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cougar15
Posts: 1417
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 7:55 am

Would love to hear the ATC on the ground frequency on this one, surprised nobody has linked it yet (if available). Sadly I am too dumb for that!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
AVFCdownunder
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:12 am

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 10:47 am

For the benfit of the conversation, here's some footage which shows the position of the A321 in relation to the gate when it stopped.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1688410/Plane-crazy-Dozy-pilot-slices-passenger-jets-tail-fin.html
 
txjim
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:44 pm

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 1:44 pm

AVFCdownunder wrote:
For the benfit of the conversation, here's some footage which shows the position of the A321 in relation to the gate when it stopped.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1688410/Plane-crazy-Dozy-pilot-slices-passenger-jets-tail-fin.html

I thought the videos that followed the collision were even better!
 
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CALTECH
Posts: 3296
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 1:57 pm

The left seat occupier during operations is responsible for the safety of the aircraft. The A-321 leftseat driver followed procedure and stopped for a issue at the gate. The A-330 should have stopped also. The A-330 left seat driver is responsible for ensuring a safe taxi. The A-330 left seat driver is at fault. At least he would be at a certain airline here in the states. No one else is held accountable. Mitigating circumstances could be taken into account, but ultimately if you are driving the aircraft from the left seat, you are responsible.......
You are here.
 
Okie
Posts: 4040
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 3:44 pm

longhauler wrote:
I mention those, because where I fly, cockpit distraction has been the reason for ground navigation errors and SOPs have changed to mitigate those threats. We now can not push without our final load. If the runway changes, or load changes or performance changes ... we must STOP and follow a checklist. With these changes, (and a few more) our ground navigations errors have reduced to almost Zero!

Sorry, what, I am face down reloading the FMS, clear right, I will have the chicken. :shock:

Okie
 
Bradin
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 4:52 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Looking at the video and where the damage is, and assuming the Captain was steering at the time, then the Captain would not have had any view of the right wing from his seat on the Asiana A330.

This would then raise the question of what the First Officer was doing at the time as the impact was on his side. Running checklists and the other jobs needed to be out of the way before departure? Working the radio? Whatever the case, it's also going to be the case that the OZ was taxiing with permission down that taxiway and there would be an assumption that clearance means clear to proceed.


A clearance to taxi is only a clearance to use the taxiways for which the controller designated. It is not a blind clearance to run into anything on those taxiways. A good way to put it: if you have your blinker on that doesn’t excuse you to just ram into another car while merging. You still have to make sure you can physically perform that maneuver without hitting another car.


Many of you are confusing airmanship and liability.

If you look at the pictures with the firefighting engine, the A330 was taxiing on the centerline. The A321 is also within the apron lines and outside the taxiway, or almost.
The issue is that the A330's wingspan is wider than the taxiway and protrudes into the apron.

If you hold short of the gate, you need to notify ATC as you may be forming an obstacle. If you can't execute a taxi clearance in a continuous manner, no matter how often and for how many reasons it happens, you need to notify ATC.

An aircraft stops on a runway while crossing it, doesn't notify ATC and ATC forgets about him, assumes that he's clear.
An aircraft initiates its take off roll at the other end of the runway after getting take off clearance and by the time it sees the stopped aircraft, it can't avoid it.
The stopped aircraft has no liability? ATC has no liability? The departing aircraft is at fault?

Whenever you stop short of your entire taxi clearance, you need to notify ATC.
ATC then needs to adjust other clearances as needed.
ATC also cleared the A330 onto a taxiway that is narrower than its wingspan. So if they received a notification from the A321, they would have to tell the A330 crew to watch out or to hold short.

Asiana may be held liable for its own damages.
TK may be held liable for its own damages if it didn't notify ATC that it had stopped short of the gate.
ATC may be held partially liable for Asiana and entirely for TK if it had been notified by TK but didn't notify Asiana.

If Asiana had watched it s wing, it wouldnt have happened. Neither if TK and ATC had communicated.
Asiana is not the only one at fault.


I am not sure if TK's A321 is within apron lines.



As I see the above photo, Asiana's A330 is on the center line of the taxiway. The red line on the left, as I've interpreted it, is also a taxiway line, but used exclusively for aircraft with smaller wingspan. The apron lines appears to be immediately behind aircraft.

Google Maps's satellite view does a fairly good job at helping one visualize the area of where the incident took place. One can also see on Google Maps the usage of three different taxiway lines.

https://goo.gl/maps/wdhv2LhaDsr
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 5:52 pm

Bradin wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

A clearance to taxi is only a clearance to use the taxiways for which the controller designated. It is not a blind clearance to run into anything on those taxiways. A good way to put it: if you have your blinker on that doesn’t excuse you to just ram into another car while merging. You still have to make sure you can physically perform that maneuver without hitting another car.


Many of you are confusing airmanship and liability.

If you look at the pictures with the firefighting engine, the A330 was taxiing on the centerline. The A321 is also within the apron lines and outside the taxiway, or almost.
The issue is that the A330's wingspan is wider than the taxiway and protrudes into the apron.

If you hold short of the gate, you need to notify ATC as you may be forming an obstacle. If you can't execute a taxi clearance in a continuous manner, no matter how often and for how many reasons it happens, you need to notify ATC.

An aircraft stops on a runway while crossing it, doesn't notify ATC and ATC forgets about him, assumes that he's clear.
An aircraft initiates its take off roll at the other end of the runway after getting take off clearance and by the time it sees the stopped aircraft, it can't avoid it.
The stopped aircraft has no liability? ATC has no liability? The departing aircraft is at fault?

Whenever you stop short of your entire taxi clearance, you need to notify ATC.
ATC then needs to adjust other clearances as needed.
ATC also cleared the A330 onto a taxiway that is narrower than its wingspan. So if they received a notification from the A321, they would have to tell the A330 crew to watch out or to hold short.

Asiana may be held liable for its own damages.
TK may be held liable for its own damages if it didn't notify ATC that it had stopped short of the gate.
ATC may be held partially liable for Asiana and entirely for TK if it had been notified by TK but didn't notify Asiana.

If Asiana had watched it s wing, it wouldnt have happened. Neither if TK and ATC had communicated.
Asiana is not the only one at fault.


I am not sure if TK's A321 is within apron lines.



As I see the above photo, Asiana's A330 is on the center line of the taxiway. The red line on the left, as I've interpreted it, is also a taxiway line, but used exclusively for aircraft with smaller wingspan. The apron lines appears to be immediately behind aircraft.

Google Maps's satellite view does a fairly good job at helping one visualize the area of where the incident took place. One can also see on Google Maps the usage of three different taxiway lines.

https://goo.gl/maps/wdhv2LhaDsr


Ah yes you are right.
The A330 is on the centerline and the A321 is just marginally outside of the parallel taxilines but not entirely into the apron.

I've looked up the ATC tapes and here it is: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ltba/ ... -1430Z.mp3
From 21 minutes on a lot of chatter in Turkish between an aircraft and ATC.
21:51 Asiana 552 hold position.
23:30 You hit the Turkish Airlines Airbus 321, sir.
23:45 Ah yes, we need to check, standby
27:45 taxi clearance for Asiana 552 to S2 and so on.

Not professional all that Turkish on the frequency.
It's not good for situtional awareness of non-speakers and can have an impact on safety.

Now we need to figure out if Asiana ignored the hold position or if that came after the collision.
Some of the Turkish members can translate the chatter before the hold position command?
 
VolvoBus
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:47 pm

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 6:06 pm

Does the A330 have scimitars ?
 
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globetrotter94
Posts: 426
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 7:36 pm

VolvoBus wrote:
Does the A330 have scimitars ?


Nope, old-fashioned winglets.
6E, 9W, AF, AI, B6, BA, BI, BR, CA, DN, GA, IC, JL, KL, KU, NH, QR, SQ, TG, TK*, UA, VS
 
zanl188
Posts: 3736
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 11:33 pm

Hydraulic systems on THY aircraft are going to need servicing.

https://youtu.be/oH8uYt0ME14
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
flydude380
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:43 pm

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Wed May 16, 2018 7:45 am

TK will now want OZ outta the star alliance :D
 
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truckofpigeons
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 9:29 pm

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Fri May 18, 2018 10:18 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Ah yes you are right.
The A330 is on the centerline and the A321 is just marginally outside of the parallel taxilines but not entirely into the apron.

I've looked up the ATC tapes and here it is: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ltba/ ... -1430Z.mp3
From 21 minutes on a lot of chatter in Turkish between an aircraft and ATC.
21:51 Asiana 552 hold position.
23:30 You hit the Turkish Airlines Airbus 321, sir.
23:45 Ah yes, we need to check, standby
27:45 taxi clearance for Asiana 552 to S2 and so on.

Not professional all that Turkish on the frequency.
It's not good for situtional awareness of non-speakers and can have an impact on safety.

Now we need to figure out if Asiana ignored the hold position or if that came after the collision.
Some of the Turkish members can translate the chatter before the hold position command?


From a rough translation by a friend (over FaceTime!), it looks like the hold position call occurred after, since the collision was initially communicated beforehand in Turkish. My player was being weird with timings so I’ve estimated from the Asiana hold position call.

-00:30 Pilot: I think we have damage on the back
-00:24 Tower, woman: I didn’t understand
-00:20 Pilot: The plane behind us hit our tail
-00:10 Tower, man: We saw it and we’re monitoring it
00:00 Tower: Asiana 552 hold position
00:50 Tower: Hold before Golf, Tango Kilo Charlie ~garbled~ Hold before Golf [I’m guessing a general call to hold outside the accident taxiway]
01:20 Tower: You hit the Turkish Airlines 321, Sir
01:28 Asiana Pilot: Yes, we need to ~check~ standby

Most communications do seem to be in English, actually; it’s just around the accident that there’s more Turkish.
We didn’t find anything earlier about the A321 (TK969) holding outside of the gate but I can’t rule out communications about that. The only thing I heard was a brief mention of gate 217 (which it was pulling into according to https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20180513-1) but there was nothing we could understand there.

TOP
 
anthonycII
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:12 am

Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:12 am

I've not been able to find any information on the investigation and resulting report. Has anything official been published?

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