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enilria
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OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 1:30 pm

FAQ

WHAT IS THIS REPORT?
This compares departures for sale THIS WEEK for the stated period versus what was for sale LAST WEEK...It does NOT compare to last year or now (UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED).

THE SCHEDULES SHOWN HERE CHANGE AFTER YOU POST???
-To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often---Winston Churchill. This is data the carriers filed at the point in time it was captured. It's changed since then. You are just going to have to live with it.

HOW DO I READ IT?
XXX-YYY DEC 4>5 JAN 4>5 ; means that the listed airline changed the frequency between the two airports to add from 4 to 5 roundtrips in December and January. No other months were changed. I only list one direction, although it is possible the listed change is only one way. It is too difficult to average the two directions. I assume the change is roundtrip and that is most often the case.

WHERE ARE SEATS SHOWN?
They aren't. This only shows departures.

HOW ARE THE DAILY DEPARTURES CALCULATED?
This report uses total operations for the month listed, divided over the days in the month.

WHAT ARE THE FRACTIONAL FLIGHTS?
Flights that do not operate every day of the month create fractional service. In most cases flights are rounded, but in the case of international service or markets with low frequency, fractions are shown. For example, if a flight operates 4 times in April it will show 4/30=0.133=0.1. Also , a flight that only operates once per week may vary between 0.1 and 0.2 because a weekday may repeat either 4 or 5 times depending on the month.

WHAT ABOUT CARRIERS THAT DON'T PUBLISH A SCHEDULE 9 MONTHS IN ADVANCE?
Most airlines publish schedules 11 months in advance. This report covers the next 9 months. That avoids seeing schedules as they are loaded. Several LCCs load their schedules less than 9 months into the future. I remove the schedule adds if I see them and show a year over year (YOY) comparison if I notice them.

THOSE FLIGHTS AREN'T DELTA, THEY ARE SKYWEST
This report only shows the marketing code. It is too complicated to show all the operators.

THE FREQUENCIES MAY HAVE CHANGED AS YOU SHOW, BUT THE SEATS DIDNT CHANGE BECAUSE OF EQUIPMENT SWAPS
That is a natural weakness of a frequency based report, but it provides something to discuss below.

THIS LOOKS LIKE AN ERROR?
The carriers file the schedules. They do make mistakes. Most of the mistakes I have seen are either related to code shares not being marked as "duplicates" or carriers filing flights with invalid data such as equipment codes that are not standard. This causes flights to not appear.

CHARTERS?
Lately charters have been showing up in the database. I have no idea if that will continue.

I marked some of the ones I thought were interesting with an "*".

*3M MCO-FPO JUL 1.0>0 AUG 1.0>0 SEP 0.1>0

4O LAS-GDL JUL 0.5>0.7

AA CLT-PLS AUG 1.2>1.0 SEP 0.7>0.2
AA DFW-ASE JAN 1.7>4
AA DFW-EGE JAN 1.7>3
AA DFW-GUC JAN 0.5>1.2
AA DFW-HDN JAN 0.5>1.2
AA JFK-BDA AUG 1.9>1.6 SEP 1.9>1.0
AA LAX-ASE JAN 0.5>1.2
AA MIA-EGE JAN 0.2>1.0
AA MIA-SJU SEP 6>5
AA ORD-ASE JAN 0.4>1.2
AA ORD-EGE JAN 0.2>1.0
AA ORD-FLL JAN 2>3
AA ORD-HDN JAN 0.2>1.0
AA ORD-JAC JAN 0.2>1.0
AA ORD-PBI JAN 1.0>2
*AA ORD-PEK OCT 0.8>0.6 NOV 1.0>0 DEC 1.0>0 JAN 1.0>0
AA ORD-SJU AUG 0.8>0.7 SEP 0.9>0.6
AA PHL-AUA AUG 0.7>0.5 SEP 0.7>0.3
AA PHL-BDA AUG 1.0>0.9 SEP 1.0>0.7
AA PHL-NAS AUG 1.1>0.9 SEP 0.7>0.3
AA PHL-PUJ SEP 1.2>1.0
AA PHL-SJU AUG 1.7>1.5 SEP 1.6>0.9
AA PHX-ABQ JUL 4>5
AA PHX-FLG JUL 3>4
AA PHX-MRY JUL 3>4

This is an error I'm guessing!
*AO MSN-CEB JUN 0>0.3 JUL 0>0.3 AUG 0>0.3 SEP 0>0.3 OCT 0>0.1

*AS DAL-DCA NOV 3>0 DEC 3>0 JAN 3>0
*AS DAL-LGA NOV 4>0 DEC 4>0 JAN 4>0
AS SEA-MCO SEP 1.0>1.7 OCT 1.0>1.7

AV IAD-SAL AUG 2>3 SEP 2>3 OCT 2>3 NOV 2>3 DEC 2>3 JAN 2>3

This seems like a significant cutback. Probably creating spares to fix operational problems.
B6 BOS-BWI JUL 6>5 AUG 6>5
B6 BOS-SAN JUL 3>2 AUG 3>2
B6 FLL-EWR JUL 4>3 AUG 4>3
B6 JFK-BOS JUL 7>6 AUG 6>5
B6 JFK-IAD JUL 3>1.9 AUG 3>1.9
B6 JFK-POS JUL 2>1.0 AUG 2>1.0 SEP 1.1>1.0
B6 JFK-RDU JUL 3>1.9 AUG 3>1.9
B6 JFK-SDQ JUL 6>7 AUG 6>7
B6 MCO-EWR JUL 7>6 AUG 7>6
B6 MCO-PVD JUL 2>1.0 AUG 2>1.0
B6 MCO-RIC JUL 2>1.0 AUG 2>1.0
B6 MCO-SJU JUL 6>5 AUG 6>5

CA LAX-SZX JUN 0.4>0.3 JUL 0.4>0.3 AUG 0.4>0.3 SEP 0.4>0.3 OCT 0.4>0.3

CM LAX-PTY OCT 4>3 NOV 4>3

DL ATL-AGS NOV 7>8
DL ATL-AVL OCT 8>7
DL ATL-BDA JAN 1.0>0.7
DL ATL-BNA JAN 9>10
DL ATL-BTR OCT 7>6
DL ATL-JAX SEP 12>11
DL ATL-LEX OCT 7>8
DL ATL-LIT SEP 6>7 OCT 6>7 NOV 6>7 DEC 6>7 JAN 6>7
DL ATL-MBJ SEP 3>4 OCT 3>4 NOV 3>4
DL ATL-SJD SEP 0.6>0.5 OCT 0.5>0.4 NOV 0.6>0.4
DL ATL-TLH OCT 6>7
DL BOS-FLL NOV 2>1.5
*DL BOS-PBI NOV 1.0>0.2 DEC 1.0>0.5
DL CVG-BWI NOV 1.7>3
*DL CVG-XNA AUG 0.7>0.3 OCT 0.7>0 NOV 0.7>0 JAN 0.7>0
DL DAY-MSP SEP 3>4
DL DTW-CMH SEP 6>7
DL DTW-CUN OCT 0.8>0.7
DL DTW-GRB OCT 3>4
DL DTW-GRR SEP 6>7 OCT 6>7
DL DTW-PVR JAN 0.6>0.5
DL DTW-PWM JAN 3>1.9
DL DTW-SJD JAN 0.5>0.4
DL JFK-DTW OCT 4>5
DL JFK-YYZ DEC 3>4 JAN 3>4
DL LAX-CUN JAN 2>1.7
DL LAX-SJD AUG 2>1.8
DL MCO-SDF JUL 0.1>0.0
DL MSP-CUN JAN 5>4
DL RDU-TPA DEC 1.9>3
DL SEA-MCO OCT 1.7>0.8 NOV 1.4>0.9
DL SEA-PHX SEP 3>4 OCT 3>4
DL SLC-BUR SEP 4>5 OCT 4>5
DL SLC-CUN AUG 1.0>0.8 OCT 0.4>0.3
DL SLC-PSP SEP 2.0>3 OCT 2>3

DY EWR-FCO JUN 1.0>0.9 JUL 1.0>0.8 AUG 1.0>0.9

GV BET-WTL JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4 AUG 3>4 SEP 3>4 OCT 3>4 NOV 3>4 DEC 3>4 JAN 3>4
GV KKH-KWK JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4 AUG 3>4 SEP 3>4 OCT 3>4 NOV 3>4 DEC 3>4 JAN 3>4

HA HNL-ITO SEP 17>16 OCT 17>16
HA HNL-KOA JAN 19>20
HA HNL-LIH SEP 20>19 OCT 19>18

*HX SFO-HKG NOV 0>0.6 DEC 0>0.6 JAN 0>0.5

*J2 JFK-GYD NOV 0>0.3 DEC 0>0.3 JAN 0>0.3

KS ANC-SDP JUL 0.8>0.6

LY EWR-TLV NOV 1.5>1.3 DEC 1.6>1.4 JAN 1.6>1.4

SY BOS-MSP OCT 0>1.1
SY GPT-MSP SEP 0.2>0.0
SY JFK-MSP OCT 0>3
SY LAS-MSP OCT 0>4
SY LAX-MSP OCT 0>1.5
SY MSP-PHX OCT 0>1.5
SY MSP-SFO OCT 0>1.5

UA DEN-ABQ NOV 5>4
UA DEN-BOS NOV 6>5
UA DEN-BWI NOV 2>1.1
UA DEN-DFW NOV 6>5
UA DEN-ELP NOV 5>4
UA DEN-EUG NOV 3>2
UA DEN-GEG NOV 3>2
UA DEN-IDA NOV 4>3
UA DEN-LGA NOV 7>6
UA DEN-MCI NOV 6>5
UA DEN-MSO NOV 4>3
UA DEN-MSP NOV 4>3
UA DEN-PHL NOV 1.9>3 DEC 1.8>3 JAN 1.9>3
UA DEN-RAP NOV 7>5 DEC 7>6
UA DEN-RDM NOV 3>2
UA DEN-SLC NOV 6>7
UA DEN-TUS NOV 5>4
UA DEN-YVR NOV 3>2
UA EWR-DEN NOV 8>7
UA IAD-DEN NOV 8>6 DEC 8>7
UA IAH-AMA OCT 4>3
UA IAH-DEN NOV 12>11
UA IAH-GPT NOV 3>2 DEC 3>2 JAN 3>2
UA LAX-DEN NOV 8>7
UA ORD-DEN NOV 12>11
UA SFO-DEN NOV 12>10 DEC 12>11

Took them a couple of weeks, but AUS-OKC is back (?)
VC AUS-OKC JUN 0>0.8 JUL 0>0.9 AUG 0>0.9 SEP 0>0.8 OCT 0>0.9

VS BOS-MAN OCT 0.3>0.1
VS SFO-MAN OCT 0.4>0.1

WN BWI-MSY JUL 3>4
WN DEN-AUS JUL 5>6
 
jb1087xna
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:11 am

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 1:49 pm

Thanks as always!!

enilria wrote:
*DL CVG-XNA AUG 0.7>0.3 OCT 0.7>0 NOV 0.7>0 JAN 0.7>0


Not shocked. Figured the writing was on the wall when DL down-gauged it to a CRJ last month and made it a "normal" round trip instead of pivoting to ATL/MSP to allow for a morning arrival from CVG and evening departure from XNA. The WM/P&G traffic must not be worth it any longer. And I'd much rather have DL maintain or strengthen capacity from XNA to other hubs versus stringing this along.

enilria wrote:
DL ATL-LIT SEP 6>7 OCT 6>7 NOV 6>7 DEC 6>7 JAN 6>7


Looks like an extension of the current schedule. Color me jealous that XNA can't draw a fraction of that mainline capacity.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 1:49 pm

enilria wrote:

Took them a couple of weeks, but AUS-OKC is back (?)
VC AUS-OKC JUN 0>0.8 JUL 0>0.9 AUG 0>0.9 SEP 0>0.8 OCT 0>0.9


It was a misfile. Service has been operating since a few weeks ago.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 1:53 pm

So Delta gives up the Proctor and Gamble/Walmart route (xna/cvg) I think the relationship between the two was over 10 billion last year. So that's MEM and XNA cut from CVG.
 
klm617
Posts: 4676
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 2:06 pm

jb1087xna wrote:
Thanks as always!!

enilria wrote:
*DL CVG-XNA AUG 0.7>0.3 OCT 0.7>0 NOV 0.7>0 JAN 0.7>0


Not shocked. Figured the writing was on the wall when DL down-gauged it to a CRJ last month and made it a "normal" round trip instead of pivoting to ATL/MSP to allow for a morning arrival from CVG and evening departure from XNA. The WM/P&G traffic must not be worth it any longer. And I'd much rather have DL maintain or strengthen capacity from XNA to other hubs versus stringing this along.

enilria wrote:
DL ATL-LIT SEP 6>7 OCT 6>7 NOV 6>7 DEC 6>7 JAN 6>7


Looks like an extension of the current schedule. Color me jealous that XNA can't draw a fraction of that mainline capacity.



Hopefully with XNA-CVG being dropped they will add back XNA-DTW
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
ahj2000
Posts: 1186
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 2:13 pm

*HX SFO-HKG NOV 0>0.6 DEC 0>0.6 JAN 0>0.5

*J2 JFK-GYD NOV 0>0.3 DEC 0>0.3 JAN 0>0.3

Both of these are already being flown...
-Andrés Juánez
 
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flymco753
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 2:14 pm

klm617 wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
Thanks as always!!

enilria wrote:
*DL CVG-XNA AUG 0.7>0.3 OCT 0.7>0 NOV 0.7>0 JAN 0.7>0


Not shocked. Figured the writing was on the wall when DL down-gauged it to a CRJ last month and made it a "normal" round trip instead of pivoting to ATL/MSP to allow for a morning arrival from CVG and evening departure from XNA. The WM/P&G traffic must not be worth it any longer. And I'd much rather have DL maintain or strengthen capacity from XNA to other hubs versus stringing this along.

enilria wrote:
DL ATL-LIT SEP 6>7 OCT 6>7 NOV 6>7 DEC 6>7 JAN 6>7


Looks like an extension of the current schedule. Color me jealous that XNA can't draw a fraction of that mainline capacity.



Hopefully with XNA-CVG being dropped they will add back XNA-DTW
They won’t, just like they won’t add BGR or ANC back.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 2:15 pm

Lots of UA cuts in Nov for DEN. Is this an annual, seasonal reduction?
 
cvgComair
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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 2:31 pm

jb1087xna wrote:
enilria wrote:
*DL CVG-XNA AUG 0.7>0.3 OCT 0.7>0 NOV 0.7>0 JAN 0.7>0

Not shocked. Figured the writing was on the wall when DL down-gauged it to a CRJ last month and made it a "normal" round trip instead of pivoting to ATL/MSP to allow for a morning arrival from CVG and evening departure from XNA. The WM/P&G traffic must not be worth it any longer. And I'd much rather have DL maintain or strengthen capacity from XNA to other hubs versus stringing this along.

Yep, the CRJ-700 was too much plane and the route need the AM departure/PM return in order to work. They have been trying many different schedule combinations lately in attempt to save the route, but it just didn't work out. I have heard that most of the P&G pax have been taking AA/UA through ORD instead of DL's new timing. It and MEM were a lot alike, both were casualties of the CRJ-200 reductions. BNA is also suffering as well, so I would not be surprised to see that route go as well. It makes sense for DL to use the CRJ-700/CRJ-900's on more profitable routes like they did with CVG-AUS and I would imagine routes such as CVG-SAT/JAX/MSY will come in replacement.

CVG-BNA/MEM/XNA seem like great routes for OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to pick up IMO. P&G and Kroger were pretty annoyed with Delta over the dropping of CVG-MEM, I know that both airports were working on getting the route back, however, I think that getting J1/UE would be a much more sustainable option.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14071
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 2:38 pm

cvgComair wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
enilria wrote:
*DL CVG-XNA AUG 0.7>0.3 OCT 0.7>0 NOV 0.7>0 JAN 0.7>0

Not shocked. Figured the writing was on the wall when DL down-gauged it to a CRJ last month and made it a "normal" round trip instead of pivoting to ATL/MSP to allow for a morning arrival from CVG and evening departure from XNA. The WM/P&G traffic must not be worth it any longer. And I'd much rather have DL maintain or strengthen capacity from XNA to other hubs versus stringing this along.

Yep, the CRJ-700 was too much plane and the route need the AM departure/PM return in order to work. They have been trying many different schedule combinations lately in attempt to save the route, but it just didn't work out. I have heard that most of the P&G pax have been taking AA/UA through ORD instead of DL's new timing. It and MEM were a lot alike, both were casualties of the CRJ-200 reductions. BNA is also suffering as well, so I would not be surprised to see that route go as well. It makes sense for DL to use the CRJ-700/CRJ-900's on more profitable routes like they did with CVG-AUS and I would imagine routes such as CVG-SAT/JAX/MSY will come in replacement.

CVG-BNA/MEM/XNA seem like great routes for OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to pick up IMO. P&G and Kroger were pretty annoyed with Delta over the dropping of CVG-MEM, I know that both airports were working on getting the route back, however, I think that getting J1/UE would be a much more sustainable option.


For now at least, they still need BNA to move an airplane in and out of OO maintenance.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
axiom
Posts: 871
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 2:39 pm

RDU-TPA DEC 2>3

This surprises me, especially outside of peak season. Along with MCO, this route sees seasonal mainline now. No small peas against WN's entrenched position in both markets.
 
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SANFan
Posts: 5158
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:10 am

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 2:47 pm

enilria wrote:
This seems like a significant cutback. Probably creating spares to fix operational problems.
B6 BOS-BWI JUL 6>5 AUG 6>5
B6 BOS-SAN JUL 3>2 AUG 3>2

I don't know if your comment refers to the second route listed or only the first but I have a different thought about BOS-SAN's cut.

I think Blue was expecting a move by AS this summer to double up on their SAN-BOS service -- by going daily-double -- or perhaps for DL to enter the market, but neither happened so Blue backed off. For them to cut a flight right in the middle of summer's peak season seems extremely odd. For whatever reason it was done, I'm sorry to see the cut.

By the way, Enilria, I haven't said it for a while but I do very much appreciate your effort with these weekly threads and always look forward to reading thru them every Sunday morning! Thank you.

bb
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 2:48 pm

enilria wrote:
DL CVG-BWI NOV 1.7>3

It is good to see them keeping up the high frequency even in the offseason. I am surprised they have managed to hold on this well to the route with WN, but it seems demand for both carriers is growing. Hopefully we see some larger RJ's on this route next spring/summer.
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 3:06 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
So Delta gives up the Proctor and Gamble/Walmart route (xna/cvg) I think the relationship between the two was over 10 billion last year. So that's MEM and XNA cut from CVG.

I have heard that P&G (and some other Cincinnati companies) are very annoyed with Delta at the moment. This is centered around DL dropping regional routes such as CVG-PIT/GRR/RIC/MSN/MEM/XNA that cannot be flown easily on other carriers and choosing to start IND-CDG instead of a CVG-AMS or LHR flight. While DL has been trying to grow at CVG, I think the regional hole is something that the local companies really want to fix. I have to wonder if these companies might be or will be giving incentives to OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to grow Cincinnati's regional network, much like the PIT business community did.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 3:38 pm

cvgComair wrote:
enilria wrote:
DL CVG-BWI NOV 1.7>3

It is good to see them keeping up the high frequency even in the offseason. I am surprised they have managed to hold on this well to the route with WN, but it seems demand for both carriers is growing. Hopefully we see some larger RJ's on this route next spring/summer.


Only hope for larger RJs on CVG-BWI is bigger planes on BWI-JFK as well...
From my cold, dead hands
 
jb1087xna
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:11 am

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 3:41 pm

cvgComair wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
enilria wrote:
*DL CVG-XNA AUG 0.7>0.3 OCT 0.7>0 NOV 0.7>0 JAN 0.7>0

Not shocked. Figured the writing was on the wall when DL down-gauged it to a CRJ last month and made it a "normal" round trip instead of pivoting to ATL/MSP to allow for a morning arrival from CVG and evening departure from XNA. The WM/P&G traffic must not be worth it any longer. And I'd much rather have DL maintain or strengthen capacity from XNA to other hubs versus stringing this along.

Yep, the CRJ-700 was too much plane and the route need the AM departure/PM return in order to work. They have been trying many different schedule combinations lately in attempt to save the route, but it just didn't work out. I have heard that most of the P&G pax have been taking AA/UA through ORD instead of DL's new timing. It and MEM were a lot alike, both were casualties of the CRJ-200 reductions. BNA is also suffering as well, so I would not be surprised to see that route go as well. It makes sense for DL to use the CRJ-700/CRJ-900's on more profitable routes like they did with CVG-AUS and I would imagine routes such as CVG-SAT/JAX/MSY will come in replacement.

CVG-BNA/MEM/XNA seem like great routes for OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to pick up IMO. P&G and Kroger were pretty annoyed with Delta over the dropping of CVG-MEM, I know that both airports were working on getting the route back, however, I think that getting J1/UE would be a much more sustainable option.


I honestly can't imagine the route was a money-maker for DL, at least in recent years when the CVG is a shadow of its former self.
P&G has a local office in NW Arkansas. Daily traffic between XNA and CVG purely based on P&G/WM can't have been much. If it was much, then the local office is doing something wrong.
 
777Mech
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 4:58 pm

cvgComair wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
So Delta gives up the Proctor and Gamble/Walmart route (xna/cvg) I think the relationship between the two was over 10 billion last year. So that's MEM and XNA cut from CVG.

I have heard that P&G (and some other Cincinnati companies) are very annoyed with Delta at the moment. This is centered around DL dropping regional routes such as CVG-PIT/GRR/RIC/MSN/MEM/XNA that cannot be flown easily on other carriers and choosing to start IND-CDG instead of a CVG-AMS or LHR flight. While DL has been trying to grow at CVG, I think the regional hole is something that the local companies really want to fix. I have to wonder if these companies might be or will be giving incentives to OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to grow Cincinnati's regional network, much like the PIT business community did.


If they would put the butts in the seats on the services that were offered before the cut backs, WM/P&G would still have the service levels they want. It's that simple.
 
klm617
Posts: 4676
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 4:58 pm

777Mech wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
So Delta gives up the Proctor and Gamble/Walmart route (xna/cvg) I think the relationship between the two was over 10 billion last year. So that's MEM and XNA cut from CVG.

I have heard that P&G (and some other Cincinnati companies) are very annoyed with Delta at the moment. This is centered around DL dropping regional routes such as CVG-PIT/GRR/RIC/MSN/MEM/XNA that cannot be flown easily on other carriers and choosing to start IND-CDG instead of a CVG-AMS or LHR flight. While DL has been trying to grow at CVG, I think the regional hole is something that the local companies really want to fix. I have to wonder if these companies might be or will be giving incentives to OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to grow Cincinnati's regional network, much like the PIT business community did.


If they would put the butts in the seats on the services that were offered before the cut backs, WM/P&G would still have the service levels they want. It's that simple.



c'mon this is all about wanting these folks to connect in ATL rather than offering a nonstop. When you have one flight a day on an rj what kind of flexibility is that when there are multiple dailies to chose when routing over ATL.
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SumChristianus
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 5:04 pm

klm617 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I have heard that P&G (and some other Cincinnati companies) are very annoyed with Delta at the moment. This is centered around DL dropping regional routes such as CVG-PIT/GRR/RIC/MSN/MEM/XNA that cannot be flown easily on other carriers and choosing to start IND-CDG instead of a CVG-AMS or LHR flight. While DL has been trying to grow at CVG, I think the regional hole is something that the local companies really want to fix. I have to wonder if these companies might be or will be giving incentives to OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to grow Cincinnati's regional network, much like the PIT business community did.


If they would put the butts in the seats on the services that were offered before the cut backs, WM/P&G would still have the service levels they want. It's that simple.



c'mon this is all about wanting these folks to connect in ATL rather than offering a nonstop. When you have one flight a day on an rj what kind of flexibility is that when there are multiple dailies to chose when routing over ATL.


So people freely choose the better option, an ATL connection for them to get to XNA.....a nonstop is an option, and its great to have, but here you seem to be saying that CVG-ATL-XNA is a better option for CVG-XNA passengers. Is that what you mean?

How about DTW-XNA? I'm not sure about the buisness ties, but it might do at least somewhat better than CVG with its greater coverage of the northeast and Europe.
UA DL LH NW AA --- Next IND-ATL-DEN: WN 73G/738
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SumChristianus
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 5:09 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
Lots of UA cuts in Nov for DEN. Is this an annual, seasonal reduction?


UA always seems to be cutting. Even some of their recent mainline expansions seem to have been disappearing.
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 5:15 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
777Mech wrote:

If they would put the butts in the seats on the services that were offered before the cut backs, WM/P&G would still have the service levels they want. It's that simple.



c'mon this is all about wanting these folks to connect in ATL rather than offering a nonstop. When you have one flight a day on an rj what kind of flexibility is that when there are multiple dailies to chose when routing over ATL.


So people freely choose the better option, an ATL connection for them to get to XNA.....a nonstop is an option, and its great to have, but here you seem to be saying that CVG-ATL-XNA is a better option for CVG-XNA passengers. Is that what you mean?

How about DTW-XNA? I'm not sure about the buisness ties, but it might do at least somewhat better than CVG with its greater coverage of the northeast and Europe.


Correct because there are better options but Delta wants it this way. Why not operate 3X CVG-XNA and cut the ATL capacity on the route and watch XNA-CVG thrive.
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Midwestindy
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 5:32 pm

klm617 wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:
klm617 wrote:


c'mon this is all about wanting these folks to connect in ATL rather than offering a nonstop. When you have one flight a day on an rj what kind of flexibility is that when there are multiple dailies to chose when routing over ATL.


So people freely choose the better option, an ATL connection for them to get to XNA.....a nonstop is an option, and its great to have, but here you seem to be saying that CVG-ATL-XNA is a better option for CVG-XNA passengers. Is that what you mean?

How about DTW-XNA? I'm not sure about the buisness ties, but it might do at least somewhat better than CVG with its greater coverage of the northeast and Europe.


Correct because there are better options but Delta wants it this way. Why not operate 3X CVG-XNA and cut the ATL capacity on the route and watch XNA-CVG thrive.


That’s sounds like an terrible idea
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jb1087xna
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 5:35 pm

klm617 wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:
klm617 wrote:


c'mon this is all about wanting these folks to connect in ATL rather than offering a nonstop. When you have one flight a day on an rj what kind of flexibility is that when there are multiple dailies to chose when routing over ATL.


So people freely choose the better option, an ATL connection for them to get to XNA.....a nonstop is an option, and its great to have, but here you seem to be saying that CVG-ATL-XNA is a better option for CVG-XNA passengers. Is that what you mean?

How about DTW-XNA? I'm not sure about the buisness ties, but it might do at least somewhat better than CVG with its greater coverage of the northeast and Europe.


Correct because there are better options but Delta wants it this way. Why not operate 3X CVG-XNA and cut the ATL capacity on the route and watch XNA-CVG thrive.


Not sure how XNA-CVG would thrive given the connections that ATL has over CVG. DTW maybe, but not CVG. Walmart and P&G have business ties for sure, but neither company has the travel needs to keep multiple daily flights afloat, let alone one it seems.

As for a once-daily RJ flight, not knowing the financials but only the flight's history, I'd imagine that capacity-restraint minded DL would've cut it years ago if needed.
Last edited by jb1087xna on Sun May 06, 2018 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LovePrunesAnet
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 5:37 pm

enilria wrote:
*DL CVG-XNA AUG 0.7>0.3 OCT 0.7>0 NOV 0.7>0 JAN 0.7>0


Womp womp wommmmmmmp

On the other hand, now Southwest can start that new XNA Southwest hub a few people are waiting for...with international service and Hawaii flights.
Last edited by LovePrunesAnet on Sun May 06, 2018 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 5:37 pm

777Mech wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
So Delta gives up the Proctor and Gamble/Walmart route (xna/cvg) I think the relationship between the two was over 10 billion last year. So that's MEM and XNA cut from CVG.

I have heard that P&G (and some other Cincinnati companies) are very annoyed with Delta at the moment. This is centered around DL dropping regional routes such as CVG-PIT/GRR/RIC/MSN/MEM/XNA that cannot be flown easily on other carriers and choosing to start IND-CDG instead of a CVG-AMS or LHR flight. While DL has been trying to grow at CVG, I think the regional hole is something that the local companies really want to fix. I have to wonder if these companies might be or will be giving incentives to OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to grow Cincinnati's regional network, much like the PIT business community did.

If they would put the butts in the seats on the services that were offered before the cut backs, WM/P&G would still have the service levels they want. It's that simple.

The problem with both CVG-MEM/XNA was DL eliminating the possibility for one-day trips. No business route like this can survive with a schedule like this:
15:35-16:31 CVG-XNA
17:00-19:44 XNA-CVG
This schedule turned what used to be 1-day trips between the two cities into 3 day trips.
klm617 wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:
klm617 wrote:


c'mon this is all about wanting these folks to connect in ATL rather than offering a nonstop. When you have one flight a day on an rj what kind of flexibility is that when there are multiple dailies to chose when routing over ATL.


So people freely choose the better option, an ATL connection for them to get to XNA.....a nonstop is an option, and its great to have, but here you seem to be saying that CVG-ATL-XNA is a better option for CVG-XNA passengers. Is that what you mean?

How about DTW-XNA? I'm not sure about the buisness ties, but it might do at least somewhat better than CVG with its greater coverage of the northeast and Europe.


Correct because there are better options but Delta wants it this way. Why not operate 3X CVG-XNA and cut the ATL capacity on the route and watch XNA-CVG thrive.

???. CVG could support 1x/day with proper timing, no way multiple times a day would work.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 5:42 pm

cvgComair wrote:
The problem with both CVG-MEM/XNA was DL eliminating the possibility for one-day trips. No business route like this can survive with a schedule like this:
15:35-16:31 CVG-XNA
17:00-19:44 XNA-CVG
This schedule turned what used to be 1-day trips between the two cities into 3 day trips.


True enough, though more of two day trip instead of three. Honestly seems a bit clumsy to wind it down this way instead of just pulling the plug with a decent schedule on a CR7.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 6:19 pm

klm617 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I have heard that P&G (and some other Cincinnati companies) are very annoyed with Delta at the moment. This is centered around DL dropping regional routes such as CVG-PIT/GRR/RIC/MSN/MEM/XNA that cannot be flown easily on other carriers and choosing to start IND-CDG instead of a CVG-AMS or LHR flight. While DL has been trying to grow at CVG, I think the regional hole is something that the local companies really want to fix. I have to wonder if these companies might be or will be giving incentives to OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to grow Cincinnati's regional network, much like the PIT business community did.


If they would put the butts in the seats on the services that were offered before the cut backs, WM/P&G would still have the service levels they want. It's that simple.



c'mon this is all about wanting these folks to connect in ATL rather than offering a nonstop. When you have one flight a day on an rj what kind of flexibility is that when there are multiple dailies to chose when routing over ATL.

What are you trying to say? A daily non stop and multiple dailies through ATL offers MORE flexibility than no daily non stop and multiple dailies through ATL, doesn't it?
 
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 6:24 pm

jb1087xna wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
The problem with both CVG-MEM/XNA was DL eliminating the possibility for one-day trips. No business route like this can survive with a schedule like this:
15:35-16:31 CVG-XNA
17:00-19:44 XNA-CVG
This schedule turned what used to be 1-day trips between the two cities into 3 day trips.


True enough, though more of two day trip instead of three. Honestly seems a bit clumsy to wind it down this way instead of just pulling the plug with a decent schedule on a CR7.

It appears that loads have been decreasing for the past few years anyways. Not sure why P&G/Walmart would be send so much fewer employees on the route. I think the better schedule would have helped, but it seems that it might not have been enough to save the route:

Year, Passengers, Seats, Loads
2014, 18446, 26777, 68.9%
2015, 15932, 24277, 65.6%
2016, 13450, 24486, 54.9%
2017, 12939, 31589, 40.9%

However, it does seem that the larger aircraft stopped the decline in passenger traffic that was seen on the route. If we were to adjust the load factors as if the flights were on a 50-seater, the loads would be 54% for June '17 to Dec '17. I wish we could have seen if passenger traffic would have went back up, but DL probably felt that it would have not gone back up enough.

Image
 
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 6:27 pm

Aww XNA-CVG was my favorite weird route
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 6:36 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
So Delta gives up the Proctor and Gamble/Walmart route (xna/cvg) I think the relationship between the two was over 10 billion last year. So that's MEM and XNA cut from CVG.

jb1087xna wrote:
Thanks as always!!

:)
jb1087xna wrote:
The WM/P&G traffic must not be worth it any longer.

That is what is so surprising. OneJet should dive into this ASAP.
ahj2000 wrote:
*HX SFO-HKG NOV 0>0.6 DEC 0>0.6 JAN 0>0.5

*J2 JFK-GYD NOV 0>0.3 DEC 0>0.3 JAN 0>0.3

Both of these are already being flown...

They were scheduled to "seasonally" end and were extended. HX had other USA routes schedule to "infinity", but SFO had an end date until this.
SANFan wrote:
I don't know if your comment refers to the second route listed or only the first but I have a different thought about BOS-SAN's cut.

I think Blue was expecting a move by AS this summer to double up on their SAN-BOS service -- by going daily-double -- or perhaps for DL to enter the market, but neither happened so Blue backed off. For them to cut a flight right in the middle of summer's peak season seems extremely odd. For whatever reason it was done, I'm sorry to see the cut.

By the way, Enilria, I haven't said it for a while but I do very much appreciate your effort with these weekly threads and always look forward to reading thru them every Sunday morning! Thank you.

Thanks so much.

Their changes showed they were pulling planes close in for Summer. Their performance lately has been poor. They probably decided to increase the spare count to patch things together.
SumChristianus wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
Lots of UA cuts in Nov for DEN. Is this an annual, seasonal reduction?


UA always seems to be cutting. Even some of their recent mainline expansions seem to have been disappearing.

Also because they adopted the Delta strategy of over-scheduling and then pulling back. I think they are now "worse" than DL on this.
WaywardMemphian wrote:
Delta seems hell bent to piss customers off.

It'll piss P&G off. I wonder if that will destabilize CVG. Probably not, but I hear WW is doing well there and they gave them an extra flight per week already. I'm sure P&G is a big part of their Europe traffic.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 7:18 pm

enilria wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
The WM/P&G traffic must not be worth it any longer.

That is what is so surprising. OneJet should dive into this ASAP.

I totally agree. We might not get an announcement for this until later in the year since DL doesn't discontinue the route until August, but I bet they jump on the route as soon as DL ends it.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 7:47 pm

cvgComair wrote:
777Mech wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I have heard that P&G (and some other Cincinnati companies) are very annoyed with Delta at the moment. This is centered around DL dropping regional routes such as CVG-PIT/GRR/RIC/MSN/MEM/XNA that cannot be flown easily on other carriers and choosing to start IND-CDG instead of a CVG-AMS or LHR flight. While DL has been trying to grow at CVG, I think the regional hole is something that the local companies really want to fix. I have to wonder if these companies might be or will be giving incentives to OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to grow Cincinnati's regional network, much like the PIT business community did.

If they would put the butts in the seats on the services that were offered before the cut backs, WM/P&G would still have the service levels they want. It's that simple.

The problem with both CVG-MEM/XNA was DL eliminating the possibility for one-day trips. No business route like this can survive with a schedule like this:
15:35-16:31 CVG-XNA
17:00-19:44 XNA-CVG
This schedule turned what used to be 1-day trips between the two cities into 3 day trips.
klm617 wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:

So people freely choose the better option, an ATL connection for them to get to XNA.....a nonstop is an option, and its great to have, but here you seem to be saying that CVG-ATL-XNA is a better option for CVG-XNA passengers. Is that what you mean?

How about DTW-XNA? I'm not sure about the buisness ties, but it might do at least somewhat better than CVG with its greater coverage of the northeast and Europe.


Correct because there are better options but Delta wants it this way. Why not operate 3X CVG-XNA and cut the ATL capacity on the route and watch XNA-CVG thrive.

???. CVG could support 1x/day with proper timing, no way multiple times a day would work.


cvgComair wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
The problem with both CVG-MEM/XNA was DL eliminating the possibility for one-day trips. No business route like this can survive with a schedule like this:
15:35-16:31 CVG-XNA
17:00-19:44 XNA-CVG
This schedule turned what used to be 1-day trips between the two cities into 3 day trips.


True enough, though more of two day trip instead of three. Honestly seems a bit clumsy to wind it down this way instead of just pulling the plug with a decent schedule on a CR7.

It appears that loads have been decreasing for the past few years anyways. Not sure why P&G/Walmart would be send so much fewer employees on the route. I think the better schedule would have helped, but it seems that it might not have been enough to save the route:

Year, Passengers, Seats, Loads
2014, 18446, 26777, 68.9%
2015, 15932, 24277, 65.6%
2016, 13450, 24486, 54.9%
2017, 12939, 31589, 40.9%

However, it does seem that the larger aircraft stopped the decline in passenger traffic that was seen on the route. If we were to adjust the load factors as if the flights were on a 50-seater, the loads would be 54% for June '17 to Dec '17. I wish we could have seen if passenger traffic would have went back up, but DL probably felt that it would have not gone back up enough.

Image


CVG-XNA demand is pretty tiny, I think the LFs are more of a resemblance to the drop in connecting pax. Back in 2015, at most there were 17 O&D pax a day. In 2017, at most there were 21 O&D pax. So therefore O&D on this route has increased but connections have decreased.

The amount of pax connecting through other airports to get to either CVG or XNA is tiny as well. For Q4 (largest months of travel between CVG-XNA) around 3 pax connected through ORD, and around 3 connected through ATL
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cvgComair
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 8:42 pm

777Mech wrote:
If they would put the butts in the seats on the services that were offered before the cut backs, WM/P&G would still have the service levels they want. It's that simple.

klm617 wrote:
Correct because there are better options but Delta wants it this way. Why not operate 3X CVG-XNA and cut the ATL capacity on the route and watch XNA-CVG thrive.

Midwestindy wrote:
CVG-XNA demand is pretty tiny, I think the LFs are more of a resemblance to the drop in connecting pax. Back in 2015, at most there were 17 O&D pax a day. In 2017, at most there were 21 O&D pax. So therefore O&D on this route has increased but connections have decreased.

The amount of pax connecting through other airports to get to either CVG or XNA is tiny as well. For Q4 (largest months of travel between CVG-XNA) around 3 pax connected through ORD, and around 3 connected through ATL

Given the increasing PDEW, CVG's demand is not the issue on the route. KLM's argument does have a fair point. Just using PDEW values, the demand to DL's hubs is:
NYC: 112-179 (split amongst three carriers)
ATL: 70-81
MSP: 28-31
CVG: 15-21
DTW: 12-19

Then compare this data to the connecting routes from the NE to XNA in Delta's network. So if the connecting passengers are really to blame, that is DL's fault alone. It can be seen pretty clearly that shoving these passengers through ATL is very out of the way:

Image

This is actually a perfect example of Delta pushing connections through ATL and not using other hubs effectively. Sure CVG isn't connected to many smaller airports in the NE, but the demand from those to XNA is pretty much 0. Also, CVG has gained seats to the northeast since 2015, so there is no reason that connections should be decreasing on the route unless DL is purposely routing pax through ATL instead.
 
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 9:46 pm

DTW-XNA isn’t happening...neither is BGR, ANC, or SJO.
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klm617
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 10:11 pm

cvgComair wrote:
777Mech wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I have heard that P&G (and some other Cincinnati companies) are very annoyed with Delta at the moment. This is centered around DL dropping regional routes such as CVG-PIT/GRR/RIC/MSN/MEM/XNA that cannot be flown easily on other carriers and choosing to start IND-CDG instead of a CVG-AMS or LHR flight. While DL has been trying to grow at CVG, I think the regional hole is something that the local companies really want to fix. I have to wonder if these companies might be or will be giving incentives to OneJet/Ultimate Air Shuttle to grow Cincinnati's regional network, much like the PIT business community did.

If they would put the butts in the seats on the services that were offered before the cut backs, WM/P&G would still have the service levels they want. It's that simple.

The problem with both CVG-MEM/XNA was DL eliminating the possibility for one-day trips. No business route like this can survive with a schedule like this:
15:35-16:31 CVG-XNA
17:00-19:44 XNA-CVG
This schedule turned what used to be 1-day trips between the two cities into 3 day trips.
klm617 wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:

So people freely choose the better option, an ATL connection for them to get to XNA.....a nonstop is an option, and its great to have, but here you seem to be saying that CVG-ATL-XNA is a better option for CVG-XNA passengers. Is that what you mean?

How about DTW-XNA? I'm not sure about the buisness ties, but it might do at least somewhat better than CVG with its greater coverage of the northeast and Europe.


Correct because there are better options but Delta wants it this way. Why not operate 3X CVG-XNA and cut the ATL capacity on the route and watch XNA-CVG thrive.

???. CVG could support 1x/day with proper timing, no way multiple times a day would work.


The best you could do is a over night trip from XNA to CVG the route should have been flown once in the morning or once at night those are horrible times for business travelers who is going to take that flight so if you want to make a day trip in either direction guess what connection in Atlanta.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 10:55 pm

How many of you actually travel for business? This notion of same day trips of the much lauded “business traveler” is so overplayed and overhyped on a.net especially in markets where is doesn’t really exist.

I travel fairly extensively for work, and know or observe the executives that travel and they don’t do same day travel.

Outside of a handful of the biggest cities where hotel prices can be obscene or you are talking about top level executives you don’t see that behavior much. Even for a single day of business most people will travel in the day prior.

XNA is not a day trip type of market. And guess what, some of the biggest drivers of business travel in and out of XNA are actually many of the consultancies and technology implementation firms that are doing a lot of M-TH or M-F weekly commutes to and from their home offices.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 11:08 pm

cvgComair wrote:
This is actually a perfect example of Delta pushing connections through ATL and not using other hubs effectively. Sure CVG isn't connected to many smaller airports in the NE, but the demand from those to XNA is pretty much 0. Also, CVG has gained seats to the northeast since 2015, so there is no reason that connections should be decreasing on the route unless DL is purposely routing pax through ATL instead.


CVG is no longer a "hub" though, so it doesn't really make sense to take away connecting pax from ATL and move them over to CVG just to make 1 route work.
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Midwestindy
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 11:18 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
How many of you actually travel for business? This notion of same day trips of the much lauded “business traveler” is so overplayed and overhyped on a.net especially in markets where is doesn’t really exist.

I travel fairly extensively for work, and know or observe the executives that travel and they don’t do same day travel.

Outside of a handful of the biggest cities where hotel prices can be obscene or you are talking about top level executives you don’t see that behavior much. Even for a single day of business most people will travel in the day prior.

XNA is not a day trip type of market. And guess what, some of the biggest drivers of business travel in and out of XNA are actually many of the consultancies and technology implementation firms that are doing a lot of M-TH or M-F weekly commutes to and from their home offices.


I travel for work almost weekly and I can say there is definitely a mix of both, I have a lot of trips leaving at 5am/6am and returning at 5pm-8pm in the evening. I sometimes have to fly out the evening before for an early morning meeting so it just depends. Although, it I have noticed on this forum that a lot of people think the bulk of biz travelers are doing day trips (which is not the case).


cvgComair wrote:
This is actually a perfect example of Delta pushing connections through ATL and not using other hubs effectively. Sure CVG isn't connected to many smaller airports in the NE, but the demand from those to XNA is pretty much 0. Also, CVG has gained seats to the northeast since 2015, so there is no reason that connections should be decreasing on the route unless DL is purposely routing pax through ATL instead.


CVG is no longer a "hub" though, so it doesn't really make sense to take away connecting pax from ATL and move them over to CVG just to make 1 route work.
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SgtBarone
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 11:22 pm

Same-day roundtrip business travel is pretty exhausting, and most of the time my clients (corporations) book me a room at the hotel nearest to their office. They will rarely, if ever, expect me to be in and out same-day. For example, If I have a morning meeting, I’ll usually fly-in the evening before, have dinner and relax, and get prepared. Then I’ll fly out in the afternoon after the meeting.
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Sun May 06, 2018 11:36 pm

The armchair airline CEO’s on this website have absolutely no idea what they’re talking about when it comes down to right-sizing an operation to maximize profitability - that’s the end game of every airline - period. The airline industry is and always will be, inherently fluid based upon a multitude of factors. Those of us with real experience and knowledge are always beat-up in posts because we don’t agree that Pan Am isn’t flying a 747-300SP with radial engines from Frankfurt to Brisbane via Little Rock because it makes sense on flight simulator due to fuel burn or simulated winds, or because we offer a real-world explanation as to why Delta doesn’t fly the Concorde five times daily between XNA and JFK.

I challenge any of these armchair CEO’s to call up Revenue Management, Fleet Planning, Schedule Planning or any other department with knowledge and know-how and ask them the same insane questions they’ve posted regarding XNA. They’d say: “Oh, you’re calling from airliners dot net? You have NO idea what goes on here!”

Enilria’s posts are always informative.

The quality of this site has gone tremendously downhill since the inception of free membership and lack of moderation.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Mon May 07, 2018 12:19 am

some nice pickups by DTW and once again AS cuts more
 
Cubsrule
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Mon May 07, 2018 12:22 am

Midwestindy wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
How many of you actually travel for business? This notion of same day trips of the much lauded “business traveler” is so overplayed and overhyped on a.net especially in markets where is doesn’t really exist.

I travel fairly extensively for work, and know or observe the executives that travel and they don’t do same day travel.

Outside of a handful of the biggest cities where hotel prices can be obscene or you are talking about top level executives you don’t see that behavior much. Even for a single day of business most people will travel in the day prior.

XNA is not a day trip type of market. And guess what, some of the biggest drivers of business travel in and out of XNA are actually many of the consultancies and technology implementation firms that are doing a lot of M-TH or M-F weekly commutes to and from their home offices.


I travel for work almost weekly and I can say there is definitely a mix of both, I have a lot of trips leaving at 5am/6am and returning at 5pm-8pm in the evening. I sometimes have to fly out the evening before for an early morning meeting so it just depends. Although, it I have noticed on this forum that a lot of people think the bulk of biz travelers are doing day trips (which is not the case).


Same here. It largely depends on timing of my business and geography. But I have plenty of 1:00 meetings, and if those are in places like Chicago, New York, or Dallas that aren't that far and have many flights, I may well go the morning of. Day trips that involve distances over about 1,000 miles and/or require a connection are tough and I try to avoid those.

cvgComair wrote:
This is actually a perfect example of Delta pushing connections through ATL and not using other hubs effectively. Sure CVG isn't connected to many smaller airports in the NE, but the demand from those to XNA is pretty much 0. Also, CVG has gained seats to the northeast since 2015, so there is no reason that connections should be decreasing on the route unless DL is purposely routing pax through ATL instead.


Because the gauge is so much bigger, and CASM is thus lower, at ATL, using ATL may actually be more cost-effective despite the more circuitous routings.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Mon May 07, 2018 12:54 am

RetiredNWA wrote:
The quality of this site has gone tremendously downhill since the inception of free membership and lack of moderation.

That's true, but there were always a lot of "kids" who didn't know what they were doing on here, although that's fine as long as they don't think at 16 years old they know how an airline works beyond the superficial. A.net is a great place to learn a lot. There's probably a lot more to learn on here than there is in an aviation degree, but separating the wheat from the chaff is impossible for a youngster and there's a lot of both on a.net.
RetiredNWA wrote:
Enilria’s posts are always informative.

Thanks :)
Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
How many of you actually travel for business? This notion of same day trips of the much lauded “business traveler” is so overplayed and overhyped on a.net especially in markets where is doesn’t really exist.

I travel fairly extensively for work, and know or observe the executives that travel and they don’t do same day travel.

Outside of a handful of the biggest cities where hotel prices can be obscene or you are talking about top level executives you don’t see that behavior much. Even for a single day of business most people will travel in the day prior.

XNA is not a day trip type of market. And guess what, some of the biggest drivers of business travel in and out of XNA are actually many of the consultancies and technology implementation firms that are doing a lot of M-TH or M-F weekly commutes to and from their home offices.


I travel for work almost weekly and I can say there is definitely a mix of both, I have a lot of trips leaving at 5am/6am and returning at 5pm-8pm in the evening. I sometimes have to fly out the evening before for an early morning meeting so it just depends. Although, it I have noticed on this forum that a lot of people think the bulk of biz travelers are doing day trips (which is not the case).


Same here. It largely depends on timing of my business and geography. But I have plenty of 1:00 meetings, and if those are in places like Chicago, New York, or Dallas that aren't that far and have many flights, I may well go the morning of. Day trips that involve distances over about 1,000 miles and/or require a connection are tough and I try to avoid those.

cvgComair wrote:
This is actually a perfect example of Delta pushing connections through ATL and not using other hubs effectively. Sure CVG isn't connected to many smaller airports in the NE, but the demand from those to XNA is pretty much 0. Also, CVG has gained seats to the northeast since 2015, so there is no reason that connections should be decreasing on the route unless DL is purposely routing pax through ATL instead.


Because the gauge is so much bigger, and CASM is thus lower, at ATL, using ATL may actually be more cost-effective despite the more circuitous routings.

I thought this would be a slow weak, but XNA is apparently near and dear to a lot of people's hearts.
 
SunsetLimited
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Mon May 07, 2018 1:08 am

Passed through XNA on a Jefferson Lines coach from Texarkana to Kansas City a few months back.

More development than I expected in the area. Still, the air service it has is likely not to change all that much in the foreseeable future. It’s well connected, for the most part.

By the way, enilria - these threads are a Sunday morning tradition for me. Much appreciated.
Spread hope like fire.
 
cvgComair
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Mon May 07, 2018 1:08 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Because the gauge is so much bigger, and CASM is thus lower, at ATL, using ATL may actually be more cost-effective despite the more circuitous routings.

Good point. I'm sorry to overblow the CVG-XNA discussion on here, looks like this is getting way more involved than I anticipated. The route is pretty meaningless to CVG, let alone Delta's overall network. DL is growing at CVG, so I am happy, even if it means some expected cuts such as this route.
 
StuckInCA
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Mon May 07, 2018 1:21 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
How many of you actually travel for business? This notion of same day trips of the much lauded “business traveler” is so overplayed and overhyped on a.net especially in markets where is doesn’t really exist.

I travel fairly extensively for work, and know or observe the executives that travel and they don’t do same day travel.

Outside of a handful of the biggest cities where hotel prices can be obscene or you are talking about top level executives you don’t see that behavior much. Even for a single day of business most people will travel in the day prior.

XNA is not a day trip type of market. And guess what, some of the biggest drivers of business travel in and out of XNA are actually many of the consultancies and technology implementation firms that are doing a lot of M-TH or M-F weekly commutes to and from their home offices.


There's plenty of same-day travel for business on the west coast. SAN, anything in the Los Angeles area, Silicon Valley, Portland, Seattle.... all very realistic to connect for a meeting or two in a same-day trip. You can include Boise, SLC and others too.
 
G500Captain
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Mon May 07, 2018 1:44 am

I also didn’t realize XNA has such a committed fan group. Maybe Walmart will have to start their own airline based at XNA of course.
Every time I get on an airliner, I’m reminded why I have a job.
 
TYSflyer
Posts: 258
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Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Mon May 07, 2018 1:55 am

[/quote]
I thought this would be a slow weak, but XNA is apparently near and dear to a lot of people's hearts.[/quote]

Haha, I was thinking the same thing. I think 90% of the comments have been about the dropping of this route. For me it interests me not so much about XNA but more about CVG. This route is a relic of the once powerful DL hub at CVG, and it only lasted as long as it did because of the uniqueness of XNA business market. I still have memories of flying through CVG in the hub’s heyday and being number 9 for takeoff. Unfortunately, seeing another route out of CVG bite the dust is just a bit bitter for me. Btw, thanks as always for the Sunday morning updates. I was just wondering the other day how long have you been doing these? I have been following them it seems like for years.
 
LovePrunesAnet
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:04 am

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Mon May 07, 2018 1:56 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
How many of you actually travel for business? This notion of same day trips of the much lauded “business traveler” is so overplayed and overhyped on a.net especially in markets where is doesn’t really exist.

I travel fairly extensively for work, and know or observe the executives that travel and they don’t do same day travel.

Outside of a handful of the biggest cities where hotel prices can be obscene or you are talking about top level executives you don’t see that behavior much. Even for a single day of business most people will travel in the day prior.

XNA is not a day trip type of market. And guess what, some of the biggest drivers of business travel in and out of XNA are actually many of the consultancies and technology implementation firms that are doing a lot of M-TH or M-F weekly commutes to and from their home offices.


just because you don't travel that pattern and the individuals you interact with on a plane don't do a same day turnaround doesn't mean that's not the way many others of us do. Same day flights in and out for a meeting for business or not limited to " a handful of cities."

plenty of people in business have to fly into places for a meeting or presentation and they're done after a couple of hours. while there are some who will love XNA and the surrounding area many others are preferring to get back to their sophistication and comfort of Home same day. or really any biz trip, but I know from my historical trips there the less time spent in XNA the better
 
LovePrunesAnet
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:04 am

Re: OAG Changes 5/6/2018:DL Drops CVG-XNA; 3M Drops MCO-FPO

Mon May 07, 2018 2:01 am

RetiredNWA wrote:
The armchair airline CEO’s on this website have absolutely no idea what they’re talking about when it comes down to right-sizing an operation to maximize profitability - that’s the end game of every airline - period. The airline industry is and always will be, inherently fluid based upon a multitude of factors. Those of us with real experience and knowledge are always beat-up in posts because we don’t agree that Pan Am isn’t flying a 747-300SP with radial engines from Frankfurt to Brisbane via Little Rock because it makes sense on flight simulator due to fuel burn or simulated winds, or because we offer a real-world explanation as to why Delta doesn’t fly the Concorde five times daily between XNA and JFK.

I challenge any of these armchair CEO’s to call up Revenue Management, Fleet Planning, Schedule Planning or any other department with knowledge and know-how and ask them the same insane questions they’ve posted regarding XNA. They’d say: “Oh, you’re calling from airliners dot net? You have NO idea what goes on here!”

Enilria’s posts are always informative.

The quality of this site has gone tremendously downhill since the inception of free membership and lack of moderation.


THANKS
AMEN, , I agree, you nailed it, especially this particular airport on a.net. good Lord.

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