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User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1908
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Thu May 31, 2018 12:36 pm

joejosh999 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
This is just my conclusion/speculation on this video, but I think that the plane did get to an altitude before stalling or whatever happened, so I doubt the flaps were a cause. I would be extremely unlikely, but what if they retracted on the right side? It sure looks like a sudden event, so at this point it could be this, a thrust reverser deployment or a stall due to a high AoA or low thrust. Again, just my two cents.

What a horrible last few seconds.


Some witnesses described a climb to about 2-300 feet and flight time of about 10 seconds. Roll left and then sharp right turn.....Could be flaps, and yes they could retract on one side (I think) if hyd pressure was lost on that side, but defer to 732 drivers. Maybe a simple V1 cut who knows. But they train for that and should be able to climb out?....That video did seem to show pretty asymmetric thrust however. It's hard to explain. An in-flight TR deploy would require a LOT to go wrong. That's unlikely but anything is possible.


Honestly with what we saw in the video I doubt there is a scenario that they haven't considered yet.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
dcajet
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Thu May 31, 2018 2:38 pm

wjcandee wrote:
The NTSB usually gives a public readout of the essence of the CVR and a summary of the FDR. Both should have been read out by now. Am I missing anything, or are the authorities here being surprisingly-quiet?


It is Cuba we are talking about. Things move at their own pace there and if you then involve the US and contacts with the two governments and their agencies,... it will be a while.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
joejosh999
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:01 pm

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:10 pm

Some pictures show inverted wings w flaps extended but I don't know how to tell how far the flaps were put out, I.e. 5 or 15 or whatnot, again defer to 732 experts.
But it does support inversion at impact.
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2224
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:24 pm

Just curious if there is any new information about the possible cause(s) of this crash?
 
Meltshopmax
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:02 pm

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:05 am

None that I've heard ....curious myself
 
dcajet
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:30 pm

El Pais of Madrid, Spain reports from sources in Mexico that "human error" is to be blamed for the crash. Manuel Rodríguez, general manager of Global Air, explained in a statement that the investigations of the Cuban authorities "reveal that the crew took off the aircraft with a very steep angle of ascent, creating a lack of lift that resulted in the crash of the aircraft. ", leaving 112 dead.

Global Airlines, the operator of the 737, said the suspension of its AOC is illegal and accuses the Mexican civil aviation authority of incompetence and bad faith.

https://elpais.com/internacional/2018/0 ... 11902.html
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Mex87
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:33 am

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:10 pm

If corruption is a "human error", yes, the article is right. Everyone knows that Global Air operates aircraft beyond their limits, omits security measures and pays authorities to avoid negative press. Recent intwerviews with former captain, mechanics and stewardess confirms it. But well, it´s Mexico after all. Bribing is worth more than 100+ lives.
Really sad.
 
dangle
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:45 pm

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:47 pm

dcajet wrote:
El Pais of Madrid, Spain reports from sources in Mexico that "human error" is to be blamed for the crash. Manuel Rodríguez, general manager of Global Air, explained in a statement that the investigations of the Cuban authorities "reveal that the crew took off the aircraft with a very steep angle of ascent, creating a lack of lift that resulted in the crash of the aircraft. ", leaving 112 dead.

Global Airlines, the operator of the 737, said the suspension of its AOC is illegal and accuses the Mexican civil aviation authority of incompetence and bad faith.

https://elpais.com/internacional/2018/0 ... 11902.html


BBC's take:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-44858097
 
Meltshopmax
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:02 pm

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:02 pm

Wow. Thanks. A high AOA stall. Wonder if it was tail heavy? Guess we will have to wait for the investigation for details.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7924
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:03 pm

The airline's statement appears only to consider the steep takeoff angle and nothing else. Like, say, a screwed-up CG due to overloading or misloading. Or a failure of some important lift device or component. Seems like they think that it's best to blame the individual pilots. In the US, you are 100 percent liable if your crew screws up, so nobody would do this. But perhaps elsewhere it's seen as a good gamble due to different liability laws. I also question the ability to glean much about crew-error-or-not merely from the FDR that one would have on a 737-200. Maybe it's possible if the control inputs are seen as improper -- but what might have led to them? Was there no stall warning? Stick shaker? Stick pusher (or whatever it's called in the 732)? There's a lot more to be learned here...
 
beechnut
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:08 pm

joejosh999 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Could be flaps, and yes they could retract on one side (I think) if hyd pressure was lost on that side, but defer to 732 drivers. Maybe a simple V1 cut who knows.


Highly unlikely on a Boeing. The flaps/slats are actuated by screw jacks and if hydraulic pressure is lost, the flaps will remain at their last setting. Hydraulic pressure is needed to move the flaps in either direction.

Beech
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Fri May 17, 2019 1:58 pm

aero.de reports now that the crash might have been due to wrong loading: https://www.aero.de/news-31675/Verunglu ... laden.html

@ Moderators: I was told not to post in threads older than six months or something like that, I know. But is it really necessary to start a new thread for this update?
 
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SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: CU972 operated by Global Air down near HAV

Fri May 17, 2019 3:31 pm

Thread bump was approved by moderators.

For the records: In case you want to kick an old thread which has been inactive for more than six months, please ask moderators for permission before making the post. In this case we had a slight "miscommunication",
 
dangle
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:45 pm

Re: Update on CU972 crashed near HAV: Aircraft probably wrongly loaded

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:42 pm

Av Herald has an English translation of the Instituto de Aeronautica Civil de Cuba crash report, with contributing factors including crew training and performance, but also weight and balance calculation errors.

From the article:

According to the load sheet the aircraft departed with a takeoff weight of 99,906 lbs (maximum takeoff weight 108,207 lbs), CG at 17.4% MAC (29% permitted) and the stabilizer position at 5 3/4 units. V1 was computed at 128 KIAS, Vr at 130 KIAS, V2 at 136 KIAS with Vs computed at 113 KIAS.

The IACC determined that the aircraft actually departed with a takeoff weight of 104,020 lbs and the CG at 28.5%. The IACC stated that the load sheet assumed 62 passengers in the front part of the cabin, which however had only a capacity of 54 passengers, the cargo weights were wrong and there was 5000lbs more fuel on board than calculated. The load sheet thus produced mismatches in both mass and distribution of cargo and luggage, fuel weight, center of gravity and position of stabilizer trim. The corrected takeoff performance thus would have been: V1=134 KIAS, Vr=134 KIAS, V2=138 KIAS with Vs at 115 KIAS, stabilizer position at 3 1/4 units


http://avherald.com/h?article=4b8bfb2d/0000&opt=0
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1908
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Update on CU972 crashed near HAV: Aircraft probably wrongly loaded

Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:34 am

Did they figure out what caused the initial right roll? Did I miss that part? It seems pretty weird. I know the 737-800 has a right roll tendency but idk if the same is true for other variants, plus its a very slight tendency so it really shouldn't cause such a rapid turn...
A350/CSeries = bae
 
trijetsonly
Posts: 688
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:38 pm

Re: Update on CU972 crashed near HAV: Aircraft probably wrongly loaded

Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:51 am

OA940 wrote:
Did they figure out what caused the initial right roll? Did I miss that part? It seems pretty weird. I know the 737-800 has a right roll tendency but idk if the same is true for other variants, plus its a very slight tendency so it really shouldn't cause such a rapid turn...


As far as I understand it they didn't completely.
They guess that the unexpected pitch up moment due to the wrong stabilizer setting and the low speed condition due to the higher than expected weight just induced a general instability that lead to a roll moment.
Happy Landings
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1908
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Update on CU972 crashed near HAV: Aircraft probably wrongly loaded

Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:02 am

trijetsonly wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Did they figure out what caused the initial right roll? Did I miss that part? It seems pretty weird. I know the 737-800 has a right roll tendency but idk if the same is true for other variants, plus its a very slight tendency so it really shouldn't cause such a rapid turn...


As far as I understand it they didn't completely.
They guess that the unexpected pitch up moment due to the wrong stabilizer setting and the low speed condition due to the higher than expected weight just induced a general instability that lead to a roll moment.


Oh, they way I understood it was that the right roll happened befoer the pitchup. What you're saying makes more sense though. Guess when they don't release reports in english somethings may get lost in translation
A350/CSeries = bae
 
debonair
Posts: 3532
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:50 pm

Re: Update on CU972 crashed near HAV: Aircraft probably wrongly loaded

Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:50 am

Just curios, according to the report "Contributing factors were: - inconsistencies in crew training" and "In particular no records were available demonstrating that the pilots had undergone recovery from unusual attitudes training.".

Would this crash be avertible? I mean, was there any chance after lift off (V1) for the crew the prevent the crash? What actions should have been taken to prevent the crash?
 
trijetsonly
Posts: 688
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:38 pm

Re: Update on CU972 crashed near HAV: Aircraft probably wrongly loaded

Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:09 pm

debonair wrote:
Just curios, according to the report "Contributing factors were: - inconsistencies in crew training" and "In particular no records were available demonstrating that the pilots had undergone recovery from unusual attitudes training.".

Would this crash be avertible? I mean, was there any chance after lift off (V1) for the crew the prevent the crash? What actions should have been taken to prevent the crash?


Reduce pitch, increase speed, avoid aileron large movements until speed is higher.
Happy Landings
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Update on CU972 crashed near HAV: Aircraft probably wrongly loaded

Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:41 pm

I doubt that such a small difference in Vr can explain the crash. 4kts is nothing.
The trim setting difference is also nothing that couldn't have been compensated for by elevator input.

Plus load sheets have built-in margins.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1908
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Update on CU972 crashed near HAV: Aircraft probably wrongly loaded

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:14 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I doubt that such a small difference in Vr can explain the crash. 4kts is nothing.
The trim setting difference is also nothing that couldn't have been compensated for by elevator input.

Plus load sheets have built-in margins.


It wasn't enough to alone cause the crash, but with a CG that was almost at the aft limit and trim that is 2 units too high, when they went to rotate at a standard rate the aircraft would have lifted off very rapidly, and with the lower speed it would be enough to put the plane in a dangerous situation. Although because they didn't bother writing the report in english I'm not 100% clear on what went on, it looks like the pilots overcorrected the roll (and that's the part that confuses me, like I said before, was the first roll caused by loss of lift?) and didn't pay too much attention to the pitch. The speed alone wouldn't have been a major factor. Couple that in with the CG and the overtrim, it would put the plane in trouble but they should be able to recover. Add poor pilot inputs to the mix and you have a crash. It doesn't take only one of those things to go wrong, but combined they can lead to disaster. Unless something else got lost in translation, but to me this still looks like a proper explanation for a crash.
A350/CSeries = bae
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