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emiratesdriver
Posts: 294
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 5:27 am

cougar15 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

you're being unnecessarily argumentative. you well know that he or she means that the freight cargo in back is less valuable than human cargo in back. The pilots lives are equally valuable.
but with only 3 pilots, trained professionals, in a dire situation - they may choose a different course of action hauling cargo than if hauling 300 pax. something as extreme as a water ditching, while never, ever desirable, is certainly something that might be considered with cargo, and utterly rejected with pax. don't get fixated on that extreme example (don't bring up Hudson/Sully), I'm sure there are more subtle scenarios, where different considerations may play into a situation - such as whether to make a specific diversion or not. Freight != pax in that case as well.

So, yes - I say there's a potential for different actions and outcomes between freight and pax operations in emergencies.


The poster making the original cargo comment was grasping at straws to go after the ME3, as usual. Its his/her MO. Next we'll hear that Sir Tim Clark assassinated JFK or something and half of a.net is being paid to cover it up yada yada.

I dont think the above is unnecessarily argumentative. The original point was silly. Tons of cargo aircraft operate safely above us every day. The concern of those pilots is their own safety, not just the cargo so if what they were doing was so horribly unsafe, it wouldn't still be going on.



I feel sorry for having opened this can of worms now! Do you think the pilots of 5X(UPS) 006 would have acted any differently if the Jumbo was full of pax? They would not. look at SR111! Having spent 75% of my time/working life in Airfreight, I found DTW2HYD´s comment highly insulting. Of course an Aircraft full of human life has more value than one filled with Lio Batteries.

But both operate by the same, stringent safety standards! We are discussing crewing on ULH´s. What is wrong with 3 crew on a 13 hr sector? These are 2 crew aircraft. Everyone gets to snooze for 4 hrs en route, everyone arrives happy & safe at the destination. having worked less that 8 hours since clocking on, with 2 guys at the pointy end at all times! Again, what is the issue?

3 crew on such sectors has been a common thing since the early 2000´s with multiple carriers, both European and US based.
But as this is another ´bash EK´ thread, it is suddenly an issue. Well, rest assured, that neither Qatar´s, nore EK´s Mid east - New Zealand flights have only 3 tech crew on them. Apart from QF into LHR (x PER) and a lit of LAO/AU, who really operates such Flights? Those that do have 4 crew.

Economic reality, regardless of the admitted and well defined (global) pilot shortage, means a 10-14 hour sector needs no more that 3 tech crew!

But for what is perceived here as ´ULH´, 12-13, 14 hrs... oh well, each Jockey had to work for 4 or 5 hours (add 2 hrs before departure) ...... what are we discussing?

I wish I could get away with only 7 hrs a day in ´my office´!


Cougar, whilst you speak of a can of worms, I don’t believe your comments are unfair, they are perhaps a little narrow in their scope, but we are all guilty of that.
With respect to 3 crew Ops in the 2000’s well there is a significant difference, back then FTLs were limits rather than targets, scheduling was driven more often than not on a collaborative rather than pejorative basis and of course crews were given significantly longer to recover from trips.
Yes you are correct in respect of the crewing levels on true ULR flights currently operating, but the QF rest and recuperation period after the PER-LHR-LHR is night and day compared to what EK require of their crews.
Ultimately this is about EK using a commercial imperative and expediency to solve a systemic problem borne out of their hubris and miss-management, along the way they are playing fast and loose with risk as well as continuing to alienate a key element of their human resource.
This is a reactive policy, it will be highlighted to the various jurisdictions EK operate into in the form of safety reports and it will I fear contribute to an incident.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 5:45 am

cougar15 wrote:

I wish I could get away with only 7 hrs a day in ´my office´!

Try it out. Set your alarm to go off at random times in the middle of the night for a month. Go and stare at a TV test pattern for a few hours on end without falling asleep. At the end of your time watching the test pattern try and complete a series of complex puzzles. Repeat this for a few months on end. Oh and if you fail the puzzles you die.

We've already had one fatal crash of a ME carrier due to extreme fatigue:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35855678
 
DIJKKIJK
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 5:52 am

They should allow foreign nationals to apply for their cadet program. They'll get all the pilots they need.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
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cougar15
Posts: 1447
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 6:12 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

The poster making the original cargo comment was grasping at straws to go after the ME3, as usual. Its his/her MO. Next we'll hear that Sir Tim Clark assassinated JFK or something and half of a.net is being paid to cover it up yada yada.

I dont think the above is unnecessarily argumentative. The original point was silly. Tons of cargo aircraft operate safely above us every day. The concern of those pilots is their own safety, not just the cargo so if what they were doing was so horribly unsafe, it wouldn't still be going on.



I feel sorry for having opened this can of worms now! Do you think the pilots of 5X(UPS) 006 would have acted any differently if the Jumbo was full of pax? They would not. look at SR111! Having spent 75% of my time/working life in Airfreight, I found DTW2HYD´s comment highly insulting. Of course an Aircraft full of human life has more value than one filled with Lio Batteries.

But both operate by the same, stringent safety standards! We are discussing crewing on ULH´s. What is wrong with 3 crew on a 13 hr sector? These are 2 crew aircraft. Everyone gets to snooze for 4 hrs en route, everyone arrives happy & safe at the destination. having worked less that 8 hours since clocking on, with 2 guys at the pointy end at all times! Again, what is the issue?

3 crew on such sectors has been a common thing since the early 2000´s with multiple carriers, both European and US based.
But as this is another ´bash EK´ thread, it is suddenly an issue. Well, rest assured, that neither Qatar´s, nore EK´s Mid east - New Zealand flights have only 3 tech crew on them. Apart from QF into LHR (x PER) and a lit of LAO/AU, who really operates such Flights? Those that do have 4 crew.

Economic reality, regardless of the admitted and well defined (global) pilot shortage, means a 10-14 hour sector needs no more that 3 tech crew!

But for what is perceived here as ´ULH´, 12-13, 14 hrs... oh well, each Jockey had to work for 4 or 5 hours (add 2 hrs before departure) ...... what are we discussing?

I wish I could get away with only 7 hrs a day in ´my office´!


Cougar, whilst you speak of a can of worms, I don’t believe your comments are unfair, they are perhaps a little narrow in their scope, but we are all guilty of that.
With respect to 3 crew Ops in the 2000’s well there is a significant difference, back then FTLs were limits rather than targets, scheduling was driven more often than not on a collaborative rather than pejorative basis and of course crews were given significantly longer to recover from trips.
Yes you are correct in respect of the crewing levels on true ULR flights currently operating, but the QF rest and recuperation period after the PER-LHR-LHR is night and day compared to what EK require of their crews.
Ultimately this is about EK using a commercial imperative and expediency to solve a systemic problem borne out of their hubris and miss-management, along the way they are playing fast and loose with risk as well as continuing to alienate a key element of their human resource.
This is a reactive policy, it will be highlighted to the various jurisdictions EK operate into in the form of safety reports and it will I fear contribute to an incident.



You know what, I am not even going to argue the toss with you on this one! Yup, FTL limits have changed, it is a sad fact for many a skipper out there!

I know all of you lot are getting cained at present, but don´t you think the bouncy castle is aware of that? More of the same? I do not think Emirates can afford that!
Having a bit of background knowledge, I think your slips are appaling! Something has to and will give......
There were the good days and now, well, it´s all a bit ´challenging´.

SMT have a number of issues to SERIOUSLY revisit, but all the blablabla (edit: on the) the plum is not going to change that , because I think they actually have figured that out themselves!
EK needs to make changes, I expect they (will be forced to) and move forward.
Now if you work there, you will note and see subtle changes! Of course nobody wants to lose face so things are moving slowly.

Let´s talk again in a year or 2 .

Nonetheless, EK has a pilot shortage, is forced to deal with it, so if you have a Captain, first and a second (rather than 2 seconds) to do your (13HR) LH with, well, that is the aviation world (add commercial realities) as it is today! Most legacys had to deal with this years ago (AF447 anyone??) .

So, as the supposed EK fanboy on here.... their rosters suck, the 3% are a laugh , especially when living in the UAE) , days off..... let´s not go there!
But, anyone want to have a simmilar discussion with me about Ryanair or Eurowings...... guess what..........!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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cougar15
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 9:04 am

DIJKKIJK wrote:
They should allow foreign nationals to apply for their cadet program. They'll get all the pilots they need.


That is actually a very good point, but the powers to be want it to be locals. good idea if you have sufficient feed, but...…...they don't so I fully agree with you!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
CRJ900
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 9:30 am

I see several posters argue that the "Middle Eastern way of doing things" is contributing to this mess, but isn't most of EK management North American, European and Australian/NZ men who should be able to cut through with their Western work ethics and work culture?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
brodeurprice
Posts: 36
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 10:29 am

LTCM wrote:
PDPsol wrote:
Why doesn’t EK focus on hiring local Emeraties, rather than depending on foreign pilots and scouring the planet for flying talent? How difficult would it be for EK to set up a massive local training center capable of training hundreds of pilots on an annual basis?

You mean getting arabs to work difficult jobs? Good luck.

ha ha. that was a good one. /s

tell that to the hundreds of thousands of arabs living in the west with university educations working "difficult jobs" to make a living.

dumbass.


if we look at facts, we can see the uae doesn't have hundreds of pilots to train in their centres. some 25% of the population is in their 20s - about 300,000. of that 300 000, perhaps a few thousand would ever be interested in aviation and fewer still would consider careers in aviation over ones in medicine or engineering or other high paying, culturally valued professions. not to mention arabs place high value on family life, and working as a pilot isn't exactly family friendly. if you also take into account that most emirati families are pretty well off, it's not hard to see why "arabs" are not flocking to emirates cadet school.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 10:37 am

DIJKKIJK wrote:
They should allow foreign nationals to apply for their cadet program. They'll get all the pilots they need.


There’s nothing stopping those foreign nationals from applying to cadet programs in their own country or just training for their licences, building up their hours then applying for Emirates.

The last person I would want sitting in a flight deck with me is someone who didn’t want to be anything apart from an Emirates pilot. Once upon a time wannabes would crawl over broken glass to get the opportunity to fly anything from a Piper Cub, Cessna 182, Caravan, ATR or 737. If there are people who are going to apply for EK who consider anything less than a big widebody to be beneath them then they have no place in an airline.
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Mon May 21, 2018 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 10:40 am

CRJ900 wrote:
I see several posters argue that the "Middle Eastern way of doing things" is contributing to this mess, but isn't most of EK management North American, European and Australian/NZ men who should be able to cut through with their Western work ethics and work culture?


That is just throwing a rope to management to climb out of the hole they dug. I bet owners never intended management to buy unnecessary capacity, rake huge amounts of debt, park planes, have a bloated workforce and abuse first-world expats so internet is abuzz.

EK owners did every thing possible to make it easy for this management, still they blew it. Any airline management in the world would love to have such owners.
All posts are just opinions.
 
emiratesdriver
Posts: 294
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 11:14 am

CRJ900 wrote:
I see several posters argue that the "Middle Eastern way of doing things" is contributing to this mess, but isn't most of EK management North American, European and Australian/NZ men who should be able to cut through with their Western work ethics and work culture?


By any normal sense of metrics, you would think so wouldn’t you? But as was stated by a previous DVSP of flight Ops “we work to a different set of metrics in the Middle East”
EK is a place infested with nepotism, combine this with your Income being inseparably linked with an employer issued Visa and you quickly realise that apart from the locals who are a protected species EVERYONE else is one interaction away from being shown the door along with family, kids etc etc etc.
The result of this is that those who fall outside the group think mentality are quickly removed and despite experience, nationality etc you find those that value their job and stability learn too not rock the boat and agree with the head Habibi, which merely reinforces the overinflated opinions many Locals have in their own abilities.
Combine all of this with the systemic self inflicted problems EK have created and you go someway to begin to understand how disfunctional EK can be behind the scenes, far easier to say “yes, good idea” and collect a decent salary for 3-5yrs in management before you can’t stand it anymore, than to say “no, you are wrong” and getting resigned on the spot.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 11:33 am

@emiratesdriver, I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment.

Expats preferred EK over QR because it is run by western management and they will be protected from adversary effects of local culture. Rather management reliving and enjoying their medieval past.

When QR felt the heat about employee treatment, they at-least appear to change(I have no firsthand knowledge to confirm). Not happening at EK.
All posts are just opinions.
 
mutu
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Re: EK pilot shortage, now a safety concern

Mon May 21, 2018 12:02 pm

Barbro wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
QuarkFly wrote:
Hmmm, so somebody will do more than 8-hour duty with only one spare pilot during a 16- hour flight?


Yup, totally in line with what every Euro legacy carrier has been doing for years! 4 was luxury, 3 is economic reality!



Can you provide some detail? I hadn't realised this was the case for EVERY Euro carrier flying long sectors. Surely that isn't the case. What is the distance cut off when 2 becomes 3 or more?

Thanks
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 12:22 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
@emiratesdriver, I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment.

Expats preferred EK over QR because it is run by western management and they will be protected from adversary effects of local culture. Rather management reliving and enjoying their medieval past.

When QR felt the heat about employee treatment, they at-least appear to change(I have no firsthand knowledge to confirm). Not happening at EK.


Dtw2hyd, I’m not sure how long ago your EK experience was, but the reality is as I’ve stated it, the facade that is maintained is just that, policy decisions give the appearance of being decided and implemented in a modern fashion, they are in reality tainted and micromanaged through one persons office. The person I refer too has the rather apt nick name ATC, this local person has been solely responsible for most of the catastrophic missteps in the last 8 years at EK, missteps that are a repeat of the same type of behaviour this individual exhibited during their Gulf Air tenure.
How do I know all this? I have detailed first hand information from multiple expat person(s) who have been in the room when these policies were decided upon along with other instances of on the spot sackings because of perceived slights or disrespectful (not agreeing with the head Habibi) behaviour.
Make no mistake dtw2hyd, whilst your experience may infer EK works in a modern fashion, it is a facade, a quick look around at the various nationalities hard at work v the habibis at Costa, on their phones or just at their desks doing very very little would show this.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 12:29 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
I see several posters argue that the "Middle Eastern way of doing things" is contributing to this mess, but isn't most of EK management North American, European and Australian/NZ men who should be able to cut through with their Western work ethics and work culture?


That is just throwing a rope to management to climb out of the hole they dug. I bet owners never intended management to buy unnecessary capacity, rake huge amounts of debt, park planes, have a bloated workforce and abuse first-world expats so internet is abuzz.

EK owners did every thing possible to make it easy for this management, still they blew it. Any airline management in the world would love to have such owners.



Yup, and their profit margins...……. which as I read had been audited by PWC and, after the US3 ´seriously got up their nose´ will now get some much more credible auditing by PWC! Nuff said
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 2:42 pm

Open-skies agreement has a safety related exit clause. US can exit open-skies or ban few airlines if USDOT thinks partner country is following unsafe practices.
All posts are just opinions.
 
runway24r
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 4:08 pm

For all those arguing about the fact that European legacy carriers have been flying 3 man crews for a long time now, you're absolutely correct.

However, what you have forgotten or don't realise is that the crew usually get a full day off down route, and days off in their home base before and after the duty. The guys and girls flying for the ME3 often get minimum rest before their long flight to JFK, spend 19-20 hours in a hotel down route, fly back and then could quite feasibly have another flight within 18-24 hours of landing back into base. Do that week in, week out, and there's your fatigue.

As a passenger, I'd be far more comfortable with the "European way" and fly 3 man crews any day knowing my pilots are well rested before the duty, and indeed get proper rest down route. Having an extra couple of hours bunk time with a 4 man crew isn't going to eliminate the fatigue.

There has been the Fly Dubai crash already, and certainly 2 out of the 3 ME3 have had some easily avoidable near misses. It's a matter of time, but the mantra is you can always blame the crew so the company washes their hands each time. Sooner or later the holes will all line up.
A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A359, A388, 732, 733, 736, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 773, 77W, 788, 789, CRJ700, MD80
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 4:41 pm

Great post runway24r. It pretty much sums up the situation.
 
goboeing
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 10:15 pm

par13del wrote:
So is anyone going through the latest accidents on long haul flights and showing where 3 versus 4 crew played a factor in the accident?


No need to play dumb here.

What you suggest is finding something that is unquantifiable.

You can never say, "If this flight crew received two additional hours in the bunk during the flight, their alertness would have been sufficient for a safe approach and landing."

But we all know that when you directly deduct hours of break time for sleeping from a trip in both directions, you are raising the fatigue level of the crew.

That is a fact.

And given that fatigue is already a major issue at EK, a problem that already exists is about to get worse.

They're running an airline on hope and coffee.

Something's eventually going to give.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 11:01 pm

goboeing wrote:
par13del wrote:
So is anyone going through the latest accidents on long haul flights and showing where 3 versus 4 crew played a factor in the accident?


What you suggest is finding something that is unquantifiable.

They're running an airline on hope and coffee.

Something's eventually going to give.


And even though it’s unquantifiable you are here stating that you’re right, and sounding like wishing a disgrace to happen and prove yourself. I hope you give up.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Mon May 21, 2018 11:50 pm

Other airlines cancel service if they cannot crew, no one else tried these gimmicks. There were studies, but dropped the idea because study proved it is inherently unsafe.

Are there any European carriers operating (ultra)long-haul flights even to compare.

There is no evidence of EY,QR,SV,SQ,CX,BR,PR,CZ,AC,AM,SA,NZ or QF doing this. Definitely not DL,UL,AA and AI which follow FAA standards.

Cargo flies in one direction, doesn't do round trips. Most are short to medium haul fifth/eight freedom flights. Cargo in pax ULH belly is not a money maker, just another a.net myth.
All posts are just opinions.
 
goboeing
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 12:47 am

Jayafe wrote:
And even though it’s unquantifiable you are here stating that you’re right,


That's because I am right.

When you go from 4 pilots to three, a 14 hour period of block results in 4.7 hours of break/sleep opportunity instead of 7.

Same in the other direction of flight.

So when you cut about five hours of rest out of an ULH trip, fatigue levels will increase.

This is a fact.

Jayafe wrote:
and sounding like wishing a disgrace to happen


The only thing I'm wishing to happen is for EK to treat fatigue as the threat that it is.

By reducing in-flight rest opportunity, they're proving they're not serious about the issue.

I stand by my statement; they are pushing an issue that is already a serious one amongst their pilot group, further in the wrong direction.

That is a disgrace, and should something happen with fatigue being a contributing factor, you can come back to this post right here and think about how you've hoped that people like me "give up."

Jayafe wrote:
I hope you give up.


Give up what?

Give up having an interest in maintaining and improving current safety rules?
 
DIJKKIJK
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 5:52 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:

There’s nothing stopping those foreign nationals from applying to cadet programs in their own country or just training for their licences, building up their hours then applying for Emirates.

The last person I would want sitting in a flight deck with me is someone who didn’t want to be anything apart from an Emirates pilot. Once upon a time wannabes would crawl over broken glass to get the opportunity to fly anything from a Piper Cub, Cessna 182, Caravan, ATR or 737. If there are people who are going to apply for EK who consider anything less than a big widebody to be beneath them then they have no place in an airline.


I was talking about making the cadet program more attractive by allowing foreign nationals, so that the pilot shortage would be overcome. There are many airlines that do not offer cadet programs, and many countries where it is ridiculously expensive for youngsters who are passionate about flying to get a license or build up hours. Emirates can tap into this crowd.

And it is not the pilot's fault if EK decides not to have any narrowbody in its fleet. If you decide to fly for Emirates, the smallest aircraft you'll be flying is the 77L. Take it or leave it.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 6:26 am

DIJKKIJK wrote:
I was talking about making the cadet program more attractive by allowing foreign nationals, so that the pilot shortage would be overcome. There are many airlines that do not offer cadet programs, and many countries where it is ridiculously expensive for youngsters who are passionate about flying to get a license or build up hours. Emirates can tap into this crowd.

And it is not the pilot's fault if EK decides not to have any narrowbody in its fleet. If you decide to fly for Emirates, the smallest aircraft you'll be flying is the 77L. Take it or leave it.


You are missing the point of the EK cadet program. The main goal is far from being a steady source of pilots; it's a job creation program for young Emirates and part of the overall government mandated 'emiratisation program'. It will not, and was never planned to, be the main source of pilots to EK. The main goal is to get young guys off their lazy backs and become productive workers. And that, as anyone who's spent any serious time in those parts of the world will tell you, is nothing but a pipe dream.
Signature. You just read one.
 
BrooklyBOMgal
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 6:38 am

How things have changed at A.net. 10 years ago u mention anything bad about EK, you would get a warning from the Mods.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 6:51 am

BrooklyBOMgal wrote:
How things have changed at A.net. 10 years ago u mention anything bad about EK, you would get a warning from the Mods.


Now you can pee on EK/EM3/Airbus/Europe and the crowd will clap. People....
 
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AirIndia
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 7:00 am

BrooklyBOMgal wrote:
How things have changed at A.net. 10 years ago u mention anything bad about EK, you would get a warning from the Mods.


Make A.net Great Again

Red caps anyone......
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 8:15 am

True to form, EK management are now calling in senior pilots for a “chat” after significant numbers of them registered their concern at the revision of crewing levels, warning letters and threats of dismissal are now occurring. The instruction for this came from the same person who is responsible for the crewing shortage.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 10:36 am

EK should drop multiple frequencies and/or under-performing routes until this is resolved.

They should also create separate crew pools for short,medium, and (ultra) long haul. Rotate every quarter or season. Sure, airline cannot squeeze every last drop of productivity, but they will be healthy and happy.

Tough luck if more planes have to be parked.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 10:56 am

Jayafe wrote:
BrooklyBOMgal wrote:
How things have changed at A.net. 10 years ago u mention anything bad about EK, you would get a warning from the Mods.


Now you can pee on EK/EM3/Airbus/Europe and the crowd will clap. People....

Why so overtly defensive? As if there is no peeing to use your expression on DL/US3/Boeing/USA here?
Puh-leeze. 'Twas ever thus, so if you're waiting for the pity party, good luck.

But if you have an actual argument as to the compelling points made by runway24r, make it.
Otherwise you come across as a crybaby apologist for unsafe practices simply BECAUSE it's EK.
 
worldranger
Topic Author
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 11:34 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
True to form, EK management are now calling in senior pilots for a “chat” after significant numbers of them registered their concern at the revision of crewing levels, warning letters and threats of dismissal are now occurring. The instruction for this came from the same person who is responsible for the crewing shortage.


Rumor or fact? Do you personally know of people who have written to EK mgt expressing safety concerns that are now being disciplined for expressing those concerns.

Because if that’s the case - it’s extemely serious.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 12:17 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
True to form, EK management are now calling in senior pilots for a “chat” after significant numbers of them registered their concern at the revision of crewing levels, warning letters and threats of dismissal are now occurring. The instruction for this came from the same person who is responsible for the crewing shortage.


You don't have to answer if you're not comfortable, but who is the person responsible for these changes? Is it a local person?
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 12:38 pm

Don't know about EK itself, but in typical airline mgmt, the short list would start at the Chief Pilot, then down the Dilbert Table of Organization. [/humour]
 
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william
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 1:34 pm

To EmiratesDriver and all of the knowledgeable posters, thank you for your postings. This post has been very educational, especially into the psyche of ME3 management.
 
ExDubai
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Tue May 22, 2018 5:13 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
True to form, EK management are now calling in senior pilots for a “chat” after significant numbers of them registered their concern at the revision of crewing levels, warning letters and threats of dismissal are now occurring. The instruction for this came from the same person who is responsible for the crewing shortage.

What did you expect? That's the typical EK way how to deal with problems. How many sectors has Brian flown for EK? The short haul guy will show you how to run a long haul business. This is only the start. Much more to come.....
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven
 
worldranger
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed May 23, 2018 4:00 am

 
32andBelow
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed May 23, 2018 4:33 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Don't know about EK itself, but in typical airline mgmt, the short list would start at the Chief Pilot, then down the Dilbert Table of Organization. [/humour]

Huh in most airlines the chief pilot has hardly a say in things like this. It will come from the top level and be mandated. The chief pilot could only bitch if it was actually illegal.
 
worldranger
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed May 23, 2018 5:59 am

The problem they now have is twofold:

1. As more exposure of this problems gets attention on social & mainstream media, the less attractive the airline becomes as an employer to a future pilot

And;

2. The increased workload on the ULR sectors make it less attractive to stay.

The end result is that this could spiral very quickly as the inertia of this problem gathers momentum.

It’s a catch 22; they need 3 man ULR to man the flights but by enacting the policy it will increase the shortage as people head for the exits.

If this was a stock, I’d short it.
 
ExDubai
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed May 23, 2018 8:05 am

worldranger wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
True to form, EK management are now calling in senior pilots for a “chat” after significant numbers of them registered their concern at the revision of crewing levels, warning letters and threats of dismissal are now occurring. The instruction for this came from the same person who is responsible for the crewing shortage.


Rumor or fact? Do you personally know of people who have written to EK mgt expressing safety concerns that are now being disciplined for expressing those concerns.

Because if that’s the case - it’s extemely serious.

I know 2 ex colleagues which had an invitation from the CP. Meeting without tea and bisciuts and a warning letter a couple of Werks later for some BS
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed May 23, 2018 9:52 am

worldranger wrote:
The problem they now have is twofold:

1. As more exposure of this problems gets attention on social & mainstream media, the less attractive the airline becomes as an employer to a future pilot

And;

2. The increased workload on the ULR sectors make it less attractive to stay.

The end result is that this could spiral very quickly as the inertia of this problem gathers momentum.

It’s a catch 22; they need 3 man ULR to man the flights but by enacting the policy it will increase the shortage as people head for the exits.

If this was a stock, I’d short it.


This has been the reality for at least the last 24 months, a quick chat at various times to people who are involved in recruitment and HR showed me they view pilots with a collective amount of disdain as the prevailing sense is that point number 1 you’ve made is part of a concerted effort by pilots to discourage new joiners.
The basis for their view is flawed because it’s based on a fantasy land mentality, when I’m asked, I relate the reality as I live it, rather than the glossy recruitment videos you see online, a bit of honesty goes a long way, perhaps most telling however, many of the individuals included in recruitment videos are no longer working for EK.
To me its a certainty in the same way night follows day that until a top down management change occurs either culturally with actions, not words the downward spiral will continue to accelerate, the decision makers now have no excuse, they have been warned repeatedly.
 
worldranger
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed May 23, 2018 10:51 am

ExDubai wrote:
worldranger wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
True to form, EK management are now calling in senior pilots for a “chat” after significant numbers of them registered their concern at the revision of crewing levels, warning letters and threats of dismissal are now occurring. The instruction for this came from the same person who is responsible for the crewing shortage.


Rumor or fact? Do you personally know of people who have written to EK mgt expressing safety concerns that are now being disciplined for expressing those concerns.

Because if that’s the case - it’s extemely serious.

I know 2 ex colleagues which had an invitation from the CP. Meeting without tea and bisciuts and a warning letter a couple of Werks later for some BS


Read what I wrote - and then answer the question again - “some bs” could be anything
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed May 23, 2018 9:32 pm

I’m just going to leave this link
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1357305&start=150
to a closed thread, just to point out to the doubting fanboys that my predictions regarding a variety of issues have been accurate.
I’m wondering if anyone is actually willing to refute the avalanche of publicly available information regarding the current state of affairs at EK?
It shows to me that these boards contain a great number of MS flight sim experts, but relatively few real world examples of actual industry insiders.
Latest EK pilot news 8 new joiners this week, 11 resignations, and several more aircraft placed in storage at DXB rather than DWC, the rational for that is its easier to hide in plain sight plus the secret is out regarding DWC and parked airframes.
 
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SuperTwin
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed May 23, 2018 10:44 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
I’m just going to leave this link
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1357305&start=150
to a closed thread, just to point out to the doubting fanboys that my predictions regarding a variety of issues have been accurate.
I’m wondering if anyone is actually willing to refute the avalanche of publicly available information regarding the current state of affairs at EK?
It shows to me that these boards contain a great number of MS flight sim experts, but relatively few real world examples of actual industry insiders.
Latest EK pilot news 8 new joiners this week, 11 resignations, and several more aircraft placed in storage at DXB rather than DWC, the rational for that is its easier to hide in plain sight plus the secret is out regarding DWC and parked airframes.


That is a full blown structural crisis. That will show up in the results quickly and it won’t be a quick fix to get things back on track.

Is QR having similar issues as EK?
SuperTwin
 
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william
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Thu May 24, 2018 8:05 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
worldranger wrote:
The problem they now have is twofold:

1. As more exposure of this problems gets attention on social & mainstream media, the less attractive the airline becomes as an employer to a future pilot

And;

2. The increased workload on the ULR sectors make it less attractive to stay.

The end result is that this could spiral very quickly as the inertia of this problem gathers momentum.

It’s a catch 22; they need 3 man ULR to man the flights but by enacting the policy it will increase the shortage as people head for the exits.

If this was a stock, I’d short it.


This has been the reality for at least the last 24 months, a quick chat at various times to people who are involved in recruitment and HR showed me they view pilots with a collective amount of disdain as the prevailing sense is that point number 1 you’ve made is part of a concerted effort by pilots to discourage new joiners.
The basis for their view is flawed because it’s based on a fantasy land mentality, when I’m asked, I relate the reality as I live it, rather than the glossy recruitment videos you see online, a bit of honesty goes a long way, perhaps most telling however, many of the individuals included in recruitment videos are no longer working for EK.
To me its a certainty in the same way night follows day that until a top down management change occurs either culturally with actions, not words the downward spiral will continue to accelerate, the decision makers now have no excuse, they have been warned repeatedly.


Interesting, you see the recruitment videos on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPsDudWT0vY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE5dVV0JkU0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHIGLPGdNmU

Make EK seem like the second coming of Pan Am. In the end the market will fix the situation. Either increase pay, better work conditions or go out of business. As QR is finding out, when operating an airline best to check one's ego at the door.
 
worldranger
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Thu May 24, 2018 8:40 pm

Due to an overwhelming and immediate email campaign from hundreds of EK pilots, mgt have reduced the destinations to 3 from 7 - JFK GRU BOS with 3 man ULR.

This reversal came five days (w) after introduction of announcement.

My understanding is that the next stage of the campaign will be multiple Safety Reports to the relevant destination authorities if the the plan is implemented.

Word from Dubai is that the pilots have been emboldened and that EK are considering abandoning the policy altogether depending on reports filed.

Anyone else hear anything.
 
worldranger
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:57 am

Apparently no pilot shortage according to the chief.

This is spin at a whole new level.

https://skift.com/2018/06/05/emirates-p ... p-flights/
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:00 am

worldranger wrote:
Apparently no pilot shortage according to the chief.

This is spin at a whole new level.

https://skift.com/2018/06/05/emirates-p ... p-flights/



Most likely he is not aware of this tiny short term issue. You know, he has a country to run.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:12 am

Kind of worrisome that BOS is going to be one of the ‘disgruntled destinations.’ Certain peak times notwithstanding, EK struggles to hit 80%LF and now the microscope on the route will be even more focused. Joy.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:59 am

So hang on, a longhaul pilot working an average of 4.7- 6.7 hours, with bunk time thereafter is a risk on a ULH with 3 crew? Add an ´admin hour or 2´ (signon, preflight etc) and we are lucky to hit 8 hours of work . I wonder what the average Euro (probably contracted) LoCo jockey thinks , who reports to base at 0600 AM and get´s back to his car on the parking lot at 1900-2000PM after 4 or 5 sectors?? Or subsitute the Euro guy for a US regional/LCC pilot. Yet we are all happy to fly with them each day.
There is one argument by various posters above I agree with, that relates to slip time (time off between flights), the rest is an EK bash, as we have already established many an airline globally does ULH with 3 tech crew.
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:10 am

cougar15 wrote:
...as we have already established many an airline globally does ULH with 3 tech crew.


Haven't seen the list of other airlines doing 3-crew ULH. Can you post the list.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Emirates Pilot Shortage

Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:16 pm

It's a simple matter of karma coming back to bite. When for years the chief pilot tells everyone "if you don't like it, then leave" and other such hostility from management, there's more than a little schadenfreude felt when people actually do leave.

Air New Zealand's CEO Chris Luxton is absolutely right when he said that airlines are fundamentally a people business. If you keep your people motivated, happy, fulfilled and onside, they will go out of their way to help the company, they will deliver financial returns, customer sanctification and various other KPIs. If you treat them with contempt they won't and you will be in a situation where flightcrew won't even bother doing things like step climbing (which saves the airline a lot of fuel when you do it), where they won't operate into discretion even if they feel up to it....or in the case of at Entebbe last month, where cabin crew are literally jumping out the door onto the tarmac in a suicide attempt.

More broadly though you have an issue where flightcrew are in fear of management and punitive action that might be taken against them if they make a mistake. Not very conducive to an open safety culture.

Personally, I find these kind of issues absolutely fascinating in the sense that there is such a clear difference between what you see in the "numbers" and operational realities. People on this forum love to go on about what a wonderful "numbers driven company" EK is...and maybe it is in some respects, but the numbers in the annual report or in CAPA research don't tell the story of a toxic company culture, employees being worked to the bone and management getting greedier and greedier.

cougar15 wrote:
But both operate by the same, stringent safety standards! We are discussing crewing on ULH´s. What is wrong with 3 crew on a 13 hr sector? These are 2 crew aircraft. Everyone gets to snooze for 4 hrs en route, everyone arrives happy & safe at the destination. having worked less that 8 hours since clocking on, with 2 guys at the pointy end at all times! Again, what is the issue?


It's important to realise that under GCAA (UAE) rules bunk time is not logged. Thus someone flying for Emirates or Etihad will actually fly quite a bit more every month compared to their counterparts at BA/LH/QF/LX etc. That makes a big difference when it comes to fatigue.

cougar15 wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
They should allow foreign nationals to apply for their cadet program. They'll get all the pilots they need.


That is actually a very good point, but the powers to be want it to be locals. good idea if you have sufficient feed, but...…...they don't so I fully agree with you!


Qatar Airways does, don't they?

brodeurprice wrote:
You mean getting arabs to work difficult jobs? Good luck.
ha ha. that was a good one. /s

tell that to the hundreds of thousands of arabs living in the west with university educations working "difficult jobs" to make a living.

dumbass.


I think a distinction needs to be made between "arabs" and "generation X & Y from GCC countries". Generally speaking, the latter group tends to be spoiled thanks to the oil wealth and to have a rather...minimal work ethic. I went to university with a lot of GCC international students like this. Stereotypically speaking; they drove brand new M3s, all had the latest MacBook Pros, participated minimally in class, treated female professors with contempt, had never worked an actual job in their life but always liked to tell everyone about their wealth. Again, these are just stereotypes, but there is more than a little truth in them.

Meanwhile the Syrian gentleman who runs my local kebab store works 0800-1900 six days a week for as long as I can remember (well over a decade).

DIJKKIJK wrote:
There are many airlines that do not offer cadet programs


Overtime, this is going to have to change.

dtw2hyd wrote:
EK should drop multiple frequencies and/or under-performing routes until this is resolved.

They should also create separate crew pools for short,medium, and (ultra) long haul. Rotate every quarter or season. Sure, airline cannot squeeze every last drop of productivity, but they will be healthy and happy.


Why not just coordinate rosters, so that crew members get routine sign on times for a whole roster and coordination of East and Westbound flying. I know planning rosters isn't easy, but surely that is a low hanging fruit in terms of ways to reduce fatigue and make crews better rested.

emiratesdriver wrote:
I relate the reality as I live it, rather than the glossy recruitment videos you see online, a bit of honesty goes a long way, perhaps most telling however, many of the individuals included in recruitment videos are no longer working for EK.

IIRC one of the guys who was in one of the videos had already left at the time it was released.
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