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neomax
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Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 5:21 am

He does have a good point. Unfortunately, a small but loud minority of people oppose anything in favor of Heathrow so even something as simple as lifting the curfew will be a nightmare.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 38846.html
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 5:48 am

If so, LHR should be another DXB-style hub that maximizes efficiency on two rwys only operating 7/24
That would surely bring about a plethora of additional slots to meet the seemingly unstoppable mounting traffic to and from LON almost immediately

Still, it should be pointed out that availability of a third rwy will have to be a must-have for the airport, if LHR wishes to continue to be relevant on the scene of global top-league hubs in the next decade or two
 
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Acey
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 6:24 am

For people on the flight paths who are used to life mostly without noise at night, I doubt they'd roll over and accept "airplanes are a bit quieter than they used to be" as justification for ramped up night ops.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Kashmon
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 6:25 am

This is why the west will lose to Asia. Once pioneers in infrastructure development, now extremely slow and lethargic
 
grbauc
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 6:30 am

Kashmon wrote:
This is why the west will lose to Asia. Once pioneers in infrastructure development, now extremely slow and lethargic



Amen so true. Government need to Legislate and the greed trumps over vision and the needs of the people will be coked out. The Chinese have a 100 year plan does the Western world?
 
skipness1E
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 7:39 am

It’s not a small minority, it’s an enormous majority who would oppose this. No sane proponent of expansion wants landers over London in the middle of the night. Beyond stupid, he must know this is a non starter, perhaps that’s his intent. Stupid beyond belief.
When you say “he does have a good point” Neonax, please explain the plus to me? Nobody flies in Europe in the middle of the night except cargo and cheap sun flights. There’s a reason for this.
 
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Acey
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 8:30 am

skipness1E wrote:
Nobody flies in Europe in the middle of the night except cargo and cheap sun flights. There’s a reason for this.

Further, this logic could be extended to a congested airport that doesn't even have severe night curfews, like an ATL type of field. Should ATL have just increased night flying instead of building a 5th parallel? No, it does you no good, because the morning and evening peaks are when you need that extra capacity regardless of additional flying at night.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
SKAirbus
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 8:46 am

Airports like HKG, SIN, DXB etc etc are able to have 24 hour operations because the countries they are located in have no democracy and as such any opposition is silenced or ignored.

Airports (in Western democracies at least) have a responsibility to their surrounding communities, which includes listening to people who are affected. In London it's not just people who live under the flight path close to Heathrow who are affected, it is also people who live towards the centre of town. I used to live in Kennington (which is a good 10 miles from Heathrow) and remember frequently being woken up by the first flights from Asia arriving at 04:30-05:00 every morning. I'd hate to think how it must be if you live in Hounslow.

The only way a 24 hour airport will ever be acceptable in London is if it's built somewhere away from urban areas.
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skipness1E
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 8:55 am

Indeed, I lived in E14 at Canary Wharf and the the power goes on as the arrivals come off base leg to turn final, it's not quiet at 4am but it is limited. It would not be acceptable to have that racket all night.
Also timezones play a huge part, traffic patterns in DXB and HKG are partially dictated by the location of the airport's timezone where people are transitting on from America/Europe going East and vice versa. LHR is predominantly a North American gateway hub and no one wants to do that before about 8am !
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 9:08 am

SKAirbus wrote:
I'd hate to think how it must be if you live in Hounslow.


I lived in Hounslow in the 90's, close enough to almost read the tyre size of landing planes. You basically kept the remote control in your hand and pushed the TV up and down as they came past. Unless it was concorde or something equally noisy, then you missed that part.

Strangely living in Brentford some years later I didn't hear a single plane unless the cross runway way running, despite being under the noise map.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 9:10 am

SKAirbus wrote:
Airports like HKG, SIN, DXB etc etc are able to have 24 hour operations because the countries they are located in have no democracy and as such any opposition is silenced or ignored.

Airports (in Western democracies at least) have a responsibility to their surrounding communities, which includes listening to people who are affected. In London it's not just people who live under the flight path close to Heathrow who are affected, it is also people who live towards the centre of town. I used to live in Kennington (which is a good 10 miles from Heathrow) and remember frequently being woken up by the first flights from Asia arriving at 04:30-05:00 every morning. I'd hate to think how it must be if you live in Hounslow.

The only way a 24 hour airport will ever be acceptable in London is if it's built somewhere away from urban areas.


:checkmark:

Thanks for reminding the "at-all-costs die hards" of A.net that the UK is not China or Dubai. People tend to forget that not the entire world desires to challenge the constant unlimited development of some aforementioned economies.... I'd rather be a N.2 and sleep quiet(er) nights, thank you.
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 9:12 am

Unless we're considering the Donald Trump reign to be the end of the republic as we know it, one might say it's hyperbolic to claim western democracies are free of urban airport ops in the middle of the night.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 9:12 am

Acey wrote:
Unless we're considering the Donald Trump reign to be the end of the republic as we know it, one might say it's hyperbolic to claim western democracies are free of urban airport ops in the middle of the night.


Well, actually, most western (European) democracies are indeed mostly free of airport night ops... and the few in operation are nowhere near the scale of major airports like DXB or HKG.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 9:15 am

Kashmon wrote:
This is why the west will lose to Asia. Once pioneers in infrastructure development, now extremely slow and lethargic


Amen. As a westerner, I am frankly very happy to be losing to Asia. I think most Europeans are happy to letting the economic rat race move to Asia. There are higher priorities in life than being able to claim ownership of 24/7 airport ops in the capital city of a country.
 
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Acey
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 9:25 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Acey wrote:
Unless we're considering the Donald Trump reign to be the end of the republic as we know it, one might say it's hyperbolic to claim western democracies are free of urban airport ops in the middle of the night.


Well, actually, most western (European) democracies are indeed mostly free of airport night ops... and the few in operation are nowhere near the scale of major airports like DXB or HKG.

Yes, forgive me for my trying to include my entire continent (whose population nearly matches yours) as part of the west. :lol:
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 9:25 am

Acey wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Acey wrote:
Unless we're considering the Donald Trump reign to be the end of the republic as we know it, one might say it's hyperbolic to claim western democracies are free of urban airport ops in the middle of the night.


Well, actually, most western (European) democracies are indeed mostly free of airport night ops... and the few in operation are nowhere near the scale of major airports like DXB or HKG.

Yes, forgive me for my trying to include my entire continent (whose population nearly matches yours) as part of the west. :lol:


:lol: Ahhh!!! I was purposefully leaving your country out as that now counts as a kingdom, no?! :rotfl: Sorry! I couldn't resist this!
 
TC957
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 9:51 am

I doubt opening up LHR to 24 / 7 operations will make much difference in the short term as no airline will schedule European flights in the dead of night anyway. There will probably be a few extra long-haul Asian flights and that's about it. LHR isn't designed to be a mega DXB-style hub&spoke operation.
I would suggest a " soft " launch of 24-hr operation allowing the latest generation of quiet airliners only in, ie, A320NEO, A350, B787.
Passing trucks and bikes on the busy A30 Road passing LHR make more din than any of those. And to those that say things like I lived under the flight path in the 1980's or whenever, aviation have moved on even if you think it hasn't. We don't live in an era of screaming BAC1-11's Tridents or VC-10's anymore. Besides, get decent double glazing in your house and you won't hear a darned thing.
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 10:07 am

TC957 wrote:
And to those that say things like I lived under the flight path in the 1980's or whenever, aviation have moved on even if you think it hasn't. We don't live in an era of screaming BAC1-11's Tridents or VC-10's anymore. Besides, get decent double glazing in your house and you won't hear a darned thing.

I did not live under the flight path in the 80s, but I live there now. It is not LHR, CDG, FRA or anything of that size, it is "provincial" HAM. We have aircraft flying across our house between 6:00 and 23:00 and the occasional later arrival. That is particularly annoying in summer, when we sit in the garden until late. And we prefer to sleep with the window open, even in winter.

I work in the aircraft noise business, I knew of the airport when I bought the house and I am glad the airport is close by (40' by bus, 20' by taxi), so I use it a lot. So I will not complain about the situation of today, but I would not accept 24h of operation.


Gruß, masi1157
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Canuck600
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 10:07 am

Roughly what would be the cost of buying out the properties most affected by 24 hour ops vs. building another runway?
 
TC957
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 10:24 am

Canuck600 wrote:
Roughly what would be the cost of buying out the properties most affected by 24 hour ops vs. building another runway?

A lot more than fitting such affected properties with modern double glazing and letting the residents stay put instead of the upheaval of moving.
I stayed at the new Premier Inn by T4 recently, with LHR's southern runway, what, 400 meters max from the building, if that. Didn't hear a thing and they were departing on 9R.
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 10:48 am

Kashmon wrote:
This is why the west will lose to Asia. Once pioneers in infrastructure development, now extremely slow and lethargic


What will we lose exactly ? Greed is not the way to a happy life, many people in Asia actually understand this, their governments will too, one day.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ltbewr
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 10:55 am

Perhaps allow low-noise aircraft cargo ops overnight to take them out of the slots for pax flights during the day.
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 11:07 am

Canuck600 wrote:
Roughly what would be the cost of buying out the properties most affected by 24 hour ops vs. building another runway?

Wandsworth Council provide a very useful noise map.
Based on very rough estimates of population and house prices (many of which are eye-watering), I'm coming up with around $400-600billion.

But I fear it could easily be double or triple that amount. It all depends how many properties on the map genuinely suffer from excessive noise.

A fraction of this amount could be offset against all those putatively claiming hardship from a proposed third runway, but overall it would probably be cheaper to establish a small colony on Mars.

http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/downloads/ ... e_map_2014
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 11:12 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Acey wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:

Well, actually, most western (European) democracies are indeed mostly free of airport night ops... and the few in operation are nowhere near the scale of major airports like DXB or HKG.

Yes, forgive me for my trying to include my entire continent (whose population nearly matches yours) as part of the west. :lol:


:lol: Ahhh!!! I was purposefully leaving your country out as that now counts as a kingdom, no?! :rotfl: Sorry! I couldn't resist this!


The Kingdom of Canada? I like the ring of that.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 11:26 am

SKAirbus wrote:
Airports like HKG, SIN, DXB etc etc are able to have 24 hour operations because the countries they are located in have no democracy and as such any opposition is silenced or ignored.

Airports (in Western democracies at least) have a responsibility to their surrounding communities, which includes listening to people who are affected. In London it's not just people who live under the flight path close to Heathrow who are affected, it is also people who live towards the centre of town. I used to live in Kennington (which is a good 10 miles from Heathrow) and remember frequently being woken up by the first flights from Asia arriving at 04:30-05:00 every morning. I'd hate to think how it must be if you live in Hounslow.

The only way a 24 hour airport will ever be acceptable in London is if it's built somewhere away from urban areas.


It's not even democracy sometimes but the actual location of the airport itself. For example Hong Kong (VHHH) is located on an artificial island quite far from residential developments, with very few developed areas exceeding 70 dB(A). The relatively small Tsing Lung Tau has <100 planes/day over that limit, and the next main one Tsuen Wan has <50.

Singapore's Changi (WSSS) is also mostly near water.

Compare this to airports like Sydney (YSSY) where suburbs like Sydenham gets 172 planes/day over 70 dB, other suburbs like Leichhardt and St Peters at ~100 and numerous more >50.

I would imagine the situation with Heathrow (EGLL) would be worse with much more of the flight path over land and a reasonably high population density.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 am

SKAirbus wrote:
Airports like HKG, SIN, DXB etc etc are able to have 24 hour operations because the countries they are located in have no democracy and as such any opposition is silenced or ignored


WTF...

What does this has to do with democracy anyway?

ICN in South Korea is 24hr, KIX and NGO (and HND IIRC) in Japan are both 24hr, tell me that both are not democracy? (And as much as the current president wants to be an emperor, US still has a functional democracy).

You realized where HKG is located, right? (Aka away from the city which takeoff/landing path is over water). Even then, not very many people wants to get on a plane at 3am.

Then there is the HND case. When they first resume international flights, all the slots were during nighttime/early morning. Airlines applied but the load factor is not as strong as airline like. They open up daytime slots, and that become a bloodbath fight. How do you think MM, a LCC, was able to secure HND slots otherwise? Bc they are both nighttime flights that "mainline" carrier said thanks, but no thanks to.
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Tue May 08, 2018 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
airbazar
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 11:31 am

Zoedyn wrote:
If so, LHR should be another DXB-style hub that maximizes efficiency on two rwys only operating 7/24

LHR cannot ever be a DXB-style hub and lifting the night curfew won't do much for LHR because unlike DXB, LHR is predominantly a O&D airport (over 70% of LHR passengers are O&D). There are still FREE slots to be had in the middle of the day at LHR and lifting the night curfew would equally result in lots of FREE slots in the middle of the night, why? Because the 33% of business passengers that make up LHR's passengers don't want to fly in the middle of the day or the middle of the night.
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 11:52 am

skipness1E wrote:
Nobody flies in Europe in the middle of the night except cargo and cheap sun flights. There’s a reason for this.

So is this a chicken and egg......my understanding is that the reason for this is because they passed laws, not because there was no need or demand.....

Now I agree with a later poster who acknowledges that the bulk of UK travel is not connecting but O/D so...
Still don't understand why they are trying to make sure LHR is the only UK airport of any means when they can open up others ...prestige.....
 
fjhc
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 12:07 pm

Bingo. The people who use LHR want to be landing/taking off at a vaguely civilised time, not departing at 3am. There is little demand for a European late-night hub, simply because of the geography and where people want to head. Heathrow needs more slots around the existing peak times, and a new short runway is the best way to provide that, by allowing the many little A320s heading out to Europe to depart without getting in the way of the heavies.
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 12:15 pm

With the innovative use of RNP-AR approaches and SID’s, it would be rather simple to minimize noise. LHR still uses SID’s based on VOR’s. They are stuck in the Dark Ages of aviation
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 12:41 pm

SKAirbus wrote:
Airports like HKG, SIN, DXB etc etc are able to have 24 hour operations because the countries they are located in have no democracy and as such any opposition is silenced or ignored.

Airports (in Western democracies at least) have a responsibility to their surrounding communities, which includes listening to people who are affected. In London it's not just people who live under the flight path close to Heathrow who are affected, it is also people who live towards the centre of town. I used to live in Kennington (which is a good 10 miles from Heathrow) and remember frequently being woken up by the first flights from Asia arriving at 04:30-05:00 every morning. I'd hate to think how it must be if you live in Hounslow.

The only way a 24 hour airport will ever be acceptable in London is if it's built somewhere away from urban areas.


Bravo ! :angel: :trophy:
 
airbazar
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 12:57 pm

par13del wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Nobody flies in Europe in the middle of the night except cargo and cheap sun flights. There’s a reason for this.

So is this a chicken and egg......my understanding is that the reason for this is because they passed laws, not because there was no need or demand.....

Now I agree with a later poster who acknowledges that the bulk of UK travel is not connecting but O/D so...
Still don't understand why they are trying to make sure LHR is the only UK airport of any means when they can open up others ...prestige.....


There is some need and demand but not nearly to the extent that people make it seem. Mostly on the fringes of the current curfew hours (i.e some long haul flights would like to be able to arrive a little earlier and/or depart LHR a little later). But as stated above, the majority of traffic is O&D and those passengers don't want to fly at 3am. In addition, a lot of the connecting traffic is to/from other European cities. They too don't want to fly at 3am. Anyone who doesn't believe that should look at the Eurostar train schedule. There's a reason why there are no trains between ~10pm and ~6am. With that same logic, if there was such great demand for movements in the middle of the night we'd see HSR with nighttime operations all over Europe but that's not the case. There is plenty of nighttime train service but it's usually the regional type service with extra stops and long travel times.


neomax wrote:
This doesn't make sense. I can literally think of dozens of heavily O/D skewed airports with arrivals and departures in every hour of the night.

Give us an example.
Remember, it's not that the need at LHR doesn't exist. It's that it's not worth the fight for whatever minuscule benefit it may bring.

neomax wrote:
LHR is not any different. The concept that a European night bank can't work is fundamentally illogical considering that LHR is still a major hub that caters to more than just O/D. Somebody connecting through LHR isn't going to care what hour of the night they're connecting at. .


Yes they care. There's a reason why fares are much cheaper for connecting thru KEF in the middle of the night. I personally will never do it no matter how much cheaper it is.
Last edited by airbazar on Tue May 08, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 1:06 pm

fjhc wrote:
Bingo. The people who use LHR want to be landing/taking off at a vaguely civilised time, not departing at 3am. There is little demand for a European late-night hub, simply because of the geography and where people want to head. Heathrow needs more slots around the existing peak times, and a new short runway is the best way to provide that, by allowing the many little A320s heading out to Europe to depart without getting in the way of the heavies.


This doesn't make sense. I can literally think of dozens of heavily O/D skewed airports with arrivals and departures in every hour of the night. LHR is not any different. The concept that a European night bank can't work is fundamentally illogical considering that LHR is still a major hub that caters to more than just O/D. Somebody connecting through LHR isn't going to care what hour of the night they're connecting at. And on top of that, why wouldn't O/D pax choose to take a late night or early morning departure? I have done it numerous times because it is beneficial from a work perspective and gives a lot of flexibility to pax. People that prefer day departures/arrivals will continue business as usual, while expanded night ops will benefit those who would prefer night flights. There's no harm in providing more choice to pax, especially in a market as congested at LHR.
 
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 1:35 pm

Acey wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Acey wrote:
Yes, forgive me for my trying to include my entire continent (whose population nearly matches yours) as part of the west. :lol:


:lol: Ahhh!!! I was purposefully leaving your country out as that now counts as a kingdom, no?! :rotfl: Sorry! I couldn't resist this!


The Kingdom of Canada? I like the ring of that.

Perhaps a dominion? :stirthepot:
 
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idp5601
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 1:47 pm

SKAirbus wrote:
Airports like HKG, SIN, DXB etc etc are able to have 24 hour operations because the countries they are located in have no democracy and as such any opposition is silenced or ignored.


:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
This is by far one of the most ignorant posts I have seen on a.net so far.

Don't disagree with you on DXB, but Singapore is pretty democratic (although not as free as your typical Western democracy), and Hong Kong (at least during the construction of Chep Lak Kok) was relatively democratic as well. You also forgot to mention the fact that unlike LHR, SIN and HKG are located right beside the sea - which means much fewer residents encroaching the area.

zakuivcustom wrote:
WTF...

What does this has to do with democracy anyway?

ICN in South Korea is 24hr, KIX and NGO (and HND IIRC) in Japan are both 24hr, tell me that both are not democracy? (And as much as the current president wants to be an emperor, US still has a functional democracy).

You realized where HKG is located, right? (Aka away from the city which takeoff/landing path is over water). Even then, not very many people wants to get on a plane at 3am.

Then there is the HND case. When they first resume international flights, all the slots were during nighttime/early morning. Airlines applied but the load factor is not as strong as airline like. They open up daytime slots, and that become a bloodbath fight. How do you think MM, a LCC, was able to secure HND slots otherwise? Bc they are both nighttime flights that "mainline" carrier said thanks, but no thanks to.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
Indeed. This has absolutely nothing to do with dissent or democracy whatsoever. Although to be fair, unlike the airports you listed, LHR has much more people living around it than the airports you listed.

On a side note, I've always found it funny how people decide to move right beside one of the busiest airport hubs in the world and complain about aircraft noise. It's a bit like someone going to India and complaining about there being too much Indian food.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 5:30 pm

Quite frankly, the only airport AFAIK that really have flights 24 hrs is DXB. It's just insane how many flights there are departing/arriving at 3am or 4am (at least 10 flights/hr just by skimming through the timetable).

On the other hand, at another 24hr airport in a place that apparently doesn't have democracy, HKG, Using tomorrow's schedule:

2300-2359: 17 Dep, 20 Arr
2400-0059: 19 Dep, 6 Arr
0100-0159: 15 Dep, 3 Arr
0200-0259: 6 Dep, 1 Arr
0300-0359: 0 Dep, 0 Arr
0400-0459: 0 Dep, 2 Arr
0500-0559: 0 Dep, 13 Arr
0600-0659: 0 Dep, 19 Arr
0700-0759: 19 Dep, 13 Arr

The latest departure is at 0220, the one after that is actually at 0715. From 12am to 2am (Latest at 0205) there are only 10 arrivals. There is then a gap until 0415, when a UO flight from HKT arrive. After that it's 0435 arrival on UO from HND. From 0500 on, though, the arrivals start to get in. The 2400-0259 departures are usually going east to Japan or S. Korea (Arriving around 6-7am Japan/Korea time), or they're long-haul westbound to Europe or Middle East (Again, getting to those destination in the morning). Such pattern is very similar to LAX, which has red-eye departures to East Asia and also East Coast.

P.S. And like many said, good luck with people complaining about noise at LHR if they really want to go 24/7. There's a reason why LAX goes into "Over Ocean Operation" during nighttime.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 6:06 pm

Most airports in the us are 24/7. ANC for example is pretty much 24/7
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 6:22 pm

It should add 2 runways and be open 24/7.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 6:24 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
If so, LHR should be another DXB-style hub that maximizes efficiency on two rwys only operating 7/24
That would surely bring about a plethora of additional slots to meet the seemingly unstoppable mounting traffic to and from LON almost immediately

Still, it should be pointed out that availability of a third rwy will have to be a must-have for the airport, if LHR wishes to continue to be relevant on the scene of global top-league hubs in the next decade or two


It may add more slots, but it doesn't improve connection by having banks that allow more timely connections.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 6:28 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
If so, LHR should be another DXB-style hub that maximizes efficiency on two rwys only operating 7/24
That would surely bring about a plethora of additional slots to meet the seemingly unstoppable mounting traffic to and from LON almost immediately

Still, it should be pointed out that availability of a third rwy will have to be a must-have for the airport, if LHR wishes to continue to be relevant on the scene of global top-league hubs in the next decade or two

A 3rd runway is needed. 24/7 would open up a tremendous amount of capability, but besides myself, who wants 4:30 am takeoffs?

But more night ops are needed. For example, to connect India to US bound flights.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
airbazar
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 6:31 pm

idp5601 wrote:
SKAirbus wrote:
Airports like HKG, SIN, DXB etc etc are able to have 24 hour operations because the countries they are located in have no democracy and as such any opposition is silenced or ignored.


:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
This is by far one of the most ignorant posts I have seen on a.net so far.

Don't disagree with you on DXB, but Singapore is pretty democratic (although not as free as your typical Western democracy), and Hong Kong (at least during the construction of Chep Lak Kok) was relatively democratic as well. You also forgot to mention the fact that unlike LHR, SIN and HKG are located right beside the sea - which means much fewer residents encroaching the area.


Actually in the case of SIN, on one side it's an entirely different country :)
And on the other side it's open sea. And when they build the airport there was hardly anything there. Development didn't reach that far out. Whatever is there now was built after the airport and with a strong, pro-business government there is no complaining about noise. The airport has also been careful to expand away from the residential areas, into reclaimed land. Which is not to say that there weren't any casualties. The old fishing villages in the area are all gone, replaced by parks and a ferry terminal.
 
Jetty
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 6:34 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Well, actually, most western (European) democracies are indeed mostly free of airport night ops... and the few in operation are nowhere near the scale of major airports like DXB or HKG.

Not true. AMS has 32.000 night slots and more aircraft movements overall than both of these.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 6:55 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Most airports in the us are 24/7. ANC for example is pretty much 24/7

I understand Anchorage, Louisville and Memphis for example can be busy at night, because of their freight operations. But I think that U.S. airports who cater mainly to passengers don't schedule a lot of flights in the middle of the night.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 7:00 pm

I say 24/7 AND 3rd runaway.

Signed: another E14 resident.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Tue May 08, 2018 7:02 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
If so, LHR should be another DXB-style hub that maximizes efficiency on two rwys only operating 7/24
That would surely bring about a plethora of additional slots to meet the seemingly unstoppable mounting traffic to and from LON almost immediately

Still, it should be pointed out that availability of a third rwy will have to be a must-have for the airport, if LHR wishes to continue to be relevant on the scene of global top-league hubs in the next decade or two

A 3rd runway is needed. 24/7 would open up a tremendous amount of capability, but besides myself, who wants 4:30 am takeoffs?

But more night ops are needed. For example, to connect India to US bound flights.

Lightsaber


Why bother connecting the US to India? Emirates and Turkish Airlines are already doing that. The new replacement for IST will eventually have 6 runways.
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Wed May 09, 2018 2:46 am

lightsaber wrote:
A 3rd runway is needed. 24/7 would open up a tremendous amount of capability, but besides myself, who wants 4:30 am takeoffs?

But more night ops are needed. For example, to connect India to US bound flights.

Lightsaber


As India is taking off economically and aviationally, there might be more and more direct nonstop flights shuttling btwn India and the US, effectively bypassing any connecting points in-between, with the latest generations of aircrafts boasting excellent range capabilities. To which the development of China-US aviation serves a good example
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Wed May 09, 2018 3:10 am

Zoedyn wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
A 3rd runway is needed. 24/7 would open up a tremendous amount of capability, but besides myself, who wants 4:30 am takeoffs?

But more night ops are needed. For example, to connect India to US bound flights.

Lightsaber


As India is taking off economically and aviationally, there might be more and more direct nonstop flights shuttling btwn India and the US, effectively bypassing any connecting points in-between, with the latest generations of aircrafts boasting excellent range capabilities. To which the development of China-US aviation serves a good example


India is pretty far from most of the US. A stop on a megahub gives lots of 1-stop destinations.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Wed May 09, 2018 3:23 am

He's right. They have good quality infrastructure that sits idle for a third of the day so certainly not the best use of resources...
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Wed May 09, 2018 7:36 am

Jayafe wrote:
I say 24/7 AND 3rd runaway.

Signed: another E14 resident.


Well Jayafe, to be really honest with you, with an E14 address it's not as if you would be exactly under the landing or take off path of LHR.... you would wish 5to be that west!... ;-) :rotfl:

:lol: [ E11er here, so no offence meant!]
 
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notaxonrotax
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Re: Paul Griffiths: LHR should open 24/7, not build another runway

Wed May 09, 2018 7:48 am

ltbewr wrote:
Perhaps allow low-noise aircraft cargo ops overnight to take them out of the slots for pax flights during the day.


Fair do!
Electric planes only after 22:00LT!

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