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Revelation
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 12:49 pm

seat38a wrote:
ual763 wrote:
And Honestly, to me at least, the one thing that’s even worse than unkempt uniforms and bad hygiene/grooming, is seeing FAs smoking their cigarettes at the airport bus stops. I don’t have a problem with them smoking on their own time at home, but when in company uniform, and especially when at the airport in front of passengers, it just looks nasty/trashy imo. And they then also go around all day smelling like cigarette smoke.


Well you obviously never been in front of the International Terminal at any US Airport before. The whole inflight crew of many EU based carrier will stand outside smoking in their uniforms. As I remember AF and AZ seemed to be the worst when it comes to this.

Really? Public smoking grinds your gears?

questions wrote:
UPlog wrote:
I actually could not agree more. As a pilot, we are held to far more stringent dress standards than the boys and girls in the back that seemingly too often make up their own uniform items and manner to be worn.

How are pilots held to “far more stringent dress standards”? How are the standards different than FA’s and how are enforced differently?

Could simply be accepting peer pressure from other pilots rather than company enforcement.

As noted above, it's pretty hard for US companies to enforce these things. How would you decide what clothing wrinkles are acceptable and what ones are not? What about a food stain? How do you measure hair grooming quality? All they can do is issue memos like this one and hope the crews make an effort to improve.
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Pellegrine
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 1:03 pm

ual763 wrote:
I hope this extends to haircuts too. I’ve seen some wildly strange haircuts over the years. The craziest I can remember was a female FO with black corn rows in the back, and then on top of her head she made a literal layered tower that was dyed blonde. Never quite seen something so absurdly strange in my life. Combine this with a sassy I-don’t-care attitude, and that’s the image being portrayed to a couple hundred passengers a day.

Things need to change. This is a great step-forward. I just hope they will start enforcing it.


Here we go. Your personal prejudice about someone's style of hair has nothing to do with professional standards of self-presentation including grooming and dress.

You just sound prejudiced against: corn rows, mohawks, and dyed/bleached hair. It isn't 1953.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
mcdu
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 1:23 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
ual763 wrote:
I hope this extends to haircuts too. I’ve seen some wildly strange haircuts over the years. The craziest I can remember was a female FO with black corn rows in the back, and then on top of her head she made a literal layered tower that was dyed blonde. Never quite seen something so absurdly strange in my life. Combine this with a sassy I-don’t-care attitude, and that’s the image being portrayed to a couple hundred passengers a day.

Things need to change. This is a great step-forward. I just hope they will start enforcing it.


Here we go. Your personal prejudice about someone's style of hair has nothing to do with professional standards of self-presentation including grooming and dress.

You just sound prejudiced against: corn rows, mohawks, and dyed/bleached hair. It isn't 1953.


Uniform quite literally means “the same”. This job is a uniformed job. If you feel you need to express your flair you’ve chosen the wrong line of work. Starbucks is hiring and they don’t appear to have a “uniform”.

There are grooming standards in all of the manuals. Those have been there since prior to any of the current workers took jobs. If you can’t or willing want to be non-compliant then find another job. It is part of the terms you accepted to work for the company.

I personally am not happy with he slide in grooming standards in the job and am glad to see the FA leadership address this. The pilot leadership needs to do the same. I recently saw a man bun being tucked under a pilots hat in the crew lounge. It’s just ridiculous these people can’t comply with the terms they were hired under and accepted to get the job.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 1:38 pm

While I agree with UA attempting to up theirs uniform and grooming standards, interestingly enough I have always though that of the US carriers, UA flight attendants always looked and acted the most professional. I'm not saying that they are necessarily friendly, but dress and act more professionally than the other US carriers. Most wear their jackets and formal vests. The guys look very sharp in the formal vests

The old US Airways was the worst. The shirts always looked like they had been machine washed a million times, there were so many pieces, they all looked totally different, and few wore jackets, vest, or name pins. Sometimes, it was hard to tell the FAs from the passengers

Just my opinion
 
gwrudolph
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 1:40 pm

AirbusA322 wrote:
VX crews were probably the best groomed in the US. Fairly high standards around Uniforms and so on, same at VS/VA.


Yes, I agree. VX FAs always looked professional!
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 1:41 pm

mcdu wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
ual763 wrote:
I hope this extends to haircuts too. I’ve seen some wildly strange haircuts over the years. The craziest I can remember was a female FO with black corn rows in the back, and then on top of her head she made a literal layered tower that was dyed blonde. Never quite seen something so absurdly strange in my life. Combine this with a sassy I-don’t-care attitude, and that’s the image being portrayed to a couple hundred passengers a day.

Things need to change. This is a great step-forward. I just hope they will start enforcing it.


Here we go. Your personal prejudice about someone's style of hair has nothing to do with professional standards of self-presentation including grooming and dress.

You just sound prejudiced against: corn rows, mohawks, and dyed/bleached hair. It isn't 1953.


Uniform quite literally means “the same”. This job is a uniformed job. If you feel you need to express your flair you’ve chosen the wrong line of work. Starbucks is hiring and they don’t appear to have a “uniform”.

There are grooming standards in all of the manuals. Those have been there since prior to any of the current workers took jobs. If you can’t or willing want to be non-compliant then find another job. It is part of the terms you accepted to work for the company.

I personally am not happy with he slide in grooming standards in the job and am glad to see the FA leadership address this. The pilot leadership needs to do the same. I recently saw a man bun being tucked under a pilots hat in the crew lounge. It’s just ridiculous these people can’t comply with the terms they were hired under and accepted to get the job.


Starbucks has a uniform. You see them all wearing green aprons don't you? Actually, I don't know why you are insinuating that working for Starbucks is a less prestigious job than working for an airline. Junior or regional airline FAs don't get paid that much.

Again, grooming has nothing to do with choice of hairstyle in the United States. And if someone is talking about banning certain ethnic styles like braids or locs, they're a prejudiced person who needs to be called on it.

Frankly, if you want better service domestically, fly first class. Coach isn't any different than a greyhound bus. It's 2018 not 1953.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
ual763
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 1:48 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

Here we go. Your personal prejudice about someone's style of hair has nothing to do with professional standards of self-presentation including grooming and dress.

You just sound prejudiced against: corn rows, mohawks, and dyed/bleached hair. It isn't 1953.


Uniform quite literally means “the same”. This job is a uniformed job. If you feel you need to express your flair you’ve chosen the wrong line of work. Starbucks is hiring and they don’t appear to have a “uniform”.

There are grooming standards in all of the manuals. Those have been there since prior to any of the current workers took jobs. If you can’t or willing want to be non-compliant then find another job. It is part of the terms you accepted to work for the company.

I personally am not happy with he slide in grooming standards in the job and am glad to see the FA leadership address this. The pilot leadership needs to do the same. I recently saw a man bun being tucked under a pilots hat in the crew lounge. It’s just ridiculous these people can’t comply with the terms they were hired under and accepted to get the job.


Starbucks has a uniform. You see them all wearing green aprons don't you? Actually, I don't know why you are insinuating that working for Starbucks is a less prestigious job than working for an airline. Junior or regional airline FAs don't get paid that much.

Again, grooming has nothing to do with choice of hairstyle in the United States. And if someone is talking about banning certain ethnic styles like braids or locs, they're a prejudiced person who needs to be called on it.

Frankly, if you want better service domestically, fly first class. Coach isn't any different than a greyhound bus. It's 2018 not 1953.


So now I’m racist? It clearly states in the manuals that these sort of haircuts are not allowed. You can be black, or any other color for that matter, and still present yourself in a professional manner. I’m guessing you’d think it’s fine if a FA chose to come to work with her hair died neon blue too?
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 1:57 pm

ual763 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
mcdu wrote:

Uniform quite literally means “the same”. This job is a uniformed job. If you feel you need to express your flair you’ve chosen the wrong line of work. Starbucks is hiring and they don’t appear to have a “uniform”.

There are grooming standards in all of the manuals. Those have been there since prior to any of the current workers took jobs. If you can’t or willing want to be non-compliant then find another job. It is part of the terms you accepted to work for the company.

I personally am not happy with he slide in grooming standards in the job and am glad to see the FA leadership address this. The pilot leadership needs to do the same. I recently saw a man bun being tucked under a pilots hat in the crew lounge. It’s just ridiculous these people can’t comply with the terms they were hired under and accepted to get the job.


Starbucks has a uniform. You see them all wearing green aprons don't you? Actually, I don't know why you are insinuating that working for Starbucks is a less prestigious job than working for an airline. Junior or regional airline FAs don't get paid that much.

Again, grooming has nothing to do with choice of hairstyle in the United States. And if someone is talking about banning certain ethnic styles like braids or locs, they're a prejudiced person who needs to be called on it.

Frankly, if you want better service domestically, fly first class. Coach isn't any different than a greyhound bus. It's 2018 not 1953.


So now I’m racist? It clearly states in the manuals that these sort of haircuts are not allowed. You can be black, or any other color for that matter, and still present yourself in a professional manner. I’m guessing you’d think it’s fine if a FA chose to come to work with her hair died neon blue too?


I don't know enough about you to call you a racist and I did not call you that, reread what I wrote. I wrote if someone has a problem with braids or locs on ethnicities that historically wear these styles that is the definition of prejudice.

Nope, I see nothing wrong with blue, pink, purple, orange, green, whatever hair. Just because someone has a different color or style hair does not make it unkempt. Such attitudes are old fashioned.

Unkempt would be: unstyled bed hair, scraggly beards, wrinkled/wrong size clothes, scuffed/broken up shoes, dirty clothes, body odor, and the like.

A male pilot with a bun does not count as unkempt in the 21st century.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
Lootess
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 2:05 pm

Personally, I believe the relaxed uniform culture stems from having the same uniform too long. I've always noticed it back with NW, and now UA.

The excitement isn't there anymore. Maybe an FA catches a wrinkle or stain in the middle of a trip, during year seven of the uniform, so they probably aren't as compelled to go out of their way to get it serviced before they set foot at work again. Maybe they decide to do some questionable band-aid fixes, or none. However once all FAs gets a completely new uniform, it's like the culture completely changes. Everyone around you is dressed perfect, so anything out of the ordinary and you're easily spotted. Not as easy when uniforms are showing their age. Wearing bad shoes or skirts just won't be permitted when everyone else looks sharp. UA has new uniforms from Brooks Brothers coming, so they should last.

There might be some tokens at DL with someone's white shirt with the color collar, sometimes it looks like it needs to be replaced or professionally laundered. The Richard Tyler uniforms seem to have held up pretty well for 10 years especially the dresses and coats, and it could be some former NW employees which have less time on them. NW uniforms before the DL merger, they looked so ready to be replaced.
 
WIederling
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 2:09 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
I think this is largely a US issue. I find that Americans, in general, care less about grooming standards than many other western countries around the world. Americans also value individualism so it has to be difficult for airlines and other employers to enforce strict uniform standards. Ever seen the crew line at airport customs and immigrations areas? You can always spot the US crews as many crewmembers appear rather sloppy and unkempt.


The corporate environment in the US seems to be much more dominated by "uniformness" than elsewhere.
3piece suits, uniformed guards, desk personnel, .... a bit of of a gulf between reality and perception.

Putting someone in a uniform is no guarantee that it will look pretty. :-.)
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codc10
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 2:22 pm

^^^ No need for this to turn into a body-shaming thread. :thumbsdown:

Max Q wrote:
questions wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Here is the memo article mentions that was shared with me.

I actually could not agree more. As a pilot, we are held to far more stringent dress standards than the boys and girls in the back that seemingly too often make up their own uniform items and manner to be worn.



How are pilots held to “far more stringent dress standards”? How are the standards different than FA’s and how are enforced differently?




Never seen Pilots held to a higher dress standard than FA’s, not the case at my airline and it seems doubtful anywhere else


What I do think looks ridiculous is airline
Pilots wearing leather jackets instead of the
proper Uniform coat


Top gun wannabes perhaps


I think it has to do with the fact that there is less variation with the pilot uniform guidelines. The leather jacket and hat/no hat are about it, and that's just limited to domestic. I know plenty of pilots who get custom uniform pieces (shirts and slacks) that look identical but are more comfortable than the standard-issue stuff, but the general appearance of the uniform is pretty much standardized. Well, I guess there's the "slick tie" issue, too, but that is another can of worms...!

Personal grooming can be an issue with pilots just the same.

OTOH, flight attendants have a mix-and-match wardrobe, and there are some (approved) uniform combinations which look decidedly more professional than others.
 
DoctorVenkman
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 2:27 pm

People complaining about hairstyles are entering "old man yells at clouds" territory. Get with the times. Stuffy dress codes are going away en masse in many industries. My company recently switched from business formal (i.e. suits) to casual (i.e. anything but shorts and sandals) and everyone is much happier!

Who cares what someone looks like as long as the service is adequate? Does someone's hairstyle make them less friendly? Does a wrinkled shirt make the food taste worse? The only part of "grooming" that I think is reasonable is that someone does not have a detectable odor which is universally unpleasant. Everything else is subjective - what you dislike might be enjoyed by someone else.

As long as the uniform makes it clear that the person is crew, it's served its purpose. The point of a uniform is not to uphold arbitrary grooming standards - it's to let passengers know who is crew and what is their role.
 
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CobraKai
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 2:38 pm

I remember back in 2011 when AA had the "Face of Your Base" contest, where crews could vote on who in their base always showed up to work looking professional and well put together to address exactly the same issue. However, AA's unions practically crucified management for the idea, equating it with taking the airline back to the days of weigh-ins, so it was dropped and AA crews continued to look like crap.

Glad that UA was able to get labor on board with this.
 
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spinotter
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 2:52 pm

jetero wrote:
Curious as to why this is worthy of discussion ...


It is worthy of discussion because human beings have always been interested in clothing, grooming, and how the various people in the world manage their attire and appearance for good or for bad. Posters here seem to be in agreement that American crews are more sloppy looking. If so, why and how to change it? Endless matter for speculation.
 
ual763
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 2:53 pm

DoctorVenkman wrote:
People complaining about hairstyles are entering "old man yells at clouds" territory. Get with the times. Stuffy dress codes are going away en masse in many industries. My company recently switched from business formal (i.e. suits) to casual (i.e. anything but shorts and sandals) and everyone is much happier!

Who cares what someone looks like as long as the service is adequate? Does someone's hairstyle make them less friendly? Does a wrinkled shirt make the food taste worse? The only part of "grooming" that I think is reasonable is that someone does not have a detectable odor which is universally unpleasant. Everything else is subjective - what you dislike might be enjoyed by someone else.

As long as the uniform makes it clear that the person is crew, it's served its purpose. The point of a uniform is not to uphold arbitrary grooming standards - it's to let passengers know who is crew and what is their role.


The difference is that we are in the service industry, not an office.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
DoctorVenkman
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 2:59 pm

ual763 wrote:
DoctorVenkman wrote:
People complaining about hairstyles are entering "old man yells at clouds" territory. Get with the times. Stuffy dress codes are going away en masse in many industries. My company recently switched from business formal (i.e. suits) to casual (i.e. anything but shorts and sandals) and everyone is much happier!

Who cares what someone looks like as long as the service is adequate? Does someone's hairstyle make them less friendly? Does a wrinkled shirt make the food taste worse? The only part of "grooming" that I think is reasonable is that someone does not have a detectable odor which is universally unpleasant. Everything else is subjective - what you dislike might be enjoyed by someone else.

As long as the uniform makes it clear that the person is crew, it's served its purpose. The point of a uniform is not to uphold arbitrary grooming standards - it's to let passengers know who is crew and what is their role.


The difference is that we are in the service industry, not an office.


Read my second and third paragraphs. Service is not impacted by the way someone is dressed or groomed, despite what old fashioned thinking might say. As long as a uniform identifies that person as an employee, it's served its purpose. Starbucks is a great example of a uniform that is very noticeable for customers (green apron) but does not impose arbitrary standards on its employees.
 
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tlecam
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 3:01 pm

I don't think that this is just a UA problem or even an airline problem. My firm is client facing and has a flexible policy where employees can where business casual when appropriate and business formal when appropriate. While the flexibility is broadly good, there are people who constantly need to be reminded that our policy has a polite way of saying that:

- your slip-on take the dog out Merrill's or other shoes are not appropriate for business. You should be in leather shoes and they should be polished, and not in need of new laces, heels or soles.
- Black jeans are still jeans and are not, in fact, business casual. When there is a jeans day, your yard work jeans are not appropriate for work, and your jeans should have a belt. And jeans days doesn't mean that you get to wear your aging Bruce Springsteen concert t-shirt with sneakers.
- Neither are your golf club / country club polo shirts. You should be in a button down dress shirt for work.
- Your clothes should fit by standard "fit" conventions, which means that they shouldn't be sizes too big or too small
- Business formal is still expected and your 10 year old black funeral suit is not appropriate for a work meeting.

No one likes addressing inappropriate attire and it's a lot easier if people use common sense, pay attention to it and don't push the envelope.
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mcdu
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 3:04 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

Here we go. Your personal prejudice about someone's style of hair has nothing to do with professional standards of self-presentation including grooming and dress.

You just sound prejudiced against: corn rows, mohawks, and dyed/bleached hair. It isn't 1953.


Uniform quite literally means “the same”. This job is a uniformed job. If you feel you need to express your flair you’ve chosen the wrong line of work. Starbucks is hiring and they don’t appear to have a “uniform”.

There are grooming standards in all of the manuals. Those have been there since prior to any of the current workers took jobs. If you can’t or willing want to be non-compliant then find another job. It is part of the terms you accepted to work for the company.

I personally am not happy with he slide in grooming standards in the job and am glad to see the FA leadership address this. The pilot leadership needs to do the same. I recently saw a man bun being tucked under a pilots hat in the crew lounge. It’s just ridiculous these people can’t comply with the terms they were hired under and accepted to get the job.


Starbucks has a uniform. You see them all wearing green aprons don't you? Actually, I don't know why you are insinuating that working for Starbucks is a less prestigious job than working for an airline. Junior or regional airline FAs don't get paid that much.

Again, grooming has nothing to do with choice of hairstyle in the United States. And if someone is talking about banning certain ethnic styles like braids or locs, they're a prejudiced person who needs to be called on it.

Frankly, if you want better service domestically, fly first class. Coach isn't any different than a greyhound bus. It's 2018 not 1953.


Grooming and hairstyle is defined in the working agreements. Starbucks may very well have bib that they all wear their is no “uniform” dress. They wear whatever they like under those green bibs. I’m bekittling Starbucks it’s just a prominent example of a non uniform employer. So if outlandish hair is your thing along with piercings and tattoos the airlines are not for you. There are other employers that allow you to express your creative canvass of your body. It’s not my preference and I am glad my job has higher standards.
 
DoctorVenkman
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 3:05 pm

tlecam wrote:
I don't think that this is just a UA problem or even an airline problem. My firm is client facing and has a flexible policy where employees can where business casual when appropriate and business formal when appropriate. While the flexibility is broadly good, there are people who constantly need to be reminded that our policy has a polite way of saying that:

- your slip-on take the dog out Merrill's or other shoes are not appropriate for business. You should be in leather shoes and they should be polished, and not in need of new laces, heels or soles.
- Black jeans are still jeans and are not, in fact, business casual. When there is a jeans day, your yard work jeans are not appropriate for work, and your jeans should have a belt. And jeans days doesn't mean that you get to wear your aging Bruce Springsteen concert t-shirt with sneakers.
- Neither are your golf club / country club polo shirts. You should be in a button down dress shirt for work.
- Your clothes should fit by standard "fit" conventions, which means that they shouldn't be sizes too big or too small
- Business formal is still expected and your 10 year old black funeral suit is not appropriate for a work meeting.

No one likes addressing inappropriate attire and it's a lot easier if people use common sense, pay attention to it and don't push the envelope.


Why does any of this matter? It seems pretty arbitrary and honestly you come across as someone who likes to put your nose into other people's business. As long as the employee is successfully completing their duties, why does it matter what they look like?
 
mcdu
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 3:08 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

Starbucks has a uniform. You see them all wearing green aprons don't you? Actually, I don't know why you are insinuating that working for Starbucks is a less prestigious job than working for an airline. Junior or regional airline FAs don't get paid that much.

Again, grooming has nothing to do with choice of hairstyle in the United States. And if someone is talking about banning certain ethnic styles like braids or locs, they're a prejudiced person who needs to be called on it.

Frankly, if you want better service domestically, fly first class. Coach isn't any different than a greyhound bus. It's 2018 not 1953.


So now I’m racist? It clearly states in the manuals that these sort of haircuts are not allowed. You can be black, or any other color for that matter, and still present yourself in a professional manner. I’m guessing you’d think it’s fine if a FA chose to come to work with her hair died neon blue too?


I don't know enough about you to call you a racist and I did not call you that, reread what I wrote. I wrote if someone has a problem with braids or locs on ethnicities that historically wear these styles that is the definition of prejudice.

Nope, I see nothing wrong with blue, pink, purple, orange, green, whatever hair. Just because someone has a different color or style hair does not make it unkempt. Such attitudes are old fashioned.

Unkempt would be: unstyled bed hair, scraggly beards, wrinkled/wrong size clothes, scuffed/broken up shoes, dirty clothes, body odor, and the like.

A male pilot with a bun does not count as unkempt in the 21st century.


Actually a man bun is not allowed per our appearance guidelines. Had the gentleman been on my crew he would not have flown. That is the only way to stop the creep to non compliance being okay. Stop the offenders or help them find another line of work.
 
DoctorVenkman
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 3:12 pm

mcdu wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
ual763 wrote:

So now I’m racist? It clearly states in the manuals that these sort of haircuts are not allowed. You can be black, or any other color for that matter, and still present yourself in a professional manner. I’m guessing you’d think it’s fine if a FA chose to come to work with her hair died neon blue too?


I don't know enough about you to call you a racist and I did not call you that, reread what I wrote. I wrote if someone has a problem with braids or locs on ethnicities that historically wear these styles that is the definition of prejudice.

Nope, I see nothing wrong with blue, pink, purple, orange, green, whatever hair. Just because someone has a different color or style hair does not make it unkempt. Such attitudes are old fashioned.

Unkempt would be: unstyled bed hair, scraggly beards, wrinkled/wrong size clothes, scuffed/broken up shoes, dirty clothes, body odor, and the like.

A male pilot with a bun does not count as unkempt in the 21st century.


Actually a man bun is not allowed per our appearance guidelines. Had the gentleman been on my crew he would not have flown. That is the only way to stop the creep to non compliance being okay. Stop the offenders or help them find another line of work.


Do you get satisfaction from exerting your authority and putting yourself above others? That's the only explanation for your posts that I can think of... how could a man bun possibly have any impact on a pilot's ability to fly a plane?
 
seat24charlie
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 3:30 pm

72 posts in and I'm the first to ask if perhaps we could question whether the paltry salaries and minimal rest that so many crew are subject to now could play at least some role in 'grooming standards'?

Not saying it's an excuse, but if I were spending half my time in a crash pad and living on a mid-20s salary, I think my 'grooming' might slip a little, too.
 
bgm
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 3:38 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
Unkempt would be: unstyled bed hair, scraggly beards, wrinkled/wrong size clothes, scuffed/broken up shoes, dirty clothes, body odor, and the like.


With the exception of body odor, you've pretty much described the average flight attendant in the US.
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manny
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 3:39 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Professionalism is the word you are looking for and lack of it is what causes adults to present themselves in such a manner.


But professionals get paid.
 
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PPVLC
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 3:49 pm

jetero wrote:
Curious as to why this is worthy of discussion ...



Because it's related to Aviation
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PPVLC
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 3:55 pm

seat24charlie wrote:
72 posts in and I'm the first to ask if perhaps we could question whether the paltry salaries and minimal rest that so many crew are subject to now could play at least some role in 'grooming standards'?

Not saying it's an excuse, but if I were spending half my time in a crash pad and living on a mid-20s salary, I think my 'grooming' might slip a little, too.


I'm sure they look their best for the interviews and they knew how much they would make at the end of the month. I took part in interviewing boards and I can assure you candidates are informed of the demands of the job as well as wages, they all saiy "oh yes, of course, that sounds wonderful".
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USAirALB
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 4:08 pm

It isn’t unique to UA.

I saw an AA a year back wearing an old blanket around her body (like a shawl) while serving F and one of the YCL FAs had his lip and nose pierced, and he was serving food. I thought that was against food safety policies.
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Indy
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 4:11 pm

Could some of this be an issue of pay? Perhaps FAs don't feel like they get paid enough to constantly replace clothing every time something gets stained at work. Same goes for the shoes. It isn't cheap to replace these items. It is worse if the pay is poor. Then there is attitude. Someone at a poor paying job once told me "They pay me to show up. They don't pay me to care." We always tell consumers "you get what you pay for." Same is true for employers. They are a consumer of labor and they get what they pay for. You aren't going to get first class service for a coach fare.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Ionosphere
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 4:18 pm

I think AA has the worst problem right now looking uniformed. You have FAs that are wearing clothes they purchased themselves and uniforms from both AA & UA. I've recently seen AA FAs were uniform pieces that were discontinued in 1998. Mgmt really needs to figure out how to provide a nontoxic uniform.
 
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UPlog
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 4:20 pm

questions wrote:
UPlog wrote:

How are pilots held to “far more stringent dress standards”? How are the standards different than FA’s and how are enforced differently?


Atleast at my company, our policy is enforced by flight ops management regarding host of things like use of short/long sleeve shirts (they are defined by the theater of operation and date), hat on/off policy, coats etc, ability to wear alternate ties etc.

I have personally found flight ops management quite cognizant of pilot appearance when on duty.
 
sgbroimp
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 5:12 pm

Years ago my wife and I were watching crews come through security at FRA. We could not exactly tell the airline, but a couple groups came through looking trim, nicely tailored uniforms, well groomed, etc. and then after a bit a group looking just the opposite came through...overweight, wrinkled uniforms, just a very sloppy impression. First group as it turns out was LH, the second was US Airways. Even today you will see some major differences and not in our favor generally. Made me feel a bit embarrassed.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 5:16 pm

Indy wrote:
Could some of this be an issue of pay? Perhaps FAs don't feel like they get paid enough to constantly replace clothing every time something gets stained at work. Same goes for the shoes. It isn't cheap to replace these items. It is worse if the pay is poor.


It might be tough for the first year or two - the same way college grads struggle when starting to pay off student loans. But with a little time UA FA jobs are pretty well-paying jobs.

You also run into the 'It's what you signed up for' argument. Claiming it doesn't pay well enough doesn't work.
 
mcdu
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 5:38 pm

Indy wrote:
Could some of this be an issue of pay? Perhaps FAs don't feel like they get paid enough to constantly replace clothing every time something gets stained at work. Same goes for the shoes. It isn't cheap to replace these items. It is worse if the pay is poor. Then there is attitude. Someone at a poor paying job once told me "They pay me to show up. They don't pay me to care." We always tell consumers "you get what you pay for." Same is true for employers. They are a consumer of labor and they get what they pay for. You aren't going to get first class service for a coach fare.


The pay rates were known when hired. If pay isn’t enough to do the the job as you were told and signed up for then go work somewhere else.
Last edited by mcdu on Fri May 18, 2018 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mcdu
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 5:42 pm

DoctorVenkman wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

I don't know enough about you to call you a racist and I did not call you that, reread what I wrote. I wrote if someone has a problem with braids or locs on ethnicities that historically wear these styles that is the definition of prejudice.

Nope, I see nothing wrong with blue, pink, purple, orange, green, whatever hair. Just because someone has a different color or style hair does not make it unkempt. Such attitudes are old fashioned.

Unkempt would be: unstyled bed hair, scraggly beards, wrinkled/wrong size clothes, scuffed/broken up shoes, dirty clothes, body odor, and the like.

A male pilot with a bun does not count as unkempt in the 21st century.


Actually a man bun is not allowed per our appearance guidelines. Had the gentleman been on my crew he would not have flown. That is the only way to stop the creep to non compliance being okay. Stop the offenders or help them find another line of work.


Do you get satisfaction from exerting your authority and putting yourself above others? That's the only explanation for your posts that I can think of... how could a man bun possibly have any impact on a pilot's ability to fly a plane?


It’s company policy. I’m expected to execute the company policy. It’s not my choice on which rules are complied with and which ones we don’t. It’s supposed to be 100% compliance. It’s how we have operated so safely for so many years in the industry. Those unwilling to follow rules are bad additions to the cockpit or cabin.
 
Indy
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 5:58 pm

mcdu wrote:
The pay rates were known when hired. If pay isn’t enough to do the the job as you were told and signed up for then go work somewhere else.


You can just as easily argue the employer knew they were paying a poor wage and the results should have been expected. We cannot put the blame 100% on the worker. It is 50/50. Each side knew what they were getting into. Again... if you are paying a coach fare don't expect first class service. Sorry but anyone that pays a poor wage and expects superior results is quite disillusion. You get what you pay for and nothing more. You can expect all you want but don't complain when your poor financial decisions fail to provide exceptional results. This is true for everything. This applies to consumers of products and consumers of labor.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
kimbra
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 6:09 pm

When boarding/flying UA it reminds me of Wall Mart
 
mcdu
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 6:12 pm

Indy wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The pay rates were known when hired. If pay isn’t enough to do the the job as you were told and signed up for then go work somewhere else.


You can just as easily argue the employer knew they were paying a poor wage and the results should have been expected. We cannot put the blame 100% on the worker. It is 50/50. Each side knew what they were getting into. Again... if you are paying a coach fare don't expect first class service. Sorry but anyone that pays a poor wage and expects superior results is quite disillusion. You get what you pay for and nothing more. You can expect all you want but don't complain when your poor financial decisions fail to provide exceptional results. This is true for everything. This applies to consumers of products and consumers of labor.



The employee is provided a uniform. For pilots dry cleaning is paid for. Not sure for FA's but I do believe they are given new uniform items as they need them.

The pay for the legacy FA's is not that bad for the experience they bring to the table. If the conditions are really as bad you think they are why don't more leave for better paying jobs? There is a general amount of complaining by both pilots and FA's about anything and everything. Rising above those that will never be happy, having some personal standards to look professional and dress per the dress code is an individual issue. If you don't held yourself to standards then you can expect that your boss will. Where did it become that no one is accountable for their actions? If someone posted on twitter a picture of a FA out of uniform there would be a social justice warrior brigade ready to throw rocks at them. However, if the person paying the FA's salary says to straighten up then that is uncalled for?
 
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airportugal310
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 6:29 pm

I don't really understand the one or two SJW's in this thread...what is so hard to understand about "company policy"? Then again no understands SJW's so maybe I just answered my own question
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 6:59 pm

mcdu wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
mcdu wrote:

Uniform quite literally means “the same”. This job is a uniformed job. If you feel you need to express your flair you’ve chosen the wrong line of work. Starbucks is hiring and they don’t appear to have a “uniform”.

There are grooming standards in all of the manuals. Those have been there since prior to any of the current workers took jobs. If you can’t or willing want to be non-compliant then find another job. It is part of the terms you accepted to work for the company.

I personally am not happy with he slide in grooming standards in the job and am glad to see the FA leadership address this. The pilot leadership needs to do the same. I recently saw a man bun being tucked under a pilots hat in the crew lounge. It’s just ridiculous these people can’t comply with the terms they were hired under and accepted to get the job.


Starbucks has a uniform. You see them all wearing green aprons don't you? Actually, I don't know why you are insinuating that working for Starbucks is a less prestigious job than working for an airline. Junior or regional airline FAs don't get paid that much.

Again, grooming has nothing to do with choice of hairstyle in the United States. And if someone is talking about banning certain ethnic styles like braids or locs, they're a prejudiced person who needs to be called on it.

Frankly, if you want better service domestically, fly first class. Coach isn't any different than a greyhound bus. It's 2018 not 1953.



Grooming and hairstyle is defined in the working agreements. Starbucks may very well have bib that they all wear their is no “uniform” dress. They wear whatever they like under those green bibs. I’m bekittling Starbucks it’s just a prominent example of a non uniform employer. So if outlandish hair is your thing along with piercings and tattoos the airlines are not for you. There are other employers that allow you to express your creative canvass of your body. It’s not my preference and I am glad my job has higher standards.


Some of these complaints strictly based on style are antiquated and ridiculous. A pilot with long hair is just that. His hair length, or his tying it up has no relevance on his flying aptitude. "Higher standards" in no way equate with a buzz cut versus a mohawk, and visible piercings or none. I'm glad I don't work for such onerous entities, and I never will, so each to their own.

In fact, I'd rather have the "rock star" FA cabin. I bet they would be a lot more fun. Like I said though, if you want to see a more professional crew, shell out for domestic first. I usually find them more presentable in the manner to which you seem to be accustomed.
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LH707330
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 7:14 pm

DoctorVenkman wrote:
People complaining about hairstyles are entering "old man yells at clouds" territory. Get with the times. Stuffy dress codes are going away en masse in many industries. My company recently switched from business formal (i.e. suits) to casual (i.e. anything but shorts and sandals) and everyone is much happier!


My company is super casual (US West Coast), we'd have a mutiny if someone tried to ban shorts and flip flops. I interviewed a guy once who showed up in a full suit and asked "what's the deal with your beach casual dress code, what do you do when clients show up?" I told him that "they look the same as we do, and that we get on with business." You don't go to Rome and criticize the locals who wear togas....

airportugal310 wrote:
I don't really understand the one or two SJW's in this thread...what is so hard to understand about "company policy"? Then again no understands SJW's so maybe I just answered my own question


Just because something is "company policy" doesn't mean it's a good idea. "Company policy" used to mean not being a minority, fortunately that's changed. As times change, people reassess what they think is important, and policies eventually change to reflect that.
 
737MAX7
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 7:26 pm

I read some of these replies and all I can do is laugh and shake my head.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 8:22 pm

LH707330 wrote:
DoctorVenkman wrote:
People complaining about hairstyles are entering "old man yells at clouds" territory. Get with the times. Stuffy dress codes are going away en masse in many industries. My company recently switched from business formal (i.e. suits) to casual (i.e. anything but shorts and sandals) and everyone is much happier!


My company is super casual (US West Coast), we'd have a mutiny if someone tried to ban shorts and flip flops. I interviewed a guy once who showed up in a full suit and asked "what's the deal with your beach casual dress code, what do you do when clients show up?" I told him that "they look the same as we do, and that we get on with business." You don't go to Rome and criticize the locals who wear togas....

airportugal310 wrote:
I don't really understand the one or two SJW's in this thread...what is so hard to understand about "company policy"? Then again no understands SJW's so maybe I just answered my own question


Just because something is "company policy" doesn't mean it's a good idea. "Company policy" used to mean not being a minority, fortunately that's changed. As times change, people reassess what they think is important, and policies eventually change to reflect that.


Company policy is what you sign up for when you accept a job. If you don't like it, you can certainly drive change if you feel something is outdated or unfair, but you can't just arbitrarily start picking and choosing which policies suit you!
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
mcdu
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 8:31 pm

It seems everyone loves the ME3 and Asian carrier service. Does anyone believe they don’t have rigid uniform and weight/makeup standards that don’t exist at the US carriers.

If you work at a place where flip flops and T-shirt’s is acceptable and you have to have those conditions then that’s great. However, an airline career is certainly not for you.
 
mcdu
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 8:34 pm

LH707330 wrote:
DoctorVenkman wrote:
People complaining about hairstyles are entering "old man yells at clouds" territory. Get with the times. Stuffy dress codes are going away en masse in many industries. My company recently switched from business formal (i.e. suits) to casual (i.e. anything but shorts and sandals) and everyone is much happier!


My company is super casual (US West Coast), we'd have a mutiny if someone tried to ban shorts and flip flops. I interviewed a guy once who showed up in a full suit and asked "what's the deal with your beach casual dress code, what do you do when clients show up?" I told him that "they look the same as we do, and that we get on with business." You don't go to Rome and criticize the locals who wear togas....

airportugal310 wrote:
I don't really understand the one or two SJW's in this thread...what is so hard to understand about "company policy"? Then again no understands SJW's so maybe I just answered my own question


Just because something is "company policy" doesn't mean it's a good idea. "Company policy" used to mean not being a minority, fortunately that's changed. As times change, people reassess what they think is important, and policies eventually change to reflect that.


Actually that company policy is an FAA approved book. It’s the company’s FAR’s so yes it is a good idea. There was never a no minority hiring policy in my company manuals. In fact we go to the high side of the chart in hiring diversity.
 
Super88
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 8:42 pm

Some US crews do look sloppy, like they dont take pride in how they look....Foreign crews always look imaculate, all types and sizes of Foreign crews look great, what I have noticed most is the female’s hair is
Always pulled back and their make up is subtle, unlike Some US crews who look like
Clowns with the make up and hair everywhere...I have friends that work for
DL, UA, WN and to hear some stories they
Tell about how some crew members dress
Is so funny...
 
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tlecam
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 8:51 pm

DoctorVenkman wrote:
tlecam wrote:
I don't think that this is just a UA problem or even an airline problem. My firm is client facing and has a flexible policy where employees can where business casual when appropriate and business formal when appropriate. While the flexibility is broadly good, there are people who constantly need to be reminded that our policy has a polite way of saying that:

- your slip-on take the dog out Merrill's or other shoes are not appropriate for business. You should be in leather shoes and they should be polished, and not in need of new laces, heels or soles.
- Black jeans are still jeans and are not, in fact, business casual. When there is a jeans day, your yard work jeans are not appropriate for work, and your jeans should have a belt. And jeans days doesn't mean that you get to wear your aging Bruce Springsteen concert t-shirt with sneakers.
- Neither are your golf club / country club polo shirts. You should be in a button down dress shirt for work.
- Your clothes should fit by standard "fit" conventions, which means that they shouldn't be sizes too big or too small
- Business formal is still expected and your 10 year old black funeral suit is not appropriate for a work meeting.

No one likes addressing inappropriate attire and it's a lot easier if people use common sense, pay attention to it and don't push the envelope.


Why does any of this matter? It seems pretty arbitrary and honestly you come across as someone who likes to put your nose into other people's business. As long as the employee is successfully completing their duties, why does it matter what they look like?


To me, that's a bizarre response - why does anything matter? Why have standards at all? Why have laws or rules at all? Why can't anyone do whatever they want, whenever they want?

In my case it matters because we're client facing, both in our offices and at our clients' offices. We want to impress our clients and appearances do make impressions. We have flexibility to adjust to what's appropriate in different situations. For something that seems arbitrary (to you), the vast majority of people have no problem following it.

The comment about sticking nose in other peoples business is unnecessary - with some tact and intelligence you could find an appropriate way to make your point without resorting to some sort of personal comment. If I were to follow your lead, you sound like someone who likes to be a disagreeable, contrarian pain in the butt.
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flydude380
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 8:55 pm

I would agree that there are a lot of US crews that are sloppy in their appearance. Both pilots and FAs. Likewise for European Airlines.

There are some crews from particular airlines that are well-groomed. Delta and Southwest spring to mind. As well as Alaska and Hawaiian to a certain extent.

AA is hit and miss, while at United, not all crews are sloppy but there is sloppiness. Those from the international bases such as LHR, HKG and NRT tend to be pretty well groomed.

I’ve also found that those who wear certain uniform pieces tend to make more of an effort. Such as those who choose to wear a dress (especially the red dress or even the navy dress at Delta) tend to take a lot of pride in their appearance. Those who wear a skirt are hit and miss. Those who wear pants/trousers tend to be sloppy!

But of course, as long as someone is competent to do their job that’s all that matters!!
 
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AerJamaica
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 10:41 pm

The mere fact that a VP has actually had to sit down and write this memo in the first place, says it all .....
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LH707330
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 10:57 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
DoctorVenkman wrote:
People complaining about hairstyles are entering "old man yells at clouds" territory. Get with the times. Stuffy dress codes are going away en masse in many industries. My company recently switched from business formal (i.e. suits) to casual (i.e. anything but shorts and sandals) and everyone is much happier!


My company is super casual (US West Coast), we'd have a mutiny if someone tried to ban shorts and flip flops. I interviewed a guy once who showed up in a full suit and asked "what's the deal with your beach casual dress code, what do you do when clients show up?" I told him that "they look the same as we do, and that we get on with business." You don't go to Rome and criticize the locals who wear togas....

airportugal310 wrote:
I don't really understand the one or two SJW's in this thread...what is so hard to understand about "company policy"? Then again no understands SJW's so maybe I just answered my own question


Just because something is "company policy" doesn't mean it's a good idea. "Company policy" used to mean not being a minority, fortunately that's changed. As times change, people reassess what they think is important, and policies eventually change to reflect that.


Company policy is what you sign up for when you accept a job. If you don't like it, you can certainly drive change if you feel something is outdated or unfair, but you can't just arbitrarily start picking and choosing which policies suit you!

I never suggested that one ought to pick and choose, I simply pointed out that policies by themselves are not good or bad. Your earlier post seemed to indicate that policies are rather static, which is why I'm glad you clarified about the change piece.
 
Flighty
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Re: UA tells FAs to stop Sloppy Grooming

Fri May 18, 2018 11:11 pm

I just want to say it’s not about age. Well, many work performance issues do change with age. Some get better. Some decline.

Good, immaculate grooming and good work performance can and should be expected at any age, whether you are a high level attorney, hotel customer facing staff or airline customer facing staff. Was just talking to a hotel exec about how airlines look to, but never seem to match, their practices, even though customers on some level expect it. These issues are the simplest old customer facing issues. FAs... are paid more than any hospitality is workers outside of hotel general managers.

While we are at it... “Primarily here for your safety?” Oh really? Is that what they say in quality hotels, too? No, it’s not. Because it is passive aggressive nonsense. Of course you have safety responsibilities. So do hotel staff. Being in a burning building is no picnic.

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