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leghorn
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arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 12:18 pm

Please see http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-frankfurt/44775
Synopsis in English: Ryanair flights are delayed beyond 23:00 hrs too often.
Is this really such an issue for residents around the airport.
Aren't modern planes really quiet and they wouldn't normally have their engines spinning making much noise on approach from 50 to 100km out.
They might get a bit noisier within the environs of the airport but they are not noisy like planes from a few decades ago.
Obviously taking off would have the engines at full throttle and that is unacceptable.

Shouldn't this policy be reviewed and instead of a blanket(sic) ban shouldn't more modern quieter planes be allowed to land at night using the equivalent fo the green sticker on the windscreen of german cars e.g. if your machine doesn't conform to certain standards then you aren't welcome around here(at this time of night).
FRA is a very expensive piece of infrastructure to be leaving idle for many hours each day.
 
FatCat
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 12:53 pm

I was in Frankfurt on a business trip in Feb and my hotel was in Offenbach, right on the track of the 25's, there were planes landing about non stop until 8pm, then the traffic diminished a lot. I don't remember any plane landing after 11pm, but maybe they just switched landings on 07s.
Anyway planes landing over Offenbach are not very loud, I saw 777s, 747s, the whole 320fam, 737s, ERJs, even 380s (very quiet!) but a Mofa or a big truck will make a lot more noise than those planes. Altitude was about 2000 feet I suppose, maybe something more. BTW airplane enthusiasts cannot be taken as a meter of measure for plane noise, I was happy to hear the F16s taking off on full a/b when I was in the Military in Aviano lol
 
WPvsMW
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 2:06 pm

It's the reverse thrust that is the loud part of landing. It's often (usually?) louder than take-off thrust, based on working near HNL.
 
leghorn
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 2:12 pm

Yes, but there is an awful lot of greenery around FRA on most sides and commercial building on the other side. It isn't in really a residential area.
 
steman
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 2:30 pm

Although I agree that the night ban should not be too strict and should take into considerations delays and newer models,
the problem in this case is that Ryanair has had a very high number of ladings past the night curfew.
This seems to be caused by a too tight schedule on the parts of Ryanair and very often flights from BCN and STN have landed past their allotted time due to air traffic control issues. However other airlines (firstly Lufthansa) have successfully (and painfully) amended their flight plan in order to avoid landing and take offs after curfew.
According to some, FR does not seem to take this night ban too seriously or is unwilling to modify its very tight flight schedule to avoid ladings past curfew time.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 2:48 pm

leghorn wrote:
Yes, but there is an awful lot of greenery around FRA on most sides and commercial building on the other side. It isn't in really a residential area.


The night ban never really made sense for FRA.
 
FatCat
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 2:52 pm

Agree, but planes landing can be heard as far as Seiligstadt, although they are no big deal.
 
fraT
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 3:11 pm

The ban was imposed as a provision to allow FRAPORT to build the fourth runway. So it was a political decision which will be very hard to remove or adjust.
Now that the curfew is there, airlines should accept it and plan their schedules accordingly. It seems that FR is the only airline which does not care too much about it. It was mentioned above that most carriers did changes to their schedule to be within the legal hours so the same should go to FR. Hopefully the Hessian government will make it clear to them that the laws are applying for every airline.

Of course the airplanes are much quiter but if you live in Sachsenhausen (southern part of FRA) or Raunheim in the west of the airport, the noises are much louder than in Offenbach.
I am living south of FRA and have the planes taking of from Runway 18 flying straight over my house. The distance is also much bigger than the above mentioned places and I never had a problem with the air traffic. Funnily enough I noticed a LATAM flight a couple of days ago which took off nearly one hour after the curfew. Not that it disturbed me but it was so unusual.
 
leghorn
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 3:12 pm

The article mentions a potential fine of 50,000 euro per incident. If the local government loses patience with them then they'll start enforcing the fines.
I think they are being indulged at the moment as they are new to the airport but they'll just be fined in to compliance and/or given last incoming slots earlier in the night. If FRA are really annoyed with them they'll find themselves landing at Hahn when they arrive late and that will give the pilots motivation to arrive on time.
 
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Siren
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 4:23 pm

leghorn wrote:
find themselves landing at Hahn when they arrive late and that will give the pilots motivation to arrive on time.


I can just see the BFU Accident Report published sometime in 2026 after some airline's anxious drivers ram their plane into the ground at FRA because they were too motivated to battle the crosswind and windshear and land before 23:00 local rather than have to position to HHN....

Eliminate flexibility from operations and force humans to stick to hard deadlines, and irrational behavior will inevitably pop up.
 
PanHAM
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 4:55 pm

Landings between 23h00 and 23h59 are legal when the delay is subject to external causes whi ch are unavodable by the carrier. The rulling is that not more than 7.5 landings on an annual average using that excemption.

The whole things is a Ryanair bashing, the Airport NIMBYs do not want low cost carriers at FRA. They Claim that FR delaqys their flights on purpose. Now, tell that to MOL. I think that he would laugh all the way to DUB. The most cost conscious airrline of the world keeping their assets and staff in the air longer than needed and that on porpose

Another proof that NIMBYs are selfish fools
 
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DominikR83
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 5:41 pm

I`m absolutely convinced that this huge amount of landings of FR after the deadline is due to their too tight flight schedule.
But this is no surpirse for me.Of course a LCC wants to user its planes as often and as effecient as possible.So with the fleet they have they squeeze out as much flights as possible.
Everyone who has done some research on FR during the past 20 years MUST have known that FR will not care that much about the night ban at FRA.
I live in Raunheim(west of the airport) and the landing planes can be very loud(especially when a 747 is passing over ones head at approx. 1000 feet) so i can understand that there had to be a political deal with the villages aorund the airport to get the 4th runway.
They only way to get FR to follow the rules are heavy fines. If they have to pay 50.000 Euros for each and every flight which is too late they will change their flight schedule.
The only way to work with FR is to put extreme financial pressure on them.
 
B777LRF
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 6:01 pm

Correct; Ryanair or, rather, MoL only respond to actual consequences. You may threaten them all day long, and he couldn't give a flying so and so - It's only when consequences, of the financial kind, hits him square in the face that action is taken. For reference, see their protracted battle to maintain a base in Denmark without a CLA.
 
HHScot
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 6:02 pm

PanHAM wrote:
The whole things is a Ryanair bashing, the Airport NIMBYs do not want low cost carriers at FRA.


You've got the nail on the head!

There's also a snobbery among a significant number of people here in Germany. I have friends who would never ever fly Ryanair or easyJet and only flew Air Berlin under protest. When they hear an aircraft they complain about "billing Airlines mit alten Schrottflieger" (low cost airlines flying old rust buckets) They don't let the facts get in the way of a good old moan!
 
PanHAM
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 6:09 pm

When you live in Raunheim you get not even 30% of the landings over your head. 70% fly in from the east.

FR had no Problems with curfews because mostt of the greenfield Airports do not have a curfew and are happy about each flight. That changed when they ran out of the femote fields and changed their Business model to include big hubs.

The main issue of their Business model however is to collect all the birds they send out in the Mornings back into the nest in the evening. No exceptions, no off base Hotels. That sets them apart from most other carriers serving FRA and makes them vulnerable to curfew regulations. But again, to make it clear, landings in the hour from 23h are legal. And the Allegation that FR lands past 11pm on purpose is laughable. I don't have the time zo check time tables, but flights from all 3 BCN Airports have an eta of 2240.
 
leghorn
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 6:34 pm

DominikR83 wrote:
I live in Raunheim(west of the airport) and the landing planes can be very loud(especially when a 747 is passing over ones head at approx. 1000 feet) so i can understand that there had to be a political deal with the villages aorund the airport to get the 4th runway.

I don't believe it is new A320s and 737-800s/Maxs that you are noticing at that time of night. As there shouldn't be much in the sky at that time of night around Frankfurt so perhaps go in to FlightRadar and note a few of the planes to see which ones are noisy.
I'm guessing it is older and/or bigger package holiday passenger planes or old freighter dogs.
Blanket nighttime bans are a blunt instrument if it is possible to classify the type of aircraft which are quiet enough to operate later in to the night.
 
PanHAM
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Wed May 09, 2018 8:45 pm

Late evening landings are mainly 738s and A320s and other smaller jets. These do the bulk of European Holiday föights. Heavis take off till 11pm but hardly any landings. The total issue is hysteric and totally over blown. The Monday demonstrations against noise is folklore and mainly by people 70 and older.

The curfew imposed in 2011 is not compatible with operational Needs at a Major hub Airport-simple as that.
 
FatCat
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 7:35 am

I'm guessing it is older and/or bigger package holiday passenger planes or old freighter dogs.


Too bad je olde freighters are not DC8s or 707s or 722s anymore... or Il-76, even better
 
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cougar15
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 7:58 am

PanHAM wrote:
Late evening landings are mainly 738s and A320s and other smaller jets. These do the bulk of European Holiday föights. Heavis take off till 11pm but hardly any landings. The total issue is hysteric and totally over blown. The Monday demonstrations against noise is folklore and mainly by people 70 and older.

The curfew imposed in 2011 is not compatible with operational Needs at a Major hub Airport-simple as that.


The trouble is (and we can argue as much as we like about the validity of the rules) that Ryanair in certain weeks makes up 80% of these late arrivals. It has nothing to do with NIMBY´s etc, it is hundreds of other airlines manage to work by the rule and one carrier thinks they do not apply to them! I am all for 24/7 at FRA, no question (and lived in Offenbach for years), but at present there is a rule everyone respects, but Ryanair seem to think it is a ´soft rule´ that does not apply to them. And that is what is not right, argue to have regulations changed, most certainly, but if everyone else manages to comply, so dam well should FR!
And to PanHam, you should know how much effort others carriers go to to comply, remember the saga of the Lufty Cargo MD11´s having to go through CGN.......

It costs other airlines, especially freight operators BIG money to comply with the current regulations, what makes MoL and FR think they are any different?
 
PanHAM
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 9:12 am

I think I have made it clear that FR stays well within the legal Limit and does not by far use up the average 7.5 flights per day that can arrive late. Other Airlines like LH and especially LHCargo have reduced flights or rescheduled flights. There has been a Stagnation since 2011 which is clearly due to the curfew. Only recently there is an increase in the movements again.

Ryanair is unique because oif the strict Business Modell to bring back all aircraft to the basee. If a flight would be diverted to HHN the outbound flight next morning would get cancelled as well and we all know how FR treats their passengers in that case. For sure at least 360 People would be affected and I doubt that so many would wake up in front of their tv sets because am FR 738 flies in over their houses.

Other carriers base aircraft in Turkey or in Spain to cope with the demand or schedule a double W pattern with an excursion from a Greek Island to the UK so that they can make three warm water rotations a day. LHCargo had to send MD11s as an emergency stop gap move . That was 2011 and LH has simply cut out several flights that would work only if operated at nights. That traffic is now trucked to CGN or LGG and does not fly on LH anymore. Most of it does not even go through FRA anymore, the trucks can go direct to the new departure Airports. Look at the Tonnage, it is Stagnation at around 2,2 mio tons, with annual increases below industry average.

The campaign against Ryanair is kicked off by the NIMBYs and the local press supports them. The gioal of the NIMBYs is a curfew from 10 pm to 6 am and a capping of the Overall movements to 380 K p.a.. And no Terminal three. That would destrony not only Fraport but many small and medium companies around FRA. It will be interesting to see how FR will cope. Delays are unavoidable most of the times and as said, a cost concious carrier like FR will not delay their aircraft on purpose. Also, the delays ar most of the time in the minutes. The supervising authorities in Darmstadt will have a hard time proving that purpose or negligence on behalf of FR is involved.
 
devron
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 10:26 am

leghorn wrote:
The article mentions a potential fine of 50,000 euro per incident. If the local government loses patience with them then they'll start enforcing the fines.
I think they are being indulged at the moment as they are new to the airport but they'll just be fined in to compliance and/or given last incoming slots earlier in the night. If FRA are really annoyed with them they'll find themselves landing at Hahn when they arrive late and that will give the pilots motivation to arrive on time.


The 50.000 is default maximum even when using you lawn mower.

Its Germany my neighbor just complained I was using the lawn mower on a national day off and yes it is much quiter then an airplane. I did stop as I do like 50.000 euro on my bank account (and it is raining).

LH had to make significant adjustments to their opperation (cargo specifically) after the court ruling that set this limitation in place.

https://lufthansa-cargo.com/-/lhc-press ... 11-page1-3
 
PanHAM
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 10:59 am

I guess it is "up to" and using a lawn mower on Good Friday would most likely not result in a fine.

What would hurt an Airline much more than a 50K fine is that the authority would cream off the "unlawful" Profit FR alledgedly has made by not diverting to HHN or CGN. That's where it really gets funny since "Profit" determined by a state authority has nothing to do with Profit in real, commercial life.

But agaoin, this is blown up and FR would take a ticket to court anyway. As long as they touch down by 23h59 they are within the legal Limit. IMMHO they would not even Need to prove the reasons.
 
KingOrGod
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 11:10 am

PanHAM wrote:
The gioal of the NIMBYs is a curfew from 10 pm to 6 am and a capping of the Overall movements to 380 K p.a.. And no Terminal three. That would destrony not only Fraport but many small and medium companies around FRA.


Agreed. What's between their ears seems to be denser than granite and not capable of understanding logic. The current curfew cost lots in lost revenue, not to mention all the ancillary services provided by people and companies in the region.

And to be fair, the aircraft have never been quieter than they are today. By all means have stricter noise regulations for aircraft to comply with (ie no IL76 at 2am, and even that dog of a 7478 is appallingly loud), but a total ban is rather shortsighted. Why do they not campaign for the A3, as well as rail lines, be closed at night. They generate a lot more noise for a longer period of time.

But hey, let's hate on the airport and aircraft, all the while googling for cheap flights, and ordering overnight packages etc. Typical.
 
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DominikR83
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 2:15 pm

As of now the night ban at FRA is not that big problem for the operations that many people think it is.
All operations can be easily done within the 5am to 11pm time frame.Due to the four runways and two terminals there are no airlines and routes which FRA had to deny due to missing capacity.And with terminal 3 opening in 2023 the problems - if they ever existed - will decrease even more.
I can understand all the people who are living near the airport for 30,40 or 50 years and never expected it to grow so much and to have so much traffic some time.But many of the people complaining about the airport have moved next to it within the last 20 years and these people must have known what the future will bring.They have bought nice houses or even built new ones for a much lower price than normal due to the proximity to the airport(and all the noise and pollution)
But once again, rules have to be followed by EVERYBODY including FR !
Yes,arrivals between 11pm and 12 am are in general allowed but only based on single exeption permissions by Fraport.If Fraport says no then the flight has to divert to another airport even if it is still 11:30 pm.Usually Fraport gives these permissions but if a carrier comes in late very often( like FR or in earlier days also DE) then there will be investigations to find out the reason for these delays. Anf if the investigations show that these delays can be avoided by changing the flight schedule a little then there will most likely by no permissions any more for this carrier.

I don`t think that FR comes in late regularly on purpose.But i`m absolutely sure that they just don`t care about it.Their schedule is extremely tight and they know that in case of even the smallest delay in their flight schedule during the day the latest flight will arrive too late at FRA.And they just don`t care what Fraport says.
 
PanHAM
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 2:36 pm

You are right, rules have to b followed. The paramount rules that have to be followed are safety rules. All that might add to delays.

You are not right when you say that excemptions are given by Fraport. They are not in Charge. the authority is with the State of Hesse Transport Ministry. FRhas, BTW a right to land. We are ruled by the law and the law allows These exceptions.. And there are always passengers affected who might pay back as voters when they are dumped at HHN around midnight with no way to go to FRA.

You are joking when you say here that the curfew is not that big of a Problem at FRA. In the first years almost every day an A380 or a 747 had to taxi back to the gate because ATC gave them taxi clearance at 22h30 but due to traffic was delayed and take off time went to 23h01. Each time up to a Million € went down the drain. OK, Airlines coped with that by reducing traffic in These hours. Traffic which went to other Gateways.

.The curfew is bad and has affected FRA because it is impractical and not logic. If the ruling had been practical, maning that an aircraft that was cleared to taxi up until 22h45 could leave, even if that meant an actual departure at 23h97, it would be OK But obviously that knowledge of Airport operations was not brought to the Attention of the judges.
 
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DominikR83
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 5:20 pm

If a person votes against a government because the airline did not follow the rules then this tells a lot about the character of this person and not about the government.
(sorry i mixed it up,of course the transport ministry is in charge for these exemptions)
I mean that the curfew did not automatically lead to a smaller number of scheduled flights at FRA.When this curfew started FRA had enough capacity to handle the exact same number of flights each year even with the curfew.Yes,the airlines had to change their flight schedules and depending on where the planes came from and had to go to this was quite complicated, but the curfew did not lead to less flights.Thats what i meant when i said "it is no big problem".
All scheduled flights can and could be handled between 5am and 11pm.

But i totally agree with you that it is totally stupid to let a plane leave its gate position and then let it taxi back because of a delay and take off time of 1-5 minutes after deadline.
Every plane which was given taxi clearance should also take off.If ATC has doubts that due to current traffic the plane will make it in time into the air they should not let it start pushing back.
 
Gabrielz
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 7:11 pm

Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but why doesn't clearance at FRA (or Eurocontrol) stop the aircraft from leaving its origin if they are going to miss the curfew? Just revoke clearance and make them stay at the outstation? The diversions are extra expensive, and should not be treated as a diversion (but rather a change in destination), IMHO.

-G
 
HHScot
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 7:24 pm

In that case you'd have (at least) 3 affected/cancelled flights. I also don't think that Eurocontrol could do that unless the destination airport was actually going to be closed.
 
PanHAM
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Thu May 10, 2018 8:20 pm

@dominikR83 why don't you go on adv.aero and see the numbers for yourself. Movements have been stagnating for the past years since 2011 as flights had to be taken out of the System. I could give you many examples, just one City I very often flew to, LHR. KH has hourly flights to and from, the last flight used to be at 9 pm,with an eta of 11h30, after the curfew came in the last flight was 8 pm. FEDEX moved most of zheir flights to CGN, an so on.

And the icing on the cake was that the NIMBYs took that to prove that there was no Need to build the new landings only runway.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Fri May 11, 2018 11:45 am

PanHAM wrote:
In the first years almost every day an A380 or a 747 had to taxi back to the gate because ATC gave them taxi clearance at 22h30 but due to traffic was delayed and take off time went to 23h01. Each time up to a Million € went down the drain.

Wow, I didn't know it happened that often. I just remember one report about a fully loaded QF B747 that was actually on time but some passengers didn't show up and until the time they had found the corresponding luggage they were too late and everybody had to leave the aircraft... What a waste of resources, money... I hope any judge would understand such a rule is not appropriate.

PanHAM wrote:
The curfew is bad and has affected FRA because it is impractical and not logic.

Hehe, maybe we need a little German Trump to renegotiate this "one-sided deal that should have never, ever been made." / "worst deal ever"... ;-)

DominikR83 wrote:
Raunheim

Cheers! Grew up in Ruesselsheim... no miracle I became an aviation enthusiast... (the only other alternative is becoming a NIMBY).

FatCat wrote:
I was in Frankfurt on a business trip in Feb and my hotel was in Offenbach

I hope you had an acceptable hotel. I am sometimes shocked about the hotels within the Frankfurt area... and Offenbach isn't that attractive (sorry Cougar or any a-netter from Offe'bach..)
 
PanHAM
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Fri May 11, 2018 12:54 pm

Your exampel of the delayed QF747 (they left FRA shortly afterwards) Shows that the judges who wrote the sharü curfews into the building permission either were not Aware about the many rules that are mandatory to be observed or they simply did not casre.

Passengers who are checked in but not board the flight get their checked luggage off loaded. No ramp Agent who wants to Keep his Job will Bypass that rule,. It cannot be that following the rules will lead into a Commercial loss in the high six Digits.
That part of the permitt has to be renegotiated, not only for that reason but also for the fact that aircraft become less noisy with every new Generation. Lufthansas last schedules Long range departurs are timed at etd 22h05 and even with that buffer things can go wrong.

BTW, Offenbach is the Bronx of Metro Frankfurt
 
r2rho
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Re: arriving after 23:00 in Frankfurt main

Tue May 15, 2018 12:21 pm

Shouldn't this policy be reviewed and instead of a blanket(sic) ban shouldn't more modern quieter planes be allowed to land at night using the equivalent fo the green sticker on the windscreen of german cars e.g. if your machine doesn't conform to certain standards then you aren't welcome around here(at this time of night).

You are looking for a rational explanation to this. Yet the politicians who decided on the night ban did not base their decision on rational thinking, but on ideology. Good luck trying to reason with them.
It was also part of the deal to allow the 4th "half-runway" (only landings are allowed, no takeoffs). So its seems Fraport was willing to sacrifice night flights for more daytime ones. Thouh I wonder if they really expected to be burdened with such a strict, inflexible blanket ban.
Sure, introducing a system that penalizes noisy aircraft and favors modern ones would make a lot more sense, and would actually be enviromentally much more effective than treating an A320NEO and an MD-11F the same way. But for these people, all flying is evil, without distinction.
FRA is a very expensive piece of infrastructure to be leaving idle for many hours each day.

It is also the primary gateway to the world of Europe's number 1 economy... still. When MUC gets its third runway approved, FRA will become less significant.

I can just see the BFU Accident Report published sometime in 2026 after some airline's anxious drivers ram their plane into the ground at FRA because they were too motivated to battle the crosswind and windshear and land before 23:00 local rather than have to position to HHN..

European politicians are increasingly placing safety and noise abatement at equal levels on their priority list, so I'm afraid you will eventually be proven right.

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