rbavfan
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 8:27 am

LTU1011 wrote:
Facebook hate emoji dropper has a (wet) field day...jeez let's have a monopoly so that those pesky Airbi will falter for good... The whole situation does come across like this a giant catch 22 - no one wins - and from the gammut of info available it does seem that Boeing is indeed sitting in a glasshouse of their own and their triumphant bravado seems premature


Huge glass house using tech paid for by NASA research grants to make their planes more efficient. But they say thats not state aide.
 
rbavfan
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 8:31 am

SelseyBill wrote:
Polot wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:

....only 'garbage' it seems when US workers are involved.

What about those folks up in Montreal and in Belfast, who Boeing recently wanted to 'lay-off' with their 'Bombardier' action over the C-Series.......

BBD’s subsidies actually predate Boeing’s actions. But no worries I’m pretty sure Brazil has already filed a complaint against Canada with the WTO over the issue.


I'm not believing for one minute Embraer doesn't get subsidies in one form or another from its own government; good for them; but be careful what you wish for Brazil. Of course BBD's subsidies pre-date Boeings' action; it would be a practical impossibility for even Boeing to complain about something that was yet to happen.

Lets not forget that Boeing complained about BBD bidding for contracts with US airlines by pricing below cost of production; something that Boeing had evidently done many times, including the United 737-700 contest........ its fine for Boeing to do that for internal USA business; but if it tries the same trick bidding overseas; (lets say for 797 contracts); then its a different matter altogether, and plenty of other nations will be watching closely given Boeings stance over BBD.


They could still file a complaint against Boeing for doing that with United. It's exactly what they did to kill United's talks with BBD. Sold under cost & then allowed them to upgrade the order to other models. Solely to block BBD from getting any sales. They are afraid of the CS100/300 otherwise they would not have went to that extreme.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am

rbavfan wrote:
Me saying I'll keep quiet if you pay me = extortion, A lawyer saying it = negotiation.

...can't say I follow you on that one :confused:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
XT6Wagon
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 9:35 am

rbavfan wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
Polot wrote:
BBD’s subsidies actually predate Boeing’s actions. But no worries I’m pretty sure Brazil has already filed a complaint against Canada with the WTO over the issue.


I'm not believing for one minute Embraer doesn't get subsidies in one form or another from its own government; good for them; but be careful what you wish for Brazil. Of course BBD's subsidies pre-date Boeings' action; it would be a practical impossibility for even Boeing to complain about something that was yet to happen.

Lets not forget that Boeing complained about BBD bidding for contracts with US airlines by pricing below cost of production; something that Boeing had evidently done many times, including the United 737-700 contest........ its fine for Boeing to do that for internal USA business; but if it tries the same trick bidding overseas; (lets say for 797 contracts); then its a different matter altogether, and plenty of other nations will be watching closely given Boeings stance over BBD.


They could still file a complaint against Boeing for doing that with United. It's exactly what they did to kill United's talks with BBD. Sold under cost & then allowed them to upgrade the order to other models. Solely to block BBD from getting any sales. They are afraid of the CS100/300 otherwise they would not have went to that extreme.


Strange thing, no one has ever provided any proof of the united deal being below actual cost. Only speculation based on napkin math based on speculation. The delta deal we have actual evidence, and bbd failed to provide *any* justification for the pricing. Which is strange since they should have it already to justify the sales contract to the board of directors. It should have been a justifiable deal even below cost due to production ramp and future cost reductions being... in the future.
 
StTim
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 9:39 am

XT6Wagon wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:

I'm not believing for one minute Embraer doesn't get subsidies in one form or another from its own government; good for them; but be careful what you wish for Brazil. Of course BBD's subsidies pre-date Boeings' action; it would be a practical impossibility for even Boeing to complain about something that was yet to happen.

Lets not forget that Boeing complained about BBD bidding for contracts with US airlines by pricing below cost of production; something that Boeing had evidently done many times, including the United 737-700 contest........ its fine for Boeing to do that for internal USA business; but if it tries the same trick bidding overseas; (lets say for 797 contracts); then its a different matter altogether, and plenty of other nations will be watching closely given Boeings stance over BBD.


They could still file a complaint against Boeing for doing that with United. It's exactly what they did to kill United's talks with BBD. Sold under cost & then allowed them to upgrade the order to other models. Solely to block BBD from getting any sales. They are afraid of the CS100/300 otherwise they would not have went to that extreme.


Strange thing, no one has ever provided any proof of the united deal being below actual cost. Only speculation based on napkin math based on speculation. The delta deal we have actual evidence, and bbd failed to provide *any* justification for the pricing. Which is strange since they should have it already to justify the sales contract to the board of directors. It should have been a justifiable deal even below cost due to production ramp and future cost reductions being... in the future.


Yeah - supply pricing details to the US government who will pass it on to Boeing your competitor. Of course they shouldn’t but you know they would have done.

No such thing as a level playing field.
 
Noshow
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 10:00 am

I see both sides receiving certain government subsidies beyound the WTO agreement. Both civil and military. Both open and "black". So we need another agreement (like we had before) on what is permitted in the airplane industry and what not. Not this legal dogfight for years.
 
Nean1
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 12:07 pm

Noshow wrote:
I see both sides receiving certain government subsidies beyound the WTO agreement. Both civil and military. Both open and "black". So we need another agreement (like we had before) on what is permitted in the airplane industry and what not. Not this legal dogfight for years.


Noshow,

There is no problem of lack of agreement or confusion in concepts. The problem that occurs is the lack of enforcement measures. Drawing a parallel with the crisis of the big banks, many governments find their aerospace companies too strategic to fail. Such behavior results in reckless management and over-investment.
 
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 12:51 pm

A quick summary on Reuters:

Release date- 15052018 - The WTO Appellate Body has published today the first of two rulings expected this year on subsidies in the large commercial aircraft dispute between the US and the EU. The first ruling is the Appellate Body's final report on the EU's compliance with previous World Trade Organisation's (WTO) findings in the case against Airbus (DS316). The second ruling - dealing with Boeing's case - is expected later this year.

* 'Repayable launch investment' confirmed as legal financing mechanism for aircraft development.

* WTO confirms compliance fully achieved on A320 and A330, remaining tweaks on A380 and A350 only minor.

* 94 percent of all US / Boeing's original claims now dismissed by WTO

* Any potential US sanctions, now likely to be minor compared to what we expect on the European case against Boeing, would be counter-productive, ill-timed and ultimately harmful to the airlines and passengers

* Report is only 'half the story.' Much more interesting part - on Boeing's more egregious and competition-damaging subsidies - to come later this year.

* Only real solution to 15-year-long dispute remains a negotiated deal

In its report, the Appellate Body confirms the legality of the loan partnership approach between Airbus and European governments. The WTO Panel agrees further with earlier findings that the European repayable launch investment (RLI) loans for civil aerospace development projects do not constitute a prohibited subsidy and only few modifications are needed to achieve full compliance. The WTO has now dismissed in their entirety 94 percent of Boeing's original claims.

The WTO confirmed that all aspects of the A320 and A330 programs are now in full compliance, and that only minor action remains on the A380.

On A350, minor elements of the RLI remain to be addressed. Airbus is currently implementing changes to respond to these findings. This means that any potential US sanctions, now likely to be minor compared to what we expect on the case against Boeing's subsidies, could result to be counter-productive and ill-timed.
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 1:04 pm

Deeso wrote:
seahawk wrote:
aaexecplat wrote:

You seriously want that?


Would it resonate well with his voters, so I would not rule that out.


It surely would resonate with the voters working for the numerous American suppliers Airbus relies on... Hardly a good idea.


We seem to forget that Trump is not all that enamored with Boeing. Wasn't Boeing the first major U.S. corporation that he attacked after becoming president, causing it's stock to drop?
 
seb76
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 1:08 pm

airbazar wrote:
Deeso wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Would it resonate well with his voters, so I would not rule that out.


It surely would resonate with the voters working for the numerous American suppliers Airbus relies on... Hardly a good idea.


We seem to forget that Trump is not all that enamored with Boeing. Wasn't Boeing the first major U.S. corporation that he attacked after becoming president, causing it's stock to drop?


As a proud 757 owner, Trump is probably still angry at Boeing for shutting down the 757 production line :duck:
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 1:36 pm

Why bother with these threads at all? These two companies are the two most coddled businesses on the planet and will continue the tit for tat for so long as their governments continue to protect them. This is the business equivalent of trying to understand who is right and wrong in India vs Pakistan or Red Sox vs Yankees or Barcelona vs Real Madrid or whatever rivalry you choose. The debate will never end nor will it be satisfactory to either side.
 
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 1:54 pm

StTim wrote:
seahawk wrote:
This could open the way for UA, DL and AA to get rid of their Airbus contracts without having to pay a penalty.

That way lies madness. But given what has been happening recently nothing would surprise me.


That is the point. Nothing would be surprising with the current US administration.
 
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 1:58 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Aviano789 wrote:
There is plenty of orders/revenue to go around for both Airbus and Boeing, this is a MOOT fight!

It seems ideology is driving things more than greed.

Huh??

Since when have politicos ever truly given a damn about ideology?
...they just use it as a smokescreen to mask their object(ives) of their greed.

E.g.:
Legalizing open/flagrant bribery = "campaign contributions"
Invading a sovereign country for its oil = "liberating from a dictator"
Building for-profit prisons while enacting 3strike rules for minor offenses = "cracking down on crime"
Exempting 16yr-olds from child labor protections so they work for pennies = "teaching responsibility"

Nothing's changed.

Where does "preventing terrorists from getting nuclear weapons" fall on the scale?

My current favorite: Sports leagues taking slice of legalized gambling for themselves = "charging an integrity fee"
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ILNFlyer
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 2:01 pm

Getting into a pissing contest isn't going to help either company.
 
tommy1808
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 2:04 pm

fsabo wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Nice chance to impose import tariffs on Airbus now. Trump should not let it pass.


I really hope trump does that. Both in airbus and steel + aluminum.


Have fun with Boeing being shut down, since not a single Aircraft will be build without EU components.

best regards
Thomas
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RalXWB
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 2:10 pm

Asiaflyer wrote:
A quick summary on Reuters:

Release date- 15052018 - The WTO Appellate Body has published today the first of two rulings expected this year on subsidies in the large commercial aircraft dispute between the US and the EU. The first ruling is the Appellate Body's final report on the EU's compliance with previous World Trade Organisation's (WTO) findings in the case against Airbus (DS316). The second ruling - dealing with Boeing's case - is expected later this year.

* 'Repayable launch investment' confirmed as legal financing mechanism for aircraft development.

* WTO confirms compliance fully achieved on A320 and A330, remaining tweaks on A380 and A350 only minor.

* 94 percent of all US / Boeing's original claims now dismissed by WTO

* Any potential US sanctions, now likely to be minor compared to what we expect on the European case against Boeing, would be counter-productive, ill-timed and ultimately harmful to the airlines and passengers

* Report is only 'half the story.' Much more interesting part - on Boeing's more egregious and competition-damaging subsidies - to come later this year.

* Only real solution to 15-year-long dispute remains a negotiated deal

In its report, the Appellate Body confirms the legality of the loan partnership approach between Airbus and European governments. The WTO Panel agrees further with earlier findings that the European repayable launch investment (RLI) loans for civil aerospace development projects do not constitute a prohibited subsidy and only few modifications are needed to achieve full compliance. The WTO has now dismissed in their entirety 94 percent of Boeing's original claims.

The WTO confirmed that all aspects of the A320 and A330 programs are now in full compliance, and that only minor action remains on the A380.

On A350, minor elements of the RLI remain to be addressed. Airbus is currently implementing changes to respond to these findings. This means that any potential US sanctions, now likely to be minor compared to what we expect on the case against Boeing's subsidies, could result to be counter-productive and ill-timed.


Thank you for this detailed information!
 
wingman
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 3:09 pm

RalXWB wrote:
Thank you for this detailed information!


I believe that's an Airbus press release disguised as a Reuters "news" story. Most legitimate news stories agree yesterday was a "victory" for Boeing with total dollar claims allowed still to be set, and then pursued by the US if they decide to. I'm not sure what "victory" means in this case since both sides simply maximize whatever advantage they can gain in launching new aircraft. Still, if it's a pissing contest the only yardstick has to be the damages set in the rulings for and against each company. The process to arrive at those numbers is infinitely more educated and unbiased than our typical forum exchanges. Though I do give these exchanges an edge in objectiveness over any press release from Airbus or Boeing. We'll always have that.
 
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 4:08 pm

Please excuse my lack of understanding, but will this impact the DL. C series orders?
Sorry if I missed it in the above replies, I was sort of speed reading thru.
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 4:09 pm

Revelation wrote:
Where does "preventing terrorists from getting nuclear weapons" fall on the scale?"

That one's easy.

Two countries pretending that another nation is building nuclear weapons, despite anti-proliferation agencies on two continents finding zilch empirical evidence that they actually are; in a situation shockingly similar (in both attempt by the government actors and reception by the idiot populace) to the 2002/2003 build-up to the Iraqi invasion = "preventing terrorists from getting nuclear weapons"
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Revelation
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 4:47 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Where does "preventing terrorists from getting nuclear weapons" fall on the scale?"

That one's easy.

Two countries pretending that another nation is building nuclear weapons, despite anti-proliferation agencies on two continents finding zilch empirical evidence that they actually are; in a situation shockingly similar (in both attempt by the government actors and reception by the idiot populace) to the 2002/2003 build-up to the Iraqi invasion = "preventing terrorists from getting nuclear weapons"

Indeed, but since you said it's about money not theology, who's making money here?
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 7:09 pm

rbavfan wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:
Polot wrote:
BBD’s subsidies actually predate Boeing’s actions. But no worries I’m pretty sure Brazil has already filed a complaint against Canada with the WTO over the issue.


I'm not believing for one minute Embraer doesn't get subsidies in one form or another from its own government; good for them; but be careful what you wish for Brazil. Of course BBD's subsidies pre-date Boeings' action; it would be a practical impossibility for even Boeing to complain about something that was yet to happen.

Lets not forget that Boeing complained about BBD bidding for contracts with US airlines by pricing below cost of production; something that Boeing had evidently done many times, including the United 737-700 contest........ its fine for Boeing to do that for internal USA business; but if it tries the same trick bidding overseas; (lets say for 797 contracts); then its a different matter altogether, and plenty of other nations will be watching closely given Boeings stance over BBD.


They could still file a complaint against Boeing for doing that with United. It's exactly what they did to kill United's talks with BBD. Sold under cost & then allowed them to upgrade the order to other models. Solely to block BBD from getting any sales. They are afraid of the CS100/300 otherwise they would not have went to that extreme.


Except that the United order from Boeing was a domestic transaction within the U.S., whereas the BBD sales were for Canadian exports to the U.S., which does actually make a difference in terms of unfair trade arguments and dumping.
 
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 7:35 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
SelseyBill wrote:

I'm not believing for one minute Embraer doesn't get subsidies in one form or another from its own government; good for them; but be careful what you wish for Brazil. Of course BBD's subsidies pre-date Boeings' action; it would be a practical impossibility for even Boeing to complain about something that was yet to happen.

Lets not forget that Boeing complained about BBD bidding for contracts with US airlines by pricing below cost of production; something that Boeing had evidently done many times, including the United 737-700 contest........ its fine for Boeing to do that for internal USA business; but if it tries the same trick bidding overseas; (lets say for 797 contracts); then its a different matter altogether, and plenty of other nations will be watching closely given Boeings stance over BBD.


They could still file a complaint against Boeing for doing that with United. It's exactly what they did to kill United's talks with BBD. Sold under cost & then allowed them to upgrade the order to other models. Solely to block BBD from getting any sales. They are afraid of the CS100/300 otherwise they would not have went to that extreme.


Except that the United order from Boeing was a domestic transaction within the U.S., whereas the BBD sales were for Canadian exports to the U.S., which does actually make a difference in terms of unfair trade arguments and dumping.



AND Boeing fully funded any losses out of their own pocket, which is not what BBD-Canada did.
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WkndWanderer
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 7:41 pm

Asiaflyer wrote:
A quick summary on Reuters:

Release date- 15052018 - The WTO Appellate Body has published today the first of two rulings expected this year on subsidies in the large commercial aircraft dispute between the US and the EU. The first ruling is the Appellate Body's final report on the EU's compliance with previous World Trade Organisation's (WTO) findings in the case against Airbus (DS316). The second ruling - dealing with Boeing's case - is expected later this year.

* 'Repayable launch investment' confirmed as legal financing mechanism for aircraft development.

* WTO confirms compliance fully achieved on A320 and A330, remaining tweaks on A380 and A350 only minor.

* 94 percent of all US / Boeing's original claims now dismissed by WTO

* Any potential US sanctions, now likely to be minor compared to what we expect on the European case against Boeing, would be counter-productive, ill-timed and ultimately harmful to the airlines and passengers

* Report is only 'half the story.' Much more interesting part - on Boeing's more egregious and competition-damaging subsidies - to come later this year.

* Only real solution to 15-year-long dispute remains a negotiated deal

In its report, the Appellate Body confirms the legality of the loan partnership approach between Airbus and European governments. The WTO Panel agrees further with earlier findings that the European repayable launch investment (RLI) loans for civil aerospace development projects do not constitute a prohibited subsidy and only few modifications are needed to achieve full compliance. The WTO has now dismissed in their entirety 94 percent of Boeing's original claims.

The WTO confirmed that all aspects of the A320 and A330 programs are now in full compliance, and that only minor action remains on the A380.

On A350, minor elements of the RLI remain to be addressed. Airbus is currently implementing changes to respond to these findings. This means that any potential US sanctions, now likely to be minor compared to what we expect on the case against Boeing's subsidies, could result to be counter-productive and ill-timed.


With respect, there is a tremendous amount of misleading editorializing in your summary. In fact once you got to the part saying "Much more interesting part - on Boeing's more egregious and competition-damaging subsidies," calling this a summary of the actual content of the Reuters story stretched credibility, particularly since you didn't bother to post the link to the article. The actual headline of the lead Reuters article on the topic is "WTO Raps Airbus Subsidies" and the leading story intro is actually "The World Trade Organization ruled on Tuesday the European Union had maintained illegal support to Airbus (AIR.PA), prompting the United States to threaten sanctions against European products in the first of two key aircraft subsidy decisions due this year.

The retaliatory tariffs are expected by analysts to amount in the billions and to be the largest ever authorized by the WTO, and more significantly, that the USTR office does not even expect the tariffs to be limited to aircraft imports, using the word "minor" in your summary half a dozen times doesn't really reflect the gravity or historic nature of the WTO appeal ruling.

Given the current U.S. administration, the steel and aluminum tariff tensions between the U.S. and Europe, the fracturing over European economic cooperation with Iran, and the tariff supporting statements of the USTR office after the ruling yesterday, I would not be nearly so dismissive over the other salient portions of the reporting on this ruling, like "The U.S. threatened to impose sanctions against the European Union after the World Trade Organization ruled that Airbus SE received illegal government funding to develop jetliners," and U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer saying "..the United States may have to move forward with countermeasures on EU products." The trade policy of the U.S. is currently very unpredictable and isn't even always predicated on its own best long term interests at the moment. Additionally, If the EU moves forward with attempting to protect its companies from reimposed US sanctions on Iran and to challenge Trump directly as they announced they intended to do yesterday, all bets are off.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -sanctions

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/38779 ... iffs-on-eu
 
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PW100
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 9:20 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
Except that the United order from Boeing was a domestic transaction within the U.S., whereas the BBD sales were for Canadian exports to the U.S., which does actually make a difference in terms of unfair trade arguments and dumping.


Correct.
It's the basically legal dumping vs illegal dumping . . .
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talonone
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 10:11 pm

fsabo wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Nice chance to impose import tariffs on Airbus now. Trump should not let it pass.


I really hope trump does that. Both in airbus and steel + aluminum.


After Chinese, and after the EU will slap the door on USA face, where will they sell their planes!?
To Bombardier? Maybe to the USAF!?

Take a break, really!
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WkndWanderer
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 10:27 pm

talonone wrote:
fsabo wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Nice chance to impose import tariffs on Airbus now. Trump should not let it pass.


I really hope trump does that. Both in airbus and steel + aluminum.


After Chinese, and after the EU will slap the door on USA face, where will they sell their planes!?
To Bombardier? Maybe to the USAF!?

Take a break, really!


The European Commission already acknowledged yesterday that they will comply with the WTO ruling which authorized possible amount TBD U.S. retaliatory tariffs, so I doubt that the EU will be planning on "slapping" the door on the U.S.'s face, particularly when you consider that Boeing directly employs about 2.5x more Europeans than Airbus does Americans before you even account for suppliers. The EU also has more to consider in terms of what possible degree its potential actions against the U.S. could sour it's relationships and influence with Boeing and the U.S. aerospace sector as they have billions in outstanding orders and contracts with them for military defense systems and airplanes and have a long history of partnering with them on such projects, which is a much less relevant potential factor to weigh to the U.S.
 
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Wed May 16, 2018 11:37 pm

From what I understand the ball is in the EU/Airbus camp. If they follow the ruling, then the US has no right to apply any tariff.

I find the lessons on WTO workings funny considering Trump is talking daily (and has signed stuff already) about slapping tariffs on all and sundry, which is completely illegal under WTO rules.

As for Iran, don't expect any change of tone from EU leaders, especially considering that they can't do much else than talk. If a company trades with the US and with Iran, it will have to choose one over the other (sometimes it will be Iran, but that will be small companies). At most the EU will make laws banning EU companies from applying the sanctions, like there are already laws banning EU companies from following sanctions on Cuba, but these are only effective because the sanctions themselves are of a different nature (my company builds stuff in the US and in Cuba at the same time).
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talonone
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Thu May 17, 2018 12:51 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
talonone wrote:
fsabo wrote:

I really hope trump does that. Both in airbus and steel + aluminum.


After Chinese, and after the EU will slap the door on USA face, where will they sell their planes!?
To Bombardier? Maybe to the USAF!?

Take a break, really!


The European Commission already acknowledged yesterday that they will comply with the WTO ruling which authorized possible amount TBD U.S. retaliatory tariffs, so I doubt that the EU will be planning on "slapping" the door on the U.S.'s face, particularly when you consider that Boeing directly employs about 2.5x more Europeans than Airbus does Americans before you even account for suppliers. The EU also has more to consider in terms of what possible degree its potential actions against the U.S. could sour it's relationships and influence with Boeing and the U.S. aerospace sector as they have billions in outstanding orders and contracts with them for military defense systems and airplanes and have a long history of partnering with them on such projects, which is a much less relevant potential factor to weigh to the U.S.


"EU will be planning on "slapping" the door on the U.S.'s face, particularly when you consider that Boeing directly employs about 2.5x more Europeans than Airbus does Americans before you even account for suppliers" and US will come with retaliation!? Let me smile.
Now the grapes are sour? When receive the same treatment as you applied for years you start crying!?
The space and human stupidity are endless. Maybe the space is not... but the human stupidity for sure!
 
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EPA001
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Thu May 17, 2018 3:21 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
The retaliatory tariffs are expected by analysts to amount in the billions and to be the largest ever authorized by the WTO, and more significantly, that the USTR office does not even expect the tariffs to be limited to aircraft imports, using the word "minor" in your summary half a dozen times doesn't really reflect the gravity or historic nature of the WTO appeal ruling.


Well, if they are ever implemented at all. I think everyone will wait with their real actions until the second report is out. That will only take a couple of months. Why start a trade war amor 10 Billon when you might be slapped in the face for $ 25 Billion? (The stated amounts are just an example to make my point). Now the EU/Airbus is speculating/expecting, but based on previous intermediate WTO-rulings, that the verdict on that report will be much more in favour for them than this verdict is for Boeing/the US. That of course remains to be seen but no doubt the intermediate rulings have given a clear indication. As did the intermediate rulings on this complaint against Airbus/the EU also have done.

So this whole ugly thing is not over yet and started many years when the US unilaterally walked away from a perfectly fine working treaty under the existing WTO-rules which in the end more or less divided the world's large civilian airliner market up in two almost evenly sized manufacturer conglomerates. So it can't have been bad for both of them. Walking away from that agreement has benefited many lawyers to the extreme, as has been pointed out hundreds of times here in the many threads about the subject.

So this whole WTO-stuff is still far from over, but my guess is that it was never worth the while to walk away from the original deal to begin with. And with two reports on the table, most likely both declaring the protesting side to be the 'winner', the timing is right to get a new deal under WTO-rules for the US and the EU on this matter. And than they should get on with their core business and build those fantastic airliners we all love around here. :)
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Sat May 19, 2018 5:24 am

Revelation wrote:
Indeed, but since you said it's about money not theology, who's making money here?

Depends on the next move. Who here doesn't believe that Bolton's already pissing in Trump's ear about attempting to invade Iran? ...a mistake that will likely make Iraq seem like child's play.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ap305
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Re: WTO issues appeal decision on Boeing complaint against Airbus subsidies

Tue May 22, 2018 6:13 am

Airbus will comply with the wto rulings

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-us ... IN0HI?il=0

“We will be announcing this morning a complete package of measures to fully comply with last week’s ruling, putting us basically at a point where we have nothing left to answer and no sanctions possible,” Karl Hennessee, senior vice president and head of litigation at Airbus, told BBC radio’s Today programme.
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