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LAXintl
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ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Fri May 11, 2018 8:34 pm

ALPA last year sued the DOT claiming its decision to issue operating authority for Norwegian International was made on incorrect grounds.

The case was argued back in February and today the United States Court of Appeals in D.C. issued its decision.


"Petition fails on the merits as neither federal law nor international agreement requires the Secretary to deny a permit on freestanding public-interest grounds where, as here, an applicant satisfies the requirements for obtaining a permit."

=

No. 17-1012
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UPlog
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Fri May 11, 2018 8:52 pm

ALPA was always wasting their time, though they certainly mucked things up and slowed the process down for Norwegian at the expense of flying public.
I fly your boxes
 
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janders
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Fri May 11, 2018 9:04 pm

I never realized ALPA decided to sue the DOT.

Thank you ALPA for wasting my taxpayer money having to defend the DOT decision. :banghead:
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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mercure1
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Fri May 11, 2018 10:16 pm

Guess pilot union never gave up. Maybe they will now.
mercure f-wtcc
 
SonaSounds
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Fri May 11, 2018 11:18 pm

mcdu wrote:
janders wrote:
I never realized ALPA decided to sue the DOT.

Thank you ALPA for wasting my taxpayer money having to defend the DOT decision. :banghead:


Tax dollars? Seriously, you think ALPA is funded by tax dollars?

Google ALPA and you may be surprised.


Reread his post. His comment is about the courts and the government having to defend their position which is tax payer dollars.......
 
mcdu
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Fri May 11, 2018 11:18 pm

janders wrote:
I never realized ALPA decided to sue the DOT.

Thank you ALPA for wasting my taxpayer money having to defend the DOT decision. :banghead:


Tax dollars? Seriously, you think ALPA is funded by tax dollars?

Google ALPA and you may be surprised.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Fri May 11, 2018 11:23 pm

DOJ had to spend tax dollars defending DOT's authority to make such decisions.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MIflyer12
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Fri May 11, 2018 11:42 pm

This probably looks weird to the many non-American participants on this forum, so let me offer the very short version:

Parties with standing (basically, anybody who can show direct damages) can sue a U.S. government agency to compel agency to show it followed the law. That means following defined rule-making practice and consideration of facts in evidence.

ALPA lawyers had to know this was unlikely to succeed.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 3:20 am

UPlog wrote:
ALPA was always wasting their time, though they certainly mucked things up and slowed the process down for Norwegian at the expense of flying public.


I hope you know you’ll be wasting your time the next time you ask an alpa pilot if you can see the flight deck and take pictures. No. No you can’t.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 4:15 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
UPlog wrote:
ALPA was always wasting their time, though they certainly mucked things up and slowed the process down for Norwegian at the expense of flying public.


I hope you know you’ll be wasting your time the next time you ask an alpa pilot if you can see the flight deck and take pictures. No. No you can’t.

I'm sure most ALPA pilots aren't like that, but that was just petty.
 
IPFreely
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 4:20 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
This probably looks weird to the many non-American participants on this forum, so let me offer the very short version:

Parties with standing (basically, anybody who can show direct damages) can sue a U.S. government agency to compel agency to show it followed the law. That means following defined rule-making practice and consideration of facts in evidence.

ALPA lawyers had to know this was unlikely to succeed.


It would be nice if the law forced ALPA to pay the government's cost of defense should they lose the case. That little adder to the law would stop all frivolous lawsuits like this one before they ever get started.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 5:06 am

NeBaNi wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
UPlog wrote:
ALPA was always wasting their time, though they certainly mucked things up and slowed the process down for Norwegian at the expense of flying public.


I hope you know you’ll be wasting your time the next time you ask an alpa pilot if you can see the flight deck and take pictures. No. No you can’t.

I'm sure most ALPA pilots aren't like that, but that was just petty.


Go ahead and tell an alpa pilot -or any union pilot- your thoughts on NAI and see how it goes over.
 
bgm
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 6:24 am

mcdu wrote:
janders wrote:
I never realized ALPA decided to sue the DOT.

Thank you ALPA for wasting my taxpayer money having to defend the DOT decision. :banghead:


Tax dollars? Seriously, you think ALPA is funded by tax dollars?

Google ALPA and you may be surprised.


Who do you think funds the DOT?

Google it and you may be surprised.
 
rbavfan
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 7:32 am

mcdu wrote:
janders wrote:
I never realized ALPA decided to sue the DOT.

Thank you ALPA for wasting my taxpayer money having to defend the DOT decision. :banghead:


Tax dollars? Seriously, you think ALPA is funded by tax dollars?

Google ALPA and you may be surprised.



Yes when the ALPA sued the government agency the government has to spend tax money to fight the lawsuit. the ALPA has to use their own money to file it. So yes the ALPA cost tax payers money!
 
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zeke
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 7:35 am

LAXintl wrote:
DOJ had to spend tax dollars defending DOT's authority to make such decisions.


And what is wrong with that ? Move to China if you want to be in a country where employees cannot challenge government decisions.

I for one am very happy that those checks and balances are in place to protect local employees, and essentially the governments tax base.

If all of ALPA flying was done by NAI, care to guess where the corporate and income tax would go ?
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Mortyman
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 11:10 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
UPlog wrote:
ALPA was always wasting their time, though they certainly mucked things up and slowed the process down for Norwegian at the expense of flying public.


I hope you know you’ll be wasting your time the next time you ask an alpa pilot if you can see the flight deck and take pictures. No. No you can’t.


Such a petty comment.

I like to remind you that it's the passengers, regardless of political standpoint , financial situtation etc that is flying with US Airlines that allows pilots and crews in the US to have a job with an airline in the first place.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 1:52 pm

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
NeBaNi wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:

I hope you know you’ll be wasting your time the next time you ask an alpa pilot if you can see the flight deck and take pictures. No. No you can’t.

I'm sure most ALPA pilots aren't like that, but that was just petty.


Go ahead and tell an alpa pilot -or any union pilot- your thoughts on NAI and see how it goes over.

Why would I? If I'm ever in the flight deck, it's to appreciate the aircraft. Why would I want to poke the bear and get into an argument over ALPA and/or NAI? It's like going to a church or a mosque and arguing about the respective religion being a violent one. (Note before I get flamed: I don't actually believe either is, but I just mentioned it as an analogy.)
 
mcdu
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 3:01 pm

bgm wrote:
mcdu wrote:
janders wrote:
I never realized ALPA decided to sue the DOT.

Thank you ALPA for wasting my taxpayer money having to defend the DOT decision. :banghead:


Tax dollars? Seriously, you think ALPA is funded by tax dollars?

Google ALPA and you may be surprised.


Who do you think funds the DOT?

Google it and you may be surprised.


ALPA did not waste tax payers dollars. ALPA spent dues dollars lodging the suit they felt was justified.
 
bgm
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 3:13 pm

mcdu wrote:
bgm wrote:
mcdu wrote:

Tax dollars? Seriously, you think ALPA is funded by tax dollars?

Google ALPA and you may be surprised.


Who do you think funds the DOT?

Google it and you may be surprised.


ALPA did not waste tax payers dollars. ALPA spent dues dollars lodging the suit they felt was justified.


The DOT had to waste dollars fighting ALPA's frivolous lawsuit. Taxpayers fund the DOT/DOJ. Anyway, glad to see sense prevailed and it was thrown out.
 
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UPlog
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 4:01 pm

Norwegian is no more a flag of convenience than US company that set up operations in Florida, Texas or South Carolina for example.

Be it Norway, UK, or Ireland, it's a single aviation market which means its under the same legal aviation framework.


p.s. - I am a UPS pilot and fully support vibrant market competition.
I fly your boxes
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 4:25 pm

UPlog wrote:
Norwegian is no more a flag of convenience than US company that set up operations in Florida, Texas or South Carolina for example.

Be it Norway, UK, or Ireland, it's a single aviation market which means its under the same legal aviation framework.


p.s. - I am a UPS pilot and fully support vibrant market competition.


Probably a management pilot, hired when IPA pilots were on furlough, with that attitude.
From my cold, dead hands
 
mcdu
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 4:41 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Norwegian is no more a flag of convenience than US company that set up operations in Florida, Texas or South Carolina for example.

Be it Norway, UK, or Ireland, it's a single aviation market which means its under the same legal aviation framework.


p.s. - I am a UPS pilot and fully support vibrant market competition.


Probably a management pilot, hired when IPA pilots were on furlough, with that attitude.


Spot on! I have heard lots of unsavory things about them.
 
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Acey559
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 4:52 pm

Unfortunate, but as mentioned up-thread, hopefully they’ll bleed out and do us all a favor. I had to chuckle at the WAI conference last year. Norwegian had a large booth set up (in the far corner away from the other airlines) and I never saw a single person approach the booth. Granted, I wasn’t watching the whole time, but it seemed they were basically shunned. I was very satisfied that people seemed to be aware of the threat they pose and chose to stay away.
 
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UPlog
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 5:02 pm

Sooner or later humans will be engineered out of piloting jobs. So whether this starts with cargo and evolves into fully autonomous craft, I'll let the experts figure out the path. Personally don't see point of betting against technology and societal evolution.
I fly your boxes
 
mcdu
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 9:09 pm

UPlog wrote:
Sooner or later humans will be engineered out of piloting jobs. So whether this starts with cargo and evolves into fully autonomous craft, I'll let the experts figure out the path. Personally don't see point of betting against technology and societal evolution.


Thanks for confirming the suspicion. Best of luck in your new career outside of avaiation.
 
flydude380
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sat May 12, 2018 9:40 pm

Disappointed... well done to ALPA for trying their best!
 
JBLUA320
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 1:06 am

ALPA's initial argument was that NAI had a remote pilot base in Singapore, but all the pilots were actually European and the airline didn't even serve Singapore. As a result of ALPA's pressure, the base was shut down over a year ago.

All of Norwegian's pilots are based in Europe and the United States and many of them work/are based in countries that are quite expensive to do business in, like the United Kingdom and France. I'm not sure what the sticking point is with ALPA now... the Singapore business (which was shady) was shut down. For these transatlantic flights, the cockpit crews are almost all primarily based in London and have positive space deadheads to/from work.

There is a lot of attention thrown on "cheap farmed out Asian labor" but the only Asian crew are a very small FA base in Bangkok who fly all of the BKK routes and some transatlantic during those trips. The rest are European and American (over 600 now in USA).

Now, if ALPA is concerned about the pay rates, then I think that's a separate argument, as the rates do not compare to what a US 787 pilot would make. But there isn't a recruitment problem at Norwegian, so for as long as qualified pilots want to work there, I think ALPA is picking the wrong fight. These pilots are unionized - almost the whole airline is unionized - so if they don't like the pay, they can fight that battle themselves.
 
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 1:33 am

santi319 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
mcdu wrote:

Legal and ethical are not synonymous. There are lots of unspeakable characters wrapped in Italian suits and ties that occupy the skyscrapers in a many cities. They are often legal but very unethical.

As was mentioned earlier, NOrwegian will be TU soon enough and not a factor. The margin call on them is going to be the fork in carcass.

For the people hired from the US by NOrwegian. There will always be people with issues that make them unhireable by reputable carriers. For them an airline NOrwegian will hire them. They make less than many of the regional carriers do in the states. That should be a red flag to anyone buying their tickets on price alone.


Ethical like UA beating people up? Or AA agents not following their policy and berating a mother? Or DL kicking off a guy for using the bathroom? Yeah most employees of the US3 treat the people who pay their salaries as the enemy.



You should definetly move to Saudi Arabia or the United Arab Emirates...


Basically every other country's airlines on the planet treat their customers with respect. And why should I move for admitting the truth, struck a nerve did I? Employees at the US3 don't respect their customers and certainly don't respect employees at other air carriers in the US let alone worldwide.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
santi319
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 3:34 am

Super80Fan wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Ethical like UA beating people up? Or AA agents not following their policy and berating a mother? Or DL kicking off a guy for using the bathroom? Yeah most employees of the US3 treat the people who pay their salaries as the enemy.



You should definetly move to Saudi Arabia or the United Arab Emirates...


Basically every other country's airlines on the planet treat their customers with respect. And why should I move for admitting the truth, struck a nerve did I? Employees at the US3 don't respect their customers and certainly don't respect employees at other air carriers in the US let alone worldwide.


I encourage to contact former employees from the ME3 airlines...

You will be SHOCKED to learn the stuff sheikhs and rich people get away with in those countries....
 
rbavfan
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 3:51 am

mcdu wrote:
bgm wrote:
mcdu wrote:

Tax dollars? Seriously, you think ALPA is funded by tax dollars?

Google ALPA and you may be surprised.


Who do you think funds the DOT?

Google it and you may be surprised.


ALPA did not waste tax payers dollars. ALPA spent dues dollars lodging the suit they felt was justified.


Yes and the result is the US Taxpayer has to pay for the governments end. So it cost tax payers money when ANY group sues a government agency.
 
mcdu
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 12:44 pm

rbavfan wrote:
mcdu wrote:
bgm wrote:

Who do you think funds the DOT?

Google it and you may be surprised.


ALPA did not waste tax payers dollars. ALPA spent dues dollars lodging the suit they felt was justified.


Yes and the result is the US Taxpayer has to pay for the governments end. So it cost tax payers money when ANY group sues a government agency.


Again, ALPA did not spend tax payers dollars. If ALPA has won would there be all this concern about tax payer dollars?

Can you % out the cost per tax payer that the DOT/J used in their defense? Or was this part of the allocated budget dollars from the government institutions? Also, had this suit not been filed would the tax payers have seen a decrease in their yearly tax obligation?
 
mcdu
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 12:49 pm

JBLUA320 wrote:
ALPA's initial argument was that NAI had a remote pilot base in Singapore, but all the pilots were actually European and the airline didn't even serve Singapore. As a result of ALPA's pressure, the base was shut down over a year ago.

All of Norwegian's pilots are based in Europe and the United States and many of them work/are based in countries that are quite expensive to do business in, like the United Kingdom and France. I'm not sure what the sticking point is with ALPA now... the Singapore business (which was shady) was shut down. For these transatlantic flights, the cockpit crews are almost all primarily based in London and have positive space deadheads to/from work.

There is a lot of attention thrown on "cheap farmed out Asian labor" but the only Asian crew are a very small FA base in Bangkok who fly all of the BKK routes and some transatlantic during those trips. The rest are European and American (over 600 now in USA).

Now, if ALPA is concerned about the pay rates, then I think that's a separate argument, as the rates do not compare to what a US 787 pilot would make. But there isn't a recruitment problem at Norwegian, so for as long as qualified pilots want to work there, I think ALPA is picking the wrong fight. These pilots are unionized - almost the whole airline is unionized - so if they don't like the pay, they can fight that battle themselves.


Do the pilots work work the company with their name on the side of airplane or do they work for a third party staffing company?
 
Mortyman
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 1:00 pm

mcdu wrote:
JBLUA320 wrote:
ALPA's initial argument was that NAI had a remote pilot base in Singapore, but all the pilots were actually European and the airline didn't even serve Singapore. As a result of ALPA's pressure, the base was shut down over a year ago.

All of Norwegian's pilots are based in Europe and the United States and many of them work/are based in countries that are quite expensive to do business in, like the United Kingdom and France. I'm not sure what the sticking point is with ALPA now... the Singapore business (which was shady) was shut down. For these transatlantic flights, the cockpit crews are almost all primarily based in London and have positive space deadheads to/from work.

There is a lot of attention thrown on "cheap farmed out Asian labor" but the only Asian crew are a very small FA base in Bangkok who fly all of the BKK routes and some transatlantic during those trips. The rest are European and American (over 600 now in USA).

Now, if ALPA is concerned about the pay rates, then I think that's a separate argument, as the rates do not compare to what a US 787 pilot would make. But there isn't a recruitment problem at Norwegian, so for as long as qualified pilots want to work there, I think ALPA is picking the wrong fight. These pilots are unionized - almost the whole airline is unionized - so if they don't like the pay, they can fight that battle themselves.


Do the pilots work work the company with their name on the side of airplane or do they work for a third party staffing company?


Do the pilots and cabincrew of US regionals work for the main airline of wich the fuselage is adorn with or is it a different airline With cheaper labour ?
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 1:46 pm

Mortyman wrote:
mcdu wrote:
JBLUA320 wrote:
ALPA's initial argument was that NAI had a remote pilot base in Singapore, but all the pilots were actually European and the airline didn't even serve Singapore. As a result of ALPA's pressure, the base was shut down over a year ago.

All of Norwegian's pilots are based in Europe and the United States and many of them work/are based in countries that are quite expensive to do business in, like the United Kingdom and France. I'm not sure what the sticking point is with ALPA now... the Singapore business (which was shady) was shut down. For these transatlantic flights, the cockpit crews are almost all primarily based in London and have positive space deadheads to/from work.

There is a lot of attention thrown on "cheap farmed out Asian labor" but the only Asian crew are a very small FA base in Bangkok who fly all of the BKK routes and some transatlantic during those trips. The rest are European and American (over 600 now in USA).

Now, if ALPA is concerned about the pay rates, then I think that's a separate argument, as the rates do not compare to what a US 787 pilot would make. But there isn't a recruitment problem at Norwegian, so for as long as qualified pilots want to work there, I think ALPA is picking the wrong fight. These pilots are unionized - almost the whole airline is unionized - so if they don't like the pay, they can fight that battle themselves.


Do the pilots work work the company with their name on the side of airplane or do they work for a third party staffing company?




Do the pilots and cabincrew of US regionals work for the main airline of wich the fuselage is adorn with or is it a different airline With cheaper labour ?


They work for a company that operates under the same labor laws and customs as the country they're from. And the name of the company who pays them is on the airplane, unlike any NAI crap
From my cold, dead hands
 
mcdu
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 2:10 pm

Mortyman wrote:
mcdu wrote:
JBLUA320 wrote:
ALPA's initial argument was that NAI had a remote pilot base in Singapore, but all the pilots were actually European and the airline didn't even serve Singapore. As a result of ALPA's pressure, the base was shut down over a year ago.

All of Norwegian's pilots are based in Europe and the United States and many of them work/are based in countries that are quite expensive to do business in, like the United Kingdom and France. I'm not sure what the sticking point is with ALPA now... the Singapore business (which was shady) was shut down. For these transatlantic flights, the cockpit crews are almost all primarily based in London and have positive space deadheads to/from work.

There is a lot of attention thrown on "cheap farmed out Asian labor" but the only Asian crew are a very small FA base in Bangkok who fly all of the BKK routes and some transatlantic during those trips. The rest are European and American (over 600 now in USA).

Now, if ALPA is concerned about the pay rates, then I think that's a separate argument, as the rates do not compare to what a US 787 pilot would make. But there isn't a recruitment problem at Norwegian, so for as long as qualified pilots want to work there, I think ALPA is picking the wrong fight. These pilots are unionized - almost the whole airline is unionized - so if they don't like the pay, they can fight that battle themselves.


Do the pilots work work the company with their name on the side of airplane or do they work for a third party staffing company?


Do the pilots and cabincrew of US regionals work for the main airline of wich the fuselage is adorn with or is it a different airline With cheaper labour ?


They don’t work for that carrier. However, their company name is by the entry door. They also most likely have a flow to the major carrier or a career path to the major carrier. They work under the same labor laws of the country their company is based. They also make more money than the pilots flying 787 for “that” airline.

Perhaps a disclaimer would be needed to detail where the crew is staffed on those aircraft. Maybe ALPA can sue to get that added so the customer is not have the misconception that they are flying on pilots and crew staffed by the carrier from Norway. Bit of false advertising
 
santi319
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 3:27 pm

I really dont get how people can defend them... its literally the worst thing that can happen in the US aviation (and to a lesser extent Europe).

How can you open US bases for a transatlantic airline, but the crews based there do NOT actually work for the airline in question, do not receive the same benefits, are not accountable for the actual airline procedures because they dont work for them... to me its crazy this is allowed....its already bad enough that the ground staff everywhere has been outsourced (how is that working out for you)..

I understand everyone wants cheap everything even if they outsource everyone, but the selfishness of people HAS to stop at one point!
 
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mercure1
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 3:44 pm

For those that call Norwegian a flag of convenience, you really fail to understand that Norway, Ireland, UK are not in any shape equivalent to nation like Liberia a true flag of convenience in the shipping business.
Norway, Ireland and UK have some of the strictest labor laws, and certainly are high-cost nations in comparison.

If Norwegian wanted to set up a real flag of convenience it could have done so in host of low cost 3rd world nations, not in 1st world Europe.


DiamondFlyer wrote:

They work for a company that operates under the same labor laws and customs as the country they're from. And the name of the company who pays them is on the airplane, unlike any NAI crap


Every Norwegian crew members works within the labor laws of the country including the hundreds of U.S. crew members. I have yet to see anyone prove Norwegian violates US or European employment labor laws.
mercure f-wtcc
 
mcdu
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 4:28 pm

mercure1 wrote:
For those that call Norwegian a flag of convenience, you really fail to understand that Norway, Ireland, UK are not in any shape equivalent to nation like Liberia a true flag of convenience in the shipping business.
Norway, Ireland and UK have some of the strictest labor laws, and certainly are high-cost nations in comparison.

If Norwegian wanted to set up a real flag of convenience it could have done so in host of low cost 3rd world nations, not in 1st world Europe.


DiamondFlyer wrote:

They work for a company that operates under the same labor laws and customs as the country they're from. And the name of the company who pays them is on the airplane, unlike any NAI crap


Every Norwegian crew members works within the labor laws of the country including the hundreds of U.S. crew members. I have yet to see anyone prove Norwegian violates US or European employment labor laws.


I don’t believe that is correct. The pilots were required to do a license conversion at their own cost to operate under JAR versus the US FAR’s and the more restrictive US FAR 117 rest rules.
 
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Aesma
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 11:27 pm

Do US pilots flying to Europe apply JAR ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Brickell305
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 11:41 pm

IPFreely wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
This probably looks weird to the many non-American participants on this forum, so let me offer the very short version:

Parties with standing (basically, anybody who can show direct damages) can sue a U.S. government agency to compel agency to show it followed the law. That means following defined rule-making practice and consideration of facts in evidence.

ALPA lawyers had to know this was unlikely to succeed.


It would be nice if the law forced ALPA to pay the government's cost of defense should they lose the case. That little adder to the law would stop all frivolous lawsuits like this one before they ever get started.

It would also stop a lot of legitimate lawsuits and make the justice system favor the wealthy even more.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Sun May 13, 2018 11:54 pm

mcdu wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
mcdu wrote:

Do the pilots work work the company with their name on the side of airplane or do they work for a third party staffing company?


Do the pilots and cabincrew of US regionals work for the main airline of wich the fuselage is adorn with or is it a different airline With cheaper labour ?


They don’t work for that carrier. However, their company name is by the entry door. They also most likely have a flow to the major carrier or a career path to the major carrier. They work under the same labor laws of the country their company is based. They also make more money than the pilots flying 787 for “that” airline.

Perhaps a disclaimer would be needed to detail where the crew is staffed on those aircraft. Maybe ALPA can sue to get that added so the customer is not have the misconception that they are flying on pilots and crew staffed by the carrier from Norway. Bit of false advertising


That’s sort of silly, no? Most DL pilots aren’t from the (Mississippi) Delta, and plenty of UA pilots are anything but united.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
charlienorth
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Mon May 14, 2018 12:06 am

Thank you ALPA for wasting my taxpayer money having to defend the DOT decision. .
Thank you ALPA for representing your membership and all U.S. airline employees in the process.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Mon May 14, 2018 12:40 am

mercure1 wrote:
For those that call Norwegian a flag of convenience, you really fail to understand that Norway, Ireland, UK are not in any shape equivalent to nation like Liberia a true flag of convenience in the shipping business.
Norway, Ireland and UK have some of the strictest labor laws, and certainly are high-cost nations in comparison.


Ireland lets its airlines outsource outside the EU, which is why the Singapore contracts were a thing. That's the flag of convenience at work.

The Singapore contracts are no longer a thing, which is unquestionably good. Norwegian isn't doing anything inappropriate at the moment (apart from some draconian scheduling and hiring practices, but that's something for the various states of its various certificates, or the EU itself, to get involved in), but there's always the chance that they could start, at which point it might be hard to stop them. So good on ALPA for keeping them honest.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mcdu
Posts: 1689
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Mon May 14, 2018 12:55 am

Aesma wrote:
Do US pilots flying to Europe apply JAR ?


US pilots are limited to certain registrations. N registered being the most common. They cannot exercise their privileges is the European registered aircraft. This the requirement for them to get license conversion at their own cost. Also they have to pay for their own type ratings. It should make someone think twice about the pilots accepting these positions. This is the highest hiring binge in recent history at the US3 and the LCC’s and the regionals. They all pay more for pilot wages than the contract company for the carrier in question. So who are these pilots willing to pay for their own training to be a contractor for Norwegian?
 
mcdu
Posts: 1689
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Mon May 14, 2018 3:01 am

Cubsrule wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

Do the pilots and cabincrew of US regionals work for the main airline of wich the fuselage is adorn with or is it a different airline With cheaper labour ?


They don’t work for that carrier. However, their company name is by the entry door. They also most likely have a flow to the major carrier or a career path to the major carrier. They work under the same labor laws of the country their company is based. They also make more money than the pilots flying 787 for “that” airline.

Perhaps a disclaimer would be needed to detail where the crew is staffed on those aircraft. Maybe ALPA can sue to get that added so the customer is not have the misconception that they are flying on pilots and crew staffed by the carrier from Norway. Bit of false advertising


That’s sort of silly, no? Most DL pilots aren’t from the (Mississippi) Delta, and plenty of UA pilots are anything but united.


What? The pilots flying for Norwegian are not employed by Norwegian. They are contractors through a third party. The 787’s and 737’s at DL, UA and even the WN are employed by those companies. I bet a passenger would be surprised of the terms their crew works under compared to the non ULCC option.

Again this is mostly likely beating a dead horse as the financials point toward a liquidation of Norwegian in the very near future.
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 727
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Re: ALPA loses lawsuit against DOT over Norwegian licences

Mon May 14, 2018 4:01 am

Contract agencies have been around ages.

An old friend flew for JAL for more than a decade during 1990s, and was employed by a Hawaii based company from which JAL contracted pilots. Know another person that flew for NCA Cargo also through a US based agency.
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