9252fly
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AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:07 am

It would seem unusual for an airline not to exercise options on B787's as in AC case I would imagine that they had favorable pricing. From the article they are being cautious, what do they know that we don't?

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... 7-options/
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:11 am

This was discussed the other day but I couldn’t tell you the name of the thread probably a financially prudent decision on their part.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
ACDC8
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:12 am

Possibly a valid competition on the international market from another Canadian airline?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
anrec80
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:43 am

ACDC8 wrote:
Possibly a valid competition on the international market from another Canadian airline?


There is no other "international" airline in Canada besides AC (USA/Mexico excluded). WestJet just now buys 787 and starts their own international long range services. There is also Air Transat, but those serve a handful of destinations only.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 5:53 am

It that much of a deal, they have 40+ aircraft in the 300 seat category. I think what AC would be more interested in is the MOM. There is a bit of a gap where that kind of an aircraft would fit in.
 
kimimm19
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 6:52 am

I saw a tweet the other day (with I'm no longer able to find so please forgive me) from someone close to AC saying that they are already regretting choosing the 737MAX due to the difficulty in cold temps and the cargo slot sizes... So perhaps we might see remaining MAXs converted into additional 787s if they are indeed unhappy?
 
77H
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 8:38 am

kimimm19 wrote:
I saw a tweet the other day (with I'm no longer able to find so please forgive me) from someone close to AC saying that they are already regretting choosing the 737MAX due to the difficulty in cold temps and the cargo slot sizes... So perhaps we might see remaining MAXs converted into additional 787s if they are indeed unhappy?


I always found it interesting they opted to go for the MAX over the NEO considering their sizeable 320 series fleet. The 737 series cargo doors and floor height are often troublesome for cargo.

77H
 
Waterbomber
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 8:49 am

Surely politics are playing their role too.
After the whole BBD saga, Canada is very pissed at Boeing.

AC probably got a good deal on the MAX.
Airbus was ahead after launching the NEO earlier and Boeing needed sales to catch up.

If I were AC's CEO back then I would have bought 100 x CS300 in exchange for exclusivity on BBD's air travel needs. For the sake of supporting the home team.
Sure, the Max 8 is a bit bigger, but supporting the local industry is also important as a flag carrier. The increased purchasing power is more likely to come back to you in one form or the other.
 
AApilot2b
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 9:28 am

A lot of speculations made here with no clear facts. Apart from the first news article, no one has stated a valid source for their opinion....
 
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keesje
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 9:53 am

Qantas did it too. Just like AC a big A330 operator. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/qantas-holds-line-on-firming-787-options-446113/ Maybe we should launch "In a fresh blow to Boeing 787, Air Canada and Qantas dropped ...." header somewhere. Just joking :wink2: .

It's probably part of bigger price negotiations. It could as well end up in a bigger 787 commitment. Oil prices are rising again and A330NEO's are coming online.

Air Canada (AC, Montréal Trudeau) will retire all remaining eight B767-300(ER)s from its mainline fleet by the end of 2019, President (Passenger Airlines) Benjamin Smith said during a quarterly investor call on April 30, 2018. The Canadian flag carrier has also decided against a new B787 order and will instead refurbish its A330-300s and add new units of the type.

"We will be introducing four more Airbus A330 aircraft into our fleet, to replace capacity from our mainline Boeing B767 fleet which will be retiring in 2019," Smith said.

"Following a thorough fleet analysis, we have decided to invest CAD275 million dollars (USD213.5 million) in our Airbus A330 fleet, eight of which are owned and fully unencumbered and four of which are under lease arrangements with delivery scheduled in 2019," CFO Mike Rousseau added.

According to the carrier, refurbishing its A330s, which are on average 17.7 years old, and adding four more units of the type will offer a lower cost base than converting options for new B787s.

"When we look at fleet decisions, we assess whether we should exercise B787 options versus spending some money to refurbish the A330 fleet and a much better business case is to refurbish the A330 fleet," CEO Calin Rovinescu said.

All A330s will eventually be based out of Montréal Trudeau, allowing for shorter transatlantic flights. Currently, units of the type are also based out of Toronto Pearson and Vancouver Int'l, the ch-aviation capacity module shows.

Following the investment in the cabins, Air Canada will offer a uniform cabin on all widebody jets, including the A330s, the B777s, and the B787s. The cabin reconfiguration for the A330s will commence in late 2019 and is expected to be completed in 2020.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/66809-air-canada-to-retire-b767s-in-2019-add-four-a330s
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
bigjku
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 10:04 am

Waterbomber wrote:
Surely politics are playing their role too.
After the whole BBD saga, Canada is very pissed at Boeing.

AC probably got a good deal on the MAX.
Airbus was ahead after launching the NEO earlier and Boeing needed sales to catch up.

If I were AC's CEO back then I would have bought 100 x CS300 in exchange for exclusivity on BBD's air travel needs. For the sake of supporting the home team.
Sure, the Max 8 is a bit bigger, but supporting the local industry is also important as a flag carrier. The increased purchasing power is more likely to come back to you in one form or the other.


So you would have been fired when for this decision seeing as BBD can’t deliver meanginful numbers of planes and thus you would effectively be a major airline without new generation narrows on the way?

The managers at AC aren’t stupid. Pinning your whole future on BBD would be borderline insane.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 10:45 am

I think as interesting as AC will not firm their options on the 787 is, that they keep their 8 A330-300 and will add 4 more. So AC is not cutting future capacity, but rather CAPEX.
 
Bricktop
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 11:04 am

Jayafe wrote:
Wise move. The sooner they get rid of 787s and MAXs, as stated by many above, the better.

Dump brand new planes? As if that's going to happen. :lol: :roll:
 
wave46
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 11:07 am

In the last 10 years, AC has almost completely replaced their fleet. The 777, 787 and 737 and future CS300 - a significant investment. I'd imagine that they're also running out of obvious destinations to add to their network that require something as expensive or capable as the 787.

I'd expect incremental top-up orders in the next few years (see the addition of 4 A330), depending on market conditions. They could be also hedging against the headwinds that are appearing in the industry - fuel prices have climbed, there will be labor contract renewals in this time span and we've had a decent amount of time since the last recession. In addition Westjet is coming in with 787s, so flooding the market with cheap seats might be a pyrrhic victory.

I'd say that this looks prudent on AC's part.
 
travelhound
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 11:08 am

keesje wrote:
Qantas did it too. Just like AC a big A330 operator. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/qantas-holds-line-on-firming-787-options-446113/ Maybe we should launch "In a fresh blow to Boeing 787, Air Canada and Qantas dropped ...." header somewhere. Just joking :wink2: .

It's probably part of bigger price negotiations. It could as well end up in a bigger 787 commitment. Oil prices are rising again and A330NEO's are coming online.

Air Canada (AC, Montréal Trudeau) will retire all remaining eight B767-300(ER)s from its mainline fleet by the end of 2019, President (Passenger Airlines) Benjamin Smith said during a quarterly investor call on April 30, 2018. The Canadian flag carrier has also decided against a new B787 order and will instead refurbish its A330-300s and add new units of the type.

"We will be introducing four more Airbus A330 aircraft into our fleet, to replace capacity from our mainline Boeing B767 fleet which will be retiring in 2019," Smith said.

"Following a thorough fleet analysis, we have decided to invest CAD275 million dollars (USD213.5 million) in our Airbus A330 fleet, eight of which are owned and fully unencumbered and four of which are under lease arrangements with delivery scheduled in 2019," CFO Mike Rousseau added.

According to the carrier, refurbishing its A330s, which are on average 17.7 years old, and adding four more units of the type will offer a lower cost base than converting options for new B787s.

"When we look at fleet decisions, we assess whether we should exercise B787 options versus spending some money to refurbish the A330 fleet and a much better business case is to refurbish the A330 fleet," CEO Calin Rovinescu said.

All A330s will eventually be based out of Montréal Trudeau, allowing for shorter transatlantic flights. Currently, units of the type are also based out of Toronto Pearson and Vancouver Int'l, the ch-aviation capacity module shows.

Following the investment in the cabins, Air Canada will offer a uniform cabin on all widebody jets, including the A330s, the B777s, and the B787s. The cabin reconfiguration for the A330s will commence in late 2019 and is expected to be completed in 2020.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/66809-air-canada-to-retire-b767s-in-2019-add-four-a330s


To put some perspective to this article:

If we go back 5-6 years when AJ grounded the QANTAS fleet the narrative revolved around costs and sustainability. This narrative was directed to the employees / shareholders' rather than the OEM's and passengers.

This narrative still remains firm. When Alan Joyce sais he is willing to let 787 options expire, he is sending a strong message to his employees and shareholders that performance is king. I'd suggest the message has more value than a 787 option.

This thinking is not new. Scott Goodyear successfully turned around the Australian miner BHP with a similar rational. Put simply, the divisions of the company that received CAPEX funding were those who made the ROI numbers stack up best.

Scott Goodyear turned around BHP in a similar manner to how AJ turned around QANTAS.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 11:11 am

While the 787 is fantastic for them, it isn't the perfect solution. It's cost of acquisition in today's market makes things like the A333 much more competitive, and significantly lower risk. They will eventually have to replace the A330s and likely continue to add a few widebodies per year for growth, but short term, this favours more used widebodies that can easily be parked if things head sideways. Also consider that over the past 5 years, they have spent a ton of money refitting cabins, modifying terminal ammenaties, designing and introducing a new livery and have taken constant delivery of factory new planes. Can't fault them for wanting to scale back the financial burden and focus on optimization and extracting the max out of what they have. As long as they don't forget that the market is growing around them, and they can't let it get away from them.

As for the max, whoever said they don't like them is lying. From the horse's mouth, they love them. The CASM is brilliant and passenger response has been fantastic. Fuel burn numbers are staggeringly low.
 
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MrBren
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 11:20 am

A330 NEO is far from being dead as claimed on this forum.
 
N766UA
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 11:46 am

They’re trying to sleep with their options?
 
1989worstyear
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 11:48 am

Jayafe wrote:
Wise move. The sooner they get rid of 787s and MAXs, as stated by many above, the better.


Maybe they can keep their almost 20 year old A333's until 2060 while they're at it.

The damm things are very much a product of 1994 - screw 100 USD oil. :banghead:
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
Thomaas
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 11:50 am

whywhyzee wrote:
passenger response has been fantastic.


LOL that's definitely not true. Worst plane in ACs fleet comfort wise.
 
imthedreamliner
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 12:00 pm

Thomaas wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
passenger response has been fantastic.


LOL that's definitely not true. Worst plane in ACs fleet comfort wise.

How on earth is a very new aircraft worst in an airlines fleet ? Very biased opinion.

It could be that it is not as comfortable as promised but to call it worst in a fleet ... really biased
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 12:07 pm

imthedreamliner wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
passenger response has been fantastic.


LOL that's definitely not true. Worst plane in ACs fleet comfort wise.

How on earth is a very new aircraft worst in an airlines fleet ? Very biased opinion.

It could be that it is not as comfortable as promised but to call it worst in a fleet ... really biased


I'm assuming he means the Y class seat, because it really is quite narrow and uncomfortable.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 12:10 pm

Waterbomber wrote:

If I were AC's CEO back then I would have bought 100 x CS300 in exchange for exclusivity on BBD's air travel needs. For the sake of supporting the home team.


If only AC management cared about Canadian jobs...they could care less, or atleast that's the imprrssion they give...
They only ever seem to care for Canadian jobs only when they feel threatened by foreign competiton...
 
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Revelation
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 12:12 pm

keesje wrote:
Qantas did it too. Just like AC a big A330 operator. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/qantas-holds-line-on-firming-787-options-446113/ Maybe we should launch "In a fresh blow to Boeing 787, Air Canada and Qantas dropped ...." header somewhere. Just joking :wink2: .

It's probably part of bigger price negotiations. It could as well end up in a bigger 787 commitment. Oil prices are rising again and A330NEO's are coming online.

Yet AC and QF both haven't committed to A330neo, and here's a case where AC could have but found that leasing A330ceos offered better value.

Once again A330neo finds itself as bridesmaid not bride...
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rbavfan
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 12:19 pm

anrec80 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Possibly a valid competition on the international market from another Canadian airline?


There is no other "international" airline in Canada besides AC (USA/Mexico excluded). WestJet just now buys 787 and starts their own international long range services. There is also Air Transat, but those serve a handful of destinations only.



And...they both fly international routes. Thus they ARE international Airlines.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 12:24 pm

Where will the four A330's come from? I suppose they will be second hand.
 
tphuang
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 12:26 pm

bigjku wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Surely politics are playing their role too.
After the whole BBD saga, Canada is very pissed at Boeing.

AC probably got a good deal on the MAX.
Airbus was ahead after launching the NEO earlier and Boeing needed sales to catch up.

If I were AC's CEO back then I would have bought 100 x CS300 in exchange for exclusivity on BBD's air travel needs. For the sake of supporting the home team.
Sure, the Max 8 is a bit bigger, but supporting the local industry is also important as a flag carrier. The increased purchasing power is more likely to come back to you in one form or the other.


So you would have been fired when for this decision seeing as BBD can’t deliver meanginful numbers of planes and thus you would effectively be a major airline without new generation narrows on the way?

The managers at AC aren’t stupid. Pinning your whole future on BBD would be borderline insane.


And now that c series is going to be an airbus program, I am sure the good folks at ac will be a lot more comfortable about their order.

I am sure customers would prefer the wide seats on c series rather than the squeeze on 737.
 
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zkojq
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 12:52 pm

The message to Boeing is clear; "We want HA level pricing if we are to sign for more 787s. Otherwise we will choose lower CAPEX options." Same as i said when they announced the extra A330ceos.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Planeyguy
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 12:54 pm

If people are saying how bad the 787s and 737max are why did AC even bought it in the first place?
 
wave46
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 1:09 pm

I'm sure that AC management is quite happy with the financial performance of the 737MAX, as the purchase price from Boeing must have been quite generous to cover the costs of switching to a new fleet. Also, as an AC insider posted on here, the fuel economy figures of the new plane are quite remarkable.

The comfort level of an aircraft is minimally tied to the aircraft itself - I'd take a Westjet 737 over a Rouge A319, for instance.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 1:10 pm

keesje wrote:
Qantas did it too. Just like AC a big A330 operator. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/qantas-holds-line-on-firming-787-options-446113/ Maybe we should launch "In a fresh blow to Boeing 787, Air Canada and Qantas dropped ...." header somewhere. Just joking :wink2: .

It's probably part of bigger price negotiations. It could as well end up in a bigger 787 commitment. Oil prices are rising again and A330NEO's are coming online.

Air Canada (AC, Montréal Trudeau) will retire all remaining eight B767-300(ER)s from its mainline fleet by the end of 2019, President (Passenger Airlines) Benjamin Smith said during a quarterly investor call on April 30, 2018. The Canadian flag carrier has also decided against a new B787 order and will instead refurbish its A330-300s and add new units of the type.

"We will be introducing four more Airbus A330 aircraft into our fleet, to replace capacity from our mainline Boeing B767 fleet which will be retiring in 2019," Smith said.

"Following a thorough fleet analysis, we have decided to invest CAD275 million dollars (USD213.5 million) in our Airbus A330 fleet, eight of which are owned and fully unencumbered and four of which are under lease arrangements with delivery scheduled in 2019," CFO Mike Rousseau added.

According to the carrier, refurbishing its A330s, which are on average 17.7 years old, and adding four more units of the type will offer a lower cost base than converting options for new B787s.

"When we look at fleet decisions, we assess whether we should exercise B787 options versus spending some money to refurbish the A330 fleet and a much better business case is to refurbish the A330 fleet," CEO Calin Rovinescu said.

All A330s will eventually be based out of Montréal Trudeau, allowing for shorter transatlantic flights. Currently, units of the type are also based out of Toronto Pearson and Vancouver Int'l, the ch-aviation capacity module shows.

Following the investment in the cabins, Air Canada will offer a uniform cabin on all widebody jets, including the A330s, the B777s, and the B787s. The cabin reconfiguration for the A330s will commence in late 2019 and is expected to be completed in 2020.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/66809-air-canada-to-retire-b767s-in-2019-add-four-a330s


I don’t see this as part of a bigger price negotiation. How many more widebodies does Air Canada need? Are we really anticipating them ordering more planes?

There is risk of a recession in the US economy. That would affect Air Canada since Canada and the United States’ economies are related. Air Canada also uses the US market as feed for its international flights. Low cost used A330s helps get Air Canada capacity now, but if there is a recession and demand falls, they can dispose of those planes without huge liabilities. It makes sense to have that surge capacity and fleet flexibility that used A330s offer. It also saves on capital. Air Canada has been spending significantly on new planes in the last 5 years and has many more narrowbodies in order.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 1:41 pm

bigjku wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Surely politics are playing their role too.
After the whole BBD saga, Canada is very pissed at Boeing.

AC probably got a good deal on the MAX.
Airbus was ahead after launching the NEO earlier and Boeing needed sales to catch up.

If I were AC's CEO back then I would have bought 100 x CS300 in exchange for exclusivity on BBD's air travel needs. For the sake of supporting the home team.
Sure, the Max 8 is a bit bigger, but supporting the local industry is also important as a flag carrier. The increased purchasing power is more likely to come back to you in one form or the other.


So you would have been fired when for this decision seeing as BBD can’t deliver meanginful numbers of planes and thus you would effectively be a major airline without new generation narrows on the way?

The managers at AC aren’t stupid. Pinning your whole future on BBD would be borderline insane.


The Cseries should be ramping up nicely very soon.
They ll probably sign the CSALP agreement at Farnborough and relaunch as an Airbus product.

It would have been the deal of the century and AC could have extended the A320 family leases with delay compensations.

However efficient the Max is, the Cseries beats it at everything except shear passenger capacity.
 
YellowJ
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 1:55 pm

keesje wrote:
Qantas did it too. Just like AC a big A330 operator. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/qantas-holds-line-on-firming-787-options-446113/ Maybe we should launch "In a fresh blow to Boeing 787, Air Canada and Qantas dropped ...." header somewhere. Just joking :wink2: .

It's probably part of bigger price negotiations. It could as well end up in a bigger 787 commitment. Oil prices are rising again and A330NEO's are coming online.

Air Canada (AC, Montréal Trudeau) will retire all remaining eight B767-300(ER)s from its mainline fleet by the end of 2019, President (Passenger Airlines) Benjamin Smith said during a quarterly investor call on April 30, 2018. The Canadian flag carrier has also decided against a new B787 order and will instead refurbish its A330-300s and add new units of the type.

"We will be introducing four more Airbus A330 aircraft into our fleet, to replace capacity from our mainline Boeing B767 fleet which will be retiring in 2019," Smith said.

"Following a thorough fleet analysis, we have decided to invest CAD275 million dollars (USD213.5 million) in our Airbus A330 fleet, eight of which are owned and fully unencumbered and four of which are under lease arrangements with delivery scheduled in 2019," CFO Mike Rousseau added.

According to the carrier, refurbishing its A330s, which are on average 17.7 years old, and adding four more units of the type will offer a lower cost base than converting options for new B787s.

"When we look at fleet decisions, we assess whether we should exercise B787 options versus spending some money to refurbish the A330 fleet and a much better business case is to refurbish the A330 fleet," CEO Calin Rovinescu said.

All A330s will eventually be based out of Montréal Trudeau, allowing for shorter transatlantic flights. Currently, units of the type are also based out of Toronto Pearson and Vancouver Int'l, the ch-aviation capacity module shows.

Following the investment in the cabins, Air Canada will offer a uniform cabin on all widebody jets, including the A330s, the B777s, and the B787s. The cabin reconfiguration for the A330s will commence in late 2019 and is expected to be completed in 2020.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/66809-air-canada-to-retire-b767s-in-2019-add-four-a330s


All I see is a airline conserving money. Eight paid off planes + Four cheap leases are a hell of a lot cheaper than 12 brand new 787's.

The fact that they are basing all 12 in Montreal for Europe routes which does not need the 787 range and it's a no brainer.
 
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RobK
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 2:19 pm

Surely the reason is bulk loading? Isn't that the default explanation for every decision AC makes? :duck:
 
NZ321
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 2:28 pm

wave46 wrote:
In the last 10 years, AC has almost completely replaced their fleet. The 777, 787 and 737 and future CS300 - a significant investment. I'd imagine that they're also running out of obvious destinations to add to their network that require something as expensive or capable as the 787.

I'd expect incremental top-up orders in the next few years (see the addition of 4 A330), depending on market conditions. They could be also hedging against the headwinds that are appearing in the industry - fuel prices have climbed, there will be labor contract renewals in this time span and we've had a decent amount of time since the last recession. In addition Westjet is coming in with 787s, so flooding the market with cheap seats might be a pyrrhic victory.

I'd say that this looks prudent on AC's part.


Sorry to say it folks. But a pity AC has such a poor reputation when it comes to service and follow-through. Like really, not in the main game. Why is this? I wish it were different. Since my two awful medium-long haul experiences on AC - one economy and one business - As a current Elite Gold flyer I don't go near them because I haven't heard anything to suggest that the culture has changed. And comments of mates who have taken the plunge - to their regret - only reinforce my position. So it's all very well to keep your fleet up-to-date (you can't say this if you include Rouge) but you also need to attend to the essentials. AC haven't IMHO and that's sad. It could be a different story and that would have made life a lot tougher for a wannabe entrant into long haul flying.
Plane mad!
 
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keesje
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 2:41 pm

Planeyguy wrote:
If people are saying how bad the 787s and 737max are why did AC even bought it in the first place?


Not exactly clear to me. But AC was just out of Bankruptcy when they ordered a large 787/777 fleet. They had a brand new Airbus WB fleet in service / on order.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 2:42 pm

keesje wrote:
Qantas did it too. Just like AC a big A330 operator. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/qantas-holds-line-on-firming-787-options-446113/ Maybe we should launch "In a fresh blow to Boeing 787, Air Canada and Qantas dropped ...." header somewhere. Just joking :wink2: .


QF did indeed let one 787-9 option expire, but they then subsequently converted six options to firm orders so we'd need a follow-up "In a fresh win to the Boeing 787" article. :wink2:
 
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Polot
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 2:50 pm

keesje wrote:
Planeyguy wrote:
If people are saying how bad the 787s and 737max are why did AC even bought it in the first place?


Not exactly clear to me. But AC was just out of Bankruptcy when they ordered a large 787/777 fleet. They had a brand new Airbus WB fleet in service / on order.

IIRC at the time of the 787/777 order AC only had 3 A346s on order. They decided on the 787/777 for their future expansion over more A340s, and were hardly the only airline to make that decision.
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1931
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Wise move. The sooner they get rid of 787s and MAXs, as stated by many above, the better.


Why? What's wrong with AC's 787s??
 
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Polot
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 3:40 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
Wise move. The sooner they get rid of 787s and MAXs, as stated by many above, the better.


Why? What's wrong with AC's 787s??

Jayafe’s issue is that is a Boeing 787, not Airbus 787.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Air Canada originally ordered 14 787s and 18 777s in 2005. They previously exercised options to grow their 787 and 777 fleets beyond the initial order.
 
musman9853
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:04 pm

How much cheaper would a used a330+cabin overhaul be compared to a fresh 787? I'd imagine the lower fuel costs would outweigh the extra cost over the life of the frame...
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:05 pm

I for one am happy to see the A330s stick around and get a makeover.
@DadCelo
 
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CFM565A1
Posts: 358
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:13 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
While the 787 is fantastic for them, it isn't the perfect solution. It's cost of acquisition in today's market makes things like the A333 much more competitive, and significantly lower risk. They will eventually have to replace the A330s and likely continue to add a few widebodies per year for growth, but short term, this favours more used widebodies that can easily be parked if things head sideways. Also consider that over the past 5 years, they have spent a ton of money refitting cabins, modifying terminal ammenaties, designing and introducing a new livery and have taken constant delivery of factory new planes. Can't fault them for wanting to scale back the financial burden and focus on optimization and extracting the max out of what they have. As long as they don't forget that the market is growing around them, and they can't let it get away from them.

As for the max, whoever said they don't like them is lying. From the horse's mouth, they love them. The CASM is brilliant and passenger response has been fantastic. Fuel burn numbers are staggeringly low.


Employees not so much. A lot of pilots are bidding A330 to avoid flying the thing. Flight attendants are the main group I’ve heard complaining about them. Really it’s corporate who thinks they’re good.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:14 pm

musman9853 wrote:
How much cheaper would a used a330+cabin overhaul be compared to a fresh 787? I'd imagine the lower fuel costs would outweigh the extra cost over the life of the frame...


Depends, the A330from YYZ-YUL to Europe is actually more cost efficient than any 787.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
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CFM565A1
Posts: 358
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:18 pm

Planeyguy wrote:
If people are saying how bad the 787s and 737max are why did AC even bought it in the first place?


$$$$ that’s why not because of passenger comfort. The max was offered at a ridiculously low price for a number of reasons including Boeing buying back some 190.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 659
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:24 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
Wise move. The sooner they get rid of 787s and MAXs, as stated by many above, the better.

Why? What's wrong with AC's 787s??

Economy class comfort for passengers, I suppose. As many seats as possible and (for the MAX) extremely tiny lavatories. I am not sure about Air Canada but I have read that on American Airlines you can only wash one hand at a time on the MAX.

Recently I spoke with 747 cabin crew of another airline that also operates the 787. They said the 787 is the worst in passenger comfort and crew comfort in their fleet. Even the crew rest on the brand new 787 is less comfortable than on the thirty year old 747.

And the dimmable windows crew override needs to go.

Last, I wil always prefer the 2-4-2 seating on the Airbus A330 over the 3-3-3 seating on the 787.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8361
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Qantas did it too. Just like AC a big A330 operator. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/qantas-holds-line-on-firming-787-options-446113/ Maybe we should launch "In a fresh blow to Boeing 787, Air Canada and Qantas dropped ...." header somewhere. Just joking :wink2: .

It's probably part of bigger price negotiations. It could as well end up in a bigger 787 commitment. Oil prices are rising again and A330NEO's are coming online.

Yet AC and QF both haven't committed to A330neo, and here's a case where AC could have but found that leasing A330ceos offered better value.

Once again A330neo finds itself as bridesmaid not bride...


I think that there come in the A330neos ordered by the Leasing companies. Airlines especially smaller ones having a few A330 in their fleet, will be able to lease A330neo without having to order frames many years in advance.

Their are about 1350 A330ceo in use in the world at 124 airlines. Their have been quite a few, rather new, used frames been looking for new operators in the last year. I would assume that we will see fewer used A330 on the market in the near future, the older ones going for P2F and not every year an Air Berlin will go bust and provide 20, some of them quite young, frames to the market. Emirates has no A330 left, as quite a few other airlines doing the 12 year and retire cycle.

Some smaller A330ceo operators will start adding A330neo this or next year, it will not make a big problem to run small A330ceo and neo fleets side by side, especially if you outsource the MRO anyway.
 
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CFM565A1
Posts: 358
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:31 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
Wise move. The sooner they get rid of 787s and MAs, as stated by many above, the better.

Why? What's wrong with AC's 787s??

Economy class comfort for passengers, I suppose. As many seats as possible and (for the MAX) extremely tiny lavatories. I am not sure about Air Canada but I have read that on American Airlines you can only wash one hand at a time on the MAX.

Recently I spoke with 747 cabin crew of another airline that also operates the 787. They said the 787 is the worst in passenger comfort and crew comfort in their fleet. Even the crew rest on the brand new 787 is less comfortable than on the thirty year old 747.

And the dimmable windows crew override needs to go.

Last, I wil always prefer the 2-4-2 seating on the Airbus A330 over the 3-3-3 seating on the 787.


Same thing with some AC colleagues I chatted with, the 777 crew rest is great and the 787 not so much.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1073
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Qantas did it too. Just like AC a big A330 operator. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/qantas-holds-line-on-firming-787-options-446113/ Maybe we should launch "In a fresh blow to Boeing 787, Air Canada and Qantas dropped ...." header somewhere. Just joking :wink2: .

It's probably part of bigger price negotiations. It could as well end up in a bigger 787 commitment. Oil prices are rising again and A330NEO's are coming online.

Yet AC and QF both haven't committed to A330neo, and here's a case where AC could have but found that leasing A330ceos offered better value.

Once again A330neo finds itself as bridesmaid not bride...


It doesn’t mean AC will never order the A330neo in the future, and you can’t really rule it out for as long as they operate ceo’s. Again, people are forgetting that there are many A330ceo operators that aren’t at the stage where they need to be replaced and there are potential orders out there to play for.

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