bold soul builds up a "hometown airline", focusing on popular routes of interest to the local populace. I don't know that its possible to do today, but the modern iterations of Frontier in the 90's (as a small Denver based carrier flying to small western towns) and Sun Country (flying leisure Minneapolis leisure trips to Florida and Vegas) have demonstrated that it has been, at least in theory, possible to sustain service from a smaller, "flyover country" city.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 2:22 am

O&D is not the sine quo non of hubness.
viewtopic.php?t=602975
Hubs can be connection driven (think DXC, AUH, DOH). The new MCI may attract a "connection player", or maybe Amazon Prime Pax. :D
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 2:34 am

WPvsMW wrote:
O&D is not the sine quo non of hubness.
viewtopic.php?t=602975
Hubs can be connection driven (think DXC, AUH, DOH). The new MCI may attract a "connection player", or maybe Amazon Prime Pax. :D



invoking the super connector hubs of the ME3 is rather preposterous when discussing US mid continent cities that currently have little air service, don't you think?

Let's see - UAE, Qatar: awash in hydrocarbon dollars, with absolute monarchs who rule by lineage and fiat. Kansas City, the second largest city in a state many US citizens cannot even find on a map.

one of those can afford to buy nearly limitless numbers of long haul widebody aircraft to service every populated continent. The other can barely fund their roads and libraries.

hmmmmmmmm........
 
trexel94
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 3:51 am

The best MCI could hope for (even with the new terminal) is a network akin to PDX, RDU or BWI. A small focus city for DL or AA, more SWA cities, a flight to Europe or two, maybe another route to Mexico and there's nothing wrong with that. You don't need a hub to have good air service.

As others have mentioned, strong location doesn't always equal strong air service. KC is a modest sized metro with a largely blue collar based economy with only a handful of F500 companies. Combine that with a poorly design terminal, sandwiched between ORD, DFW and DEN, consolidation of the airline industry, incompetent city leadership with no foresight or vision, lack luster economic/population growth there's not much incentive to grow a hub. And despite all of that, MCI is fairly well served for a city its size/class with a larger passenger count than IND, MKE, RDU, CMH, CVG etc.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 3:59 am

Southwest is already sizeable in MCI, and Spirit needs a true midcon hub in a city lacking competition from the legacies. This will be the great airline slugfest of the 2020/2030s. You heard it here first.
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zrs70
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 4:10 am

If I need to travel across the country, I would rather take a short flight and a long flight than two medium flights.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 6:24 am

stl07 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I am just saying, if it was the size of ORD, it would be a Hub no matter the surrounding cities.

Tell that to BOS, they still don't have a major international hub airline.

...and yet it still manages to be one of the busiest international gateways in the country-- which supports the former point: the market is too big/powerful to ignore as a hub/gateway, despite the limited facilities and lack of a major legacy operation.


zrs70 wrote:
If I need to travel across the country, I would rather take a short flight and a long flight than two medium flights.

:checkmark:

Same for longhaul. Would MUCH rather take an 8000mi nonstop (or a 500mi + 7500mi connection) than a 4000mi +4000mi connection.
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WPvsMW
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 2:28 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Would MUCH rather take an 8000mi nonstop (or a 500mi + 7500mi connection) than a 4000mi +4000mi connection.


I think that can be generalized to all FFs. Not just body factors, but gadget overhead. Get your small eReader out on the short hop and leave your roller alone, then unleash the NC headphones, inflatable pillows, and Gogo streaming on a bigger panel to settle in for the long hop. V.v. on the return.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 2:39 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
hmmmmmmmm........


I get your point: Kansas is not in the Middle East.

My point is that the new MCI, if it offers low landing, RON, gate, and other fees, could attract a connection-centric network, probably one with right-sized (regional jet and small mainline) spokes, esp. secondary US and CA airports to the Caribbean. SY on steroids (MSP + new MCI rather than adding more service at DFW).
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EvanWSFO
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 3:01 pm

stl07 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Indy wrote:

Not sure I would agree with that. I think the proximity to other hubs for the same carrier did them in. STL too close to ORD for AA. PIT too close to PHL for US. CVG too close to DTW for DL. And MEM too close to ATL for DL. CLT is proof you can make a hub work even with a midsize market. Just need the right combination of location and market size. MCI could work if it had better facilities.

Well sure, if MCI had some unique geography that couldn't be replicated by ORD, STL, DEN, DFW or to a lesser extent CLE, CMH, CVG, IND, MSP, MKE, IAH, and DTW it could have worked. I am just saying, if it was the size of ORD, it would be a Hub no matter the surrounding cities.

Tell that to BOS, they still don't have a major international hub airline.


Say what? They may not have a dominant U.S. hub to Europe, but they have 30 international carriers, if my math is correct...it's close to that number. That's an international airport.
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itchief
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 3:54 pm

The Dallas/Ft Worth population was well below 1 million in 1972-1973. Today it is over 7 million. Kansas City itself has a smaller population today than in the early 1970's. Why did DFW area and the airport grow so much and not Kansas City? Biggest factor is Weather. Number 2 is the fact that American Airlines relocated from NYC to DFW around that time building the hub that DFW is today..
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 4:05 pm

Hubs work well when located with a bunch of spokes both long and short. Alaska has done that very well with SEA, in part because of their lock on the Alaska market. For us, AS is basically the only offering of direct flights to BOS, DC, Miami, Orlando, etc. Almost all the competition has a connection, so AS picks up a couple hundred $ extra for being direct.

MCI will do best for its O & D traffic if it has good and economical connections to DEN, DFW, ORD, ATL, and other hubs so the time and cost to fly are acceptable.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 4:16 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
The terminal didn't help , but I think MCI would have failed just as PIT, CLE, CVG, MEM, MKE did even if they resolved the terminal issues.

The airlines consolidated and needed less hubs only the strongest overall survived to be legacy hubs.

The cities listed I don't think have any one problem its the puzzle when combined they don't have enough premium travel, tourists, high fare paying last minute business travel, too close to better choices, competition, not growing fast enough etc etc. They just lack what is needed overall and it's more than O&D I think it's yield more than anything. Most lack a little in each it's not one thing why they failed and the others survived.


IMHO MCI will return as a hub when independant regionals make it a hub and a prime connecting point as no major is going back in there to compete with WN in the forseeable future.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 4:29 pm

It is a good location for a hub! However, my one and only experience of connecting flights was a nightmare! I literally got off my plane and had to connect to a MKE bound flight. I had to go through security again because it was in a different terminal. The ugly part was half my flight was connecting. The layout of that airport was just awful. It was stuffy and crammed, elbow to elbow. The ceilings were low, and it felt like being in a hospital.

If MCI had a nice layout similar to DEN for example, MCI would be a hot spot for a hub or focus city. I could see B6 jump on it.

Are they building a new terminal by chance?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
F9Animal
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 4:33 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Southwest is already sizeable in MCI, and Spirit needs a true midcon hub in a city lacking competition from the legacies. This will be the great airline slugfest of the 2020/2030s. You heard it here first.


It would also be a prime spot for a new airline to begin too. Only if they build a new terminal. Maybe all us airliner nerds can get TWA 2 up and flying?!!! LOL! I agree, it's just a matter of time before the ULCC's jump in and slug it out.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 4:44 pm

itchief wrote:
The Dallas/Ft Worth population was well below 1 million in 1972-1973. Today it is over 7 million. Kansas City itself has a smaller population today than in the early 1970's. Why did DFW area and the airport grow so much and not Kansas City? Biggest factor is Weather. Number 2 is the fact that American Airlines relocated from NYC to DFW around that time building the hub that DFW is today..


No. Not weather, not airports. It's oil and related industries that boomed Dallas, pure and simple.
It may be that lack of a reasonably usable airport can constrain growth, but an airport is not going to grow a city.
Dropping DXB into Cedar Rapids is not going to summon a large city.
 
itchief
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 4:59 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
itchief wrote:
The Dallas/Ft Worth population was well below 1 million in 1972-1973. Today it is over 7 million. Kansas City itself has a smaller population today than in the early 1970's. Why did DFW area and the airport grow so much and not Kansas City? Biggest factor is Weather. Number 2 is the fact that American Airlines relocated from NYC to DFW around that time building the hub that DFW is today..


No. Not weather, not airports. It's oil and related industries that boomed Dallas, pure and simple.
It may be that lack of a reasonably usable airport can constrain growth, but an airport is not going to grow a city.
Dropping DXB into Cedar Rapids is not going to summon a large city.


You do know that Dallas is not really a big oil town, that would be Houston, pure and simple.

When I say weather it is not airport weather, people move south for the warm weather, none of my neighbors own a snow shovel.

You need to google the economic impact of DFW Airport on this area. There is not a simple answer to the OP's question. Texas has no state income tax and has much lower taxes in general for business, property and individuals. Affordable housing is another big draw.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 5:10 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
hmmmmmmmm........


I get your point: Kansas is not in the Middle East.

My point is that the new MCI, if it offers low landing, RON, gate, and other fees, could attract a connection-centric network, probably one with right-sized (regional jet and small mainline) spokes, esp. secondary US and CA airports to the Caribbean. SY on steroids (MSP + new MCI rather than adding more service at DFW).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Count ... MAP_SY.gif

Lurking in the background could be the Amazon Aerotropolis. :D


Yes, new terminal is understood.
The future fees are unknown to me, but I'm cynical enough to believe that the funding of the new terminal is expected to be recouped completely thru increased fees, and this may serve to discourage carriers. Hopefully I'm wrong, we'll see.

For some reason, I'm convinced that the only carrier that would really grow at KCI is one to connect to currently unserved non stops, meaning smaller cities; which means smaller, higher casm aircraft.
It may be too little, too late.
 
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stl07
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 5:31 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
stl07 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Well sure, if MCI had some unique geography that couldn't be replicated by ORD, STL, DEN, DFW or to a lesser extent CLE, CMH, CVG, IND, MSP, MKE, IAH, and DTW it could have worked. I am just saying, if it was the size of ORD, it would be a Hub no matter the surrounding cities.

Tell that to BOS, they still don't have a major international hub airline.


Say what? They may not have a dominant U.S. hub to Europe, but they have 30 international carriers, if my math is correct...it's close to that number. That's an international airport.

And when did I dispute that?
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
bagoldex
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 5:45 pm

stl07 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Tell that to BOS, they still don't have a major international hub airline.


Say what? They may not have a dominant U.S. hub to Europe, but they have 30 international carriers, if my math is correct...it's close to that number. That's an international airport.

And when did I dispute that?


Boston isn’t a major hub because of its geographic location. If you transplanted Boston and its economy, institutions and population base to Kansas City it could probably support a hub close to the size of DFW. Of course most people in and around Boston would rather die of the plague than have to live in flyover country, lol.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 5:54 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Would MUCH rather take an 8000mi nonstop (or a 500mi + 7500mi connection) than a 4000mi +4000mi connection.

I think that can be generalized to all FFs.

Not so sure about that.

If you want to see for yourself, post an article about an ultra-longhaul aircraft:
You'll be able to hold your breath until someone starts whining about "OMG, I'd never want to be on a plane that long, must have stops!"



itchief wrote:
You do know that Dallas is not really a big oil town, that would be Houston, pure and simple.

Dallas is not *as large* of an oil town as Houston, but to say it's "not really a big oil town" is not realistic at all.


bagoldex wrote:
Boston isn’t a major hub because of its geographic location. If you transplanted Boston and its economy, institutions and population base to Kansas City it could probably support a hub close to the size of DFW.

Can't really untie the two, considering that location is what historically made Boston into the economic and population base that it is.

Same for New York, same for Miami, same for San Francisco, etc.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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stl07
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 6:03 pm

Has MCI really failed as a hub? They have a pretty big WN operation, something that similar cities like IND and PIT would kill for
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
itchief
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 6:49 pm

itchief wrote:
You do know that Dallas is not really a big oil town, that would be Houston, pure and simple.

Dallas is not *as large* of an oil town as Houston, but to say it's "not really a big oil town" is not realistic at all.

LAX772LR, Dallas handles a lot of $$$'s for oil with corporate headquarters, Exxon Mobil (Irving) and Energy Transfer Equity (Dallas) and Vistra Energy (Irving) but does not employ the 200,000 workers like Houston does in the oil industry.



The following are the Fortune 500 companies headquartered in the Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex:[1]

4 Exxon Mobil (Irving)
9 AT&T (Dallas)
67 American Airlines Group (Fort Worth)
79 Energy Transfer Equity (Dallas)
134 Tenet Healthcare (Dallas)
138 Southwest Airlines (Dallas)
149 Fluor Corporation (Irving)
155 Kimberly-Clark (Irving)
206 Texas Instruments (Dallas)
221 J.C. Penney (Plano)
232 D. R. Horton (Fort Worth)
259 Jacobs Engineering (Dallas)
274 HollyFrontier (Dallas)
321 GameStop (Grapevine)
351 Dean Foods (Dallas)
378 Alliance Data (Plano)
399 Yum China Holdings (Plano)
416 Dr Pepper Snapple Group (Plano)
421 Builders Firstsource (Dallas)
484 Celanese (Irving)
496 The Michaels Companies (Irving)
499 Vistra Energy (Irving)
Last edited by itchief on Sat May 05, 2018 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
phluser
Posts: 609
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Re: Why has MCI failed as a hub city?

Sat May 05, 2018 6:52 pm

stl07 wrote:
Has MCI really failed as a hub? They have a pretty big WN operation, something that similar cities like IND and PIT would kill for


Good point. List of WN destinations from Wikipedia:
Albuquerque, Austin, Atlanta, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago–Midway, Dallas–Love, Denver, Fort Lauderdale, Houston–Hobby, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Nashville, New Orleans, New York–LaGuardia, Oakland, Orlando, Phoenix–Sky Harbor, Portland (OR), Raleigh/Durham, San Antonio, Seattle/Tacoma, St. Louis, San Diego, Tampa, Washington–National
Seasonal: Fort Myers, Pensacola

I noticed that even Portland is on the list. A route that one of those good location hubs, PHL, is lacking in October. WN must be sending east-west west-east connecting pax through MCI, as there is a good variety of routes even to not so large WN stations.

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