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EA CO AS
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 5:01 am

LAXtoATL wrote:
I’ll admit I have no idea what the market share numbers, but considering AS had a virtual monopoly in SEA and DL has set up a very large hub operation from basically nothing in the last 10 years, Delta has to taken share from somebody and who else could it come from other than AS?


Check out the stats for 2013 vs. 2018 and you'll see:

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?pn=1

02/12 - 01/13:

AS: 39.34%
QX: 12.91%
DL: 10.26%
UA: 10.20%
WN: 9.67%


02/17 - 01/18:

AS: 40.91%
DL: 15.33%
QX: 9.00%
WN: 7.60%
UA: 7.08%


DL's growth is impressive, no doubt, but you'll note that AS actually grew slightly, and while QX ceded share due to higher gauge AS mainline flying, OO taking over flying in some markets, and pulling Q400s out of service, UA lost over 3 full points, and WN lost just over 2 points.

DL's growth at SEA has come at the expense of WN and UA.

Now, with AS/QX controlling anywhere from 49% to 51% of the market from year to year, that's certainly nowhere near a "monopoly." You want monopolies? Fortress hubs? Think ATL, IAH, DFW - those are true fortress hubs.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 11:35 am

ricport wrote:
kalvado wrote:
ricport wrote:
What many on here seem to forget is that DAL is a unique animal, due to the Wright Amendment and subsequent legislation. The current DAL situation is the result of a nonstop series of stupidity. Wright was bad law and should have never been allowed to see the light of day. The DAL terminal should have been bulldozed the day DFW opened, and DAL should be a general aviation airport.

But, since neither of those happened, we’re left with WN being both victim and bully. Wright unfairly constrained WN (primarily) at DAL, but they have also gone above and beyond to maintain an ersatz monopoly there. Wright and all subsequent legislation needs to be eradicated immediately, once and for all. Barring that, if the Dallas powers that be had any backbone and weren’t in Gary’s pocket, they’d simply pass a law stating that no carrier can have more than 70% of traffic at DAL. That would shut the door once and for all on WN’s behavior and would allow competition to really have an opportunity to flourish. I wonder if NK or F9 made a real run at DAL if it might knock the almighty WN from their high horse?

I still wonder if you consider DAL and DFW the same market?
If yes, this is the same market - then 100% single operator at DAL is a non-issue, as DFW is just a few miles away.
If no, those are separate markets - then we need criminal investigation into conspiracy of limiting city of Dallas access to air service. And you may be somewhat guilty here due to talking about bulldozing the terminal.
No, you cannot have the cake and eat it too. This is a "yes" or "no" question.


Ridiculous. first, had you read my entire post, you'd have seen I actually support first and foremost lifting Wright (and successors) to allow access to DAL to whoever wants it. I'm merely saying that if the pols don't have the backbone to do that, they should at least ensure all other carriers have fair access to DAL. WN doesn't own DAL. Thus, the city has an obligation to protect citizens against an unfair monopoly (i.e., antitrust).

If DAL & DFW are in the same market, why not just bulldoze DAL & mandate WN move to DFW (which has the space to accommodate/could be built on to accommodate WN? Daley did worse to Meigs Field... And if they're not, then why isn't WN's overwhelming presence at DAL a virtual monopoly?


If DFW and DAL are truly separate markets, then the following should have happened:
  • Immediate repeal of the Wright Amendment
  • The 20-gate limit should not have been imposed (at least without opening up another airport that is closer to Downtown Dallas than DFW is to commercial passenger air service)
  • DL, NW, UA, and US should have been accommodated at DAL in addition to WN, AA, and CO
  • Additional gates should have been constructed at DAL to accommodate DL, NW, UA, and US

DFW and DAL are in the same market for the following reasons:
  • DFW and DAL are both located in the DFW Metroplex and the Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington MSA.
  • The DOT Domestic Airline Consumer Airfare Report considers DFW and DAL to be in the same market.
  • Even though DAL is located in of the City of Dallas and even though DAL is closer to Downtown Dallas than DFW is, there are many travelers going to destinations in the city of Dallas or its suburbs who fly into DFW, and there are many residents in the city of Dallas and its suburbs who fly out of DFW.
  • While DFW is much closer to the city of Fort Worth than DAL is, there are some Fort Worth residents who fly out of DAL on WN, and there are some travelers going to Fort Worth that fly into DAL on WN.
  • Even though WN's home base has always been at Dallas Love Field, WN used to market DAL as Dallas/Fort Worth in the very early days of its operation prior to the opening of DFW International Airport.
  • AA, WN, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, and the DFW International Airport Board agreed to the restrictions contained within the 5-party agreement almost 12 years ago on the assumption that DFW and DAL are both in the same market.
  • Demand for AA service out of DFW has been increasing since the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and is still continuing to increase. NK has also added DFW-CLE, DFW-PIT, and DFW-SEA nonstop service since the repeal of the Wright Amendment. F9 has also added DFW-CVG nonstop service since the repeal of the Wright Amendment.
 
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par13del
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 11:43 am

jplatts wrote:
[*]Demand for AA service out of DFW has been increasing since the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and is still continuing to increase.[/list]

Hmmmmm.....waiting for the WA supporters to say that this is a result of the additional restrictions placed on growth at DAL in 1.....2.....3.....
 
superjeff
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 12:12 pm

freakyrat wrote:
Folks the Dallas Love terminal is constrained for space unless you actually want to close down Rwy 18/36 and expand the terminal west towards the runup ramp. To the east you have the new parking garage and the Southwest provisions building plus Gulfstream Aerospace. There is simply no room to expand beyond the 20 gates.






Clearly not true. Love previously had as many as 40+ gates. Even more recently, Legend built a terminal off of Marsh Lane with six gates (near the old Braniff maintenance base). There is certainly room for another 10-15 gates without any risk
 
superjeff
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 12:12 pm

freakyrat wrote:
Folks the Dallas Love terminal is constrained for space unless you actually want to close down Rwy 18/36 and expand the terminal west towards the runup ramp. To the east you have the new parking garage and the Southwest provisions building plus Gulfstream Aerospace. There is simply no room to expand beyond the 20 gates.






Clearly not true. Love previously had as many as 40+ gates. Even more recently, Legend built a terminal off of Marsh Lane with six gates (near the old Braniff maintenance base). There is certainly room for another 10-15 gates without any risk
 
osupoke07
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 12:28 pm

superjeff wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
Folks the Dallas Love terminal is constrained for space unless you actually want to close down Rwy 18/36 and expand the terminal west towards the runup ramp. To the east you have the new parking garage and the Southwest provisions building plus Gulfstream Aerospace. There is simply no room to expand beyond the 20 gates.






Clearly not true. Love previously had as many as 40+ gates. Even more recently, Legend built a terminal off of Marsh Lane with six gates (near the old Braniff maintenance base). There is certainly room for another 10-15 gates without any risk


Yup. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dalla ... 96.8512063

There's clearly room to expand the terminal to the northwest.
MD82, MD83, MD88, B717, B732, B733, B735, B737, B738, B739, B752, B763, B77W, CR2, CR7, CR9, A320
 
blueflyer
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 12:52 pm

osupoke07 wrote:
For a trip down memory lane, here is a presentation on the City of Dallas' website regarding the AA divestiture and Dallas' attempt to identify who Dallas should favor to win the AA gates.

The city's aviation department has been pro Southwest for years. City Hall, including the council itself, has been pro more-airlines for about as long, egged on by the flying public. To the extent that City Hall gets to tell the aviation dept what to do, their instructions are unequivocal: when this is all over, Delta must stay!

I think all this plan does is kick the can down the road for three years though...

ADrum23 wrote:
Lift all the remaining restrictions at Love Field (including the ban on international flights) and allow the airlines to build as many gates as they are willing to pay for or is physically possible.

Wishes upon a star for more gates are just that, wishes, however it simply is not going to happen for a very long time. Even if Congress somehow repeals the Wright Amendment Reform Act, the parties to the repeal agreement (cities of Dallas and Ft Worth, American, Southwest and United née Continental) are also contractually bound by its terms. Neither of the three airlines can build more gates at the airport, and while the city of Dallas couldn't necessarily stop another carrier from building additional gates somewhere, the city would be restricted to offer the least amount of support they are legally required to provide, that is they have to issue a construction permit if the request is filed appropriately (after years of lawsuits), and they can't stop the developer from connecting the new building to sewer, utilities, and public roads. When was the last time an airport terminal was built with so little help from the airport owner? New gates are not happening unless Congress does something (ah!) and several courts declare the contract between the parties null and void. By then, a hyperloop will connect downtown Dallas to downtown Houston and Southwest will have lost its cash cow...
MAGag
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 12:57 pm

par13del wrote:
jplatts wrote:
[*]Demand for AA service out of DFW has been increasing since the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and is still continuing to increase.

Hmmmmm.....waiting for the WA supporters to say that this is a result of the additional restrictions placed on growth at DAL in 1.....2.....3.....


In order for WN to overtake AA in the DFW/DAL market, WN would have to do more than 400 departures a day out of DAL, and DAL would have to be expanded to at least 44 gates. WN's largest focus city at MDW currently has only 250 daily departures. AA also has nonstop service to domestic destinations not served by WN from its DFW hub, and DFW also has nonstop service to international destinations on AA and its BA, JL, and QF codeshare and oneworld alliance partners.

WN will never be able to overtake AA in the DFW/DAL market, at least without serving more than just DAL in the DFW Metroplex, since DAL will never be expanded to the 44 gates required for WN to overtake AA in the DFW/DAL market. In addition, significant demand for AA service out of DFW would continue to exist if the 20-gate limit is eliminated at DAL and if DAL is expanded beyond 20 gates.
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2692
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 1:31 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
The only solution is additional gates at Love and then a couple should be common use.


WaywardMemphian is spot on with his common sense solution. His right way to solve this is better than Wright.
 
jetero
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 1:31 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
The only solution is additional gates at Love and then a couple should be common use.


WaywardMemphian is spot on with his common sense solution. His right way to solve this is better than Wright.


Common use won't help a bit. They'll be fully scheduled the day they open and those flights would no doubt be grandfathered the following season.
 
jetero
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 1:34 pm

Tugger wrote:
Antarius wrote:
#1 highlights a unique tenet of US aviation. Why does an airline need to build gates?

If we get airlines out of the airport industry, then all of a sudden it's a much more level playing field. There's less sunk cost fallacy involved.

FIrst I will point out that a lot of airports do build their own expansions, renewals in hopes of attracting now operators and business,


Airlines building gates is by far the exception rather than the rule.

Regardless, airlines will ultimately pay for the use of the gates.
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 1895
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 3:52 pm

Another issue with closing down Love Field would be the very likely possibility that Southwest would move their headquarters to PHX, DEN or LAS.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 4:20 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Another issue with closing down Love Field would be the very likely possibility that Southwest would move their headquarters to PHX, DEN or LAS.


Good point, but WN will not abandon the Dallas/Fort Worth market and WN will continue to maintain a focus city airport in the DFW Metroplex if Love Field were closed to commercial passenger air service. There is a lot of demand for WN service in the DFW Metroplex with over 14 million passengers who travel to, from, or through DAL on WN per year.
 
vadodara
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 4:29 pm

A great deal of what will happen at DAL will be affected by Texas Central.
https://www.texascentral.com/life-on-the-fast-train/

WN's biggest milk-runs are between DAL-HOU, DAL-AUS obviously will be greatly affected by this. Like other cities, WN itself is repositioning itself at DAL with flights to LGA, DCA and West Coast, outside its 'Southwest' zone, no pun intended.

The city is unlikely to invest more at DAL because of these considerations. I imagine the residents may also object to further expansion.

HOU is actively competing with IAH; were the city to further expand DAL, the battles between Dallas, Ft Worth, DFW, AA, WN would get ugly very fast.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 4:31 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Another issue with closing down Love Field would be the very likely possibility that Southwest would move their headquarters to PHX, DEN or LAS.


DAL will never be closed. Those horses escaped that barn a very long time ago. In the early 70s, when the city wanted to keep the AP open ONLY as a general aviation facility and the courts ruled that the city could not keep scheduled service out of DAL, that fate was sealed.

The airport (and airport revenue) are much too valuable to the city. Then there's the matter of $500 million of bonds that were used to build the new terminal. If DAL closes, exactly who will repay them?

My hope is that by about 2021 WN announces plans to expand service to McKinney AND Ft. Worth starting in 2024 if it can't expand at DAL. Nothing in the 5 party agreement prevents them from doing so, and WN doesn't lose DAL gates by flying into other Metroplex airports starting 2024. The other signatories to the 5 party agreement will have the choice of letting WN expand at the two new airports or at Love Field. WN WILL be expanding the number of flights regardless.

When that happens, I'll drag out and wear my "Set Love Free" shirt that I last wore about 8-10 years ago.
 
justplanenutz
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 4:45 pm

Yeah, that's when things will get interesting again, particularly if WN wants to serve FTW or AFW. Would the City of Ft. Worth work with then to build a terminal, which is contrary to 50 years of their DFW is sacrosanct rhetoric?

And then there is HSR. If Texas Central gets the OK to build the Dallas/Houston line, but the Ft. Worth/Arlington extension gets the axe, what then? Will Ft. Worth try to scuttle the whole thing?
 
jetero
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 5:16 pm

bob75013 wrote:
When that happens, I'll drag out and wear my "Set Love Free" shirt that I last wore about 8-10 years ago.


That seems to be the cycle when it comes to changing policy for Love, eh? 8-10 years.
 
jetero
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 5:24 pm

bob75013 wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Another issue with closing down Love Field would be the very likely possibility that Southwest would move their headquarters to PHX, DEN or LAS.


DAL will never be closed. Those horses escaped that barn a very long time ago. In the early 70s, when the city wanted to keep the AP open ONLY as a general aviation facility and the courts ruled that the city could not keep scheduled service out of DAL, that fate was sealed.


For the record, the City CAN close DAL or keep it open for solely GA activity. HOWEVER, they would not be allowed to receive federal grants and would have to pay back the outstanding unamortized balance of federal grants. Just ask Santa Monica!
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 5:28 pm

This issue isn't that complicated to fix. Simply allow those with ownership or paid access to the gates the freedom to do with them as they please. The more the authorities try to micro-manage competition, the more anti-competitive the situation becomes.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 6:54 pm

jetero wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Another issue with closing down Love Field would be the very likely possibility that Southwest would move their headquarters to PHX, DEN or LAS.


DAL will never be closed. Those horses escaped that barn a very long time ago. In the early 70s, when the city wanted to keep the AP open ONLY as a general aviation facility and the courts ruled that the city could not keep scheduled service out of DAL, that fate was sealed.


For the record, the City CAN close DAL or keep it open for solely GA activity. HOWEVER, they would not be allowed to receive federal grants and would have to pay back the outstanding unamortized balance of federal grants. Just ask Santa Monica!


That and they'd have to pay off those $500 million in bonds that were sold to build the new terminal.

For the record, the city is not about to commit financial suicide.
 
jetero
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 6:57 pm

bob75013 wrote:
jetero wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

DAL will never be closed. Those horses escaped that barn a very long time ago. In the early 70s, when the city wanted to keep the AP open ONLY as a general aviation facility and the courts ruled that the city could not keep scheduled service out of DAL, that fate was sealed.


For the record, the City CAN close DAL or keep it open for solely GA activity. HOWEVER, they would not be allowed to receive federal grants and would have to pay back the outstanding unamortized balance of federal grants. Just ask Santa Monica!


That and they'd have to pay off those $500 million in bonds that were sold to build the new terminal.

For the record, the city is not about to commit financial suicide.


That, too.

Although it doesn't necessarily have to be "financial suicide" if DFW assumed the debt, net of whatever they got selling the land.

Of course it's not going to happen, but the legal decision that you referred to isn't as simple as it seems on the surface. The decision was NOT that the airport must remain open for commercial service. It was that if was going to remain open and the airport continued to receive grants, it couldn't be closed to commercial service.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 7:13 pm

Due to the population and business growth in Fort Worth and the surrounding area I think it wil bel just a matter of time before we see commercial air service at FTW or AFW, by WN and/or someone else.
 
ScottB
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 7:20 pm

vadodara wrote:
A great deal of what will happen at DAL will be affected by Texas Central.
https://www.texascentral.com/life-on-the-fast-train/

WN's biggest milk-runs are between DAL-HOU, DAL-AUS obviously will be greatly affected by this.


DAL-HOU would see an impact, but DAL-AUS would not. The closest Texas Central will get to Austin is about 150 miles in Waller or Grimes County, and the closest stop will be somewhere between College Station and Huntsville. Also, the Houston station may not be significantly more convenient to much of the traveling public than either IAH or HOU. If they can't meet or beat WN's schedule, they may find it difficult to draw travelers, and TCR in no way, shape, or form will be cost competitive with driving for more than one person traveling.

FWIW, while WN does offer a bunch of flights, DAL-HOU O&D is way down from what it was before the Texas speed limit on most interstates went up to 75 mph. It's down to about 600 PDEW (DFW-IAH/HOU add a bit over 400 PDEW) and I honestly don't think TCR can grab enough of that market at a profitable fare to make the service work.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 7:43 pm

bob75013 wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Another issue with closing down Love Field would be the very likely possibility that Southwest would move their headquarters to PHX, DEN or LAS.


DAL will never be closed. Those horses escaped that barn a very long time ago. In the early 70s, when the city wanted to keep the AP open ONLY as a general aviation facility and the courts ruled that the city could not keep scheduled service out of DAL, that fate was sealed.

The airport (and airport revenue) are much too valuable to the city. Then there's the matter of $500 million of bonds that were used to build the new terminal. If DAL closes, exactly who will repay them?

My hope is that by about 2021 WN announces plans to expand service to McKinney AND Ft. Worth starting in 2024 if it can't expand at DAL. Nothing in the 5 party agreement prevents them from doing so, and WN doesn't lose DAL gates by flying into other Metroplex airports starting 2024. The other signatories to the 5 party agreement will have the choice of letting WN expand at the two new airports or at Love Field. WN WILL be expanding the number of flights regardless.

When that happens, I'll drag out and wear my "Set Love Free" shirt that I last wore about 8-10 years ago.


McKinney Master Plan:

https://communityimpact.com/wp-content/ ... 110717.jpg
 
AST1Driver
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 10:43 pm

The argument seems to be that Delta does not deserve gate space of their own at DAL because they were not part of the five party agreement. And their gate lease from AA was cancelled because of the US merger. Southwest, the City of Dallas and many on anet would like to see Delta leave the market and end this fight. This leads me to ask, would the feelings be the same if it was B6, NK, or F9 that wanted access to gate space at DAL? Would WN be encouraged to give up space (or even have gates taken) for another "low cost" airline? Or is this strictly a hatred of Delta?
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 10:52 pm

AST1Driver wrote:
The argument seems to be that Delta does not deserve gate space of their own at DAL because they were not part of the five party agreement. And their gate lease from AA was cancelled because of the US merger. Southwest, the City of Dallas and many on anet would like to see Delta leave the market and end this fight. This leads me to ask, would the feelings be the same if it was B6, NK, or F9 that wanted access to gate space at DAL? Would WN be encouraged to give up space (or even have gates taken) for another "low cost" airline? Or is this strictly a hatred of Delta?


This is about DL trying to get access to gate space for free. WN paid Unted for the two gates. I'd put B6, NK or F9 in my first sentence if it was any of them instead of DL.
 
AST1Driver
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 11:31 pm

Free? I'm sure Delta is paying a set rate for the gate they are using. They did not, however, think they should have to overpay by several times their value for the former CO gates. WN felt the price was worth it for their needs. This is where the problem lies. Because of the fair access requirements, DL must still be given gate space for their existing flights. And, I'm guessing that if another airline pushed the issue, they would have to be given access as well. Without any CUTE gates this means that an existing customer must give up space. Which of course brings us back to the pending stalled lawsuit. I really don't think a decision will be made any time soon. And with rules changing again in 6 years, I am not sure if the battle is worth continuing.
 
Dallas
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 11:53 pm

Delta screwed themselves with the City of Dallas when they closed their DFW hub in the mid 2000s. They didn’t speak up or show any interest when the Five Party Agreement was being written, nor in the first 6 years after it passed. Only in the last 1-2 years before the restrictions were lifted they spoke up, seeing they could get a brand new terminal out of it. They lost to VX for the two AA gates, then they didn’t want to bid enough in the free market for the two UA/CO gates that WN paid for years later. Instead they want to squat on 1 gate they don’t own or have any right to, while expecting full privilege that others have paid and fought for. The only smart thing they’ve done is dragged this out as long as they could in the courts, which has allowed them to legally trespass and fly their 5 flights a day.

As much as I enjoy DL’s service and inflight experience, I want them out of Love until they properly have gate service and a legal right to be there.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 11:53 pm

ScottB wrote:
vadodara wrote:
A great deal of what will happen at DAL will be affected by Texas Central.
https://www.texascentral.com/life-on-the-fast-train/

WN's biggest milk-runs are between DAL-HOU, DAL-AUS obviously will be greatly affected by this.


DAL-HOU would see an impact, but DAL-AUS would not. The closest Texas Central will get to Austin is about 150 miles in Waller or Grimes County, and the closest stop will be somewhere between College Station and Huntsville. Also, the Houston station may not be significantly more convenient to much of the traveling public than either IAH or HOU. If they can't meet or beat WN's schedule, they may find it difficult to draw travelers, and TCR in no way, shape, or form will be cost competitive with driving for more than one person traveling.

FWIW, while WN does offer a bunch of flights, DAL-HOU O&D is way down from what it was before the Texas speed limit on most interstates went up to 75 mph. It's down to about 600 PDEW (DFW-IAH/HOU add a bit over 400 PDEW) and I honestly don't think TCR can grab enough of that market at a profitable fare to make the service work.


Another big problem is the sprawling geography and poor public transit in both cities. TCR doesn’t do Houstonians headed to JC Penney or Frito-Lay or Toyota much good. That’s not some business school hypothetical; those companies likely generate thousands of inbound O&D passengers per week.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ADrum23
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Tue May 08, 2018 11:57 pm

Hold on. Is WN really thinking about starting up at the likes of FTW, AFW, TKI?

I thought that was against the Wright agreement? Can someone explain the situation here? I'm pretty sure AA and DFW would have something to say about that if it was proposed.
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 12:17 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Hold on. Is WN really thinking about starting up at the likes of FTW, AFW, TKI?

I thought that was against the Wright agreement? Can someone explain the situation here? I'm pretty sure AA and DFW would have something to say about that if it was proposed.


WN has no announced plans to expand anywhere in the Metroplex.

The 5 party agreement requires WN to give up a gate at DAL every time it starts flying out of another Metroplex airport gate through 2023. WN can do anything it wants starting in 2024 and AA, or DFW or Ft. Worth can do nothing to stop WN. Speculation is that WN will want to expand service beyond 180 flights a day, and if it won't be able to do so at DAL that it will be at another airport, and that airport will not be DFW.
 
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 12:36 am

WN should just buy DAL under the condition they get to expand it to 32 gates. Then they lease out a few of those gates, leaving themselves with 28 or so...
learning never stops.
 
7H4
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 12:40 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
WN should just buy DAL under the condition they get to expand it to 32 gates. Then they lease out a few of those gates, leaving themselves with 28 or so...

1. There's a better chance of DFW shutting down tomorrow.
2. Even if they did, DAL would still be subject to the same restrictions placed on it from the WA repeal agreement. Nothing outside of an act of Congress can change how many gates can be constructed.
Any comments/claims/statements are my own and not those of my employer or anyone else.
 
AST1Driver
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 12:48 am

What happens to the AA gates in 2024? I read somewhere (of course I can't find it now) that along with Southwest being allowed to use other airports, American will regain access to DAL. Is there a time limit on the Alaska lease?
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 12:59 am

At the rate of growth happen g in the Metroplex a Northern Airport will be a no brainer. The Metroplex will top an additional 1 million people in the next five years. Lots of that in the north.

The arguement over Love will fade away once McKinney gets up and going. So many people I know that live in the area are waiting on this.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 12:59 am

At the rate of growth happen g in the Metroplex a Northern Airport will be a no brainer. The Metroplex will top an additional 1 million people in the next five years. Lots of that in the north.

The arguement over Love will fade away once McKinney gets up and going. So many people I know that live in the area are waiting on this.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 1:00 am

WaywardMemphian wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Another issue with closing down Love Field would be the very likely possibility that Southwest would move their headquarters to PHX, DEN or LAS.


DAL will never be closed. Those horses escaped that barn a very long time ago. In the early 70s, when the city wanted to keep the AP open ONLY as a general aviation facility and the courts ruled that the city could not keep scheduled service out of DAL, that fate was sealed.

The airport (and airport revenue) are much too valuable to the city. Then there's the matter of $500 million of bonds that were used to build the new terminal. If DAL closes, exactly who will repay them?

My hope is that by about 2021 WN announces plans to expand service to McKinney AND Ft. Worth starting in 2024 if it can't expand at DAL. Nothing in the 5 party agreement prevents them from doing so, and WN doesn't lose DAL gates by flying into other Metroplex airports starting 2024. The other signatories to the 5 party agreement will have the choice of letting WN expand at the two new airports or at Love Field. WN WILL be expanding the number of flights regardless.

When that happens, I'll drag out and wear my "Set Love Free" shirt that I last wore about 8-10 years ago.


McKinney Master Plan:

https://communityimpact.com/wp-content/ ... 110717.jpg


While McKinney would be a great alternative for the far north Dallas suburbs, Plano especially, There needs to be an airport west of DFW get service first. Whether it's Meacham or Alliance, it could give Ft. Worth an alternative just as DAL is. It would never be on the scale of DAL, but they could make some business routes work.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 5:26 am

TKI will see scheduled service before AFW or FTW do. There is very little physical space to build a terminal facility on the East (developed) side of AFW. As for FTW, the city is so keen on scheduled service it has completely remodeled its passenger terminal into a dual-purpose building, FBO on the ground floor, office space on the floors above. What used to be the terminal's passenger parking is now a business jet parking for the aforementioned FBO. Next up on Ft Worth's to-do list, cover up the space taken up by the East section of the now-closed 9/27 runway for more... GA parking.

Passenger flights are just not on anyone's mind at AFW or FTW.
MAGag
 
vadodara
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 2:44 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ScottB wrote:
vadodara wrote:
A great deal of what will happen at DAL will be affected by Texas Central.
https://www.texascentral.com/life-on-the-fast-train/

WN's biggest milk-runs are between DAL-HOU, DAL-AUS obviously will be greatly affected by this.


DAL-HOU would see an impact, but DAL-AUS would not. The closest Texas Central will get to Austin is about 150 miles in Waller or Grimes County, and the closest stop will be somewhere between College Station and Huntsville. Also, the Houston station may not be significantly more convenient to much of the traveling public than either IAH or HOU. If they can't meet or beat WN's schedule, they may find it difficult to draw travelers, and TCR in no way, shape, or form will be cost competitive with driving for more than one person traveling.

FWIW, while WN does offer a bunch of flights, DAL-HOU O&D is way down from what it was before the Texas speed limit on most interstates went up to 75 mph. It's down to about 600 PDEW (DFW-IAH/HOU add a bit over 400 PDEW) and I honestly don't think TCR can grab enough of that market at a profitable fare to make the service work.


Another big problem is the sprawling geography and poor public transit in both cities. TCR doesn’t do Houstonians headed to JC Penney or Frito-Lay or Toyota much good. That’s not some business school hypothetical; those companies likely generate thousands of inbound O&D passengers per week.


Fair points. As I mentioned, I was merely comparing it to DAL-HOU. One could potentially add the Megabus traffic. A public transport model such as HSR or air does not offer the last-mile connectivity.
 
ThePinnacleKid
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 3:28 pm

Not sure why their is even an expansion argument here... The major issue with ever expanding from the 20 gates at Love is that it was a cornerstone requirement of the 5 party agreement which ended the Wright Amendment. Southwest was one of the 5 parties who signed the document forever limiting their DAL plans:

http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/Wri ... 061506.pdf
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 3:51 pm

ThePinnacleKid wrote:
Not sure why their is even an expansion argument here... The major issue with ever expanding from the 20 gates at Love is that it was a cornerstone requirement of the 5 party agreement which ended the Wright Amendment. Southwest was one of the 5 parties who signed the document forever limiting their DAL plans:

http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/Wri ... 061506.pdf


The 5-party agreement can be amended if the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, the DFW International Airport Board, American Airlines, and Southwest Airlines all agree to the changes in writing.
 
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 5:09 pm

7H4 wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:
WN should just buy DAL under the condition they get to expand it to 32 gates. Then they lease out a few of those gates, leaving themselves with 28 or so...

1. There's a better chance of DFW shutting down tomorrow.
2. Even if they did, DAL would still be subject to the same restrictions placed on it from the WA repeal agreement. Nothing outside of an act of Congress can change how many gates can be constructed.


True.

jplatts wrote:
ThePinnacleKid wrote:
Not sure why their is even an expansion argument here... The major issue with ever expanding from the 20 gates at Love is that it was a cornerstone requirement of the 5 party agreement which ended the Wright Amendment. Southwest was one of the 5 parties who signed the document forever limiting their DAL plans:
http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/Wri ... 061506.pdf

The 5-party agreement can be amended if the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, the DFW International Airport Board, American Airlines, and Southwest Airlines all agree to the changes in writing.


I think the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth would take Southwest money. I don't see DFW nor AA agreeing to it though. Let WN buy DAL, expand it somewhat (maybe not back to 32.. but certainly beyond 20), permit international flights, and let the competitors compete from DFW and McKinney.


Regardless... I certainly echo everyone's sentiments that the situation we have now will remain. WN's Texas Hub will have just 16 gates indefinitely, limited to domestic travel.

One question...completely out of left field admittedly... Let's say WN agreed to completely vacate Love Field and wanted to be at DFW, would they ever be able to secure say 24 gates there? Would AA permit that? Or would they be stuck with the limited 16 gates they have now at DAL? How hard and dirty would AA play?
learning never stops.
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 5:17 pm

I would think the constitutionality of a federal law to arbitrarily constrain is questionable
Can't DL just file a lawsuit, have the DAL situation examined, and then get the law "re-repealed"?
A Traddie wannaby---UA DL LH NW AA --- Next DEN-IND (to be decided) Any suggestions?
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7H4
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 6:18 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
I would think the constitutionality of a federal law to arbitrarily constrain is questionable
Can't DL just file a lawsuit, have the DAL situation examined, and then get the law "re-repealed"?

I'd imagine that this is what WN is hoping will happen since (I think) none of the original parties in the WA Repeal Act are allowed to argue for full repeal. I may be wrong though.
Any comments/claims/statements are my own and not those of my employer or anyone else.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 6:23 pm

Dallas wrote:
Delta screwed themselves with the City of Dallas when they closed their DFW hub in the mid 2000s. They didn’t speak up or show any interest when the Five Party Agreement was being written, nor in the first 6 years after it passed. Only in the last 1-2 years before the restrictions were lifted they spoke up, seeing they could get a brand new terminal out of it. They lost to VX for the two AA gates, then they didn’t want to bid enough in the free market for the two UA/CO gates that WN paid for years later. Instead they want to squat on 1 gate they don’t own or have any right to, while expecting full privilege that others have paid and fought for. The only smart thing they’ve done is dragged this out as long as they could in the courts, which has allowed them to legally trespass and fly their 5 flights a day.


Pinnacle Airlines, which was a regional carrier who operated regional jet service on behalf of Northwest Airlines (and Delta Air Lines after the DL-NW merger), actually opposed various restrictions contained in the 5-party agreement, including the 20-gate limit imposed at DAL, back in 2006. Love Terminal Partners, who had originally planned on selling the former Legend Airlines terminal to Pinnacle Airlines, filed a lawsuit against the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, the DFW International Airport Board, American Airlines, and Southwest Airlines alleging that the restrictions of the 5-party agreement restricting Dallas Love Field to 20 gates violated antitrust law. There was an article titled "Terminal Owners Sue over Love Deal", which can be found at http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10398706/terminal-owners-sue-over-love-deal, which mentioned the lawsuit over the former Legend Terminal at DAL.

Pinnacle Airlines was acquired by Delta Air Lines on May 1, 2013, and Pinnacle Airlines has been renamed as Endeavor Air. Endeavor Air still operates regional jet service on behalf of Delta Air Lines under the Delta Connection brand.
 
questions
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 7:44 pm

Dallas wrote:
Delta screwed themselves with the City of Dallas when they closed their DFW hub in the mid 2000s. They didn’t speak up or show any interest when the Five Party Agreement was being written, nor in the first 6 years after it passed. Only in the last 1-2 years before the restrictions were lifted they spoke up, seeing they could get a brand new terminal out of it. They lost to VX for the two AA gates, then they didn’t want to bid enough in the free market for the two UA/CO gates that WN paid for years later. Instead they want to squat on 1 gate they don’t own or have any right to, while expecting full privilege that others have paid and fought for. The only smart thing they’ve done is dragged this out as long as they could in the courts, which has allowed them to legally trespass and fly their 5 flights a day.

As much as I enjoy DL’s service and inflight experience, I want them out of Love until they properly have gate service and a legal right to be there.


I haven’t followed this over the years and am trying to come up to speed in this thread. Sorry if I missed this...

Delta has one gate and five flights per day.

1. How did DL get that gate if not part of the original Five Party Agreement and didn’t purchase it? How are they allowed to “legally trespass”?

2. What is DLs strategy at DAL? Do these five flights provide enough revenue to make a profitable operation at DAL? Is DL at DAL just to say “We offer service out of DAL also”? Does DL want more gates at DAL?
 
bob75013
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 8:10 pm

questions wrote:
Dallas wrote:
Delta screwed themselves with the City of Dallas when they closed their DFW hub in the mid 2000s. They didn’t speak up or show any interest when the Five Party Agreement was being written, nor in the first 6 years after it passed. Only in the last 1-2 years before the restrictions were lifted they spoke up, seeing they could get a brand new terminal out of it. They lost to VX for the two AA gates, then they didn’t want to bid enough in the free market for the two UA/CO gates that WN paid for years later. Instead they want to squat on 1 gate they don’t own or have any right to, while expecting full privilege that others have paid and fought for. The only smart thing they’ve done is dragged this out as long as they could in the courts, which has allowed them to legally trespass and fly their 5 flights a day.

As much as I enjoy DL’s service and inflight experience, I want them out of Love until they properly have gate service and a legal right to be there.


I haven’t followed this over the years and am trying to come up to speed in this thread. Sorry if I missed this...

Delta has one gate and five flights per day.

1. How did DL get that gate if not part of the original Five Party Agreement and didn’t purchase it? How are they allowed to “legally trespass”?

2. What is DLs strategy at DAL? Do these five flights provide enough revenue to make a profitable operation at DAL? Is DL at DAL just to say “We offer service out of DAL also”? Does DL want more gates at DAL?


Actually, DL doesn't have one gate. WN has 18 gates and AS has 2. DL is squatting on one of WN's gates that it temporaily let DL use after AA booted it from one of the gates that belonged to AA (see next two sentences). UA sold two of it's gates to WN. DL had been using one of AA's gates, but AA sold the two gates to VX. DL screamed UNFAIR and went to court. A TEMPORARY restr aining order forced WN to share a gate. Everyone is waiting for a final court ruling.

DL has said it want's to fly more flights to more places (DTW, SLC, MSP?) but can't because it can't gate more gate access. Is it profitable? Only DL knows.
 
KMCOFlyer
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 8:13 pm

questions wrote:
I haven’t followed this over the years and am trying to come up to speed in this thread. Sorry if I missed this...

Delta has one gate and five flights per day.

1. How did DL get that gate if not part of the original Five Party Agreement and didn’t purchase it? How are they allowed to “legally trespass”?

2. What is DLs strategy at DAL? Do these five flights provide enough revenue to make a profitable operation at DAL? Is DL at DAL just to say “We offer service out of DAL also”? Does DL want more gates at DAL?


1) DL originally got the Gate in 2009 when AA subleased their gates to them. (AA had just stopped flying from DAL)

2) When DL came back to DAL in 2009, it originally provided CR2 service to MEM and was later switched to ATL in 2012. In 2014, it announced that it would expand from DL offering 8x mainline flights from DAL-ATL and additional RJ service to DTW/MSP/LGA/LAX. Later the DOJ forced AA to sublease the gates to VX instead because they were a "LCC."
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 9:03 pm

DL can decide to NEVER serve MSP-DAL with RJ's. I'll be fine with that.
 
aaway
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Re: Dallas says it has a plan to resolve Southwest-Delta fight for Love Field gates

Wed May 09, 2018 9:05 pm

jplatts wrote:
Dallas wrote:
Delta screwed themselves with the City of Dallas when they closed their DFW hub in the mid 2000s. They didn’t speak up or show any interest when the Five Party Agreement was being written, nor in the first 6 years after it passed. Only in the last 1-2 years before the restrictions were lifted they spoke up, seeing they could get a brand new terminal out of it. They lost to VX for the two AA gates, then they didn’t want to bid enough in the free market for the two UA/CO gates that WN paid for years later. Instead they want to squat on 1 gate they don’t own or have any right to, while expecting full privilege that others have paid and fought for. The only smart thing they’ve done is dragged this out as long as they could in the courts, which has allowed them to legally trespass and fly their 5 flights a day.


Pinnacle Airlines, which was a regional carrier who operated regional jet service on behalf of Northwest Airlines (and Delta Air Lines after the DL-NW merger), actually opposed various restrictions contained in the 5-party agreement, including the 20-gate limit imposed at DAL, back in 2006. Love Terminal Partners, who had originally planned on selling the former Legend Airlines terminal to Pinnacle Airlines, filed a lawsuit against the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, the DFW International Airport Board, American Airlines, and Southwest Airlines alleging that the restrictions of the 5-party agreement restricting Dallas Love Field to 20 gates violated antitrust law. There was an article titled "Terminal Owners Sue over Love Deal", which can be found at http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10398706/terminal-owners-sue-over-love-deal, which mentioned the lawsuit over the former Legend Terminal at DAL.

Pinnacle Airlines was acquired by Delta Air Lines on May 1, 2013, and Pinnacle Airlines has been renamed as Endeavor Air. Endeavor Air still operates regional jet service on behalf of Delta Air Lines under the Delta Connection brand.


The suit(s) wouldn't establish DL as having/had having property rights at Love. (Edit - NW/DL was not/is not a party to the suit, 'Love Field Terminal Partners vs. City of Dallas', and 'LFTP vs. the United States') DL itself was not operating at Love at the time WARA was enacted. Further, DL became corporate successor to Northwest & affiliates via the merger - also consummated post WARA.

DL and affiliates could perhaps claim interest stemming from ASAs ATL-DAL service. But, since that ended in (IIRC) 2004, such a claim would be a stretch, unless DL (via ASA) remained a leaseholder after the ATL-DAL service was discontinued. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that.
Last edited by aaway on Wed May 09, 2018 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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