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SteveXC500
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F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 4:45 pm

Following some recent F9 route announcements. This one came out today, May 8.

https://news.flyfrontier.com/frontier-a ... low-as-29/

DEN-ORF/ICT
JAX-BUF/MCI/LAS/MSP/MKE/STL
MCO-ORF

Start dates vary in August.
 
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enilria
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 4:53 pm

Back in DEN-ICT again! That was a Q400 route.

MCO-ORF seems obvious

Not sure all those JAX routes will work.
 
910A
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 4:58 pm

Still throwing darts at a map..
 
RL757PVD
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:04 pm

PVD-JAX (decent sized navy connection) would have been a great market but im sure they are gun-shy after AUS/ATL flopped,

It'd be nice if they did some homework on some of these before attempting something like a 9pm PVD-AUS at arguably the weakest days for those times (Mon/Wed/Sat), when other unserved pairs make more sense.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
AWACSooner
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:05 pm

910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..

Just copying what NK has been doing for years...
 
masseybrown
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:06 pm

JAX-BUF to tap Canadian traffic? That might work.
Last edited by masseybrown on Tue May 08, 2018 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ScottB
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:13 pm

enilria wrote:
Not sure all those JAX routes will work.


Especially starting in August. Not much tourism demand to Florida until Thanksgiving. Plus the Midwesterners go to the Gulf Coast.
 
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GCT64
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:13 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..

Just copying what NK has been doing for years...


Or FR in Europe... FR has been quick to try new routes, but it is also very quick to shut them down if it doesn't work (the list of routes that FR has tried and closed is immense). Nothing wrong with that strategy when it has been shown to be successful and resulted in a huge, very profitable airline.
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spinkid
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:32 pm

ScottB wrote:
enilria wrote:
Not sure all those JAX routes will work.


Especially starting in August. Not much tourism demand to Florida until Thanksgiving. Plus the Midwesterners go to the Gulf Coast.


JAX isn't really like the rest of Florida in terms of tourism. Its not a big draw like most of the state. Its a bit of an outlier from the rest of the markets, but you are correct. Starting in August at the end of summer break isn't the best time.
 
msycajun
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:41 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..

Just copying what NK has been doing for years...

Oh come on, why don't you compare what percentage of NK routes last more than a few months compared to F9. It's not even close.


I agree that the JAX adds are pretty odd and don't expect most of them to last. I'm biased of course, but I think MSY-MKE/BUF would have been better markets to start in the fall. Significantly more O&D.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:41 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
JAX-BUF/MCI/LAS/MSP/MKE/STL


JAX, huh? I don't see it. There is a lot of potential to stimulate Florida demand to MCO, RSW, FLL/MIA/PBI. Maybe DAB. But JAX? It's as if they're thinking Florida + no non-stop competition is enough.

For the route that does have a non-stop today, Delta upgauges MSP-JAX in 3,2,1...
 
MSPNWA
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:43 pm

NK darts usually make more sense than F9 darts. Most of these adds perplex me. JAX? And late summer to boot? DEN-ORF/ICT? It's not a big deal to miss from time to time, but if you're not hitting either, then there's a problem. F9 seems to always be trying and failing.
 
drdisque
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:46 pm

I can see JAX-LAS/MSP/STL working. BUF/MCI/MKE I really don't see where the pax are going to come from.
 
F9Animal
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 5:57 pm

So many darts... But.... Is Frontier profitable? That's what is most important!
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[email protected]
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 6:19 pm

910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..


JAX-LAS/MSP/STL working. BUF/MCI/MKE

PDEW in 3Q 2017 and average fare in this random quarter.

JAX-LAS: 96, $276
JAX-MKE: 31, $271
JAX-MSP: 91, $245
JAX-MCI: 46, $261
JAX-BUF: 31, $232
JAX-STL: 51, $257

Undoubtedly the provision of non-stop flights and far lower fares will meaningfully stimulate demand, so nicely growing these figures.

Take JAX-STL. If F9 grew demand by 50% - pretty reasonable, and I'd expect more - and had a market share of 80% (non-stop providers always has a much higher share), that'd mean weekly pax each way of 431, split across 2x weekly...
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Super80Fan
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 6:26 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..

Just copying what NK has been doing for years...


NK makes sense though and usually stays in most markets long enough unless it is really bleeding money. F9 just throws darts at the map, and if it isn't making money a couple of months later it is ceased.
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Dominion301
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 6:30 pm

drdisque wrote:
I can see JAX-LAS/MSP/STL working. BUF/MCI/MKE I really don't see where the pax are going to come from.


For BUF, from Canada. AC has been flying YYZ-JAX for years...mind you it's currently on a CRJ!
Last edited by Dominion301 on Tue May 08, 2018 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
KICT
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 6:30 pm

DEN-ORF could be considered a service resumption; they previously served Hampton Raods via DEN-PHF on the A318. ORF will no doubt do better.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
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flymco753
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 6:32 pm

Don't shoot me down, and I'm 100% serious, but what about DTW-JAX?

Here's Q3 2017 PDEW and average airfare.

JAX-DTW: 161 pax $256.23 lowest fare

You can't spew to me any kind of BS when I just gave you facts that are greater than all of the routes they just announced.
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TWA772LR
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 6:39 pm

enilria wrote:
Back in DEN-ICT again! That was a Q400 route.

MCO-ORF seems obvious

Not sure all those JAX routes will work.

Maybe F9 can have their SE hub in JAX? Wouldn't be bad for an outfit such as themselves.
When wasn't America great?


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flyguy84
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 6:39 pm

F9Animal wrote:
So many darts... But.... Is Frontier profitable? That's what is most important!

Im sure Frontier hack @mariner will be here soon enough to answer this very question...
SFO
 
flyguy84
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 6:40 pm

masseybrown wrote:
JAX-BUF to tap Canadian traffic? That might work.

Uhm... who wants to visit Jacksonville? lol
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mariner
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 6:58 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
So many darts... But.... Is Frontier profitable? That's what is most important!

Im sure Frontier hack @mariner will be here soon enough to answer this very question...


If you don/t follow your airlines (a) why should I do it for you and (b) why do you post here?

mariner
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727LOVER
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 7:05 pm

Are they still @ St Augustine?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
727LOVER
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 7:06 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
JAX-BUF to tap Canadian traffic? That might work.

Uhm... who wants to visit Jacksonville? lol


Well...AC flies it
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Jshank83
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 7:15 pm

[email protected] wrote:
910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..


JAX-LAS/MSP/STL working. BUF/MCI/MKE

PDEW in 3Q 2017 and average fare in this random quarter.

JAX-LAS: 96, $276
JAX-MKE: 31, $271
JAX-MSP: 91, $245
JAX-MCI: 46, $261
JAX-BUF: 31, $232
JAX-STL: 51, $257

Undoubtedly the provision of non-stop flights and far lower fares will meaningfully stimulate demand, so nicely growing these figures.

Take JAX-STL. If F9 grew demand by 50% - pretty reasonable, and I'd expect more - and had a market share of 80% (non-stop providers always has a much higher share), that'd mean weekly pax each way of 431, split across 2x weekly...



For STL. Allegiant already runs BLV-JAX 2x a week. I will be curious how this impact that. It had been year round last year for the first time but this year it isn't on the schedule for fall/winter yet. I wonder if it will go back to seasonal on Allegiant now that F9 is starting it. I also am curious if WN will just start it up (and backfill the schedule) and try to push F9 off of it like they are for MCI-RDU. PDEW (to expand on above) was 70-66-64-51 (qtr 4 - 1 - 2 - 3) for the last year, averages to 63 for the year on STL-JAX.
 
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MKE22
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 7:23 pm

727LOVER wrote:
Are they still @ St Augustine?


No, F9 is no longer at UST. According to the Wiki page, ViaAir operates seasonal CLT service.
 
ScottB
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 7:30 pm

[email protected] wrote:
Take JAX-STL. If F9 grew demand by 50% - pretty reasonable, and I'd expect more - and had a market share of 80% (non-stop providers always has a much higher share), that'd mean weekly pax each way of 431, split across 2x weekly...


Non-stop helps, but 2x weekly doesn't work for passengers who aren't exceedingly price-sensitive, especially against the broad array of connecting options available via ATL/CLT/BNA/ORD/MDW/IAH/DFW. I'd be shocked if they could pick up more than about 25% of O&D due to the schedule. It's not really a leisure market.

Jshank83 wrote:
Allegiant already runs BLV-JAX 2x a week. I will be curious how this impact that. It had been year round last year for the first time but this year it isn't on the schedule for fall/winter yet.


I don't know for how much of 3Q2017 G4's BLV-JAX operated, but if it were for the entire quarter at 2x weekly, I don't see it coming back. O&D for BLV-JAX was 14 PDEW in that quarter.
 
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enilria
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 7:48 pm

ScottB wrote:
enilria wrote:
Not sure all those JAX routes will work.


Especially starting in August. Not much tourism demand to Florida until Thanksgiving. Plus the Midwesterners go to the Gulf Coast.

Yeah, that plus some of those are just really thin. It's interesting. NK now seems to be preferring markets with two carriers already, while F9 is chasing unserved markets more and more.
 
Jshank83
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 8:14 pm

ScottB wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Allegiant already runs BLV-JAX 2x a week. I will be curious how this impact that. It had been year round last year for the first time but this year it isn't on the schedule for fall/winter yet.


I don't know for how much of 3Q2017 G4's BLV-JAX operated, but if it were for the entire quarter at 2x weekly, I don't see it coming back. O&D for BLV-JAX was 14 PDEW in that quarter.


That PDEW can't be correct.

LFs for BLV-JAX (averaged for both ways)

2017
July 89%
August 78%
September 73%
October 70%
November 84%
December 78%
Jan 2018 70%

Obviously, not great numbers for a couple of those months but more than 14 PDEW. It ran 2x weekly the whole time I am pretty sure. I don't think it ever went to 3x. F9 is going to run it 3x. I also am a little surprised they are starting in August and not waiting til March.
 
rajincajun01
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 8:25 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
enilria wrote:
Back in DEN-ICT again! That was a Q400 route.

MCO-ORF seems obvious

Not sure all those JAX routes will work.

Maybe F9 can have their SE hub in JAX? Wouldn't be bad for an outfit such as themselves.


Lately it’s looked like RDU would be their SE hub. A couple more are supposedly being announced soon.
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Frontier14
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 8:37 pm

910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..


Yes, perhaps you can construe today's and last month's, and all previous new route announcements as being a SWAG and /or a dart. Some haven't worked (i.e.PIT and recent ISP ones), but many have. Frontier will be expanding even more over the next few years if their fleet acquisitions continue. With that said, I suspect there will be a lot of surprises appear for those who do not like the ULCC model and the animal tails.

F9 is making money big time; and like NK and ALG their market focus is leisure and the cost conscious passenger.

Business is a game of chance no matter what the industry. If you do not keep current in the market or take some risks, you will be looking at others pass one by. Indigo Partners, whether you like them or not, has been a risk taker and an innovator when it comes to F9's route selections. They have deep pockets and can certainly afford a few misses here and there.

Frontier 14
 
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stl07
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 9:06 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
JAX-BUF/MCI/LAS/MSP/MKE/STL


JAX, huh? I don't see it. There is a lot of potential to stimulate Florida demand to MCO, RSW, FLL/MIA/PBI. Maybe DAB. But JAX? It's as if they're thinking Florida + no non-stop competition is enough.

For the route that does have a non-stop today, Delta upgauges MSP-JAX in 3,2,1...

a lot of these I would say are defensive/offensive against g4
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Midwestindy
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 9:29 pm

[email protected] wrote:
Take JAX-STL. If F9 grew demand by 50% - pretty reasonable, and I'd expect more - and had a market share of 80% (non-stop providers always has a much higher share), that'd mean weekly pax each way of 431, split across 2x weekly...


1. 2x weekly service isn't going to attract 80% of the market share
2. It won't grow the market by 50%

flyguy84 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
So many darts... But.... Is Frontier profitable? That's what is most important!

Im sure Frontier hack @mariner will be here soon enough to answer this very question...


Can't wait!!!

flymco753 wrote:
Don't shoot me down, and I'm 100% serious, but what about DTW-JAX?

Here's Q3 2017 PDEW and average airfare.

JAX-DTW: 161 pax $256.23 lowest fare

You can't spew to me any kind of BS when I just gave you facts that are greater than all of the routes they just announced.


I say this somewhat jokingly, but I feel as if F9 goes after fringe routes or routes no other airline will try (i.e.. RDU-MDT/PVM) before they go after the more logical adds.
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stl07
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 9:37 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Take JAX-STL. If F9 grew demand by 50% - pretty reasonable, and I'd expect more - and had a market share of 80% (non-stop providers always has a much higher share), that'd mean weekly pax each way of 431, split across 2x weekly...


1. 2x weekly service isn't going to attract 80% of the market share
2. It won't grow the market by 50%

[

But it would stop people from driving all the way out to BLV
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
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flymco753
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 9:48 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
I say this somewhat jokingly, but I feel as if F9 goes after fringe routes or routes no other airline will try (i.e.. RDU-MDT/PVM) before they go after the more logical adds.
You actually are stating the truth. However, here's how I view it, MSP=less people on an MD-90 and now 2 carriers. DTW=more people on a poorly timed CRJ-700/900 and one carrier. Same was with TPA when F9 added Tampa routes, added MSP, MKE, IND, and CMH, but DTW has more pax with less.
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mcogator
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 9:51 pm

drdisque wrote:
I can see JAX-LAS/MSP/STL working. BUF/MCI/MKE I really don't see where the pax are going to come from.

The Jacksonville Jaguars play at Buffalo and at KC this year. So that covers a couple of days...
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9w748capt
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 10:11 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..

Just copying what NK has been doing for years...


I'm surprised no OKC additions. Thought they'd try OKC-LAS or OKC-MCO or another leisure market. They still might some day I suppose.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 10:22 pm

9w748capt wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..

Just copying what NK has been doing for years...


I'm surprised no OKC additions. Thought they'd try OKC-LAS or OKC-MCO or another leisure market. They still might some day I suppose.

They fly OKC-MCO...and SAN...and DEN...OKC-LAS would be a bloodbath between them, WN and G4. OKC-Bay Area would be nice...or OKC-New England.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 10:37 pm

msycajun wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..

Just copying what NK has been doing for years...

Oh come on, why don't you compare what percentage of NK routes last more than a few months compared to F9. It's not even close.


I agree that the JAX adds are pretty odd and don't expect most of them to last. I'm biased of course, but I think MSY-MKE/BUF would have been better markets to start in the fall. Significantly more O&D.


Don’t worry about AWACs, he’s been an anti NK troll for years on here. Years ago he even insisted that Spirit was failing in DTW and ORD and were pulling out of and closing thier crew bases in those cities. We all see where that went.

When NK did start it’s large domestic expansion beginning in 2009ish, they were a bit more dartboardish, though they used focus cities and those tended to stick around, the spokes did change quite a bit. NK is way more diligent in researching new city pairs/markets and thus tends stay on routes much these days, as much as any other airline. And why the hell wouldn’t an airline cut a route or city that isn’t performing?
 
crAAzy
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 10:53 pm

JAX-MKE? For goodness sake bring back the MKe-MIA Flight! I can’t for the life of me see how that flight wasn’t doing well enough to stay. Flight seemed like it was always full and I couldn’t get a basic fare for less than $109 whenever I was looking for one. Actually had to chose AA a few times because they were cheaper than F9 with the works!
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 11:02 pm

Didn't see mention of the routes they are dropping, from today's airline route...

Frontier Airlines in early-July 2018 is adjusting operational network, including the suspension of following routes.

Atlanta – Providence 3 weekly A320, last flight on 05JUL18 (Launched on 08APR18)
Austin – Providence 2 weekly A320, last flight on 04JUL18 (Launched on 09APR18)
Islip – Detroit 3 weekly A320, last flight on 05JUL18 (Launched on 08APR18)
Islip – Minneapolis/St. Paul 4 weekly A320, last flight on 04JUL18 (Launched on 09APR18)
Philadelphia – Birmingham AL 2 weekly A320, last flight on 04JUL18
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MIflyer12
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 11:12 pm

Frontier14 wrote:
Business is a game of chance no matter what the industry. If you do not keep current in the market or take some risks, you will be looking at others pass one by. Indigo Partners, whether you like them or not, has been a risk taker and an innovator when it comes to F9's route selections. They have deep pockets and can certainly afford a few misses here and there.

Frontier 14


Sticking your member in a lamp socket is a risk. It is not a smart risk. DTW-ISP? AUS-PVD? Those are just some a c h i n g l y bad choices.
 
9w748capt
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 11:43 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
Just copying what NK has been doing for years...


I'm surprised no OKC additions. Thought they'd try OKC-LAS or OKC-MCO or another leisure market. They still might some day I suppose.

They fly OKC-MCO...and SAN...and DEN...OKC-LAS would be a bloodbath between them, WN and G4. OKC-Bay Area would be nice...or OKC-New England.


Haha my bad - I remembered SAN and DEN but not MCO - thanks for the reminder.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 11:52 pm

9w748capt wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

I'm surprised no OKC additions. Thought they'd try OKC-LAS or OKC-MCO or another leisure market. They still might some day I suppose.

They fly OKC-MCO...and SAN...and DEN...OKC-LAS would be a bloodbath between them, WN and G4. OKC-Bay Area would be nice...or OKC-New England.


Haha my bad - I remembered SAN and DEN but not MCO - thanks for the reminder.


I'm hoping for some MEM-SAN. I wonder how MEM-LAS is doing. I'm shocked that MEM-PHL hasn't been cut. That was truely left field.
 
freakyrat
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Tue May 08, 2018 11:57 pm

Frontier14 wrote:
910A wrote:
Still throwing darts at a map..


Yes, perhaps you can construe today's and last month's, and all previous new route announcements as being a SWAG and /or a dart. Some haven't worked (i.e.PIT and recent ISP ones), but many have. Frontier will be expanding even more over the next few years if their fleet acquisitions continue. With that said, I suspect there will be a lot of surprises appear for those who do not like the ULCC model and the animal tails.

F9 is making money big time; and like NK and ALG their market focus is leisure and the cost conscious passenger.

Business is a game of chance no matter what the industry. If you do not keep current in the market or take some risks, you will be looking at others pass one by. Indigo Partners, whether you like them or not, has been a risk taker and an innovator when it comes to F9's route selections. They have deep pockets and can certainly afford a few misses here and there.

Frontier 14


You guys missed a bit on SBN-DEN a few years back however the route did well in the warm weather months. Might we see this route come back seasonally? Starup costs would be minimal that the GSE equipment is still there and now that SBN is going to common use gates with a full ICAO compliant CUPPS system similar to the one in use at Terninal E at DFW.
 
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flymco753
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Wed May 09, 2018 12:22 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Frontier14 wrote:
Business is a game of chance no matter what the industry. If you do not keep current in the market or take some risks, you will be looking at others pass one by. Indigo Partners, whether you like them or not, has been a risk taker and an innovator when it comes to F9's route selections. They have deep pockets and can certainly afford a few misses here and there.

Frontier 14


Sticking your member in a lamp socket is a risk. It is not a smart risk. DTW-ISP? AUS-PVD? Those are just some a c h i n g l y bad choices.
MSP-ISP performed twice as worse as DTW-ISP.
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EvanWSFO
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Wed May 09, 2018 12:22 am

F9 pulls the plug on routes before the darts even hit the board. That's why I won't fly them again. They are too undependable. Those routes cut are going to last three months. No thanks.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
drdisque
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Wed May 09, 2018 12:29 am

I'm guessing that msp-isp was worse than dtw just because it's longer.

Msp and dtw are both really weird stations for F9 because in both they only serve DEN year-round but have a ton of seasonals. This year they're even changing the summer seasonals in the middle!

I didn't even know they were flying phl-bhm. SBN-DEN probably can work seasonally but as seasonal as F9's network is, they don't have many seasonal stations.
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: F9 announces yet more new routes

Wed May 09, 2018 2:29 am

flyguy84 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
JAX-BUF to tap Canadian traffic? That might work.

Uhm... who wants to visit Jacksonville? lol


Canadians will fly anywhere in Florida ...... JAX shouldnt be any different. ( Frontier is banking on)

AC has 1 direct flight to JAX. 389 bucks without taxes or clicking into it. I am sure Frontier will offer much lower.

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