User avatar
OzarkD9S
Topic Author
Posts: 5370
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Folding 777 Wingtips

Sat May 19, 2018 2:00 am

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/boei ... 48002.html

This was floated originally when the 777 was first being designed. A bit ahead of it's time.
Finally headed to DORKFEST! Sept 7, STL-LAX-PHX-STL. :cloudnine:
 
User avatar
northstardc4m
Posts: 3229
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sat May 19, 2018 2:02 am

It was talked about, AA wanted a 777 that would fit the same gates as DC-10s, but it never was ordered, the weight increase was prohibitive.

The fact they are doing it all over again is interesting though
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
flyinggoat
Posts: 303
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:38 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sat May 19, 2018 2:11 am

The folding wing tips pitched when the 777 was in development included a much larger portion of the 777 wing then what is on the 777x. The original folding wing had its hinge point between the aileron and flaps. The folding section included the aileron (and I suppose leading edge slats too?), which made it much more complicated than what the 777x will have.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12323
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sat May 19, 2018 6:03 am

flyinggoat wrote:
The folding wing tips pitched when the 777 was in development included a much larger portion of the 777 wing then what is on the 777x. The original folding wing had its hinge point between the aileron and flaps. The folding section included the aileron (and I suppose leading edge slats too?), which made it much more complicated than what the 777x will have.

:checkmark: Not only more complicated, but heavier.

And not a single airline ended up wanting/using it. Boeing took any remaining provisions for the option rather soon into the 772's production. None of the 77E/773/77L/77Ws even have the provisions that would make the option possible.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5945
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 2:56 am

Boeing created a video on the subject:

https://www.boeing.com/777x/reveal/vide ... g-Wingtip/
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
Philippine747
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:54 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 3:32 am

There's some concept art for the original 777 folding wing in "Legend and Legacy."
A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 AT75 AT76 B732 B733 B738 B744 B752(M) B763 B772 B77W DHC7 DH8C DH8D D328 MA60

2P 5J 6K CX DG EK GA KE MI PR VN OS QR A3 OK TG RA U4 JL GK UB K7 WE
 
jownes
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:57 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 1:56 pm

Is the foldering wingtip an option or compulsory on all models (esp regarding additional weight)?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9378
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 2:05 pm

jownes wrote:
Is the foldering wingtip an option or compulsory on all models (esp regarding additional weight)?

It is standard.
 
Flyglobal
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:25 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 2:33 pm

And its now FFA approved with some measures to take care. (e.G. make it impossible to move up in flight).


Flyglobal
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 4975
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 2:35 pm

Flyglobal wrote:
And its now FFA approved with some measures to take care. (e.G. make it impossible to move up in flight).


Flyglobal


I think you mean "FAA."
 
dash500
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 4:14 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 3:17 pm

Artist's concept when the Boeing 777 was launched:

Image
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14184
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 3:38 pm

While this would be good for active airports with significant numbers of 777's but tight gate spacing like EWR., it is one more thing that can and will go wrong at the wrong time, reducing dispatch times, higher initial and mx costs.
 
User avatar
KrustyTheKlown
Posts: 347
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:45 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 4:25 pm

The 777-8/9's folding wingtips are not for fitting the plane into smaller gates than those currently used by the 777, they are for increasing the fuel efficiency and hot&high performance of the plane.

The 777-8/9's wingspan with folded wingtips is the same as the 777-300ER's wingspan: 212 ft (64.8m)
 
The777Man
Posts: 6076
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:54 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 4:36 pm

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
The 777-8/9's folding wingtips are not for fitting the plane into smaller gates than those currently used by the 777, they are for increasing the fuel efficiency and hot&high performance of the plane.

The 777-8/9's wingspan with folded wingtips is the same as the 777-300ER's wingspan: 212 ft (64.8m)


well, they are to fit the 77X in to the current 77W/77L wing box area which is very good for current operators. If the 77X couldn't fit into existing 77W/L envelope, that would have created some problems for most operators.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
uta999
Posts: 703
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 4:46 pm

Won't this lead to quite a few cancelled flights in winter, or even in desert climates, when they are inevitably stuck in the up position due to ice, or sand?

Can it still take off if they are u/s? Far simpler to paint new lines on the stands affected.
Your computer just got better
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26315
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 5:14 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
None of the 77E/773/77L/77Ws even have the provisions that would make the option possible.


Actually the first 175 or so were built with the structural provision for folding tips, but without the mechanism. Starting around LN 175 Boeing removed the provisions to save weight.


jownes wrote:
Is the foldering wingtip an option or compulsory on all models (esp regarding additional weight)?


It will be standard on the 777-8 and 777-9.


uta999 wrote:
Won't this lead to quite a few cancelled flights in winter, or even in desert climates, when they are inevitably stuck in the up position due to ice, or sand?


Boeing has extensive experience with much more complicated folding wings from their military aircraft which operate in similar conditions without issue.


uta999 wrote:
Can it still take off if they are u/s?


If the wingtips cannot unfold (either automatically or via manual override), the airframe will not depart, instead returning to the gate for maintenance.


uta999 wrote:
Far simpler to paint new lines on the stands affected.


Some Code E gates may not have the necessary "buffer" between them to allow a 777X with extended wingtips and another 65m span frame (777W, A350) next to it without risking a possible wing-to-wing collision during pushback or arrival.

In such situations, the 777W could be parked next to a frame with a shorter span (767 or 787) to allow sufficient clearance.
 
User avatar
XAM2175
Posts: 1156
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 6:19 pm

uta999 wrote:
Won't this lead to quite a few cancelled flights in winter, or even in desert climates, when they are inevitably stuck in the up position due to ice, or sand?


Does that happen currently with "normal" flight control surfaces? The folding wingtips aren't all that different...

uta999 wrote:
Can it still take off if they are u/s?


As Stitch says - SOP will almost certainly always be "return to gate and rectify". That could be as simple in many cases as manually lowering the tips and locking them in place if a full repair needs to be performed at an MRO centre elsewhere.

uta999 wrote:
Far simpler to paint new lines on the stands affected.


You're missing the point. No stands are "affected" by the 77X wingtips being locked in the flight position, or being made non-folding, because airlines and airports will simply plan to use different stands... of which there will be fewer.

The whole point of the folding tips is for Boeing and the airlines to have their cake and eat it too - a wing design that isn't constrained by wingspan limits when it's in the air but yet can conform to those same limits when on taxiways and stands.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 9:18 pm

Stitch wrote:
uta999 wrote:
Won't this lead to quite a few cancelled flights in winter, or even in desert climates, when they are inevitably stuck in the up position due to ice, or sand?


Boeing has extensive experience with much more complicated folding wings from their military aircraft which operate in similar conditions without issue.

But for military, any issues, and the flight is cancelled, or another aircraft is quickly substituted. Boeing don't yet have experience with such large folding surfaces, operating commercial cycles, for extended periods at altitude.

Wonder what MTBF customers like EK have negotiated, and penalties for under-performance?

Is Boeing seeking FAA approval for commercial flights to operate with both wing tips in the raised position? Or just ferry flights? If the former, that will be an indicator of the level of confidence Boeing has in the mechanism.
 
kevin5345179
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:08 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 9:37 pm

Does anyone know whether wingtip is allowed to carry fuel ?
I suppose no, but just want to be certain
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26315
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 9:47 pm

Planesmart wrote:
But for military, any issues, and the flight is cancelled, or another aircraft is quickly substituted. Boeing don't yet have experience with such large folding surfaces, operating commercial cycles, for extended periods at altitude.


Military folding wings are much more complex and subjected to far more stress than a 777X wingtip will ever see. And I would fully expect that Boeing has performed full-scale testing in extreme heat, extreme cold, extreme sand and other conditions over more cycles than a 777X will ever see in commercial service.


Planesmart wrote:
Wonder what MTBF customers like EK have negotiated, and penalties for under-performance?


No idea, but again, I expect Boeing will perform testing to get a pretty good idea of what the MTBF will be. And it can't be very high, otherwise customers would not have agreed to using them and instead just accepted a fixed Category F wing - or not bothered to order the frame in the first place.


Planesmart wrote:
Is Boeing seeking FAA approval for commercial flights to operate with both wing tips in the raised position? Or just ferry flights? If the former, that will be an indicator of the level of confidence Boeing has in the mechanism.


Neither. If the wing folding mechanism fails on the ground with the wings in the upright position, the frame does not take-off until it's either the automated folding mechanism is fixed or the wingtips are manually extended and locked in the deployed position, at which point the aircraft can take-off.


kevin5345179 wrote:
Does anyone know whether wingtip is allowed to carry fuel?


No. The fuel tanks end before the folding section.
 
Tedd
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:22 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 10:58 pm

I`m not a fan of folding wingtips for airliners. It certainly won`t do anything for the looks of the B777x at the gate,
& I`m not keen on more complication near the extremity of the wing even though its far less complicated than what`s
closer to the fusilage. I also know Boeing will nail the design & actuation, & that it shouldn`t cause problems 99.9%
of the time, but it`s just something else added that could go wrong. Shame IMHO they`ve had to do it, but it will save
a lot of fuel so that alone is a good enough reason to incorperate it.
Once B777x has left the gate, it will look spectacular :)
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8364
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Sun May 20, 2018 11:57 pm

The folding wing tips on the 777-8/9 will only be 3.5 m long each. I would say flaps are bigger and more complicated. Flaps have to move in flight under high loads, the wing tips have only to move on the ground. I do not imagine a lot of trouble in use.
 
User avatar
Acey
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 12:59 am

Stitch wrote:
Some Code E gates may not have the necessary "buffer" between them to allow a 777X with extended wingtips and another 65m span frame (777W, A350) next to it without risking a possible wing-to-wing collision during pushback or arrival.

In such situations, the 777W could be parked next to a frame with a shorter span (767 or 787) to allow sufficient clearance.


A 777X with the wing fold mechanism u/s effectively becomes a code F aircraft, and pretending a code F aircraft is a code E aircraft would absolutely be a no-go at my airport (YYC). We have 2 code F gates, so it'd have to park on one of those, no questions asked.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26315
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 3:46 am

Acey wrote:
A 777X with the wing fold mechanism u/s effectively becomes a code F aircraft, and pretending a code F aircraft is a code E aircraft would absolutely be a no-go at my airport (YYC). We have 2 code F gates, so it'd have to park on one of those, no questions asked.


Using ICAO aerodrome design guidelines, the minimum recommended clearance between the wingtips of adjoining airframes at their respective gates is 7.5m. So for two Code E (65m wide) gates, that could be an issue for a 777X with extended wingtips as the clearance would be ~4.2m if the adjoining frame has a 65m span. If the adjoining frame has a span less than 58m, then the 7.5m clearance would be maintained. Some airports allow less than 7.5m spacing with wing-walkers, visual docking guidance system and other services that provide an acceptable level of safety so at those airports, if the adjoining frame is an A330 (non-neo) or 787 it would not be an issue. Otherwise it would need to be a 767 or smaller.

All that being said, I expect some airports will require specific 777X operation guidelines for non-normal FWTs just as some did for the 747-8 and A380-800.
Last edited by Stitch on Mon May 21, 2018 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26315
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 3:48 am

N328KF wrote:
What's the possibility of Boeing eventually allowing for an option to have wingtips that don't fold? This would ostensibly be used to save weight and allow for more tankage. Call it the 777-8ER/-9ER. Does anyone have an idea of how much volume is lost to the wingtips?


The possibility is effectively zero unless Code F gates become common. And fuel tankage would not extend that far out on the wing regardless of whether the wingtips folded or were fixed structural elements, so there is no fuel volume lost either way.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5945
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 3:51 am

What's the possibility of Boeing eventually allowing for an option to have wingtips that don't fold? This would ostensibly be used to save weight and allow for more tankage. Call it the 777-8ER/-9ER. Does anyone have an idea of how much volume is lost to the wingtips?
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
a320fan
Posts: 772
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 4:48 am

N328KF wrote:
What's the possibility of Boeing eventually allowing for an option to have wingtips that don't fold? This would ostensibly be used to save weight and allow for more tankage. Call it the 777-8ER/-9ER. Does anyone have an idea of how much volume is lost to the wingtips?

None, because the fold point is well outboard of the tanks. People are overcomplicating this system, it's pretty much just the aerodynamically shaped raked wingtip that folds up. There are no flight controls or fuel systems in this part of the wing, just wiring for wing tip lights and maybe anti-ice ducts.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
User avatar
Acey
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 8:37 pm

Stitch wrote:
Acey wrote:
A 777X with the wing fold mechanism u/s effectively becomes a code F aircraft, and pretending a code F aircraft is a code E aircraft would absolutely be a no-go at my airport (YYC). We have 2 code F gates, so it'd have to park on one of those, no questions asked.


Using ICAO aerodrome design guidelines, the minimum recommended clearance between the wingtips of adjoining airframes at their respective gates is 7.5m. So for two Code E (65m wide) gates, that could be an issue for a 777X with extended wingtips as the clearance would be ~4.2m if the adjoining frame has a 65m span. If the adjoining frame has a span less than 58m, then the 7.5m clearance would be maintained. Some airports allow less than 7.5m spacing with wing-walkers, visual docking guidance system and other services that provide an acceptable level of safety so at those airports, if the adjoining frame is an A330 (non-neo) or 787 it would not be an issue. Otherwise it would need to be a 767 or smaller.

All that being said, I expect some airports will require specific 777X operation guidelines for non-normal FWTs just as some did for the 747-8 and A380-800.


At YYC, adjacent aircraft to heavies are often 36 m span 737/320 on staggered lead-in lines, so it's a bit more complex... just based on how moronic the airport has been with regards to everything related to gate procedures it's hard to say what they'll do.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 920
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 9:34 pm

Planesmart wrote:
Stitch wrote:
uta999 wrote:
Won't this lead to quite a few cancelled flights in winter, or even in desert climates, when they are inevitably stuck in the up position due to ice, or sand?


Boeing has extensive experience with much more complicated folding wings from their military aircraft which operate in similar conditions without issue.

But for military, any issues, and the flight is cancelled, or another aircraft is quickly substituted. Boeing don't yet have experience with such large folding surfaces, operating commercial cycles, for extended periods at altitude.

Wonder what MTBF customers like EK have negotiated, and penalties for under-performance?

Is Boeing seeking FAA approval for commercial flights to operate with both wing tips in the raised position? Or just ferry flights? If the former, that will be an indicator of the level of confidence Boeing has in the mechanism.



Boeing released an updated document for airports and operators recently. Can't remember where on here I saw the link. But it did say they have engineered the folding mechanism to have the same reliability as any other important moving part on the airframe. So operators should not see any difference in reliability.

And as mentioned the plane will not be allowed to take off without both winglets down. Even if that mens going back to a hardstand, having them manually locked in position, and being treated as a Code F aircraft. Though I believe there will be some rules for flying without the folding wingtips if they're removed. Either way, no take off without wingtips being unable to move one way or the other.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 10:23 pm

Stitch wrote:
Planesmart wrote:
Wonder what MTBF customers like EK have negotiated, and penalties for under-performance?


No idea, but again, I expect Boeing will perform testing to get a pretty good idea of what the MTBF will be. And it can't be very high, otherwise customers would not have agreed to using them and instead just accepted a fixed Category F wing - or not bothered to order the frame in the first place.

I think you have that reversed. Low MTBF is bad - high is good.
 
User avatar
Jayafe
Posts: 1215
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 11:26 pm

a320fan wrote:
People are overcomplicating this system, it's pretty much just the aerodynamically shaped raked wingtip that folds up. There are no flight controls or fuel systems in this part of the wing, just wiring for wing tip lights and maybe anti-ice ducts.


Maybe? I think you are oversimplifying the system without a clue of what’s in that part of the aircraft and could affect. This a security and operational unacceptable risk, that a manufacturer is trying to put on airports and airlines staff shoulders just to save money in the design board.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17710
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 11:54 pm

I'm amused the wings get so much debate. The 777X engines are far more advanced than anything else. 16 cooling loops where other engines have 4 to 6. More valves, more heat exchangers. Taking variable cycle to the next level. Hottest compressor outlet temperature yet (for commercial). Hottest turbine inlet temperature yet (for commercial). Highest bearing speeds. Highest fan Tip Mach # (all comments for commercial engines).

No links. I've been told stuff I shouldn't have been. :)

Folding wingtips where:
1. Twin locking mechanisms each wingtip and redundant switches on each lock. So no dispatch unless 3 of 4 limit switches are good?
2. Manual ability to lock down wingtips.

Bigger fan diameters weigh more. The GE9X has engines optimized for 5+ hour missions. They would be horrible for maintenance on short flights.

A wing optimized to carry a lot of payload a distance. This is an airframe optimized for 4+ hour missions.



Stitch wrote:
N328KF wrote:
What's the possibility of Boeing eventually allowing for an option to have wingtips that don't fold? This would ostensibly be used to save weight and allow for more tankage. Call it the 777-8ER/-9ER. Does anyone have an idea of how much volume is lost to the wingtips?


The possibility is effectively zero unless Code F gates become common. And fuel tankage would not extend that far out on the wing regardless of whether the wingtips folded or were fixed structural elements, so there is no fuel volume lost either way.

To others:
I'll phrase another way. A code F gate squats on a huge amount of real estate paid for by higher landing fees and the greater quantity of passenger fees and taxes.

There is no business case to force a code E plane, the 777X, to waste code F space. As noted above, there are very few code F gates out there. Hence why Boeing optimized for Code E. Real estate is too precious at most airports.

Airports that allow efficient operations will have an advantage with cargo.

In my opinion, the 777X isn't a passenger plane, it is a combi. All heavy cargo airlines with passenger operations should at least consider it. The 777X might not be the largest niche, but it has a niche.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9378
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Mon May 21, 2018 11:55 pm

Jayafe wrote:
a320fan wrote:
People are overcomplicating this system, it's pretty much just the aerodynamically shaped raked wingtip that folds up. There are no flight controls or fuel systems in this part of the wing, just wiring for wing tip lights and maybe anti-ice ducts.


Maybe? I think you are oversimplifying the system without a clue of what’s in that part of the aircraft and could affect. This a security and operational unacceptable risk, that a manufacturer is trying to put on airports and airlines staff shoulders just to save money in the design board.

Since you are so knowledgeable about what’s in that part of the aircraft and what it could affect perhaps you should enlighten us on these security (lol) and operational risks.

But right now I imagine you are just having yet another another case of NDBA (Not Designed By Airbus) syndrome.
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 12:33 am

Jayafe wrote:
a320fan wrote:
People are overcomplicating this system, it's pretty much just the aerodynamically shaped raked wingtip that folds up. There are no flight controls or fuel systems in this part of the wing, just wiring for wing tip lights and maybe anti-ice ducts.


Maybe? I think you are oversimplifying the system without a clue of what’s in that part of the aircraft and could affect. This a security and operational unacceptable risk, that a manufacturer is trying to put on airports and airlines staff shoulders just to save money in the design board.

Well this whole rejection of the folding tip is pretty much like saying back in the day going from a basic wing with simply ailerons to one that has flaps or spoilers or whatever is bad because what if it fails. Do you look at wings and say flaps are dangerous because there is a chance they might fly off at some point rendering the wing a lot less useful, I think not and if you stick to driving or taking the train. Does a retractable gear add risk, of course it does, more than a folding wingtip does but no one says that putting one is a bad idea. The difference here is if the tip comes off not a whole lot happens. Can a plane with winglets fly if one comes off? Of course, so why couldn’t a 777-9 fly if one or both of its folding raked tips comes off?
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6264
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 12:36 am

To add to this discussion, there are two levels of protection to prevent a crew from accidentally attempting takeoff with the wingtips up.

First, the Autothrottle is inhibited from engaging for takeoff if the wingtips are not in proper position. You push TO/GA and nothing happens. (This inhibit is also done on most Boeing models of the Flaps aren’t in a valid takeoff configuration.)

Second, if you do advance the thrust levers, the crew will get an EICAS Warning “CONFIG WINGTIPS”. The siren won't silence until the thrust levers are retared and N1 drops below a certain level. This is consistent with other takeoff configuration warnings.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Tue May 22, 2018 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3639
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 12:47 am

mjoelnir wrote:
The folding wing tips on the 777-8/9 will only be 3.5 m long each. I would say flaps are bigger and more complicated. Flaps have to move in flight under high loads, the wing tips have only to move on the ground. I do not imagine a lot of trouble in use.


I fully agree. Flaps take much higher loads and have to move in flight. Flap skew and asymmetric flap deployment also can have serious or catastrophic consequences. People don’t seem to bothered by that and trust the engineers are doing their job and that the systems safety assessments and fault trees accurately reflect reality.

767333ER wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
a320fan wrote:
People are overcomplicating this system, it's pretty much just the aerodynamically shaped raked wingtip that folds up. There are no flight controls or fuel systems in this part of the wing, just wiring for wing tip lights and maybe anti-ice ducts.


Maybe? I think you are oversimplifying the system without a clue of what’s in that part of the aircraft and could affect. This a security and operational unacceptable risk, that a manufacturer is trying to put on airports and airlines staff shoulders just to save money in the design board.

Well this whole rejection of the folding tip is pretty much like saying back in the day going from a basic wing with simply ailerons to one that has flaps or spoilers or whatever is bad because what if it fails. Do you look at wings and say flaps are dangerous because there is a chance they might fly off at some point rendering the wing a lot less useful, I think not and if you stick to driving or taking the train. Does a retractable gear add risk, of course it does, more than a folding wingtip does but no one says that putting one is a bad idea. The difference here is if the tip comes off not a whole lot happens. Can a plane with winglets fly if one comes off? Of course, so why couldn’t a 777-9 fly if one or both of its folding raked tips comes off?


Well said. I think people forget that many parts of the wing and stabilizer move. Jack screws, elevator, rudder and aileron power control units are far more complex and critical to safety. I think A320fan is correct and I don’t know where Jayafe is coming from.
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Tue May 22, 2018 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6264
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 12:51 am

Jayafe wrote:
a320fan wrote:
People are overcomplicating this system, it's pretty much just the aerodynamically shaped raked wingtip that folds up. There are no flight controls or fuel systems in this part of the wing, just wiring for wing tip lights and maybe anti-ice ducts.


Maybe? I think you are oversimplifying the system without a clue of what’s in that part of the aircraft and could affect. This a security and operational unacceptable risk, that a manufacturer is trying to put on airports and airlines staff shoulders just to save money in the design board.


With due respect, I would think you don’t have a clue. What do you know about airplane design and certification to make a bold suggestion that Boeing is making an unsafe design to save money?

I’m fact, A320fan is correct and you are incorrect, Sir.

If you are going to make slanderous statement like that, you’d better have your facts straight.
 
AvObserver
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:40 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 2:42 am

Jayafe wrote:
a320fan wrote:
People are overcomplicating this system, it's pretty much just the aerodynamically shaped raked wingtip that folds up. There are no flight controls or fuel systems in this part of the wing, just wiring for wing tip lights and maybe anti-ice ducts.


Maybe? I think you are oversimplifying the system without a clue of what’s in that part of the aircraft and could affect. This a security and operational unacceptable risk, that a manufacturer is trying to put on airports and airlines staff shoulders just to save money in the design board.

Will you stand by that statement once the FAA and JAA certify the 777X after extensive testing and verification of operational reliability? And will you maintain that stand if Airbus develops a similar system for a possible A350 or even A380 growth variant? I'm doubting it but in the meantime, this is a very simple mechanism compared to other flight control components and it stands to reason it will be at least as safe and reliable as they are. Bitter pills are most unbecoming, especially with so little justification.
 
Pbb152
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2000 2:57 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 12:33 pm

Jayafe wrote:
a320fan wrote:
People are overcomplicating this system, it's pretty much just the aerodynamically shaped raked wingtip that folds up. There are no flight controls or fuel systems in this part of the wing, just wiring for wing tip lights and maybe anti-ice ducts.


Maybe? I think you are oversimplifying the system without a clue of what’s in that part of the aircraft and could affect. This a security and operational unacceptable risk, that a manufacturer is trying to put on airports and airlines staff shoulders just to save money in the design board.


So let me get this straight just to clarify for everyone here. You believe that a new innovation like folding wingtips is a security and operational risk? Do you understand that every single innovation in every single new airframe has to be certified by the FAA and EASA before it can be operated in passenger service in those markets? And every single new innovation in aircraft design is so thoroughly tested these days to a degree of such low probability of failure. This is not the 1950’s with square windows on a Comet.

And please enlighten us how a folding wingtip saved Boeing money. It probably cost a hell of a lot more to incorporate that into the design. It was done to ensure the aircraft could still fit in confined gate areas without having to cause additional costs to airports.

Your trolling of anything Boeing is really sad.
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3870
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 1:03 pm

Tedd wrote:
I`m not a fan of folding wingtips for airliners. It certainly won`t do anything for the looks of the B777x at the gate,
& I`m not keen on more complication near the extremity of the wing even though its far less complicated than what`s
closer to the fusilage. I also know Boeing will nail the design & actuation, & that it shouldn`t cause problems 99.9%
of the time, but it`s just something else added that could go wrong. Shame IMHO they`ve had to do it, but it will save
a lot of fuel so that alone is a good enough reason to incorperate it.
Once B777x has left the gate, it will look spectacular :)


I don't understand why you say that the folded tips will spoil the 777X's looks. When folded, the tips will look like winglets. Do you feel that adding winglets spoil the look of an airplane?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17710
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 1:42 pm

AvObserver wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
a320fan wrote:
People are overcomplicating this system, it's pretty much just the aerodynamically shaped raked wingtip that folds up. There are no flight controls or fuel systems in this part of the wing, just wiring for wing tip lights and maybe anti-ice ducts.


Maybe? I think you are oversimplifying the system without a clue of what’s in that part of the aircraft and could affect. This a security and operational unacceptable risk, that a manufacturer is trying to put on airports and airlines staff shoulders just to save money in the design board.

Will you stand by that statement once the FAA and JAA certify the 777X after extensive testing and verification of operational reliability? And will you maintain that stand if Airbus develops a similar system for a possible A350 or even A380 growth variant? I'm doubting it but in the meantime, this is a very simple mechanism compared to other flight control components and it stands to reason it will be at least as safe and reliable as they are. Bitter pills are most unbecoming, especially with so little justification.

The FAA imposed a bit of added testing just because this is the first commercial plane with folding wingtips.

You make a good point, what will people say when more aircraft have folding wingtips? Narrowbody aircraft need more span, but gate space is at a premium. The easy fix is folding wingtips.

We are at the end of an era of cheap airport real estate. I believe most aircraft after the 777X will have this technology. Just as I believe most new engines will have CMC turbine blades after the 777X too. Technology moves on.

To me this is a rehashing of the ETOPS argument. By all means people vote with your money. I just bought a bunch of airline tickets and only after I purchased did I bother to see what aircraft the airline was flying. How could I do that? I bought a set of seat dimensions, not an airframe. I bought on schedule, paying an extra grand for the trip to gain an extra day of play time. I bought on their dog policy (trip is planned with pet).

A vs. B was my last concern. This was Delta. All sorts of aircraft could have flown the route.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 2:13 pm

Jayafe wrote:
This a security and operational unacceptable risk, that a manufacturer is trying to put on airports and airlines staff shoulders just to save money in the design board.

??? How is this saving Boeing money in the design process? With the extra development needs and new FAA certifications required, this is costing Boeing MORE money to develop. They are making this modification to improve operational flow at airports and increase the fuel efficiency of the plane.

Have you ever flown a Boeing 777? Even a laptop simulator would show that there are multiple security measures in place to make sure that the pilots do not takeoff with incorrect wing settings. Even someone who has never flown before could tell something is wrong with the warning siren going off. We have much bigger problems on our hands if a trained 777 pilot does not notice any of the warnings that the wingtips have not been lowered.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 2:47 pm

Acey wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Some Code E gates may not have the necessary "buffer" between them to allow a 777X with extended wingtips and another 65m span frame (777W, A350) next to it without risking a possible wing-to-wing collision during pushback or arrival.

In such situations, the 777W could be parked next to a frame with a shorter span (767 or 787) to allow sufficient clearance.


A 777X with the wing fold mechanism u/s effectively becomes a code F aircraft, and pretending a code F aircraft is a code E aircraft would absolutely be a no-go at my airport (YYC). We have 2 code F gates, so it'd have to park on one of those, no questions asked.



A 777X with the wing fold mechanism u/s effectively becomes a code F aircraft, and pretending a code F aircraft is a code E aircraft would absolutely be a no-go at my airport (YYC). We have 2 code F gates, so it'd have to park on one of those, no questions asked.


If the government certifies it as a Code E aircraft, why would "your" airport treat it as a Code F aircraft?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9378
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 2:55 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Acey wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Some Code E gates may not have the necessary "buffer" between them to allow a 777X with extended wingtips and another 65m span frame (777W, A350) next to it without risking a possible wing-to-wing collision during pushback or arrival.

In such situations, the 777W could be parked next to a frame with a shorter span (767 or 787) to allow sufficient clearance.


A 777X with the wing fold mechanism u/s effectively becomes a code F aircraft, and pretending a code F aircraft is a code E aircraft would absolutely be a no-go at my airport (YYC). We have 2 code F gates, so it'd have to park on one of those, no questions asked.



A 777X with the wing fold mechanism u/s effectively becomes a code F aircraft, and pretending a code F aircraft is a code E aircraft would absolutely be a no-go at my airport (YYC). We have 2 code F gates, so it'd have to park on one of those, no questions asked.


If the government certifies it as a Code E aircraft, why would "your" airport treat it as a Code F aircraft?

He is talking about if the folding mechanism goes tech and the wingtips are locked in the down position. Then the 77X will be a Code F aircraft, and at his airport only allowed to use F gates instead of a code E gate with smaller aircraft next to it.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8685
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 3:05 pm

If the wing tips do not fold up the a/c has to use a Code F gate or where they are not available, go to a hard stand.
I give the benefit of the doubt in that they are talking about what would happen at their airport if the worst happens....
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 3:55 pm

Polot wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Acey wrote:

A 777X with the wing fold mechanism u/s effectively becomes a code F aircraft, and pretending a code F aircraft is a code E aircraft would absolutely be a no-go at my airport (YYC). We have 2 code F gates, so it'd have to park on one of those, no questions asked.



A 777X with the wing fold mechanism u/s effectively becomes a code F aircraft, and pretending a code F aircraft is a code E aircraft would absolutely be a no-go at my airport (YYC). We have 2 code F gates, so it'd have to park on one of those, no questions asked.


If the government certifies it as a Code E aircraft, why would "your" airport treat it as a Code F aircraft?

He is talking about if the folding mechanism goes tech and the wingtips are locked in the down position. Then the 77X will be a Code F aircraft, and at his airport only allowed to use F gates instead of a code E gate with smaller aircraft next to it.


That makes sense, but if there is a wingtip problem I would imagine that either it goes to a parking spot and buses pick up the passengers or it would use a Code F gate (if available). If there are no F gates, it would use a parking spot. This doesn't seem like a very big deal if the wing-tips fail 1 in every X openings where X is probably north 10,000...
 
User avatar
Acey
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 4:53 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
If the government certifies it as a Code E aircraft, why would "your" airport treat it as a Code F aircraft?


...because when the wings are unfolded (and if they were stuck as such) the wingspan exceeds 65 meters, making it code F for the duration of that turnaround.

WorldFlier wrote:
That makes sense, but if there is a wingtip problem I would imagine that either it goes to a parking spot and buses pick up the passengers or it would use a Code F gate (if available). If there are no F gates, it would use a parking spot. This doesn't seem like a very big deal if the wing-tips fail 1 in every X openings where X is probably north 10,000...


Exactly, I don't suspect it's a big deal at all nor will it ever happen enough times for it to be anything resembling a concern. More so I was responding to Stitch's post about >65 m spans being able to park at code E gates, and my uncertainty about how that would apply to my local airport.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3003
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 6:32 pm

What percent of airplanes going technical are related to moving wing parts? Probably greater than zero, but would guess not all that high.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1334
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:31 pm

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 7:23 pm

fmrCapCadet, the percentage must be nonzero. The one time I was on a DC-8, the captain pulled us out of the queue for the runway, ran some tests on a taxiway, then taxied back to the gate and cancelled the flight. He said the flaps would not fully extend, and while that wasn't a big enough problem to stop us taking off from BOS, it would be unacceptable for landing at DEN.
 
Tedd
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:22 am

Re: Folding 777 Wingtips

Tue May 22, 2018 8:46 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Tedd wrote:
I`m not a fan of folding wingtips for airliners. It certainly won`t do anything for the looks of the B777x at the gate,
& I`m not keen on more complication near the extremity of the wing even though its far less complicated than what`s
closer to the fusilage. I also know Boeing will nail the design & actuation, & that it shouldn`t cause problems 99.9%
of the time, but it`s just something else added that could go wrong. Shame IMHO they`ve had to do it, but it will save
a lot of fuel so that alone is a good enough reason to incorperate it.
Once B777x has left the gate, it will look spectacular :)


I don't understand why you say that the folded tips will spoil the 777X's looks. When folded, the tips will look like winglets. Do you feel that adding winglets spoil the look of an airplane?


As a rule I dont`t like winglets, for me those on the A330, B737 particularly spoil the lines of the plane, those on the
A350 & A330Neo are better blended so don`t have such a negative impact. Can you imagine Boeing putting a winglet
on the 787.....it would be an act of vandalism! From impressions I`ve seen of B777x folding wingtips, they will look like
folding wingtips, or the worst kind of winglet. But what do I know, I`m old & miserable & the antithasis of someone looking
out from the gate thinking "hey man those wingtips are really cool" :)

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos