Newbiepilot
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 3:19 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
Mir wrote:
A388 wrote:
I actually think the A321 is at fault here seeing that they weren't suposed to be stopping where they stopped. The A330 was taxiing by as it should with or without looking for wing clearance. The A321 definitely shouldn't have stopped where it seems to have done. Like someone already told, a bit difficult to see from the video angle. In any case very unfortunate for both airlines.

A388


If the 321 doesn't believe it can safely proceed, it should stop. It is then the responsibility of other aircraft to not hit it. If the 330 crew was unsure of their wingtip clearance, they should have stopped as well and either waited for the 321 to move or requested wingwalkers to make sure (more likely the first option).


time for a sensors at the wingtip. can't believe it is so difficult and expensive to do so if we have numbers of cams installed on the tail; front wheels etc.


Cameras are one thing but sensors are entirely different. Cameras aren’t that hard to install.

A radar detection system like some cars have sounds much more complicated to me. I would imagine very poor reliability with such a system. Sure an impending collision alarm would be good, but there are so many things going on in an airport in tight spaces, that I struggle to see it actually working without becoming a distraction. The end of a wing is a very inhospitable place in flight. As airplanes age and wiring/sensors deteriorate, the aileron, rudder, elevator and stabilizer position sensors can be a maintenance head ache. I can’t imagine a detection system looking for potential collisions being worth the investment, especially when many incidents happen when an airplane is being towed. Wing walkers serve a valuable purpose.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 3:53 am

longhauler wrote:
I would be curious what was going on in the cockpit of the A330 that distracted both pilots to the point they did not notice the A321 had stopped. It does happen!

Maybe a revised taxi clearance. Perhaps a new runway or new load numbers ... either of which requires new performance calculations.

Basefly wrote:
The A321 appears to be waiting either for an marchall or a bridge operator to turn on the guidence system. In that case the A321 has gone to far into the stand, it should be holding on the taxiway before turning into the stand.


A388 wrote:
I actually think the A321 is at fault here seeing that they weren't suposed to be stopping where they stopped. The A330 was taxiing by as it should with or without looking for wing clearance. The A321 definitely shouldn't have stopped where it seems to have done.


There are a lot of very acceptable reasons for stopping where the A321 did. The most likely would be the Gate Guidance System stopped working. It happens from time to time. Procedure is to stop. Then wait for a marshaller to take over. Or it could be the sterile gate area was compromised. The marshaller then stops the aircraft, (either with the wands or with the GGS) then allows the aircraft to continue when the way is clear.


I think that ATC's responsibilites will also be scrutinised. Did TK communicate that they were holding short of the gate?
If so, ATC should have detected the imminent collision and told Asiana to stop.
If not, TK was holding an unplanned, unreported stop and may have to carry a big part of the liability for the collision.

If taxiing in tight spots, it may be good airmanship to look out while taxiing and to taxi slowly.
If you look out the windshield to the tip of your wing, on an A330 it is pretty difficult to see if the wing is going to clear or not until you are very close to the obstacle.
From a liability point of view, taxi clearance gives you right of way. Any unreported obstacles becomes responsibility of ATC if known to them, or the operator of the obstacle if unknown to ATC. Pilots can only be held liable for not avoiding obstacles that were (supposed to be) known by them through ATC, NOTAMS or too obvious.

I agree that proximity sensors should be made available.
If they can be installed on cars that are 10000 times cheaper, why not on aircraft?
 
rbavfan
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 3:55 am

ikramerica wrote:
Speed Tape!


LOL, thats a good one.
I've never seen the entire fin and rudder ripped like that.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 4:08 am

Waterbomber wrote:
I think that ATC's responsibilites will also be scrutinised. Did TK communicate that they were holding short of the gate?
If so, ATC should have detected the imminent collision and told Asiana to stop.
If not, TK was holding an unplanned, unreported stop and may have to carry a big part of the liability for the collision.

Remember the old adage. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. If you held short of your gate, if after all the above have been satisfied, one could advice ATC, or gate control, or whoever is listening, but .... you don't expect someone to run into the back of you. Aircraft hold short of their gates all the time. It is a fact of life ... I probably see it two or three times a day. Also, when I am taxiing an aircraft, I am looking where I am going.

These beasts have a lot of momentum, just like when driving a car, one should always be looking the distance it would take to stop.

Aircraft stop all the time when taxiing. Maybe confusion with the clearance. Maybe a problem in the cockpit. Or maybe even a new Captain that taxies a little slower than others. If you are following, you should be looking and adjusting your speed as appropriate. I certainly wouldn't expect ATC to be telling me to do something I am already expected to do.

Try to think of it like parking in a busy parking lot. If the car ahead of you turned into a parking spot, then for whatever reason stopped half way in, you are not absolved of any blame if you are not paying attention and run into the back of him.
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739er
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 4:13 am

First officer Wi Tu Kwose?...
 
Max Q
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 4:16 am

I agree that a ground collision device is quite plausible and it’s time


It’s kind of ridiculous that while airline travel ‘while airborne’ sees very few accidents these days ground accidents seem to be increasing


Why is this just accepted? perhaps because these ramp incidents have just damaged aircraft so far but that’s not always guaranteed


A ‘ground tcas’ should be developed that shows the position of all aircraft on the airport to others and any potential obstacles with warnings and resolution advisories just like in the air


The technology is most certainly there, not just to prevent collisions but it would be a major improvement in awareness for flight crews
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Antarius
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 4:19 am

739er wrote:
First officer Wi Tu Kwose?...


Bahahahahaha. Either that or Captain Sum Ting Wong got his license back.

And before someone gets offended, the comment was a play on this - https://youtu.be/AmclgO6w0C0
19:SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI BNA
 
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 4:57 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
is that a write off?


Nah, it'll buff right out.

Dutchy wrote:
It'll Buff Out.

Dammit! You beat me to it.

The A321 is TC-JMM. She is MSN 2916, first flown 20 October 2006 and delivered to Kingfisher on the 27th of that month. She was stored in October of 2012 and re-registered as OE-ICI before being delivered to TK on 4 March 2014. I suspect an 11yo frame with this kind of damage will see the skies again unless the fuselage is buckled or something.

The A330 is HL7792. She is MSN 1001, first flown on 5 March 2009 and delivered to OZ on 24 April of that year and is leased from Aercap. I think she definitely will fly again.

Winterapfel wrote:
However, in the cockpit of the A321, how would the flight crew know what happened?


Well, first of all, there would be a terrific noise. While the aircraft didn't rotate through >90° like the CRJ at JFK did, I'm pretty sure that anyone onboard would have felt a very sharp jolt to the right before the tail sheared off. And then there would be a hydraulic warning. An APU warning. I don't know how the control system would respond with the airplane not in flight and all.
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FlyHappy
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 5:23 am

longhauler wrote:

Try to think of it like parking in a busy parking lot. If the car ahead of you turned into a parking spot, then for whatever reason stopped half way in, you are not absolved of any blame if you are not paying attention and run into the back of him.


MON wrote:
As a 330 pilot I can state for information that both in the A330-200 and A330-300 the respective wingtips are clearly visible from each pilot’s side of the flightdeck.


A question for our pilots: you have a taxiway centerline to follow, but are there always edge markings along the gate areas to clearly indicate that another aircraft is (such as this neutered A321) not fully out of the taxiway? Is this a standard?

It seems to me that even if you can see your own wingtips from the cockpit, having a good gauge of your clearance is challenging for a widebody span.

Of course if there are edgelines, then it seems highly careless ("distracted driving?") of the A330...
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 5:55 am

FlyHappy wrote:

A question for our pilots: you have a taxiway centerline to follow, but are there always edge markings along the gate areas to clearly indicate that another aircraft is (such as this neutered A321) not fully out of the taxiway? Is this a standard?

It seems to me that even if you can see your own wingtips from the cockpit, having a good gauge of your clearance is challenging for a widebody span.

Of course if there are edgelines, then it seems highly careless ("distracted driving?") of the A330...


1. Yes, in most cases. Not familiar with IST, but i would bet there was a parking bay clearance line which the a321 was almost certainly not clear of.

2. Not that challenging. You get used to the plane's dimensions very quickly.

3. Yes, quite...
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Virtual737
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 6:06 am

My "back of a fag packet" maths shows the taxi speed of the A333 at ~17 knots (+/- 10%). The A321 wasn't slighly out of the gate, it was around halfway out of the gate and the tip of the A333 wing was ~6 metres (+/- not a lot) beyond the rear of the A321.

This wasn't a slight knick out of the tail of another aircraft that wasn't an obvious potential obstacle. Them there cockpit windows might need to be used a bit more.
 
brian415
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 6:20 am

This incident was well architected. Kudos to the pilots who caused a prank that caused no injuries!
 
stylo777
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 6:22 am

AFAIK both aircraft just completed their respective flights (ICN-IST and ECN-IST) and were taxiing into their positions.
also quite interesting fact: usually, "foreign" airlines almost always get a follow-me taxi-in. why in this case they one was missing, I don't know...
but, as tight as IST airport nowadays is, it was only a matter of time for something like this to happen. even more distracting (and often reported by pilots) is the crazy movement by ground service equipment. I look around other countries where there is a controlled and orderly (= safe) ground traffic whereas in IST you just have chaos.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 6:30 am

I think it will be repaired. video below of an MD80 getting one replaced in 2012. if it was worth the effort for an old mad dog, it will surely be worth it for a 321 of this vintage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0fJ4lt1yEo
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FA9295
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 7:02 am

AirKevin wrote:
When parts need to be certified, it's going to be expensive. I think the question then becomes if the cost for doing it is justified.

No, it's not justified. The pilot(s) just need to be careful and pay attention to their surroundings...
 
WIederling
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 7:39 am

ikramerica wrote:
Speed Tape!


Nah, just reinflate. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 7:51 am

 
Mir
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 8:17 am

Waterbomber wrote:

I think that ATC's responsibilites will also be scrutinised. Did TK communicate that they were holding short of the gate?
If so, ATC should have detected the imminent collision and told Asiana to stop.
If not, TK was holding an unplanned, unreported stop and may have to carry a big part of the liability for the collision.


If you're moving and you hit something that's not, it's on you, even if the other thing wasn't supposed to be there. The responsibility to see and avoid applies on the ground as well, even if ATC suggests that the way is clear. Whatever was going on with the 321 might be a contributing factor, but the probable cause is going to be related to the 330.
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globetrotter94
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 9:29 am

stylo777 wrote:
AFAIK both aircraft just completed their respective flights (ICN-IST and ECN-IST) and were taxiing into their positions.
also quite interesting fact: usually, "foreign" airlines almost always get a follow-me taxi-in. why in this case they one was missing, I don't know...
but, as tight as IST airport nowadays is, it was only a matter of time for something like this to happen. even more distracting (and often reported by pilots) is the crazy movement by ground service equipment. I look around other countries where there is a controlled and orderly (= safe) ground traffic whereas in IST you just have chaos.


I actually think Asiana was on its way out of IST.
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 10:58 am

AirKevin wrote:
Winterapfel wrote:
I was wondering: from the video the "wing vs tail" collision is clear. However, in the cockpit of the A321, how would the flight crew know what happened? The would have felt the unbelievable side swipe, probably followed by bells and wissles... And then what??

I assume you'd get indications of systems like the yaw damper failing. Other than that, I guess either ground crew, if connected, or air traffic control, if they happen to be looking in that direction, would say something.

Such as the Turkish equivalent of "holy shit!"
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AVFCdownunder
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 11:54 am

iahcsr wrote:
Antarius wrote:
How does something like this happen? Unreal.

It happens because pilots get complacent and just look straight ahead, forgetting to watch side to side for their wing clearance. It happens WAY to often around the world. :banghead:


It's hardly a common event considering the amount of aircraft maneuvers around busy aprons every day.
 
BWI757
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 12:03 pm

can't believe it is so difficult and expensive to do so if we have numbers of cams installed on the tail; front wheels etc.


Wheeltug has Taxicam in development:
http://www.wheeltug.gi/pr/pr_20180502.php
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trnswrld
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Just the other day I saw a video about some system for aircraft that has sensors on all it’s extremities that will automatically stop the aircraft if a collision with something is imminent. It appears this would have been the perfect situation to have such a system.
The video used a triple 7, maybe some of you guys saw the same video.

Hey my thirty thousand dollar car will automatically stop me in either direction, maybe 30+ million dollar aircraft should do the same. Or maybe these incidents are rare enough that a system like that just wouldn’t be worth the cost and weight involved.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 2:56 pm

The front of the A321 moved several meters sideways in just a couple of seconds. If anyone was on their feet inside the cabin or cockpit, they would certainly be slammed against the wall. Even if you're buckled down that one would have been rough.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 3:05 pm

cougar15 wrote:
I think it will be repaired. video below of an MD80 getting one replaced in 2012. if it was worth the effort for an old mad dog, it will surely be worth it for a 321 of this vintage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0fJ4lt1yEo


Not necessary, the fuselage may sustained excessive street damage which make it more expensive to repair.
In addition, the planes nowadays have shorter useful life then before, and 10 years old 321 may be considered old and not worth for such a substantial repair.
 
HeeseokKoo
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 3:09 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The front of the A321 moved several meters sideways in just a couple of seconds. If anyone was on their feet inside the cabin or cockpit, they would certainly be slammed against the wall. Even if you're buckled down that one would have been rough.

According to one OMAAT comment, some folks were standing up retrieving their hand luggages (not sure if that means overhead bin) as they thought they arrived at the gate even though seatbelt sign was still on. No big injuries, though. Another good example why we shouldn't move around until cleared by pilots.
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 3:14 pm

All the joking aside, why am I not surprised that it's Asiana again?

They are actually a good quality airline from the passenger point-of-view, but just the pilots freak me out. There must be Sum Ting Wong in the bigger scale of things.
 
richierich
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 3:29 pm

I'm assuming it's a no-brainer that both planes will fly again (unless there is some other damage that we don't know about) - but what would be the typical amount of time to source a replacement tailfin and then install it? I'm guessing the A321 will be out of service for a couple of months...
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Utah744
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 3:45 pm

I bet the 330 Captain didn't think he'd get a "piece of tail" on this trip.
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iahcsr
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 3:53 pm

AVFCdownunder wrote:
iahcsr wrote:
Antarius wrote:
How does something like this happen? Unreal.

It happens because pilots get complacent and just look straight ahead, forgetting to watch side to side for their wing clearance. It happens WAY to often around the world. :banghead:


It's hardly a common event considering the amount of aircraft maneuvers around busy aprons every day.

In this case by ‘often’ I mean several similar events over a twenty year span. You are quite correct in that it’s not a common thing.
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Chemist
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 4:44 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
All the joking aside, why am I not surprised that it's Asiana again?

They are actually a good quality airline from the passenger point-of-view, but just the pilots freak me out. There must be Sum Ting Wong in the bigger scale of things.


Bang Ding Ow
 
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 5:00 pm

And Co-pilot Wat da Fluk
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A388
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 5:06 pm

Basefly wrote:
The A321 appears to be waiting either for an marchall or a bridge operator to turn on the guidence system. In that case the A321 has gone to far into the stand, it should be holding on the taxiway before turning into the stand.


Some members here gave good reasons for the A321 to stop but what this member says, also makes me wonder whether the A321 was still at fault here?


A388
 
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 5:54 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The front of the A321 moved several meters sideways in just a couple of seconds. If anyone was on their feet inside the cabin or cockpit, they would certainly be slammed against the wall. Even if you're buckled down that one would have been rough.


I also really wonder about this. I flew MLX-IST the day before on Onur Air and once at IST we also stopped a few meters before our stand (bus gate though) and then everyone stood up and started to take their luggage down from the hat racks. The crew made many PAs (in Turkish, which I don't understand, but I'm guessing) "Please sit down, please sit down, we aren't at the gate yet." Then we pulled into the gate, of course some standing people off-balance swayed during that movement. So a few meters quick jolt would send them flying.....like you say, rough.
 
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 6:54 pm

Are we still trying to pin blame on the 321 crew for this? Never ever is a parked plane to blame when a moving plane hits it. I can tell you from operating out of very tight alleyways and ramp areas that not everything is completely perfect and both pilots in every cockpit need to be looking left and right when passing any airplane. To just assume clearance of other aircraft just because you have been given a taxi instruction is not only stupid but careless and reckless operation of an aircraft. If you've ever flown a commercial aircraft, you would know there are millions of reasons why the aircraft will need to stop short of the gate when parking. Case in point I was in RSW a few months ago and we saw a catering truck that was parked over the safety zone lines at the gate area. We stopped the plane about 100' short of the gate until the truck was moved. No one was in the truck and it took about 20 minutes for someone to be located to move the vehicle. The wingwalker told us we would clear the truck but that's not how the rules work. If in that 20 minutes we had our tail sticking out into the alley and another plane hits us, that is 100% the fault of the other aircraft. You simply just don't blindly taxi. Congestion happens all the time, planes get blocked by other planes. That's life. That's how the system works. There is no question about it.
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 8:10 pm

So it‘s actually an A330 that has the first „folding wingtips“. ;-)
 
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 8:22 pm

delete
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 8:49 pm

A388 wrote:
Basefly wrote:
The A321 appears to be waiting either for an marchall or a bridge operator to turn on the guidence system. In that case the A321 has gone to far into the stand, it should be holding on the taxiway before turning into the stand.


Some members here gave good reasons for the A321 to stop but what this member says, also makes me wonder whether the A321 was still at fault here?


A388


As far as I’m aware, holding out on the taxiway is the correct way forward....... sure you block the route, but you also avoid issues like this.
 
FermiParadox
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 9:54 pm

I hope this video is shown on every airplane after arrival to remind people why you're asked to keep your seatbelt fastened until the sign is off....
 
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Mon May 14, 2018 10:03 pm

WIederling wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Speed Tape!


Nah, just reinflate. :-)


Ikramerca, you won the thread.

richierich wrote:
I'm assuming it's a no-brainer that both planes will fly again (unless there is some other damage that we don't know about) - but what would be the typical amount of time to source a replacement tailfin and then install it? I'm guessing the A321 will be out of service for a couple of months...

How much tape you got? ;)

A tail is a standard part. If the attachments failed as designed, about as quick as an x-ray and shipping in the tail and answering "you want a crane where, for what?!?"

Lightsaber
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am

n6238p wrote:
Are we still trying to pin blame on the 321 crew for this? Never ever is a parked plane to blame when a moving plane hits it. I can tell you from operating out of very tight alleyways and ramp areas that not everything is completely perfect and both pilots in every cockpit need to be looking left and right when passing any airplane. To just assume clearance of other aircraft just because you have been given a taxi instruction is not only stupid but careless and reckless operation of an aircraft. If you've ever flown a commercial aircraft, you would know there are millions of reasons why the aircraft will need to stop short of the gate when parking. Case in point I was in RSW a few months ago and we saw a catering truck that was parked over the safety zone lines at the gate area. We stopped the plane about 100' short of the gate until the truck was moved. No one was in the truck and it took about 20 minutes for someone to be located to move the vehicle. The wingwalker told us we would clear the truck but that's not how the rules work. If in that 20 minutes we had our tail sticking out into the alley and another plane hits us, that is 100% the fault of the other aircraft. You simply just don't blindly taxi. Congestion happens all the time, planes get blocked by other planes. That's life. That's how the system works. There is no question about it.



He’s correct. There is no way this is the fault of the 321 crew.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 12:32 am

Looking at the video and where the damage is, and assuming the Captain was steering at the time, then the Captain would not have had any view of the right wing from his seat on the Asiana A330.

This would then raise the question of what the First Officer was doing at the time as the impact was on his side. Running checklists and the other jobs needed to be out of the way before departure? Working the radio? Whatever the case, it's also going to be the case that the OZ was taxiing with permission down that taxiway and there would be an assumption that clearance means clear to proceed.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 12:42 am

Channex757 wrote:
Looking at the video and where the damage is, and assuming the Captain was steering at the time, then the Captain would not have had any view of the right wing from his seat on the Asiana A330.

This would then raise the question of what the First Officer was doing at the time as the impact was on his side. Running checklists and the other jobs needed to be out of the way before departure? Working the radio? Whatever the case, it's also going to be the case that the OZ was taxiing with permission down that taxiway and there would be an assumption that clearance means clear to proceed.


A clearance to taxi is only a clearance to use the taxiways for which the controller designated. It is not a blind clearance to run into anything on those taxiways. A good way to put it: if you have your blinker on that doesn’t excuse you to just ram into another car while merging. You still have to make sure you can physically perform that maneuver without hitting another car.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 12:52 am

Istanbul is such a crowded airport that this hardly surprises me. In fact, when I'm in a plane that is taxying there I often worry that we're too close to other planes. Sure, this was the pilot's fault but things are really tight at Ataturk.
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 2:00 am

So does the Asiana pilot lose their job over this? Is that a job-ender at any major airline?

Thanks in advance.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 2:10 am

Hopefully the A321 vertical stabilizer can simply be replaced. The vertical stab mounting will need extensive inspection for cracks and other damage. The left horizontal stabilizer will also need extensive inspection along with necessary repairs or replacement. The A330 wing tip will also need major repairs if possible or replacement if the tip is not repairable. Both these aircraft most likely will need Airbus to make the repairs. A new wing may be required. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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Narfish641
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 2:14 am

qf789 wrote:
At IST today an Asiana Airlines A333 (HL7792) got a little close to a Turkish Airlines A321 (TC-JMM), damaging the tail of the aircraft

Image

Image

https://twitter.com/JacdecNew/status/995693283937538050


Oooh that's a nasty one!! Glad everyone is safe, but that A321 is gonna need some serious repairs.
Flew on:
SWA 737 738
 
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longhauler
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 2:19 am

SeaDoo wrote:
So does the Asiana pilot lose their job over this? Is that a job-ender at any major airline?

Not always.

It depends on how the Safety Management System is set up at their airline. I am not familiar with Korean Standards, but in the USA/Canada for example, the investigation would start on why it happened.

Not "how" ... we know "how" ... but "why"?

That is why I asked above, wondering about what was going on in the cockpit. Why was the Captain so distracted that he didn't notice that the way was not clear ahead of him? What was the distraction? Maybe a call from the back end? Maybe a runway change? Maybe a revised load? etc.

I mention those, because where I fly, cockpit distraction has been the reason for ground navigation errors and SOPs have changed to mitigate those threats. We now can not push without our final load. If the runway changes, or load changes or performance changes ... we must STOP and follow a checklist. With these changes, (and a few more) our ground navigations errors have reduced to almost Zero!

So. A draconian airline can fire the pilots, ensuring that they never make that mistake again. Or advanced SMS protocal at advanced airlines would correct the errors that caused the error ... making sure no one makes that mistake.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
IPFreely
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 2:43 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Both these aircraft most likely will need Airbus to make the repairs.


I can fix it. My dad's a tv repairman. He's got this ultimate set of tools. I can fix it.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Asiana Airlines A333 knocks tail off Turkish Airlines A321 at IST

Tue May 15, 2018 7:13 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Looking at the video and where the damage is, and assuming the Captain was steering at the time, then the Captain would not have had any view of the right wing from his seat on the Asiana A330.

This would then raise the question of what the First Officer was doing at the time as the impact was on his side. Running checklists and the other jobs needed to be out of the way before departure? Working the radio? Whatever the case, it's also going to be the case that the OZ was taxiing with permission down that taxiway and there would be an assumption that clearance means clear to proceed.


A clearance to taxi is only a clearance to use the taxiways for which the controller designated. It is not a blind clearance to run into anything on those taxiways. A good way to put it: if you have your blinker on that doesn’t excuse you to just ram into another car while merging. You still have to make sure you can physically perform that maneuver without hitting another car.


Many of you are confusing airmanship and liability.

If you look at the pictures with the firefighting engine, the A330 was taxiing on the centerline. The A321 is also within the apron lines and outside the taxiway, or almost.
The issue is that the A330's wingspan is wider than the taxiway and protrudes into the apron.

If you hold short of the gate, you need to notify ATC as you may be forming an obstacle. If you can't execute a taxi clearance in a continuous manner, no matter how often and for how many reasons it happens, you need to notify ATC.

An aircraft stops on a runway while crossing it, doesn't notify ATC and ATC forgets about him, assumes that he's clear.
An aircraft initiates its take off roll at the other end of the runway after getting take off clearance and by the time it sees the stopped aircraft, it can't avoid it.
The stopped aircraft has no liability? ATC has no liability? The departing aircraft is at fault?

Whenever you stop short of your entire taxi clearance, you need to notify ATC.
ATC then needs to adjust other clearances as needed.
ATC also cleared the A330 onto a taxiway that is narrower than its wingspan. So if they received a notification from the A321, they would have to tell the A330 crew to watch out or to hold short.

Asiana may be held liable for its own damages.
TK may be held liable for its own damages if it didn't notify ATC that it had stopped short of the gate.
ATC may be held partially liable for Asiana and entirely for TK if it had been notified by TK but didn't notify Asiana.

If Asiana had watched it s wing, it wouldnt have happened. Neither if TK and ATC had communicated.
Asiana is not the only one at fault.

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