User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Tue May 08, 2018 11:55 pm

The Airbus ACJ family has been produced in small quantities over the last decade.

As far as I know no ACJ varaint of the A321LR variant has been offered yet.

Image

It's additional range and space might make it large for private owners & charters,

97t MTOW, 3 ATC's (maybe 4) would give a respectable range. Which is most important for this category.

For governments it might be an attractive alternative for high cost widebody aircraft.

It's cheaper, more quiet, can land on smaller airports and is able to move size-able teams across the ocean, or anywhere with a tech-stop.

Has anything been communicated about this ? On Airbus site it seems a missing link.. http://www.airbus.com/aircraft/corporate-jets.html

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
c933103
Posts: 3808
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 12:23 am

I don't think they even offered ACJ321neo? Let alone extra ACT option
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17925
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 2:03 am

In 2013 there was ONE A321ACJ delivered.

https://gama.aero/facts-and-statistics/ ... y-outlook/

So would the do one? :yes: But whomever is writing that big a check would want the A330ACJ...

Did I read right, zero ACJ delivered in 2017? :faint:

Neither Boeing or Airbus sell many commercial aircraft based business jets.


Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
pugman211
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 4:05 am

As I posted in the A320 production thread, the first A320 Neo ACJ is about to start final assembly within the next month or 2.

I have not seen anything about an A321 Neo ACJ though.
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 6:22 am

lightsaber wrote:
In 2013 there was ONE A321ACJ delivered.

https://gama.aero/facts-and-statistics/ ... y-outlook/

So would the do one? :yes: But whomever is writing that big a check would want the A330ACJ...

Did I read right, zero ACJ delivered in 2017? :faint:

Neither Boeing or Airbus sell many commercial aircraft based business jets.


Lightsaber


It seems deliveries have gone down, probably to do with WWEC of 2008-2014. But it should pick up if that was the reason.,

Image

Advantages of a ACJ321LR would be range and capacity.
But lay-outs are highly customized.

We relative low density, 97t MTOW an extra ACT / 5000NM should be reachable IMO

Image

In the above example you could bed 24 people.

I has 10 privat working "cubicals" that can be turned into F2F meeting rooms and privat bedrooms.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
VV
Posts: 848
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 6:30 am

Okay, so I would like to ask another "interesting" question.
Is Boeing going to launch NMA Business Jet?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3536
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 7:12 am

All Boeing or Airbus have to do is sell a buyer a green airplane; the buyer takes it to one of several completion centers—voila—a BBJ NMA or ACJ321neoLR. Not complicated, just expensive. The airframers just assist the completion centers with engineering.



GF
 
26point2
Posts: 1066
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 9:16 am

Those diagrams really bug me. There’s a fly in the ointment.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8622
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 10:00 am

There is little it offers over the A320. They typical seating arrangement for both is give as 8 seats, so it needs a buyer the specifically wants a A321NEO. So far there seems to be none.
 
cuban8
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:17 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 10:19 am

Thank you for opening the subject keesje.
I considered opening the subject myself for the last 5 month, but felt too lazy about it.

I also see a great potential for the ACJ321LR (especially for smaller governments in Africa/Asia), but so far it's very quiet from Airbus. I have a feeling the ACJ321LR will not get launched. The only current ACJ321 is flying for the Kazakhstan government and is operated by Comlux. I thought current ACJ320, BBJ3 and BBJ757 operators would consider the model, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

I received a presentation from Airbus roughly one year ago which would give the ACJ321LR with 3 ACT's an estimated 5200nm range with 8 pax and NBAA reserves. Three ACT's is the maximum for the ACJ version as far as I know, but since the Seychelles-Toulouse flight, maybe the range figure has increased for the ACJ as well. That being said, +5000nm range is borderline when it comes to extra crew and crew rest facility requirements, so the extra 500-1000nm might be limited by crew duty time limitations.

[quote="GalaxyFlyer"]All Boeing or Airbus have to do is sell a buyer a green airplane; the buyer takes it to one of several completion centers—voila—a BBJ NMA or ACJ321neoLR. Not complicated, just expensive. The airframers just assist the completion centers with engineering.

This is very far from the truth. If this was true, both Airbus and Boeing would launch the ACJ/BBJ models when the commercial models were launched, which is not the case. As you can see on the Airbus homepage, the ACJ320Neo is launched while the ACJ321Neo is not. The main reason is the difference in wiring between a commercial model and a private/business model which is not only expensive but quite complicated and time consuming. The completion centers are not qualified for these kind of works, therefore the distinction. Even plugging doors, installing stairs inside the airframe, ACT tank configurations and water reservoir's should preferably be done by the manufacturer. Completion centers should mainly focus on the cabin and it's features.
When business goes to hell, you get rid of three things. Your private jet, your yacht and your mistress..........and most importantly in that order.
~ Russian Billionaire ~
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 11:13 am

Imagine with restricted supply of PW and LEAP engines for customers ordering in multiples of 10's and 100's, and associated penalties for late deliveries, corporate sales activity would be suspended.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1887
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 11:31 am

VV wrote:
Okay, so I would like to ask another "interesting" question.
Is Boeing going to launch NMA Business Jet?


Considering the NMA hasn't even been launched as a pax plane yet you may wanna wait a bit lol

But eventually, I do believe so. Especially considering that if the pax plane can reach 5000nm the BBJ version would be able to go quite farther
A350/CSeries = bae
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17925
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 12:05 pm

Planesmart wrote:
Imagine with restricted supply of PW and LEAP engines for customers ordering in multiples of 10's and 100's, and associated penalties for late deliveries, corporate sales activity would be suspended.

Do to the long lead times, I would imagine the opposite.

Since it takes a year to convert a green frame to a business jet, Airbus could deliver an airframe and the engine vendor would have a year to get the engines to the delivery center. If the plane had to be flown to the delivery center, two of the spare engines could do the job (not now for Pratt, but those engines will become available). An order now would be green delivery in 2020 or 2021 with final delivery (with engines) due in late 2021 or 2022.

We should really worry if the engine drought lasts that long (hint, it won't).

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 12:24 pm

26point2 wrote:
Those diagrams really bug me. There’s a fly in the ointment.


Maybe it is looking for emergency exits..

On the layout you can see some "cubical" working places / private bedrooms.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7075
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 12:30 pm

Can it accommodate

Crew rest area
Private sleeping quarter (one King size bed)
Shower
Small conference room
Fully equipped galley

Also carry additional weight of SPS, rations, galley carts and baggage.

If it can, it is actually much better than a wide body for national leaders.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3524
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 12:32 pm

This is very far from the truth. If this was true, both Airbus and Boeing would launch the ACJ/BBJ models when the commercial models were launched, which is not the case. As you can see on the Airbus homepage, the ACJ320Neo is launched while the ACJ321Neo is not. The main reason is the difference in wiring between a commercial model and a private/business model which is not only expensive but quite complicated and time consuming. The completion centers are not qualified for these kind of works, therefore the distinction. Even plugging doors, installing stairs inside the airframe, ACT tank configurations and water reservoir's should preferably be done by the manufacturer. Completion centers should mainly focus on the cabin and it's features.[/quote]

Don't know where you come with this misinformation but you are way of base. Boeing will deliver a green BBJ, be it at 737Max or 777 or 747-8. They will support the various "approved" completion centers as necessary. It's unlikely you will see Boeing staff on site for all but the most complicated completions like the 787[s recently done at PAE.

Aux tanks are usually done prior to the interiors by different vendors.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3524
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 12:32 pm

BravoOne wrote:
This is very far from the truth. If this was true, both Airbus and Boeing would launch the ACJ/BBJ models when the commercial models were launched, which is not the case. As you can see on the Airbus homepage, the ACJ320Neo is launched while the ACJ321Neo is not. The main reason is the difference in wiring between a commercial model and a private/business model which is not only expensive but quite complicated and time consuming. The completion centers are not qualified for these kind of works, therefore the distinction. Even plugging doors, installing stairs inside the airframe, ACT tank configurations and water reservoir's should preferably be done by the manufacturer. Completion centers should mainly focus on the cabin and it's features.


Don't know where you come with this misinformation but you are a little offf base. Boeing will deliver a green BBJ, be it at 737Max or 777 or 747-8. They will support the various "approved" completion centers as necessary. It's unlikely you will see Boeing staff on site for all but the most complicated completions like the 787[s recently done at PAE.

Aux tanks are usually done prior to the interiors by different vendors.[/quote]
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 1:57 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Can it accommodate

Crew rest area
Private sleeping quarter (one King size bed)
Shower
Small conference room
Fully equipped galley

Also carry additional weight of SPS, rations, galley carts and baggage.

If it can, it is actually much better than a wide body for national leaders.


No King size bed. This one is more configured as a Government / working aircraft. National parliaments and their opposition parties usually have a field day asking questions for tv, if King sized beds, golden table ware & waterfalls are included. Only totalitarian / strongly hierarchical regimes can get away with that.

I think there are 3 target groups for BBJ's, ACJ's. Private owners, governments / head of state aircraft and corporations / "shuttles' .The seat density goes up. Private owners can do ~anything & often do so. Shuttles usually have Business Class cabins, Government aircraft are somewhere in between.

In this example, a business oriented focus is visible. And I guess it comes from a flat, democratic society. :laughing:

Image

Lots places for discussions in small groups, private cabins for staff to get work done. And a decent beds for everyone, no throne's / private master bedrooms / offices for his majesty/presidency. The crew have decent space in front and there is a bathroom to change / fresh up in the back.

The damn thing costs money and has to be acceptable for the local socialist / green party too.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7075
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 2:08 pm

keesje wrote:
National parliaments and their opposition parties usually have a field day asking questions for tv, if King sized beds, golden table ware & waterfalls are included. Only totalitarian / strongly hierarchical regimes can get away with that.


You will be surprised to know a third world democratic country has
2 x 77Ws ($580 Million)
3 x BBJs ($1 Billion)
6 x E-Jets ($500?? Million)
12 x Mi-17 V5s. ($750 Million)
3 x 744s (about to be retired)
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9423
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 2:12 pm

Most countries (including 1st world democracies like France and Germany) have VIP aircraft for their heads of state. For the most part they lack golden tableware and waterfalls, but a bed is pretty common.
 
User avatar
Jayafe
Posts: 1215
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 2:12 pm

keesje wrote:
...National parliaments and their opposition parties usually have a field day asking questions for tv, if King sized beds, golden table ware & waterfalls are included. Only totalitarian / strongly hierarchical regimes can get away with that...


https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/27/poli ... index.html

:stirthepot:
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 2:27 pm

Jayafe wrote:
keesje wrote:
...National parliaments and their opposition parties usually have a field day asking questions for tv, if King sized beds, golden table ware & waterfalls are included. Only totalitarian / strongly hierarchical regimes can get away with that...


https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/27/poli ... index.html

:stirthepot:


The AF1 has grown into a national symbol. Supporting a national identity / patriotism.
And that tends to be priceless. But even Trump can't have the 24-karat gold-plated
shower and sink fitted in the master bathroom that he had in his private 757.
The democrats would have a field day & his voters would feel betrayed.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
reffado
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:47 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Wed May 09, 2018 2:52 pm

Polot wrote:
Most countries (including 1st world democracies like France and Germany) have VIP aircraft for their heads of state. For the most part they lack golden tableware and waterfalls, but a bed is pretty common.


I'd concur with this. A bed would fit without problem, but not sure about it being King size. Here is the presidential suite aboard Brazil's A319CJ:

Image
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Thu May 10, 2018 2:20 am

Polot wrote:
Most countries (including 1st world democracies like France and Germany) have VIP aircraft for their heads of state. For the most part they lack golden tableware and waterfalls, but a bed is pretty common.
reffado wrote:

I'd concur with this. A bed would fit without problem, but not sure about it being King size. Here is the presidential suite aboard Brazil's A319CJ:

Image


Of course if needed fixed beds could be added. On the Brazil A319CJ you can see everything is kept sober and functional.

All ACJ interiors are customized and build by specialized completion centers. Anything is possible as long as you are willing to pay and wait.

I added a separate bedroom in the back of the example ACJ321LR. There was spare space in front for an additional refreshing / redressing area in front.

Image

Posssibly putting it in the back of the aircraft makes it more acceptable. I think AF1 has two separate beds in the nose.

For ACJ321LR concepts there now is a separate seat, desk and stowage include too.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9423
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Thu May 10, 2018 2:27 am

keesje wrote:
Polot wrote:
Most countries (including 1st world democracies like France and Germany) have VIP aircraft for their heads of state. For the most part they lack golden tableware and waterfalls, but a bed is pretty common.
reffado wrote:

I'd concur with this. A bed would fit without problem, but not sure about it being King size. Here is the presidential suite aboard Brazil's A319CJ:

Image


Of course if needed fixed beds could be added. On the Brazil A319CJ you can see everything is kept sober and functional.

All ACJ interiors are customized and build by specialized completion centers. Anything is possible as long as you are willing to pay and wait.

I added a separate bedroom in the back of the example ACJ321LR. There was spare space in front for an additional refreshing / redressing area in front.

Image

Posssibly putting it in the back of the aircraft makes it more acceptable. I think AF1 has two separate beds in the nose.

For ACJ321LR concepts there now is a separate seat, desk and stowage include too.

Image

Putting the bedroom in the back means they can use the full width of the fuselage for the private bedroom/bath. Anywhere else (except nose of 747) you need small hallway so people can go to and from front of plane without disturbing occupant. Less of an issue on widebodies, can get tight on narrow bodies.
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Now what's a realistic range of a ACJ 321LR ??

Thu May 10, 2018 7:01 pm

OA940 wrote:
VV wrote:
Okay, so I would like to ask another "interesting" question.
Is Boeing going to launch NMA Business Jet?


Considering the NMA hasn't even been launched as a pax plane yet you may wanna wait a bit lol

But eventually, I do believe so. Especially considering that if the pax plane can reach 5000nm the BBJ version would be able to go quite farther

dtw2hyd wrote:
Can it accommodate

Crew rest area
Private sleeping quarter (one King size bed)
Shower
Small conference room
Fully equipped galley

Also carry additional weight of SPS, rations, galley carts and baggage.

If it can, it is actually much better than a wide body for national leaders.


Range
in relation to payload is probably one of the biggest assets in this segment. Question is how far this concept ACJ321LR could go. An A321LR can credibly do 4000NM with 180 passengers
https://imagr.eu/up/0GAt7_PR-diagram-1024x588.png

Payload
Leave home 140 passenger and you win 14t, add a few ACT fuel tanks..But the ACJ interior is probably heavier.
- Take 35-40 passengers iso 180, including luggage, saves you 140x100kg = 14t.

Empty weight
The weight of the interior of the concept above: it has 35 seating places. A fully electric premium, podded business class seat including entertainment system for 2 people weighs 140kg. This configuration does have luxury seats but mostly not that fancy. I think 70 kg/seat overall is reasonable. There are 35 seating places.

Summarized cabin weight:
= Stowage's replace bins, lavatories similar, galley, crew seats etc. assumed same weight
= Assume entertainment systems are ~equal, less screens/ seatboxes/wiring but bigger ones, head end equipment weights, antenna's similar.
+ 2.5t for the various 35 big seats,
+ 400kg for the bed & badroom
+ 400kg for the various extra dividers./ doors
+ 700kg for the various tables, monuments
- Assuming 15kg per passenger for a long haul economy class seat, x 180 you lose; -2.7t versus a 180 seat A321.

:point: +4t -16.7, the balance should be around 12t lighter for a 40 passenger ACJ321LR versus a A321LR with 180 passengers, both without fuel.

Fuel, Additional ACT's
- In its center and wing tanks an A321 can hold 18.6t fuel
- 1 ACT adds 2350kk of fuel.
- If we assume 2 extra ATC's that adds 4.7t of fuel. (on top of the 3 ACT's in an 4000NM 321LR).

It do not think that is an unreasonable idea. The lower passenger weight for the same 97t MTOW easily has the reserves (12t) to take the fuel.
The luggage / cargo space (critical on A321's with ACT's) is not required for 40 people.

Range boosting ACT's examples
737's and 737BBJ have been fitted with up to 8-9 auxillairy fuel tanks (giving a 757 6000NM range http://www.b737.org.uk/images/aux_tanks.gif,
http://www.webforjetset.com/BOEING_757-200_VIP_YEAR_1991_FOR_SALE/BOEING_757-200_VIP_YEAR_1991_FOR_SALE-NX.htm )

Image

How far would an A321LR fly with a payload of 4t ( passengers), + 1.3t heavier interior) fly, around 4500NM according to this graph.

Image

:arrow: But now add e.g. 4.7t fuel capacity, I wonder how that works? An ACJ321LR seems clearly fuel capacity restricted, not payload restricted
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat May 12, 2018 10:03 pm

2 ACT's add 4.7t of fuel.

Image

There would still be room left for 4 LD3-45 or roughly 120 bags. More than enough for up to 30 people.

If we assume an A321LR consumes 2350kg/hr that means around 2 hours flight / 900NM's. That might be a bit optimistic, although TO weight would still 5-7t below MTOW.

800NM Eextra range seems realistic. with 2 extra ACT's, giving an ACJ321LR Range of around 4800NM.

If e.g. the government of Danmark would buy this ACJ321LR as government aircraft, instead of fishery control Challengers, this would be the range:

Image

Sufficient it seems. The number of tech stops per year for global reach would be very low.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17925
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sun May 13, 2018 12:31 am

keesje wrote:
2 ACT's add 4.7t of fuel.

Image

There would still be room left for 4 LD3-45 or roughly 120 bags. More than enough for up to 30 people.

If we assume an A321LR consumes 2350kg/hr that means around 2 hours flight / 900NM's. That might be a bit optimistic, although TO weight would still 5-7t below MTOW.

800NM Eextra range seems realistic. with 2 extra ACT's, giving an ACJ321LR Range of around 4800NM.

If e.g. the government of Danmark would buy this ACJ321LR as government aircraft, instead of fishery control Challengers, this would be the range:

Image

Sufficient it seems. The number of tech stops per year for global reach would be very low.

Image

800nm range is realistic, but please realize business jet use larger reserves. So the plane might fly as if it had 5000nm range.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3536
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sun May 13, 2018 2:17 am

Cuban8,

A fair number of B727s and earlier 737s have been delivered green or converted from airline to corporate use long before the BBJ/ACJ era. ITT, Ford, Getty, Forbes, Mecum were all early airliner users. This goes back to the late 70s, early 80s. ITT’s was a green delivery of a -100 with -200 wing and gear. I believe it later was bought by the Getty family, Valsan-converted and is probably the lowest time 727 ever.

GF
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sun May 13, 2018 11:01 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cuban8,

A fair number of B727s and earlier 737s have been delivered green or converted from airline to corporate use long before the BBJ/ACJ era. ITT, Ford, Getty, Forbes, Mecum were all early airliner users. This goes back to the late 70s, early 80s. ITT’s was a green delivery of a -100 with -200 wing and gear. I believe it later was bought by the Getty family, Valsan-converted and is probably the lowest time 727 ever.

GF


It’s still active & was busy around Europe last year. http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=311AG Now 47 yrs old :tongue2: still Peter Gordon’s toy. Apparently he tried to sell it a few years back. The exterior looks fresher than the interior IMO.
http://airfleetsales.com/pdf/Boeing727-100REW-20512.pdf


RE ACJ321LR range, I guess an additional, 6th ACT would be much of an issue providing an extra 450NM range. Some one would have to take a look at the CG though.. Maybe 7 ACT would be easier to certify?

An A321 fuel quantity pannel (for ground crew) I stumbled over. Left below you can see added ACT switches.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
c933103
Posts: 3808
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sun May 13, 2018 1:28 pm

Payload range of other ACJs...
ACJ319neo: 8 passengers 6750nm (With 5 ACT)
ACJ320neo: 25 passengers 6000nm (With 2 ACT)
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat May 19, 2018 2:35 pm

Having looked at the interiors, weights, ranges it seems in most cases an ACJ320 would be large enough. Let's not forget an A321 is more than 7 meters longer than an A320/ 5 metrrs than BBJ2. I wonder what added value an ACJ321LR could offer.

It seems when it can be used by a government instead of a WB the cost / operational advantages are clear. But you would have know what the typical requirements are for a government long haul aircraft, how many passengers, what facilities are required.

Maybe 1 or 2 serious conference rooms with big screens, multiple bedrooms, .. ?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
LJ
Posts: 4811
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat May 19, 2018 3:41 pm

keesje wrote:
It seems when it can be used by a government instead of a WB the cost / operational advantages are clear. But you would have know what the typical requirements are for a government long haul aircraft, how many passengers, what facilities are required.


Since many heads of state travel on commercial flights anyway, range is not an issue. Yes, the Dutch government required an aircraft which could fly nonstop between AMS and AUA/CUR/BON, but how many times will they actually do this? The same for other governments. How many times do they actually need an aircraft with the extra range above an ACJ319/320?
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat May 19, 2018 9:33 pm

LJ wrote:
keesje wrote:
It seems when it can be used by a government instead of a WB the cost / operational advantages are clear. But you would have know what the typical requirements are for a government long haul aircraft, how many passengers, what facilities are required.


Since many heads of state travel on commercial flights anyway, range is not an issue. Yes, the Dutch government required an aircraft which could fly nonstop between AMS and AUA/CUR/BON, but how many times will they actually do this? The same for other governments. How many times do they actually need an aircraft with the extra range above an ACJ319/320?


It seems BBJ and ACJ have enough range to cover al most all destinations. For PM's Heads of state Commercial flying is a hassle, going through a large airport, waiting times lounges, boarding, full cabins so so beds and the same hassle ariving with hundreds of others.

A government aircraft leaving when everybody is ready, providing rest, food on demand, space for briefings and a full bed room, landing on a smaller airport, provides an environment to rest, prepare and arrive fresh iso slightly exhausted.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
cuban8
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:17 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat May 19, 2018 10:34 pm

GalaxyFlyer,

I don’t deny there are green airplanes which are refurbished as you have mentioned, but from my experience (6 years negotiating ACJ’s & BBJ’s) it usually ends up much more complicated, time consuming and in the end more expensive.

I have never entered negotiations about a green Boeing 737 (pax version), but I recently ended up with a price tag difference of roughly $15 million between an A320NEO and an ACJ320NEO. There is a very valid reason why, (as far as I know), not a single new ACJ NEO operator has opted for canceled/rejected A319NEO/A320NEO airplanes to refurbish.

To add to Keesje’s last reply; besides the time convenience and comfort, one of the main advantages for governments to fly private is highly related to it’s entourage. Security details (with arms), advisors, PR department etc are quite difficult to accommodate in first class on a short time notice.
When business goes to hell, you get rid of three things. Your private jet, your yacht and your mistress..........and most importantly in that order.
~ Russian Billionaire ~
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13121
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:21 am

Looking at what might really add value for a government aircraft, I guess a serious meeting room for video conferences, briefings and meetings should be included.

Image

The options for a meeting room on a NB are much more limitted than on a WB, But an 8 person, functional, separated quiet meeting room with communication equipment should be possible.

Getting in / out of seats combined with a big table poses some challenges.

I could find littel examples though of NB meeting rooms on ACJ's / 737 BBJ's.

I guess it should be in front of the cabin, because it is most quiet there.

Image

The privat /seats cabins I set up in the back are nice, but more traditional NB first class seating would offer the same sleeping comfort and private workplace as those.

There are many First / Business window seat that could fit in.

AA has both 1-1 and 2-2 sleepers transcon and Jetblue combines both in 1 cabin. I think I will include those.

Image

Maybe AA's configuration is better, everybody the same seat & good aisle access.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
WIederling
Posts: 8746
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:43 am

c933103 wrote:
I don't think they even offered ACJ321neo? Let alone extra ACT option


couldn't you order the ACJ versions of the A320 family with as many ACTs as the hold allowed? ( like 6 in an ACJ319 )
Murphy is an optimist
 
c933103
Posts: 3808
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:31 pm

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I don't think they even offered ACJ321neo? Let alone extra ACT option


couldn't you order the ACJ versions of the A320 family with as many ACTs as the hold allowed? ( like 6 in an ACJ319 )

Different versions of ACJ have different amount of ACT available as option according to Airbus official site. ACJ321ceo apparently only have up to two available as option although there are third party provider that can help install a third ACT into ACJ321.

And then again, what I wrote wasn't about availability of ACT options, but instead it's about Airbus isn't offering ACJ321neo
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8746
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:00 pm

c933103 wrote:
And then again, what I wrote wasn't about availability of ACT options, but instead it's about Airbus isn't offering ACJ321neo


Well, to be precise it started out with an eye to the ACJ321LR

The ACJ use profile tends to be not going for full payload.
The LR allows more payload for the full fuel.
with less payload adding ACTs is a viable solution to expand range for the regular A321.
https://www.avbuyer.com/articles/jets-c ... j319-21084
6 for the A319 ACJ
no reason why an A321 ACJ should be limited to less
Murphy is an optimist
 
SelseyBill
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:56 pm

Jayafe wrote:
keesje wrote:
...National parliaments and their opposition parties usually have a field day asking questions for tv, if King sized beds, golden table ware & waterfalls are included. Only totalitarian / strongly hierarchical regimes can get away with that...


https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/27/poli ... index.html

:stirthepot:


" ....... A Boeing official said the price includes work to develop and build two presidential aircraft, including features unique to Air Force One such as a communications suite, internal and external stairs, large galleys and other equipment, as well as structural changes designed to protect and sustain the President and those on board for an extended period of time........"

wow......wtf.......external stairs ?

Its gonna be a bit rough using those at FL42 !!!!!!!

He might have to comb his after after ........
 
SelseyBill
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:58 pm

SelseyBill wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
keesje wrote:
...National parliaments and their opposition parties usually have a field day asking questions for tv, if King sized beds, golden table ware & waterfalls are included. Only totalitarian / strongly hierarchical regimes can get away with that...


https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/27/poli ... index.html

:stirthepot:


" ....... A Boeing official said the price includes work to develop and build two presidential aircraft, including features unique to Air Force One such as a communications suite, internal and external stairs, large galleys and other equipment, as well as structural changes designed to protect and sustain the President and those on board for an extended period of time........"[/i][i]



wow......wtf.......external stairs ?

Its gonna be a bit rough using those at FL42 !!!!!!!

He might have to comb his after after ........
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 616
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:08 pm

SelseyBill wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
keesje wrote:
...National parliaments and their opposition parties usually have a field day asking questions for tv, if King sized beds, golden table ware & waterfalls are included. Only totalitarian / strongly hierarchical regimes can get away with that...


https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/27/poli ... index.html

:stirthepot:


" ....... A Boeing official said the price includes work to develop and build two presidential aircraft, including features unique to Air Force One such as a communications suite, internal and external stairs, large galleys and other equipment, as well as structural changes designed to protect and sustain the President and those on board for an extended period of time........"

wow......wtf.......external stairs ?

Its gonna be a bit rough using those at FL42 !!!!!!!

He might have to comb his after after ........


External stairs are the built in stairs used to exit at places where mobile stairs are not available or at airports where security is of a concern.
Image

On the topic of stairs and Business Jets, the 737 sits low enough that built in stairs is an option on a standard pax 737, and I believe these stairs comes as standard on BBJs.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3639
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:22 pm

One problem with the A321LR on long range flights would be cruising altitude and speed. Gulfstreams cruise at 0.85-0.92. That is over an hour savings on a transpacific flight. In crowded airspace higher altitudes offer more direct routes. Speed is the downside to the 737BBJ and ACJ. I dont know if more range on the A321 will really help sell more. The standard A321 likely has 6000 miles of range.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1341
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:24 pm

lightsaber wrote:
In 2013 there was ONE A321ACJ delivered.

https://gama.aero/facts-and-statistics/ ... y-outlook/

So would the do one? :yes: But whomever is writing that big a check would want the A330ACJ...

Did I read right, zero ACJ delivered in 2017? :faint:

Neither Boeing or Airbus sell many commercial aircraft based business jets.


Lightsaber


I wonder how many airlines based business jets are purpose built, rather than converted after some years of airline service. It ought to be better economics if done by conversion. Let the airline eat up lots of hours/cycles .. the business jet people don't need so many.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1341
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:32 pm

cuban8 wrote:
Thank you for opening the subject keesje.
I considered opening the subject myself for the last 5 month, but felt too lazy about it.

I also see a great potential for the ACJ321LR (especially for smaller governments in Africa/Asia), but so far it's very quiet from Airbus. I have a feeling the ACJ321LR will not get launched. The only current ACJ321 is flying for the Kazakhstan government and is operated by Comlux. I thought current ACJ320, BBJ3 and BBJ757 operators would consider the model, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

I received a presentation from Airbus roughly one year ago which would give the ACJ321LR with 3 ACT's an estimated 5200nm range with 8 pax and NBAA reserves. Three ACT's is the maximum for the ACJ version as far as I know, but since the Seychelles-Toulouse flight, maybe the range figure has increased for the ACJ as well. That being said, +5000nm range is borderline when it comes to extra crew and crew rest facility requirements, so the extra 500-1000nm might be limited by crew duty time limitations.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
All Boeing or Airbus have to do is sell a buyer a green airplane; the buyer takes it to one of several completion centers—voila—a BBJ NMA or ACJ321neoLR. Not complicated, just expensive. The airframers just assist the completion centers with engineering.

This is very far from the truth. If this was true, both Airbus and Boeing would launch the ACJ/BBJ models when the commercial models were launched, which is not the case. As you can see on the Airbus homepage, the ACJ320Neo is launched while the ACJ321Neo is not. The main reason is the difference in wiring between a commercial model and a private/business model which is not only expensive but quite complicated and time consuming. The completion centers are not qualified for these kind of works, therefore the distinction. Even plugging doors, installing stairs inside the airframe, ACT tank configurations and water reservoir's should preferably be done by the manufacturer. Completion centers should mainly focus on the cabin and it's features.


I might need to be educated. I thought that one could take an existing airliner to a completion center and get it's interior remade for a king.

Certainly there are DC-9s done in executive style. Did Douglas really launch a Douglas Business Jet?

There are 737-300's with exec interiors. And even Bae-146s.
 
bevan7
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:44 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:34 pm

Why are there flies on the photos?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3536
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:38 pm

It can be done, certainly. The issue is a rather extensive electrical wiring to accommodate the new and expensive interior. But, those costs can be covered by the depreciated acquisition cost. Airliners are typically well maintained. Buying the engineeeribg data can be expensive, but the better completion centers already have it. Before Boeing started the BBJ program loads of ex-airliners were modified to be business jets. John Mecom owned a 737-200, a number of 727-100s were done when airlines were shedding them, ITT had a purpose-built business 727, Ford Motors converted one as did Hardesty Construction.

GF
 
7673mech
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:10 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:58 pm

cuban8 wrote:
Thank you for opening the subject keesje.
I considered opening the subject myself for the last 5 month, but felt too lazy about it.

I also see a great potential for the ACJ321LR (especially for smaller governments in Africa/Asia), but so far it's very quiet from Airbus. I have a feeling the ACJ321LR will not get launched. The only current ACJ321 is flying for the Kazakhstan government and is operated by Comlux. I thought current ACJ320, BBJ3 and BBJ757 operators would consider the model, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

I received a presentation from Airbus roughly one year ago which would give the ACJ321LR with 3 ACT's an estimated 5200nm range with 8 pax and NBAA reserves. Three ACT's is the maximum for the ACJ version as far as I know, but since the Seychelles-Toulouse flight, maybe the range figure has increased for the ACJ as well. That being said, +5000nm range is borderline when it comes to extra crew and crew rest facility requirements, so the extra 500-1000nm might be limited by crew duty time limitations.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
All Boeing or Airbus have to do is sell a buyer a green airplane; the buyer takes it to one of several completion centers—voila—a BBJ NMA or ACJ321neoLR. Not complicated, just expensive. The airframers just assist the completion centers with engineering.

This is very far from the truth. If this was true, both Airbus and Boeing would launch the ACJ/BBJ models when the commercial models were launched, which is not the case. As you can see on the Airbus homepage, the ACJ320Neo is launched while the ACJ321Neo is not. The main reason is the difference in wiring between a commercial model and a private/business model which is not only expensive but quite complicated and time consuming. The completion centers are not qualified for these kind of works, therefore the distinction. Even plugging doors, installing stairs inside the airframe, ACT tank configurations and water reservoir's should preferably be done by the manufacturer. Completion centers should mainly focus on the cabin and it's features.


Not sure where you got your information, however all large jet BBJs are delivered green with minimum equipment inside. Typically forward and aft lav.

Having work for a mfg and currently make a living taking airplanes to repair stations or representing customers at mfg, I can tell you the repair stations/completion centers are better equipped to complete the airplane in terms of customization.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3639
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:05 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It can be done, certainly. The issue is a rather extensive electrical wiring to accommodate the new and expensive interior. But, those costs can be covered by the depreciated acquisition cost. Airliners are typically well maintained. Buying the engineeeribg data can be expensive, but the better completion centers already have it. Before Boeing started the BBJ program loads of ex-airliners were modified to be business jets. John Mecom owned a 737-200, a number of 727-100s were done when airlines were shedding them, ITT had a purpose-built business 727, Ford Motors converted one as did Hardesty Construction.

GF


I am sure it can be made. My question is if the business jet clientele are willing to fly low and slow for 10+ hours. I doubt an MTOW upgrade is what is needed to make the A321 more appealing to business jet clients. Business jets are almost never operating near MTOW, but i could be wrong
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3536
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Airbus Corporate Jet ACJ321LR, Scheduled ?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:07 am

Agreed, newbiepilot, many owners buy simply to fly at F450 and boast about being M.02 faster than their friend’s plane—a whole 12 knots! I flew at or near MTOW fairly often—lots of international work.p, but there are plenty of Global/Gulfstream types that fly NYC-PBI or LAX-SFO. Also we operated off short runways. A BBJ won’t cost much more per hour than a Global due to much cheaper maintenance and parts costs offsetting higher fuel bills. The rub comes in ground handling charges, access to fewer small airports and more flying time to fly the trip.

Frankly, it can just as rough at F450 as at F350; TAS declines above about F410 making the impressive Mach number a little less so. My first trip in a Global, HNL-SYD, was within 10 minutes of the last C-5 leg I flew on the same route. M.77 at F290 isn’t that much different from M.83 at F430 in TAS.

GF
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos