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yhu wrote:Are Encore pilots separate from the mainline group?
The airline will try to operate if there is a full strike, he said.
yhu wrote:Are Encore pilots separate from the mainline group?
Dominion301 wrote:yhu wrote:Are Encore pilots separate from the mainline group?
That's a good question.
From the article:The airline will try to operate if there is a full strike, he said.
Assuming Encore pilots are separate from mainline, other than wet leasing every available spare 737 out there from the likes of Air North, Canadian North, First Air, etc., how?
It's ironic how the current banner on AC's homepage says 'Book with confidence'. https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home.html
In a press release, Montreal-based Air Canada said "it is ready to adjust its schedules and capacity to limit disruptions for the traveling public and to ensure that customers get to their destinations in the event of a labour disruption," at its Calgary-based rival.
It's a repeat of the stunt that WestJet pulled on Air Canada back in 2011, when Air Canada was facing a looming strike of its own.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-can ... -1.4637093
Dominion301 wrote:
Assuming Encore pilots are separate from mainline, other than wet leasing every available spare 737 out there from the likes of Air North, Canadian North, First Air, etc., how?
berari wrote:And there you have it, Westjet has grown to be a full airline folks ... it now has to deal with big boy issues.
I was surprised to hear that they were looking to hire WS pilots to fly for SWOOP, by offering them leaves of absence. Shoddy practices that would not make their existing employees happy.
And today there was that article about snooping and recording employees/the service that came out.
WS is no longer that cute little airline.
Alias1024 wrote:Dominion301 wrote:
Assuming Encore pilots are separate from mainline, other than wet leasing every available spare 737 out there from the likes of Air North, Canadian North, First Air, etc., how?
I doubt wet leasing will be much of an option. Air Transat, Canadian North, and First Air are all fellow ALPA groups. It’s extremely unlikely that they would take on struck work, especially from another pilot group in the same union.
Encore is also ALPA, but a separate group from WestJet. They would fly their normally scheduled flights, but will doubtlessly be in close coordination with WestJet union leadership to ensure that no extra sections are operated that are covering for struck work.
Given the increasingly close relationship between WestJet and Delta, I’m sure DAL ALPA is monitoring the situation too to make sure no extra trans-border flights are operated to cover for WestJet.
FlyinRabbit88 wrote:If WestJet pilots do strike and if WestJet makes the choice to have say encore or other possible contract pilots to fly struck work, they would be considered scabs FOREVER even when someone dies their names never get erased from the scab list. Now in the digital age, it’s very hard to hide if someone decides to cross a picket line. The inter webs got the full resume/background and address of the FO who decided to cross the picket line during the spirit strike, and posted it even before they landed.
Hope WestJet pilots get the contract they deserve. Culture doesn’t pay the bills.
1900Driver wrote:berari wrote:And there you have it, Westjet has grown to be a full airline folks ... it now has to deal with big boy issues.
I was surprised to hear that they were looking to hire WS pilots to fly for SWOOP, by offering them leaves of absence. Shoddy practices that would not make their existing employees happy.
And today there was that article about snooping and recording employees/the service that came out.
WS is no longer that cute little airline.
They never were cute. Resorting to tactics like going through your competitors garbage & having the CEO overtly state the need to throw out employees that don’t fit their “yes men model”, is hardly cute.
The perception of being cute by offering free yoga classes, but at the expense of benefits shows what it is truly like to work at Westjet.
Super80Fan wrote:As always, the passengers are the ones who get the punishment during fights between the employees, unions, and corporate. That is why when I hear of passengers yelling/swearing/treating front-line employees badly, I yawn. We pay for a service, we should get it.
Dominion301 wrote:yhu wrote:Are Encore pilots separate from the mainline group?
That's a good question.
From the article:The airline will try to operate if there is a full strike, he said.
Assuming Encore pilots are separate from mainline, other than wet leasing every available spare 737 out there from the likes of Air North, Canadian North, First Air, etc., how?
It's ironic how the current banner on AC's homepage says 'Book with confidence'. https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home.html
Super80Fan wrote:As always, the passengers are the ones who get the punishment during fights between the employees, unions, and corporate. That is why when I hear of passengers yelling/swearing/treating front-line employees badly, I yawn. We pay for a service, we should get it.
Dominion301 wrote:Alias1024 wrote:Dominion301 wrote:
Assuming Encore pilots are separate from mainline, other than wet leasing every available spare 737 out there from the likes of Air North, Canadian North, First Air, etc., how?
I doubt wet leasing will be much of an option. Air Transat, Canadian North, and First Air are all fellow ALPA groups. It’s extremely unlikely that they would take on struck work, especially from another pilot group in the same union.
Encore is also ALPA, but a separate group from WestJet. They would fly their normally scheduled flights, but will doubtlessly be in close coordination with WestJet union leadership to ensure that no extra sections are operated that are covering for struck work.
Given the increasingly close relationship between WestJet and Delta, I’m sure DAL ALPA is monitoring the situation too to make sure no extra trans-border flights are operated to cover for WestJet.
That’s so very true. I forgot about that. I guess “try to operate “ = fly Encore routes only.
How does a YYT-YHZ-YOW-YYZ-YQT-YWG-YXE-YEG-YLW-YVR-YYJ Q400 transcon sound? An avgeek’s dream?
kalvado wrote:This is a great thread. Literally a textbook example of how to turn someone from being union- neutral to mildly union-curious into a strong anti-union in 3 minutes.
N353SK wrote:Nobody strikes to hurt the passengers. They strike because they have exhausted all other options.
longhauler wrote:N353SK wrote:Nobody strikes to hurt the passengers. They strike because they have exhausted all other options.
That's how I see this chain of events.
The Westjet pilots don't want to strike. They don't want anything outlandish, they just want the opportunity to negotiate. It appears that option has been continually denied them! Hopefully, this turn of events will bring the parties together at the negotiating table.
FlyinRabbit88 wrote:If WestJet pilots do strike and if WestJet makes the choice to have say encore or other possible contract pilots to fly struck work, they would be considered scabs FOREVER even when someone dies their names never get erased from the scab list. Now in the digital age, it’s very hard to hide if someone decides to cross a picket line. The inter webs got the full resume/background and address of the FO who decided to cross the picket line during the spirit strike, and posted it even before they landed.
Hope WestJet pilots get the contract they deserve. Culture doesn’t pay the bills.
kalvado wrote:This is a great thread. Literally a textbook example of how to turn someone from being union- neutral to mildly union-curious into a strong anti-union in 3 minutes.
roadpilot wrote:Super80Fan wrote:As always, the passengers are the ones who get the punishment during fights between the employees, unions, and corporate. That is why when I hear of passengers yelling/swearing/treating front-line employees badly, I yawn. We pay for a service, we should get it.
I yawn every time a self entitled passenger gets put in their place by a front line employee. Just because you pay for a service doesn't mean you get to act like a donkey
longhauler wrote:N353SK wrote:Nobody strikes to hurt the passengers. They strike because they have exhausted all other options.
That's how I see this chain of events.
The Westjet pilots don't want to strike. They don't want anything outlandish, they just want the opportunity to negotiate. It appears that option has been continually denied them! Hopefully, this turn of events will bring the parties together at the negotiating table.
longhauler wrote:N353SK wrote:Nobody strikes to hurt the passengers. They strike because they have exhausted all other options.
That's how I see this chain of events.
The Westjet pilots don't want to strike. They don't want anything outlandish, they just want the opportunity to negotiate. It appears that option has been continually denied them! Hopefully, this turn of events will bring the parties together at the negotiating table.
goboeing wrote:kalvado wrote:This is a great thread. Literally a textbook example of how to turn someone from being union- neutral to mildly union-curious into a strong anti-union in 3 minutes.
If the preceding fifteen replies to a post on the airliners.net Civil Aviation forum were all it took to change your mind on a topic, I'm thinking you didn't really have much of an opinion of your own to begin with.
kalvado wrote:longhauler wrote:N353SK wrote:Nobody strikes to hurt the passengers. They strike because they have exhausted all other options.
That's how I see this chain of events.
The Westjet pilots don't want to strike. They don't want anything outlandish, they just want the opportunity to negotiate. It appears that option has been continually denied them! Hopefully, this turn of events will bring the parties together at the negotiating table.goboeing wrote:kalvado wrote:This is a great thread. Literally a textbook example of how to turn someone from being union- neutral to mildly union-curious into a strong anti-union in 3 minutes.
If the preceding fifteen replies to a post on the airliners.net Civil Aviation forum were all it took to change your mind on a topic, I'm thinking you didn't really have much of an opinion of your own to begin with.
ANd the way me as a passenger sees this is that pilots not only going to strike - which is sort of OK for me, maybe, as part of labor dispute - but also explicitly want to block any attempts to accomodate affected passengers, which is not too unlike taking hostages.
And while we're at this - do you guys know any company which works on single pilot technology? May be a good investment for my money..
roadpilot wrote:Super80Fan wrote:As always, the passengers are the ones who get the punishment during fights between the employees, unions, and corporate. That is why when I hear of passengers yelling/swearing/treating front-line employees badly, I yawn. We pay for a service, we should get it.
I yawn every time a self entitled passenger gets put in their place by a front line employee. Just because you pay for a service doesn't mean you get to act like a donkey
diverted wrote:
Not the case at all. The other ALPA carriers would be showing solidarity with the WS ALPA members. Why would you undermine other dues paying members? No one is being held hostage. If you're concerned that labour action might disrupt your plans, book a different carrier. Seems simple enough.
Of course it's the passengers that lose. Which is why WS pilots have said specifically as a show of good faith they won't strike over the long weekend.
Again, they aren't asking for the world, they just want to be compensated for the job they're doing similarly to other pilot groups. And before you say they could leave and go somewhere else, it's really easy to say when you're not the one who would lose years of seniority and have to go to the bottom of the payscale and seniority list somewhere else, holding a reserve block.
Super80Fan wrote:roadpilot wrote:Super80Fan wrote:As always, the passengers are the ones who get the punishment during fights between the employees, unions, and corporate. That is why when I hear of passengers yelling/swearing/treating front-line employees badly, I yawn. We pay for a service, we should get it.
I yawn every time a self entitled passenger gets put in their place by a front line employee. Just because you pay for a service doesn't mean you get to act like a donkey
Maybe do your job and it wouldn't happen as much? I treat frontline employees the way I want to be treated, not bothering them unless I need something, saying please and thank you, making small talk etc. The nice thing about going to an aviation school is that I have contacts at almost every major airline. In the rare occasion one of you start acting up, I call one of my friends in corporate and that usually resolves the issue.
Fly the dang plane, you're still getting paid to do so and many others are relying on you to keep that schedule going.
kalvado wrote:diverted wrote:
Not the case at all. The other ALPA carriers would be showing solidarity with the WS ALPA members. Why would you undermine other dues paying members? No one is being held hostage. If you're concerned that labour action might disrupt your plans, book a different carrier. Seems simple enough.
Of course it's the passengers that lose. Which is why WS pilots have said specifically as a show of good faith they won't strike over the long weekend.
Again, they aren't asking for the world, they just want to be compensated for the job they're doing similarly to other pilot groups. And before you say they could leave and go somewhere else, it's really easy to say when you're not the one who would lose years of seniority and have to go to the bottom of the payscale and seniority list somewhere else, holding a reserve block.
So you strike against passengers, not only against company. Case closed.
And seniority is something fully supported by the union, as far as I understand. Was there any attempt to make total hours count towards position at a different carrier, for example? I don't think so. Because that will, ugh, undermine standing of other dues paying members...
jimbo737 wrote:1900Driver wrote:berari wrote:And there you have it, Westjet has grown to be a full airline folks ... it now has to deal with big boy issues.
I was surprised to hear that they were looking to hire WS pilots to fly for SWOOP, by offering them leaves of absence. Shoddy practices that would not make their existing
They never were cute. Resorting to tactics like going through your competitors garbage.....
Get your story straight.
It wasn’t WestJet who were digging through garbage at 574 Island Road in Victoria in Feb and March 2003 and were caught twice, with photographic evidence of the team in the rented white pick up truck from Richmond BC doing so, with evidence later obtained indicating such practices may have been, um, a little more common and geographically diverse than people might want to believe.
jimbo737 wrote:1900Driver wrote:berari wrote:And there you have it, Westjet has grown to be a full airline folks ... it now has to deal with big boy issues.
I was surprised to hear that they were looking to hire WS pilots to fly for SWOOP, by offering them leaves of absence. Shoddy practices that would not make their existing
They never were cute. Resorting to tactics like going through your competitors garbage.....
Get your story straight.
It wasn’t WestJet who were digging through garbage at 574 Island Road in Victoria in Feb and March 2003 and were caught twice, with photographic evidence of the team in the rented white pick up truck from Richmond BC doing so, with evidence later obtained indicating such practices may have been, um, a little more common and geographically diverse than people might want to believe.
diverted wrote:Now, explain to me how pilots are supposed to strike against the company and not affect passengers? The only thing I can think of is a bus strike where the bus drivers kept driving, but refused to accept payment for fares. Unfortunately pilots can't do that, or I'm sure they would. I'd still rather an organized strike where you have advanced notice and can change your travel plans, as opposed to a wildcat strike, or pilots grounding aircraft for every little snag.
Again, it's not like the pilots are asking for the world. They just want an industry standard contract. Considering WS has made a profit every quarter for what, 13 consecutive years now, I think that's entirely fair.
diverted wrote:Not the case at all. The other ALPA carriers would be showing solidarity with the WS ALPA members. Why would you undermine other dues paying members? No one is being held hostage. If you're concerned that labour action might disrupt your plans, book a different carrier. Seems simple enough.
kalvado wrote:And while we're at this - do you guys know any company which works on single pilot technology? May be a good investment for my money..
YULACYYZ wrote:jimbo737 wrote:1900Driver wrote:
This is the story!
It was Air Canada that went through Mark Hill's garbages for retrieving hard copies of AC corporate data. He was a Westjet executive that was passed along a password from a former Canadian Airlines employee who had still access to the AC website, that was at one point accessed more than 4,500 times or so. Westjet matched every major route scheduled to Air Canada plus they had all data on passengers loads. A private investigator hired by AC, followed Hill on an Air Canada flight to Miami with his girlfriend and it is that event that prompted the lawsuit. They sat next to each other as Hill was working along on his computer, apparently being cocky and all. Westjet fired Hill and settled the case for money given to charity.
kalvado wrote:I am considering single pilot operation as a step to fully automatic one AND as a way to create surplus of pilots. Which should help a bit..
goboeing wrote:kalvado wrote:And while we're at this - do you guys know any company which works on single pilot technology? May be a good investment for my money..
Actually kalvado, WestJet could be an operator of single pilot aircraft (i.e. CapeAir C402s right now, or single-pilot 737s a hundred years from now), but this issue would still be the same in that case.
The single-pilot aircraft pilots of that hypothetical WestJet would still be using the system to advance towards the option of a strike in this time of stalled negotiations.
So, your point is moot.
berari wrote:Of course you and I know about their espionage, the corporate culture that went down the shits when it became more about the shareholder and less about the company/people/culture.
longhauler wrote:Labour law in Canada allows for a negotiating process. While the pilots have tried over the past year, the previous CEO refused to even acknowledge the requests. Some may come hard against unions, but it is just these bullying tactics that justify the very union's existance.
So ... after a year of trying, with no progess, how would the anti-union, anti-strike, a-netters on here resolve this issue? Remember, this strike process is entirely legal within the labour code of Canada and after a long involved process, it is the last resort.
AWACSooner wrote:berari wrote:Of course you and I know about their espionage, the corporate culture that went down the shits when it became more about the shareholder and less about the company/people/culture.
This could explain in a nutshell why there are so many WN loyalists out there...while there have been a lot of corporate moves in the past decade that have been geared towards the shareholder, they still have some semblance of staying true to their culture in that airline (e.g. "bags fly free"), and not completely foresaking it just to completely nickel and dime the customer while simultaneously driving company morale into the ground.
RJLover wrote:I would attempt to resolve the issue between me and my employer the same way the millions of non-unionized employees* in Canada already do. If you are no longer comfortable with the pay/benefits you currently receive, you talk to your employer about it. If your employer is unwilling to budge on any mark, then you have two choices. You accept what you are currently paid, or you seek employment elsewhere (be it a different job within the company or with a different employer altogether).
kalvado wrote:RJLover wrote:I would attempt to resolve the issue between me and my employer the same way the millions of non-unionized employees* in Canada already do. If you are no longer comfortable with the pay/benefits you currently receive, you talk to your employer about it. If your employer is unwilling to budge on any mark, then you have two choices. You accept what you are currently paid, or you seek employment elsewhere (be it a different job within the company or with a different employer altogether).
And it is mentioned in any of these discussions:
in many industries you can leave one company and likely get an equal or better position at another company. Seniority system at airlines - and the fact that there are only 2 types of pilot positions at the airline, captain and FO; and few, if any, performance metrics for a pilot - creates unique environment where career (or lack thereof in many aspects) is locked to a certain carrier. Which is another big problem here, empowering both airline and union - but not rank-and-file flight crew members... So your advice is only that good for airlines.
RJLover wrote:If you are no longer comfortable with the pay/benefits you currently receive, you talk to your employer about it. If your employer is unwilling to budge on any mark, then you have two choices. You accept what you are currently paid, or you seek employment elsewhere (be it a different job within the company or with a different employer altogether).
longhauler wrote:RJLover wrote:If you are no longer comfortable with the pay/benefits you currently receive, you talk to your employer about it. If your employer is unwilling to budge on any mark, then you have two choices. You accept what you are currently paid, or you seek employment elsewhere (be it a different job within the company or with a different employer altogether).
I agree with you 100%.
In fact, I am guessing a thousand Westjet pilots would also agree. Because, what you just described is what has been denied the Westjet pilots. It's called "negotiation". The only difference is that 1000 pilots can not have that encounter, one on one, it is virtually impossible, so they elect an association to represent their best interests.
jimbo737 wrote:1900Driver wrote:berari wrote:And there you have it, Westjet has grown to be a full airline folks ... it now has to deal with big boy issues.
I was surprised to hear that they were looking to hire WS pilots to fly for SWOOP, by offering them leaves of absence. Shoddy practices that would not make their existing
They never were cute. Resorting to tactics like going through your competitors garbage.....
Get your story straight.
It wasn’t WestJet who were digging through garbage at 574 Island Road in Victoria in Feb and March 2003 and were caught twice, with photographic evidence of the team in the rented white pick up truck from Richmond BC doing so, with evidence later obtained indicating such practices may have been, um, a little more common and geographically diverse than people might want to believe.
ExMilitaryEng wrote:Quite well explained longhauler.
My only beef would be that the "rapport de force" is somewhat unfair in a capital intensive business like the airlines.
Any pilot strikes have catastrophic consequences to the airline. Better settle (even with outrageous demands) than face a strike. That explains why historically, airlines lost more money than it ever gained.
RJLover wrote:longhauler wrote:RJLover wrote:If you are no longer comfortable with the pay/benefits you currently receive, you talk to your employer about it. If your employer is unwilling to budge on any mark, then you have two choices. You accept what you are currently paid, or you seek employment elsewhere (be it a different job within the company or with a different employer altogether).
I agree with you 100%.
In fact, I am guessing a thousand Westjet pilots would also agree. Because, what you just described is what has been denied the Westjet pilots. It's called "negotiation". The only difference is that 1000 pilots can not have that encounter, one on one, it is virtually impossible, so they elect an association to represent their best interests.
I'd say while they would probably mostly agree, it wouldn't be quite 100%! If they did agree with 100% of my position they'd be walking out the door permanently.
Westjet was a successful non-unionized airline for more then 20 years, so there must have been avenues available to be able to meet with their direct supervisor(s). It wouldn't necessarily be easy or quick, but there has to be or else there would be no opportunity for any employee to talk to management about anything (safety concerns, suggestions for improvement, etc). That being said, It would be extremely unlikely that all 1,000 pilots would have had a discussion about pay; many people simply don't have the stomach for tough in-person negotiations. There is way less pressure to stand behind a professional representative and cast an anonymous ballot.
But they have definitely not ended up in a position with "no other options". Every single one of Westjet's pilots can call their Chief Pilot right now and give their two weeks notice. No one is forcing them to remain an employee of a company that apparently hasn't been interested in discussing improvements to their compensation.