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DL747400
Posts: 657
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:53 am

grbauc wrote:
OR run DAL like SNA does to make sure the best options are happening rather then airlines controlling the situation.


Come one... This is the City of Dallas we're talking about here!
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 2677
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:53 pm

Here is a map of what WN's nonstop routes out of DAL could look like in 2025 if WN serves more than just DAL in the DFW Metroplex in 2025:
Image
 
klakzky123
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:18 pm

DL747400 wrote:
grbauc wrote:
OR run DAL like SNA does to make sure the best options are happening rather then airlines controlling the situation.


Come one... This is the City of Dallas we're talking about here!


Politicians in Houston and Dallas have been in WN's thumb for years. It's pretty disgusting how bad it is.
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 678
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:38 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
grbauc wrote:
OR run DAL like SNA does to make sure the best options are happening rather then airlines controlling the situation.


Come one... This is the City of Dallas we're talking about here!


Politicians in Houston and Dallas have been in WN's thumb for years. It's pretty disgusting how bad it is.


Genuinely curious how this is so. Do you have any examples? Is this exclusive to WN or do other airlines have political influence in cities where they have a large presence (like Delta in Atlanta)?
 
bob75013
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:33 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
grbauc wrote:
OR run DAL like SNA does to make sure the best options are happening rather then airlines controlling the situation.


Come one... This is the City of Dallas we're talking about here!


Politicians in Houston and Dallas have been in WN's thumb for years. It's pretty disgusting how bad it is.


Oh please let's have a reality check.

If Dallas had been under WN's thumb, we'd have a 40 gate Love Field with international flights now.

Now if you want to talk about thumbs and AA, that's a different story.
 
Okie
Posts: 4019
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:07 am

bob75013 wrote:
Oh please let's have a reality check.If Dallas had been under WN's thumb, we'd have a 40 gate Love Field with international flights now.Now if you want to talk about thumbs and AA, that's a different story.


Exactly.

Dallas and DFW both have problems here. If you figure the average 5% annual growth rate for air travel and 2025 before any agreement stemming from the WA can be changed.
DAL is basically at full saturation for flights and passenger capacity and is going to only increase by using larger airframes not more flights.

********
DFW is not going to generate 35 or so gates out of thin air for WN if they moved to DFW.
DAL is trapped at 20 gates.
There are other options for commercial airports in the Metroplex.

********
The real question is who is going to blink and try to compete for WN's business.
DAL/City of Dallas is at a handicap because they can not change the WA before 2025.
That gives a lot of options to other players trying to compete for WN's business.
If you estimate 5 years or so to construct a facility the decisssion of WN may be made as early as 2020 if WN chooses to move.
********


Okie
 
klakzky123
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:13 am

bob75013 wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:

Come one... This is the City of Dallas we're talking about here!


Politicians in Houston and Dallas have been in WN's thumb for years. It's pretty disgusting how bad it is.


Oh please let's have a reality check.

If Dallas had been under WN's thumb, we'd have a 40 gate Love Field with international flights now.

Now if you want to talk about thumbs and AA, that's a different story.


If the Wright Amendment didn't exist, then I'd agree. The issue is that AA also has quite a bit of political power in DFW. If there's no Wright Amendment, then I'm sure WN would have happily expanded DAL with international flights (like they did with HOU). Their issue in Dallas is that AA has its own entrenched base of support in Fort Worth and DFW and since everyone is party to the current DAL arrangement, WN really has limited ability to influence policy.

For broader reference, lets not forget how WN helped torpedo the original Dallas-Houston high speed rail in the 90s (which eventually was to expand to Austin and San Antonio). Its widely reported on that the original French TGV plan in Texas was torpedoed by WN because it was a direct shot at WN's business model at the time. That posed a huge threat to WN intra Texas flying and was promptly ruined thanks to some smart lobbying of politicians in Houston and Dallas in the legislature. And WN more recently bowled over UA in Houston when Hobby was expanded (and international flying was opened). I agree with WN in that instance but their political power is quite powerful in Houston and Dallas.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:33 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
For broader reference, lets not forget how WN helped torpedo the original Dallas-Houston high speed rail in the 90s (which eventually was to expand to Austin and San Antonio). Its widely reported on that the original French TGV plan in Texas was torpedoed by WN because it was a direct shot at WN's business model at the time. That posed a huge threat to WN intra Texas flying and was promptly ruined thanks to some smart lobbying of politicians in Houston and Dallas in the legislature.


There will still be some demand for WN DAL-HOU nonstop service after the Texas Central high-speed rail is completed between Dallas and Houston for the following reasons:
  • While the completion of the Dallas to Houston high-speed rail line will decrease O&D demand for WN DAL-HOU nonstop service, there will still be some O&D demand for DAL-HOU nonstop service subsequent to the completion of the Dallas to Houston high-speed rail line.
  • There will still be some passengers flying to HOU from DAL on WN in order to connect to CRP, HRL, JAX, and international destinations, and this will continue to be the case after the completion of the Dallas to Houston high-speed rail line.
  • There will still be some passengers flying to DAL from HOU on WN in order to connect to AMA, LIT, and LBB, even though there would be fewer passengers doing so if WN brings back HOU-AMA and HOU-LIT nonstop service and if WN brings back HOU-LBB nonstop service on a year-round basis.

The Dallas to Houston high-speed rail line is not as big of a threat to WN's business at DAL as it was 20 years ago since the Wright Amendment has been repealed and since WN can expand to places such as BUF, CVG, CLE, SDF, MSP, and TUS from DAL if WN further reduces frequency on DAL-HOU nonstop service.
 
klakzky123
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:47 pm

jplatts wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
For broader reference, lets not forget how WN helped torpedo the original Dallas-Houston high speed rail in the 90s (which eventually was to expand to Austin and San Antonio). Its widely reported on that the original French TGV plan in Texas was torpedoed by WN because it was a direct shot at WN's business model at the time. That posed a huge threat to WN intra Texas flying and was promptly ruined thanks to some smart lobbying of politicians in Houston and Dallas in the legislature.


There will still be some demand for WN DAL-HOU nonstop service after the Texas Central high-speed rail is completed between Dallas and Houston for the following reasons:
  • While the completion of the Dallas to Houston high-speed rail line will decrease O&D demand for WN DAL-HOU nonstop service, there will still be some O&D demand for DAL-HOU nonstop service subsequent to the completion of the Dallas to Houston high-speed rail line.
  • There will still be some passengers flying to HOU from DAL on WN in order to connect to CRP, HRL, JAX, and international destinations, and this will continue to be the case after the completion of the Dallas to Houston high-speed rail line.
  • There will still be some passengers flying to DAL from HOU on WN in order to connect to AMA, LIT, and LBB, even though there would be fewer passengers doing so if WN brings back HOU-AMA and HOU-LIT nonstop service and if WN brings back HOU-LBB nonstop service on a year-round basis.

The Dallas to Houston high-speed rail line is not as big of a threat to WN's business at DAL as it was 20 years ago since the Wright Amendment has been repealed and since WN can expand to places such as BUF, CVG, CLE, SDF, MSP, and TUS from DAL if WN further reduces frequency on DAL-HOU nonstop service.


WN is a lot more diversified today than it was in the 90s. The 90s opposition was because the original TGV line in Texas was going to connect Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin which was a threat to the heart of WN's business at the time.

The modern high speed line proposal only involves Houston to Dallas and WN is in a much stronger position. And franlky, the Texas government today is so anti-rail that there's a good chance it never happens anyway. But in the 90s, Democrats still controlled state government and that resulted in a much more friendly government for large infrastructure projects. Texas was supposed to be the model for high speed rail because it is largely flat between major cities which made it the cheapest area at the time to launch a comprehensive high speed network.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:11 pm

klakzky123 wrote:

If the Wright Amendment didn't exist, then I'd agree. The issue is that AA also has quite a bit of political power in DFW. If there's no Wright Amendment, then I'm sure WN would have happily expanded DAL with international flights (like they did with HOU). Their issue in Dallas is that AA has its own entrenched base of support in Fort Worth and DFW and since everyone is party to the current DAL arrangement, WN really has limited ability to influence policy.

.


The WARA provision the requires WN to give up a DAL gate for every non DAL gate it uses in the Metroplex goes away in 2024.

Thus, WN will expand in the metroplex in 2024 and there is nothing AA, DFW, Ft. Worth or Dallas can do to stop WN. WARA was designed to prevent WN from getting too big at DAL. Starting in 2024 WN will get bigger, the only question is where it will expand.

Dallas will have a choice of being on WN's side in an effort to expand DAL, or risk WN expanding to Mecham or McKinney or (I hope not) DFW and taking it's revenue with it. Personally, I would like to see WN expand at both McKinney and Mecham, and won't that cause a great deal of heartburn at DFW, AA, and Ft. Worth.
 
cjpark
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:55 pm

airplaneboy wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:

Come one... This is the City of Dallas we're talking about here!


Politicians in Houston and Dallas have been in WN's thumb for years. It's pretty disgusting how bad it is.


Genuinely curious how this is so. Do you have any examples? Is this exclusive to WN or do other airlines have political influence in cities where they have a large presence (like Delta in Atlanta)?


This article might refresh your memory. Yes there is and has been collusion between the City of Dallas Aviation Department and the City Council.

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/104021 ... -in-dallas
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
bob75013
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:31 pm

cjpark wrote:
airplaneboy wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:

Politicians in Houston and Dallas have been in WN's thumb for years. It's pretty disgusting how bad it is.


Genuinely curious how this is so. Do you have any examples? Is this exclusive to WN or do other airlines have political influence in cities where they have a large presence (like Delta in Atlanta)?


This article might refresh your memory. Yes there is and has been collusion between the City of Dallas Aviation Department and the City Council.

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/104021 ... -in-dallas


The city council, telling the aviation department what to do, is hardly collusion. After all the aviation department reports to the city council. The city council tells the aviation department what to do.
-
You can't do better than a 12 year old article that predates WARA?
 
ScottB
Posts: 6595
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:12 pm

jplatts wrote:
Subsection (b) of Section 3 of Article I of the 5-party agreement says that "If the existing carriers are not able or are not willing to accommodate the new entrant service, then the City of Dallas agrees to require the sharing of preferential lease gates, pursuant to Dallas' existing lease agreements", and this was agreed to by both the City of Dallas and Southwest Airlines 12 years ago.

The City of Dallas clearly has authority under the 5-party agreement and the WARA to require Southwest Airlines to share its gates with other airlines if necessary, and this authority even applies to the 16 preferential use gates that WN directly leases from the City of Dallas.


Except that you are ignoring a key phrase of that section: "pursuant to Dallas' existing lease agreements." The lease agreements only permit the city to force sharing of preferential lease gates if the lessee fails to meet a utilization standard of ten daily turns per gate. WN operates 180 daily turns from their 18 gates so by the terms of the lease, their gates are considered fully-utilized.
 
cjpark
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Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:22 am

bob75013 wrote:
The city council, telling the aviation department what to do, is hardly collusion. After all the aviation department reports to the city council. The city council tells the aviation department what to do.
-
You can't do better than a 12 year old article that predates WARA?


Regardless of what you think of my source landing fees at Love Field were kept artificially low for too long. The first paragraph points out that landing fees at the airport had not changed since 1987? The airport was operating at a deficit. The city council only raised the landing fees enough to make sure it did not cost Southwest more than a million dollars a year. From 1987 to 2006 the landing fee at DAL was .35/1000lbs. When they raised the landing fee it only increased to .55/1000lbs. Airlines at DFW paid $4.94/1000lbs.

Dallas County and City politicians play at corruption as a contact sport. Draw your own conclusions.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 678
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:09 am

cjpark wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
The city council, telling the aviation department what to do, is hardly collusion. After all the aviation department reports to the city council. The city council tells the aviation department what to do.
-
You can't do better than a 12 year old article that predates WARA?


Regardless of what you think of my source landing fees at Love Field were kept artificially low for too long. The first paragraph points out that landing fees at the airport had not changed since 1987? The airport was operating at a deficit. The city council only raised the landing fees enough to make sure it did not cost Southwest more than a million dollars a year. From 1987 to 2006 the landing fee at DAL was .35/1000lbs. When they raised the landing fee it only increased to .55/1000lbs. Airlines at DFW paid $4.94/1000lbs.

Dallas County and City politicians play at corruption as a contact sport. Draw your own conclusions.


And those airlines operating at DFW during that time could have operated at DAL paying the same, much lower landing fees as WN provided they were willing to operate within the limits of the Wright Amendment. Why didn’t other airlines show more interest in DAL at that time when there were plenty of available gates? The city realized (in my opinion) that the limitations of the Wright Amendment made airline service at DAL unattractive and in order to keep the service that they then had from WN, it would be beneficial for them to help WN keep its operating costs there low as well.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:45 pm

cjpark wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
The city council, telling the aviation department what to do, is hardly collusion. After all the aviation department reports to the city council. The city council tells the aviation department what to do.
-
You can't do better than a 12 year old article that predates WARA?


Regardless of what you think of my source landing fees at Love Field were kept artificially low for too long. The first paragraph points out that landing fees at the airport had not changed since 1987? The airport was operating at a deficit. The city council only raised the landing fees enough to make sure it did not cost Southwest more than a million dollars a year. From 1987 to 2006 the landing fee at DAL was .35/1000lbs. When they raised the landing fee it only increased to .55/1000lbs. Airlines at DFW paid $4.94/1000lbs.

Dallas County and City politicians play at corruption as a contact sport. Draw your own conclusions.


4.94 per 1000 pounds at DFW bought occupants a people mover, multiple terminals, multiple parking garages, a centrally located rent car facility, 7 runways et all
.55 per 1000 pounds at DAL bought occupants a dumpy old 1960's era terminal and what?

Any attempt to equate DFW fees with DAL fees is foolish -- but that's you.

Airports aren't profit centers. They're meant to break even. They exist for the citizens of the area, and governments do what it takes to keep them vibrant. If thatmeans keeping fees low to keep utilization high (even if it means losing a SMALL bit of money) that's what they do.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:05 pm

airplaneboy wrote:
And those airlines operating at DFW during that time could have operated at DAL paying the same, much lower landing fees as WN provided they were willing to operate within the limits of the Wright Amendment. Why didn’t other airlines show more interest in DAL at that time when there were plenty of available gates? The city realized (in my opinion) that the limitations of the Wright Amendment made airline service at DAL unattractive and in order to keep the service that they then had from WN, it would be beneficial for them to help WN keep its operating costs there low as well.


I agreed that the limitations of the Wright Amendment made airline service at DAL unattractive for airlines other than WN. IAH was also the only legacy carrier hub airport that could be served nonstop from DAL on planes with more than 56 seats under the original Wright Amendment restrictions. The through-ticketing restrictions of the Wright Amendment also originally prohibited CO from selling connecting service from DAL destinations that could not be served nonstop from DAL through IAH if CO operated planes with more than 56 seats on any of its DAL-IAH nonstop flights. However, the enactment of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 did allow CO (and UA subsequent to the UA-CO merger) to fly larger regional jets or mainline aircraft on its DAL-IAH nonstop flights without being subject to through-ticketing restrictions of the Wright Amendment.

While the Wright Amendment deterred most carriers other than WN from serving DAL, MC did serve DAL in the 1980's, DL did operate regional jets with 56 or fewer seats between DAL and ATL prior to the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and LC operated DC-9 planes with 56 seats out of DAL prior to LC going out of business in 2001.

Most of the non-legacy domestic airlines that were in existence at one point or another during the Wright Amendment era, including FL, HP, TZ, F9, SI, B6, ML, YX, KN, NY, PE, NK, SY, and NJ, did not serve DAL due to Wright Amendment restrictions that were in effect prior to 2014. However, many of these non-legacy domestic airlines did serve DFW at one point or another, and F9, B6, NK, and SY also still serve DFW. FL also merged with WN prior to the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and WN now serves some of the former FL destinations nonstop from DAL.
 
ScottB
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:58 pm

cjpark wrote:
Regardless of what you think of my source landing fees at Love Field were kept artificially low for too long. The first paragraph points out that landing fees at the airport had not changed since 1987? The airport was operating at a deficit. The city council only raised the landing fees enough to make sure it did not cost Southwest more than a million dollars a year. From 1987 to 2006 the landing fee at DAL was .35/1000lbs. When they raised the landing fee it only increased to .55/1000lbs. Airlines at DFW paid $4.94/1000lbs.


The airport was operating at a deficit in FY05 and FY06, but it had operated with a similarly large surplus in both FY03 & FY04. The money in the City's Aviation Enterprise Fund can't be used for other purposes; it has to be used for the airports. And it's not as if the city was tapping into its general fund to pay for the airport -- the Aviation Enterprise Fund had a surplus of nearly $11 million in mid-2005.

Lower landing fees at DAL, particularly in comparison to DFW, aren't necessarily indicative of the city subsidizing Southwest. They're probably more indicative of how bloated and inefficient the DFW operation is and was, especially considering how the airport has virtually zero accountability to the taxpayers.
 
evank516
Posts: 1944
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:42 pm

airplaneboy wrote:
cjpark wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
The city council, telling the aviation department what to do, is hardly collusion. After all the aviation department reports to the city council. The city council tells the aviation department what to do.
-
You can't do better than a 12 year old article that predates WARA?


Regardless of what you think of my source landing fees at Love Field were kept artificially low for too long. The first paragraph points out that landing fees at the airport had not changed since 1987? The airport was operating at a deficit. The city council only raised the landing fees enough to make sure it did not cost Southwest more than a million dollars a year. From 1987 to 2006 the landing fee at DAL was .35/1000lbs. When they raised the landing fee it only increased to .55/1000lbs. Airlines at DFW paid $4.94/1000lbs.

Dallas County and City politicians play at corruption as a contact sport. Draw your own conclusions.


And those airlines operating at DFW during that time could have operated at DAL paying the same, much lower landing fees as WN provided they were willing to operate within the limits of the Wright Amendment. Why didn’t other airlines show more interest in DAL at that time when there were plenty of available gates? The city realized (in my opinion) that the limitations of the Wright Amendment made airline service at DAL unattractive and in order to keep the service that they then had from WN, it would be beneficial for them to help WN keep its operating costs there low as well.


I think other airlines gave it a try. DL actually flew ATL-DAL with CRJs back in the early 2000s, they left and came back in 2009 (via NW) with MEM-DAL flights, switching them to ATL not long after on RJs until the 56 seat rule was gone when they switched to mainline. Let's not forget that DL has been in DAL since before the Wright was completely gone.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:47 pm

evank516 wrote:




I think other airlines gave it a try. DL actually flew ATL-DAL with CRJs back in the early 2000s, they left and came back in 2009 (via NW) with MEM-DAL flights, switching them to ATL not long after on RJs until the 56 seat rule was gone when they switched to mainline. Let's not forget that DL has been in DAL since before the Wright was completely gone.


As were CO and AA. The low fees benefited more than just WN.
 
evank516
Posts: 1944
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:10 pm

bob75013 wrote:
evank516 wrote:




I think other airlines gave it a try. DL actually flew ATL-DAL with CRJs back in the early 2000s, they left and came back in 2009 (via NW) with MEM-DAL flights, switching them to ATL not long after on RJs until the 56 seat rule was gone when they switched to mainline. Let's not forget that DL has been in DAL since before the Wright was completely gone.


As were CO and AA. The low fees benefited more than just WN.


Exactly, so the person I quoted saying that those airlines operating at DFW could have also flown to DAL needs to know that they actually did.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:44 pm

Back in the 1970's, there were plans to build 13 terminals at DFW Airport, but only 5 of the 13 originally planned terminals were built at DFW. There are still plans to build Terminal F at DFW, which was originally planned as Terminal 4W. DFW Airport could also revive plans to build a terminal north of Terminal B, which was originally planned as Terminal 1W back in the 1970's, in order to accommodate WN at DFW in 2025.

Here is a picture of what DFW was originally planned to look like back in 2001:
Image
DFW Airport in 2001 by Noah Jeppson, on Flickr
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:21 pm

With all of this talk of DL wanting to build up AUS, perhaps they (DL) can get back at WN for trying to force them out at DAL by preventing them from getting more gates at AUS.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:54 pm

jplatts wrote:
Here is a picture of what DFW was originally planned to look like back in 2001:
Image
DFW Airport in 2001 by Noah Jeppson, on Flickr


So, it the top of the picture the north end of the airport heading towards SH 114 and the bottom of the pic the south heading towards 183? Because I'm trying to picture how they'd even expand beyond eight terminals given the way the airport is currently set up.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:14 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
So, it the top of the picture the north end of the airport heading towards SH 114 and the bottom of the pic the south heading towards 183? Because I'm trying to picture how they'd even expand beyond eight terminals given the way the airport is currently set up.


The top of the picture is the north end of the airport heading towards SH 114, and the bottom of the picture is the south end heading towards SH 183.

Here are the 13 proposed terminals shown in this picture, from north (top) to south (bottom):
  • Terminals 0W and 0E - both never built
  • Terminal 1W (where the Express North parking lot is currently located) and Terminal 1E (where AA Cargo and AA Ground Gervices Equipment facilities are located) - both never built
  • Terminal 2W (now Terminal B) and Terminal 2E (now Terminal A) - both built
  • Terminal 3W (now Terminal D, but built with a different design than originally planned) and Terminal 3E (now Terminal C) - both built
  • Terminal 4W (current location of Express South parking lot, still proposed to be built as Terminal F) and Terminal 4E (now Terminal E) - Terminal E built, Terminal F still planned to be built
  • Terminal 5W (will be designated as Terminal H if ever built) and Terminal 5E (will be designated as Terminal G if ever built) - both never built
  • Terminal 6E - never built
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:33 pm

There are 4 airports in the U.S. that carry more domestic passengers per year than DFW does, and 3 of these 4 airports are already served by WN.

Here is the number of passengers per year for DFW and the 4 U.S. airports that carry more domestic passengers per year than DFW does:
ATL - 89,455,000 (WN focus city)
ORD - 65,092,000 (not served by WN)
LAX - 58,940,000 (WN focus city)
DEN - 57,674,000 (WN focus city)
DFW - 56,222,000 (not served by WN)

In my opinion, WN can likely do well at DFW if it starts service out of DFW in addition to DAL. WN actually also has focus cities at ATL, LAX, and DEN, all of which carry more domestic passengers per year than DFW does. WN can also significantly expand its operations in the Metroplex by starting service out of DFW, whereas WN would still have limited room to expand at DAL if the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 are amended to allow expansion of DAL beyond its current 20-gate limit. WN establishing a 2nd focus city in the DFW Metroplex in addition to its DAL home base is not out of the realm of possibility since WN also has focus cities at both OAK and SJC in the San Francisco Bay Area. WN also can operate nonstop international flights out of DFW, something that it cannot do out of DAL under WARA and at other airports in the DFW Metroplex under the 5-party agreement.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:42 pm

jplatts wrote:
There are 4 airports in the U.S. that carry more domestic passengers per year than DFW does, and 3 of these 4 airports are already served by WN.

Here is the number of passengers per year for DFW and the 4 U.S. airports that carry more domestic passengers per year than DFW does:
ATL - 89,455,000 (WN focus city)
ORD - 65,092,000 (not served by WN)
LAX - 58,940,000 (WN focus city)
DEN - 57,674,000 (WN focus city)
DFW - 56,222,000 (not served by WN)

In my opinion, WN can likely do well at DFW if it starts service out of DFW in addition to DAL. WN actually also has focus cities at ATL, LAX, and DEN, all of which carry more domestic passengers per year than DFW does. WN can also significantly expand its operations in the Metroplex by starting service out of DFW, whereas WN would still have limited room to expand at DAL if the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 are amended to allow expansion of DAL beyond its current 20-gate limit. WN establishing a 2nd focus city in the DFW Metroplex in addition to its DAL home base is not out of the realm of possibility since WN also has focus cities at both OAK and SJC in the San Francisco Bay Area. WN also can operate nonstop international flights out of DFW, something that it cannot do out of DAL under WARA and at other airports in the DFW Metroplex under the 5-party agreement.


Perhaps you could explain what that has to do with a thread entitled "Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates" ...

After all, YOU started the thread. One would think you would stay on topic in your own thread
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:04 am

bob75013 wrote:
In my opinion, WN can likely do well at DFW if it starts service out of DFW in addition to DAL. WN actually also has focus cities at ATL, LAX, and DEN, all of which carry more domestic passengers per year than DFW does. WN can also significantly expand its operations in the Metroplex by starting service out of DFW, whereas WN would still have limited room to expand at DAL if the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 are amended to allow expansion of DAL beyond its current 20-gate limit. WN establishing a 2nd focus city in the DFW Metroplex in addition to its DAL home base is not out of the realm of possibility since WN also has focus cities at both OAK and SJC in the San Francisco Bay Area. WN also can operate nonstop international flights out of DFW, something that it cannot do out of DAL under WARA and at other airports in the DFW Metroplex under the 5-party agreement.


Perhaps you could explain what that has to do with a thread entitled "Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates" ...[/quote]

WN's insistence of serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex along with the WN-FL merger and WN's entry into additional markets subsequent to the enactment of WARA all contributed to the WN-DL fight over DAL gates. The situation at DAL would likely have been much better if WN had started service out of DFW instead of serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex. WN currently has to give up some of its gates at DAL if it starts service out of DAL prior to 2025 under the 5-party agreement, whereas DL and AS can add more flights out of DFW without having to give up gates at DAL.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:12 am

jplatts wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
In my opinion, WN can likely do well at DFW if it starts service out of DFW in addition to DAL. WN actually also has focus cities at ATL, LAX, and DEN, all of which carry more domestic passengers per year than DFW does. WN can also significantly expand its operations in the Metroplex by starting service out of DFW, whereas WN would still have limited room to expand at DAL if the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 are amended to allow expansion of DAL beyond its current 20-gate limit. WN establishing a 2nd focus city in the DFW Metroplex in addition to its DAL home base is not out of the realm of possibility since WN also has focus cities at both OAK and SJC in the San Francisco Bay Area. WN also can operate nonstop international flights out of DFW, something that it cannot do out of DAL under WARA and at other airports in the DFW Metroplex under the 5-party agreement.


Perhaps you could explain what that has to do with a thread entitled "Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates" ...


WN's insistence of serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex along with the WN-FL merger and WN's entry into additional markets subsequent to the enactment of WARA all contributed to the WN-DL fight over DAL gates. The situation at DAL would likely have been much better if WN had started service out of DFW instead of serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex. WN currently has to give up some of its gates at DAL if it starts service out of DAL prior to 2025 under the 5-party agreement, whereas DL and AS can add more flights out of DFW without having to give up gates at DAL.[/quote]

So again, you post stuff here that has nothing do do with the thread. Don't you understand that you are running a bait and switch operation. People come here to read about resolution of the Love Field situation, and instead are subject to drivel that has nothing to do with that topic.

If you want to talk about WN flying out of DFW, then you should start a thread about it.

That nonsense has no business here.
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:59 pm

There will be room for another carrier to share gates at DAL with AS once AS discontinues DAL-LGA and DAL-DCA nonstop service. Is the extra capacity out of the AS gates at DAL being reserved for AA re-entry into DAL in April 2024 when AA can regain access to the 2 gates at DAL, or is the City of Dallas planning on making the extra capacity available for new entrants?

Of the existing potential new entrants who could share gates with AS at DAL, only HA and G4 do not currently serve either DFW or DAL. All of the other existing potential new entrants who could start service out of DAL already serve DFW.

While HA does not currently serve either DFW or DAL, HA could be accommodated at DAL if HA had narrowbody aircraft with the range to reach DAL nonstop from HNL or if DAL had gates that were capable of accommodating widebody aircraft. However, it is very likely that HA will go to DFW if HA plans on starting service out of the DFW Metroplex.

G4 is not currently at either DFW or DAL, but G4 is planning on starting service out of FTW once FTW is opened up to commercial passenger air service.

There will be enough room for F9 to be accommodated out of DAL with the discontinuation of AS DAL-LGA and DAL-DCA nonstop service. However, F9 is already at DFW, and F9 is also already considering serving FTW once FTW is opened up to commercial passenger air service.

B6 had considered serving DAL 12 years ago if the Wright Amendment was fully repealed back in 2006, but B6 ended up starting service out of DFW 6 years ago instead. There will be enough room at DAL to accommodate B6, but B6 is already at DFW.

NK and SY are both already at DFW, and most of the destinations that NK serves nonstop out of DFW are also already served nonstop out of DAL on WN. NK and SY also both operate a few nonstop international routes out of DFW, and the WARA prohibits nonstop international commercial passenger service out of DAL.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:10 pm

jplatts wrote:
While HA does not currently serve either DFW or DAL, HA could be accommodated at DAL if HA had narrowbody aircraft with the range to reach DAL nonstop from HNL or if DAL had gates that were capable of accommodating widebody aircraft. However, it is very likely that HA will go to DFW if HA plans on starting service out of the DFW Metroplex.


I doubt HA would fly to HNL from DAL. It's not a business route that would benefit from being closer to downtown Dallas, it's a leisure route that would benefit from being located closer to the center of the D/FW metroplex at DFW. Also DFW has longer runways that would allow HA save wear and tear on their engines for flights to HNL compared to DAL.
 
sccutler
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:10 pm

grbauc wrote:

...I think they should’ve close that airport down DAL years ago, but did it hence the thing we have now.


You're joking, right?

Utterly apart from airline service, Dallas Love Field is a critical airport to the area, employing many thousands. It was a vital airport even when DFW was new and we had only minute service from the infant Southwest, and it was a viable and important airport in the city's plans even when they believed (and intended) that there be no air carrier service at DAL.

News flash: Most airports in the US have no airline service.

grbauc wrote:
Southwest doesn’t need the protections like they needed before when they were smaller younger airline, was there a reason they can’t also run at DFW now?

Is it in the public interest to let Southwest airlines control all gates at Dallas love at this point in time?


Only if the gate limit remains in place.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:21 pm

While HA does not currently serve either DFW or DAL, HA could be accommodated at DAL if HA had narrowbody aircraft with the range to reach DAL nonstop from HNL............................. it does not

or if DAL had gates that were capable of accommodating widebody aircraft........................ it does not


what is the point of discussing impossibilities?
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:33 pm

bob75013 wrote:
While HA does not currently serve either DFW or DAL, HA could be accommodated at DAL if HA had narrowbody aircraft with the range to reach DAL nonstop from HNL............................. it does not

or if DAL had gates that were capable of accommodating widebody aircraft........................ it does not

what is the point of discussing impossibilities?


HA could be accommodated at DAL under the new entrant carrier provisions of the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 if DAL had gates capable of accommodating widebody aircraft or if HA had narrowbody aircraft that had the range to reach DAL nonstop from HNL. While HA would start service out of DFW instead of DAL if it adds service to the DFW Metroplex, I was mentioning HA as an example of a new entrant that could be accommodated at DAL under the new entrant carrier provisions of the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act if DAL had either widebody gates or HA had narrowbody aircraft that could reach DAL nonstop from Hawaii.

While WN, AA, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, and the DFW International Airport Board intended to accommodate domestic competitors at DAL when the 5-party agreement was signed 12 years ago, the 5 parties did not intend to require accommodation of domestic commercial passenger air service that could only be served nonstop from DAL on widebody aircraft out of the passenger terminal at DAL. The terminal at DAL was designed to accommodate planes longer than the 737-700 since AA was planning on serving DAL subsequent to the repeal of the Wright Amendment and since AA was operating narrowbody planes longer than the 737-700 such as the MD-80 and 737-800 on domestic routes at the time that the current DAL terminal was designed.

The 737 MAX 7, 737-800, 737 MAX 8, 737-900ER, 737 MAX 9, 737 MAX 10, A320ceo, A320neo, A321ceo, and A321neo are all longer than the 737-700 but shorter than the MD-80, and the gates at DAL can accommodate narrowbody planes that are as big as the A321. The upcoming A321LR plane might have the range to reach DAL nonstop from HNL since DAL is 3795 miles from HNL whereas the range of the A321LR is 4600 miles, and the gates at DAL can accommodate the A321LR planes.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:13 pm

jplatts wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
While HA does not currently serve either DFW or DAL, HA could be accommodated at DAL if HA had narrowbody aircraft with the range to reach DAL nonstop from HNL............................. it does not

or if DAL had gates that were capable of accommodating widebody aircraft........................ it does not

what is the point of discussing impossibilities?


HA could be accommodated at DAL under the new entrant carrier provisions of the 5-party agreement



Again, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the reason this thread is in existence "Dallas has a plan to..."
 
milemaster
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:40 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
With all of this talk of DL wanting to build up AUS, perhaps they (DL) can get back at WN for trying to force them out at DAL by preventing them from getting more gates at AUS.


"Get back at" ?
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:54 pm

jplatts wrote:
There will be room for another carrier to share gates at DAL with AS once AS discontinues DAL-LGA and DAL-DCA nonstop service.


Or not.

If I'm Brad Tilden, I'm renting a dumpster and parking it at one of those gates permanently just to ensure DL can't use it. :duck:
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
superjeff
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:54 pm

WN's insistence of serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex along with the WN-FL merger and WN's entry into additional markets subsequent to the enactment of WARA all contributed to the WN-DL fight over DAL gates. The situation at DAL would likely have been much better if WN had started service out of DFW instead of serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex. WN currently has to give up some of its gates at DAL if it starts service out of DAL prior to 2025 under the 5-party agreement, whereas DL and AS can add more flights out of DFW without having to give up gates at DAL.[/quote]

Only problem is that Southwest has 18 gates out of 20; Alaska has 2 out of 20 (subleased from AA), and Delta has to scrounge for gates.

But I agree; how does this relate to a proposed solution as per the name of this thread?
 
ADrum23
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:37 pm

milemaster wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
With all of this talk of DL wanting to build up AUS, perhaps they (DL) can get back at WN for trying to force them out at DAL by preventing them from getting more gates at AUS.


"Get back at" ?


Yes. Get back at meaning get revenge. If DL really wants to expand AUS into a focus city (which we don’t know for sure yet if they do), then they could get back at WN by preventing them from getting more gates at AUS by taking over the entire eastern extension. If WN wants to play hardball at DAL, DL could easily do the same at AUS.
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:40 pm

superjeff wrote:
jplatts wrote:
WN's insistence of serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex along with the WN-FL merger and WN's entry into additional markets subsequent to the enactment of WARA all contributed to the WN-DL fight over DAL gates. The situation at DAL would likely have been much better if WN had started service out of DFW instead of serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex. WN currently has to give up some of its gates at DAL if it starts service out of DAL prior to 2025 under the 5-party agreement, whereas DL and AS can add more flights out of DFW without having to give up gates at DAL.


Only problem is that Southwest has 18 gates out of 20; Alaska has 2 out of 20 (subleased from AA), and Delta has to scrounge for gates.

But I agree; how does this relate to a proposed solution as per the name of this thread?


The factors contributing to the WN-DL gate fight at DAL relate to a proposed solution since DAL is limited to 20 gates under the WARA, since DL insists on permanent accommodation of at least its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service at DAL, since the demand for WN service out of DAL is greater than was expected back in 2006 when the 5-party agreement was negotiated, and since at least 18 of the 20 gates at DAL are already fully utilized. The 20-gate limit at DAL, full utilization of at least 18 of the 20 gates at DAL, DL's insistence of permanent accommodation of its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service, and greater than expected demand for WN service out of DAL make it difficult for the city of Dallas to propose a solution to the WN-DL gate fight that will satisfy the needs of those traveling to or from Dallas.
 
superjeff
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:05 pm

jplatts wrote:
superjeff wrote:
jplatts wrote:
WN's insistence of serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex along with the WN-FL merger and WN's entry into additional markets subsequent to the enactment of WARA all contributed to the WN-DL fight over DAL gates. The situation at DAL would likely have been much better if WN had started service out of DFW instead of serving only DAL in the DFW Metroplex. WN currently has to give up some of its gates at DAL if it starts service out of DAL prior to 2025 under the 5-party agreement, whereas DL and AS can add more flights out of DFW without having to give up gates at DAL.


Only problem is that Southwest has 18 gates out of 20; Alaska has 2 out of 20 (subleased from AA), and Delta has to scrounge for gates.

But I agree; how does this relate to a proposed solution as per the name of this thread?

,
The factors contributing to the WN-DL gate fight at DAL relate to a proposed solution since DAL is limited to 20 gates under the WARA, since DL insists on permanent accommodation of at least its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service at DAL, since the demand for WN service out of DAL is greater than was expected back in 2006 when the 5-party agreement was negotiated, and since at least 18 of the 20 gates at DAL are already fully utilized. The 20-gate limit at DAL, full utilization of at least 18 of the 20 gates at DAL, DL's insistence of permanent accommodation of its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service, and greater than expected demand for WN service out of DAL make it difficult for the city of Dallas to propose a solution to the WN-DL gate fight that will satisfy the needs of those traveling to or from Dallas.



The solution is to dump the Wright Amendment (as currently in effect), allow construction of another ten gates, either attached to the current terminal, or in a second terminal off Lemmon Avenue where the old Legend Terminal was located, or repurpose the old Braniff Maintenance Base. That would solve the problem, and DAL has adequate ability to take the additional gates and traffic; back when DAL was the main area airport they were handling 747's, DC10's, L1011's, including flights to Hawaii on full 747s. Today's planes are quieter, and I think that when DFW opened in 1974, they had about 44 gates open at DAL.

This is about a couple of things: Fort Worth's ego, and Dallas' wanting to help Southwest. The old Dallas-Fort Worth rivalry still exists.
 
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par13del
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:20 pm

superjeff wrote:
The solution is to dump the Wright Amendment (as currently in effect), allow construction of another ten gates, either attached to the current terminal, or in a second terminal off Lemmon Avenue where the old Legend Terminal was located, or repurpose the old Braniff Maintenance Base.

To be pedantic....how does that:
1. Punish WN for not moving to DFW when opened like all other carriers who were at DAL at the time
2. Punish WN for initiating the court case that gave them the right to stay at DAL
3. How does that recoup the funds invested in DFW that has to be recouped for the investors in DFW

I know the answers to all the above, I only raise them because any thought or notion to put more gates at DAL is going to run into those who are stuck on those points, and no, I am not one of those who believe that the original WA was put in place to protect WN.
 
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fanoftristars
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:36 pm

I’m at Love Field now. The Delta ground agents say that southwest regularly delays their flights at gate 15 and their on time perfmance is dramatically affected by how many late southwest flights push off of gate 15. I have personally had this happen 3 times in 3 months. One time we waited 45 min for a delayed Southwest flight. Today we are late again today because of a late Southwest flight. Isn’t there any recourse for Delta?
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:03 pm

fanoftristars wrote:
I’m at Love Field now. The Delta ground agents say that southwest regularly delays their flights at gate 15 and their on time perfmance is dramatically affected by how many late southwest flights push off of gate 15. I have personally had this happen 3 times in 3 months. One time we waited 45 min for a delayed Southwest flight. Today we are late again today because of a late Southwest flight. Isn’t there any recourse for Delta?


There are at least 6 other gates at DAL (gates 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20) that could be used by DL at DAL when Gate 15 is in use by WN. The situation regarding gate 15 at DAL could be resolved by allowing DL to use gate 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20 instead of Gate 15 at DAL when Gate 15 is in use by WN. Allowing DL to use gate 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20 at DAL whenever gate 15 is in use by WN would minimize delays on DL's DAL-ATL nonstops if one of these alternate gates is available for use at DAL by allowing DL's ATL-DAL nonstop flights to arrive at an alternate gate.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:08 am

I thought Alaska was adding 5 flights to DAL from the west coast once LGA/DCA goes away.
xx
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:31 am

usxguy wrote:
I thought Alaska was adding 5 flights to DAL to the west coast once LGA/DCA goes away.


Here is the current breakdown of AS service out of DAL: 4x LGA, 3x SFO, 3x LAX, 3x DCA, 2x SEA, 1x PDX, 1x SJC, 1x SAN

Here is the breakdown for AS service out of DAL in June 2019: 3x SFO, 3x LAX, 2x SEA, 2x PDX, 2x SJC, 1x SAN

AS will have fewer nonstops out of DAL after it discontinues DAL-LGA and DAL-DCA nonstop service, even with the increased frequencies on AS's DAL-PDX and DAL-SJC nonstops.
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:40 pm

There was an article titled "Delta and Southwest Squabble Over Love Field Gates" that was published on the D Magazine website today, and that article can be found at https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-ceo/2018/august/delta-and-southwest-squabble-over-love-field-gates/.

Today's D Magazine article said that "Without an end to constraints on additional gates and flights, he [Judge Ed Kinkeade] said, 'Dallas will continue to face dilemmas like this one.' Two years later, the judge’s free-market approach remains an idea whose time has not yet come."
 
ADrum23
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:42 pm

Question.

Can the Sherman Antitrust Act (or some other anti-monopoly legislation) be invoked and the 5 party agreement be declared invalid by the federal courts? I don't understand why DL and others can't contest the agreement on antitrust grounds.
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:40 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Question.

Can the Sherman Antitrust Act (or some other anti-monopoly legislation) be invoked and the 5 party agreement be declared invalid by the federal courts? I don't understand why DL and others can't contest the agreement on antitrust grounds.


Even if DL and others can get the 5-party agreement invalidated by the federal courts, DAL would still be subject to the 20-gate limit under Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 unless Congress amends or repeals Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:47 am

jplatts wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Question.

Can the Sherman Antitrust Act (or some other anti-monopoly legislation) be invoked and the 5 party agreement be declared invalid by the federal courts? I don't understand why DL and others can't contest the agreement on antitrust grounds.


Even if DL and others can get the 5-party agreement invalidated by the federal courts, DAL would still be subject to the 20-gate limit under Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 unless Congress amends or repeals Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006.


Is not the 5 party agreement the basis of the Wright Amendment Reform Act? That is what I meant the federal courts could strike down, the Wright Amendment Reform Act on antitrust grounds.
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