Heard a rumour that VS will switch the Vegas route to LHR and operate it with a B789 from summer '19.
Any VS insiders confirm ?
Whilst LAS does pretty well in premium & upper, the overall loss of available seats will surely hurt.

Source? I’m surprised VS are making any additional 789 plans for the time being unless they are confident the RR issues are almost solved? LAS is a route which requires ETOPS.

It’s a classic LGW leisure route, BA also operate a LAS-LGW. The premium to economy ratio would massively change if the 789 took over

It has been rumoured on V-Flyer since the weekend. It was reportedly notified to Virgin staff late last week. There will also be a reduction in frequency on LAX and an extra flight to BOS, but nothing has been announced.

I think it's entirely possible that VS could operate LAS from both LHR and LGW. Two distinct products, for two different sets of customers.

If they can make slots available for the 789 service then why not? And as to engines, 2019 should see all affected engines hopefully upgraded. Their newer 789 deliveries will also have the Trent 1000-TEN build standard.

Channex757 wrote:

I think it's entirely possible that VS could operate LAS from both LHR and LGW. Two distinct products, for two different sets of customers.

If they can make slots available for the 789 service then why not? And as to engines, 2019 should see all affected engines hopefully upgraded. Their newer 789 deliveries will also have the Trent 1000-TEN build standard.

I was just about to say the same thing. BA manage to run both but have feed at LHR.

I hope it will be an extra from LHR too, otherwise surely Virgin Holidays for one will be unhappy at the loss of so much capacity. With CUN going early next year, I'm wondering what the point of VS having their holiday division is as it doesn't seem they are supporting them much.

I personally would love to see VS do a LGW plus LHR. If BA can do it, so can VS with even better soft product.

With that said, LHR serves BA's connection to the rest of the Europe and World, while VS's presence in LHR only connects to another International destination.

Especially considering the loads on the 744 ex-LGW are quite heavy. Doing LHR only would be a huge loss of Y seats that are usually quite full. Before the "low yield" crowd starts jumping in, fare LAS - LGW and compare the fares with LAX. You maybe surprised. A lot of local Vegas folks take a cheap flight to LAX when going to the UK, just to save money. The fares are high in all classes out of LAS.

Arion640 wrote:

I was just about to say the same thing. BA manage to run both but have feed at LHR.

pasu129 wrote:

If BA can do it, so can VS

The concept is a bit of an anomaly, with the extent of the demand tough to gauge... LAS is one of only two gateways (JFK) on the N.American mainland with same-airline service to both LHR and LGW.

Even ultra-powerful hubs like ATL/DFW/ORD/LAX/SFO haven't been able to justify, require and/or sustain both for any one operator.

If true I bet it's in addition to LGW. LAS to the UK seems to be a really growing market. Can't see them wanting less seats.

If this rumour is true, from where would VS get the slot pair? Are VS/DL sitting on unused slots?

vhtje wrote:

If this rumour is true, from where would VS get the slot pair? Are VS/DL sitting on unused slots?

They can't sit on unused slots at LHR - it is a use it or lose it system - unless a slot is actually used on at least 80% of all possible dates it can be confiscated by the slot coordinators without compensation and reallocated to another airline.
That said, slots that aren't required at the moment can be leased out to other airlines, as long as somebody operates flights at the time specified. These can of course be reclaimed for use by the actual slot owner usually at a season's notice. So there may be VS/DL slots being leased out right now. A second possibility is that while DL owns 49% of VS, AF/KL own 30% and they have lots of slots at LHR, both ones they fly themselves and ones leased to other airlines.

BA have the option of a form of slot sitting by operating additional domestic or shorthaul flights, and also given the sheer number of flights, they might allocate five slots to a route that justifies 4 flights, and only operate each timing on 80% of possible dates, so providing 4 flights a day but legally using five slots. AF/KL and, especially, LH group also have enough slots to use this tactic if they want to. VS do not.

Andy33 wrote:

They can't sit on unused slots at LHR - it is a use it or lose it system - unless a slot is actually used on at least 80% of all possible dates it can be confiscated by the slot coordinators without compensation and reallocated to another airline.
That said, slots that aren't required at the moment can be leased out to other airlines, as long as somebody operates flights at the time specified. These can of course be reclaimed for use by the actual slot owner usually at a season's notice. So there may be VS/DL slots being leased out right now. A second possibility is that while DL owns 49% of VS, AF/KL own 30% and they have lots of slots at LHR, both ones they fly themselves and ones leased to other airlines.

BA have the option of a form of slot sitting by operating additional domestic or shorthaul flights, and also given the sheer number of flights, they might allocate five slots to a route that justifies 4 flights, and only operate each timing on 80% of possible dates, so providing 4 flights a day but legally using five slots. AF/KL and, especially, LH group also have enough slots to use this tactic if they want to. VS do not.

I am aware of all of the above, but thank you for your explanation. I should not have written “unused”, it was a poor choice of word. I should have written “under-utilised”.

If VS/DL aren’t slot sitting or do not have a slot pair leased out to another carrier, from where will the slot pair come?

vhtje wrote:

Andy33 wrote:

They can't sit on unused slots at LHR - it is a use it or lose it system - unless a slot is actually used on at least 80% of all possible dates it can be confiscated by the slot coordinators without compensation and reallocated to another airline.
That said, slots that aren't required at the moment can be leased out to other airlines, as long as somebody operates flights at the time specified. These can of course be reclaimed for use by the actual slot owner usually at a season's notice. So there may be VS/DL slots being leased out right now. A second possibility is that while DL owns 49% of VS, AF/KL own 30% and they have lots of slots at LHR, both ones they fly themselves and ones leased to other airlines.

BA have the option of a form of slot sitting by operating additional domestic or shorthaul flights, and also given the sheer number of flights, they might allocate five slots to a route that justifies 4 flights, and only operate each timing on 80% of possible dates, so providing 4 flights a day but legally using five slots. AF/KL and, especially, LH group also have enough slots to use this tactic if they want to. VS do not.

I am aware of all of the above, but thank you for your explanation. I should not have written “unused”, it was a poor choice of word. I should have written “under-utilised”.

If VS/DL aren’t slot sitting or do not have a slot pair leased out to another carrier, from where will the slot pair come?

There are other sources of Skyteam alliance slots particularly KLM Cityhopper and some VS/DL trading and the previously mentioned up thread reductions in LAX flying just possibly.

What’s just as interesting is that’s one less 744 flight from Gatwick and VS already have plans to take that up to Manchester with two of the ex AB 332 moving south . Certainly a deck chair moving experiment going on imho.

Seems all the 333s will be back at LHR next year for the East Coast and Dubai with West Coast Delhi and Shanghai on the 789. They will also have the first A35J in fleet probably going on the JFK peak flight initially.

It could be that a LHR-LAS service by Virgin will be them operating it instead of Delta. Pretty sure i read somewhere on here that LAS is a target city for them but they might not have the aircraft to operate their own flight.

What's the VS/DL slot portfolio. In terms of daily departures, for VS it's growing again :
2015S 23
2015W 22
2016S 23
2016W 22
2017S 22
2017W 20
2018S 23

DL
2014W 10
2015S 12
2015W 10
2016S 11
2016W 11
2017S 12
2017W 12
2018S 9

So I guess DL were using some VS slots which have gone back?

rutankrd wrote:

There are other sources of Skyteam alliance slots particularly KLM Cityhopper and some VS/DL trading and the previously mentioned up thread reductions in LAX flying just possibly.

The only thing is though, the DL/VS j/v is not a part of SkyTeam, and it's not public to what extent (if any) LHR still splays in their cooperation with AF/KL/AZ... so while still possible for them to help out DL, it may not be that simple anymore.

As I pointed out upthread, AF/KL actually own 30% of VS stock, so lack of Skyteam membership is irrelevant in their willingness/ability to provide slots.
AZ doesn't own any LHR slots anyway - they sold them all to EY to compensate for the funds EY injected unsuccessfully, and now lease 5 slot pairs back from EY.

The slot at LHR will come from VS reducing LAX from 3 to 2 a day according to that V-flyer thread. Mention of LHR-BOS getting extra frequencies in S19 too.

skipness1E wrote:

What's the VS/DL slot portfolio. In terms of daily departures, for VS it's growing again :
2015S 23
2015W 22
2016S 23
2016W 22
2017S 22
2017W 20
2018S 23

DL
2014W 10
2015S 12
2015W 10
2016S 11
2016W 11
2017S 12
2017W 12
2018S 9

So I guess DL were using some VS slots which have gone back?

I was under the impression that DL "owns" nine slots pairs plus was leasing at least two but as many as three AA/BA consolation slots--but those have to be given back.

3 AF slots DL started using/leasing back in '08 and later bought from AF/KL after the VS deal
3 NW slots (from AZ I think)
1 AZ slot DL bought around 2011/12.
1* Croatia Airlines brought in 2017. (this is only 5 days per week) and is leasing back to them.
1 USAir slot (the PHL slot) that is now no longer required for PHL use.

Then there are also the two SAS slots that many feel DL might have bought for $75m. SK has a lease on them until 2020.

TC957 wrote:

The slot at LHR will come from VS reducing LAX from 3 to 2 a day according to that V-flyer thread. Mention of LHR-BOS getting extra frequencies in S19 too.

I would guess that LAX would upgrade from B789 to A35K at the same time to make up for the lost frequency.

VS now announced daily LHR LAS on 789 in addition to LGW. As well as a second additional daily LHR BOS.

FCAA321 wrote:

VS now announced daily LHR LAS on 789 in addition to LGW. As well as a second additional daily LHR BOS.

Well, that's fab news, even if only copying what BA are doing with London - Vegas. It's about time VS started a new service or re-introduced ones they've dropped in the past. Maybe once they have the full 789 fleet up & running then.

Is LGW-LAS staying or not? Press release isn't clear....

FCAA321 wrote:

VS now announced daily LHR LAS on 789 in addition to LGW. As well as a second additional daily LHR BOS.

Virgin have confirmed the route is moving to LHR.

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/virg ... hrow-14199

Virgin don’t help matters by being cryptic in their press releases to put a positive spin on everything.

I'm curious what the future of VS flights to Asia and Africa are. This relationship seems built entirely around TATL and over time the airline might just become exclusively TATL (with AF/KL providing connectivity to the rest of the world). It seems like VS stabilized once they started focusing on TATL and that will only accelerate now that they can just codeshare on AF and KL flights.

VS has spare LHR slots on lease to other carriers. They're not suited for a second BOS but would work for LAS. Surprised that the 747 capacity on LAS can drop comfortably to a 787, but it is possibly a response to Norwegian at LGW and BA at LHR - getting squeezed on both sides.

Edit - just seen the BOS schedules. Yes, the leased-out slots are suitable as they are planning a daylight BOS-LHR operation and a late evening westbound LHR-BOS. As noted above, LAS looks like a straight swap for the third LHR/LAX introduced this year, which itself replaced ORD.

LHRFlyer wrote:

With CUN being dropped, I do wonder whether the Virgin Holidays Florida/Carribean operation may be sold by Delta.

Do delta own Virgin holidays then?

With CUN being dropped, I do wonder whether the Virgin Holidays Florida/Carribean operation may be sold by Delta.

I believe VS are hoping the move to LHR will allow them to target more corporate conference traffic which will help sell the increased J capacity and the reduction in Y capacity from the LGW 744 will also allow for some better yields.

With CUN going and now LAS moving I wonder if LGW/MAN/GLA/BFS will all move to an all A330 fleet? Having a single fleet type outside LHR would allow VS to have a separate crew base for LGW like they do for MAN which they have longed for but struggled with the practicalities to implement. Additional frequencies can pick up the reduction in capacity and even allow more targeted capacity boosts. Slack in the A330 fleet will start to appear once the A3510 arrive into LHR, I won't be surprised if we never see the A350 at LGW. I also suspect the 2nd JNB and BOS will disappear/won't be repeated once the option of a single larger flight from LHR becomes reality.

Ironically as they’re retiring larger A346s for smaller aircraft today.......c’est la vie.

TC957 wrote:

Heard a rumour that VS will switch the Vegas route to LHR and operate it with a B789 from summer '19.
Any VS insiders confirm ?
Whilst LAS does pretty well in premium & upper, the overall loss of available seats will surely hurt.

Presumably the market is not as good as it used to be with BA flying twice daily and Norwegian flying the route as well... they've obviously crunched the numbers.

vhtje wrote:

If this rumour is true, from where would VS get the slot pair? Are VS/DL sitting on unused slots?

One of the 3 daily LAX flights is being dropped to allow LAS to be operated.

ZuluTime wrote:

VS has spare LHR slots on lease to other carriers. They're not suited for a second BOS but would work for LAS. Surprised that the 747 capacity on LAS can drop comfortably to a 787, but it is possibly a response to Norwegian at LGW and BA at LHR - getting squeezed on both sides.

Edit - just seen the BOS schedules. Yes, the leased-out slots are suitable as they are planning a daylight BOS-LHR operation and a late evening westbound LHR-BOS. As noted above, LAS looks like a straight swap for the third LHR/LAX introduced this year, which itself replaced ORD.

Well LHR used to have a fleet of 747's and all those routes have been downsized to 787 or 330/340.

FCAA321 wrote:

VS now announced daily LHR LAS on 789 in addition to LGW. As well as a second additional daily LHR BOS.

It is not in addition to LGW... this is a swap from LGW to LHR.

LAX772LR wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

I was just about to say the same thing. BA manage to run both but have feed at LHR.

pasu129 wrote:

If BA can do it, so can VS

The concept is a bit of an anomaly, with the extent of the demand tough to gauge... LAS is one of only two gateways (JFK) on the N.American mainland with same-airline service to both LHR and LGW.

Even ultra-powerful hubs like ATL/DFW/ORD/LAX/SFO haven't been able to justify, require and/or sustain both for any one operator.

One of three. YYZ also has BA service to LHR and LGW. You could also consider AC having both if you count Rouge.

I get them moving LAS to LHR. There is too much capacity and competition at the moment. It’s ironic as BA have just added back LGW-LAS. I think a smaller aircraft and out of LHR will help them improve yield on the route - just hope they can fill that larger premium cabin.

I am surprised they are dropping 3rd daily LAX flight. They don’t have much premium capacity as it is and the 3rd flight helped give them enough J seats - yields must not have been good - and probably too much Y capacity.

BOS is interesting - good to see another frequency, and a second daylight BOS-LHR! Previously only BA offered this and I believe it’s very popular. My question is - will the JV keep 3x daily BOS with the DL flight or will that be dropped?

Schedule is quite competitive for BOS
EX LHR there will be morning, afternoon, evening service

EX BOS there be morning, early evening and late evening service

It is sad to see the loss of the VS 744 at LAS that has been there for so long, but my guess is, this maybe the first step in getting out of the Queens all the Economy seats. As for the larger Premium cabin in the 787, I think they will be fine. The nose section Upper Class in the 744 just never had enough seats and sold out rather quick.

AA100 wrote:

I am surprised they are dropping 3rd daily LAX flight. They don’t have much premium capacity as it is and the 3rd flight helped give them enough J seats - yields must not have been good - and probably too much Y capacity.

As someone has already alluded to the chances are it coincides with the introduction of the A350 on the route.
LAX is certainly slated as route No2 for it after JFK.