aaexecplat
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:45 pm

I would not be surprised if AC received a polite request from the Trudeau administration to sever any easily severable ties with Boeing as retaliation over the Trump tariff posturing and C-Series spat.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 4:58 pm

I spoke to someone on the management team responsible for evaluating the 787 options at AC, and what I was told (of course there is so much info that I am not privy to, just as I have info from my carrier that I can't disclose) was that they looked at the options, and looked at the 787-10, but found it wasn't flexible enough for their needs, didn't have the required performance to justify adding it at that time, which was recently. Moving forward, they are going to have to replace their A333s, accounting for growth, and finally, replace their 777s. This is a 10 year process beginning in probably 8 years. In short, between ~2026 and 2036, they are going to need roughly 40-50 large widebodies. At least by my calculations, one type should be able to fill this entire role - A350-1000. They still have the freedom to wait and decide on that however, an order likely wouldn't be placed until maybe 2024 at best.

The large part of the next decade for them is going to be narrow body replacement and growth, as well as gradual long haul additions. The A333, given its popularity in the used market, is a good option for them to evaluate growth and add frames as required. Lead times on 787s are a little long to be flexible to suit their needs perfectly.
 
drgmobile
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 5:04 pm

The headline "make a pass" suggests the airline made a romantic overture to one of its aircraft.
 
wave46
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 5:14 pm

aaexecplat wrote:
I would not be surprised if AC received a polite request from the Trudeau administration to sever any easily severable ties with Boeing as retaliation over the Trump tariff posturing and C-Series spat.


It may have, but I doubt AC would be foolish enough to actually do anything to poison that relationship, especially given that the bulk of its fleet will be Boeing.

Especially since the spat ended so abruptly with the decision of the USITC and Boeing did not appeal.

Politics changes day-to-day. The airliner-airline business is a long-term game, far outlasting election cycles.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 5:34 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
I spoke to someone on the management team responsible for evaluating the 787 options at AC, and what I was told (of course there is so much info that I am not privy to, just as I have info from my carrier that I can't disclose) was that they looked at the options, and looked at the 787-10, but found it wasn't flexible enough for their needs, didn't have the required performance to justify adding it at that time, which was recently. Moving forward, they are going to have to replace their A333s, accounting for growth, and finally, replace their 777s. This is a 10 year process beginning in probably 8 years. In short, between ~2026 and 2036, they are going to need roughly 40-50 large widebodies. At least by my calculations, one type should be able to fill this entire role - A350-1000. They still have the freedom to wait and decide on that however, an order likely wouldn't be placed until maybe 2024 at best.


A competition between the 350-1000 and 777-9 for the 777 replacement in about the timeline you mentioned seems plausible. As for the 333s, it's an interesting question. AC really seems to like having a "High-Low" mix in both its narrowbody and widebody fleets. Paid-off or leased used aircraft are ideal for adjusting fleet size up or down as demand fluctuates. They obviously feel the CASM numbers work out in their favour on some routes where the high performance of MAX or 787 aircraft isn't required and low acquisition cost cancels out higher fuel burn.

The question then becomes what "Low" aircraft will be available in large numbers on the used market as the 330s (and Rouge 767s) reach their expiry dates. We might see AC adding a number of used 777s at that time, though it's quite a big upgauge. I don't imagine too many used 787s will be coming on the market yet.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 5:34 pm

Anything can happen, but I don't see how buying used A330ceo's connects to an order for new A330neo's? The 787-8/-9 cover that role already (if looking at new builds). I'd think the A350 makes much more sense long term as it provides the 777 replacement and is likely a more flexible option than the 777X.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
wave46
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 5:42 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Anything can happen, but I don't see how buying used A330ceo's connects to an order for new A330neo's? The 787-8/-9 cover that role already (if looking at new builds). I'd think the A350 makes much more sense long term as it provides the 777 replacement and is likely a more flexible option than the 777X.


AC's 777s are pretty new - mostly <10 years old. They typically fly aircraft they're happy with until the end of their lifespans (see: A320, 767-300ER).

The next large purchases are probably 10-15 years down the road for the replacement of mainline A321 & A330s and Rouge A319s & 767s.

I'd imagine AC will see what's on offer then - the market could be quite different, both used and new.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 6:07 pm

wave46 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Anything can happen, but I don't see how buying used A330ceo's connects to an order for new A330neo's? The 787-8/-9 cover that role already (if looking at new builds). I'd think the A350 makes much more sense long term as it provides the 777 replacement and is likely a more flexible option than the 777X.


AC's 777s are pretty new - mostly <10 years old. They typically fly aircraft they're happy with until the end of their lifespans (see: A320, 767-300ER).

The next large purchases are probably 10-15 years down the road for the replacement of mainline A321 & A330s and Rouge A319s & 767s.

I'd imagine AC will see what's on offer then - the market could be quite different, both used and new.


Exactly. "Long term". I think a prior post mentioned the 2026-2036 timeframe.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
codyul
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 6:10 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
I spoke to someone on the management team responsible for evaluating the 787 options at AC, and what I was told (of course there is so much info that I am not privy to, just as I have info from my carrier that I can't disclose) was that they looked at the options, and looked at the 787-10, but found it wasn't flexible enough for their needs, didn't have the required performance to justify adding it at that time, which was recently. Moving forward, they are going to have to replace their A333s, accounting for growth, and finally, replace their 777s. This is a 10 year process beginning in probably 8 years. In short, between ~2026 and 2036, they are going to need roughly 40-50 large widebodies. At least by my calculations, one type should be able to fill this entire role - A350-1000. They still have the freedom to wait and decide on that however, an order likely wouldn't be placed until maybe 2024 at best.

The large part of the next decade for them is going to be narrow body replacement and growth, as well as gradual long haul additions. The A333, given its popularity in the used market, is a good option for them to evaluate growth and add frames as required. Lead times on 787s are a little long to be flexible to suit their needs perfectly.


Great insight. I'd love to hear everything you hear. These are the pieces of info I really like to know about.
YUL PNC :weightlifter:
 
wave46
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 6:16 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
wave46 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Anything can happen, but I don't see how buying used A330ceo's connects to an order for new A330neo's? The 787-8/-9 cover that role already (if looking at new builds). I'd think the A350 makes much more sense long term as it provides the 777 replacement and is likely a more flexible option than the 777X.


AC's 777s are pretty new - mostly <10 years old. They typically fly aircraft they're happy with until the end of their lifespans (see: A320, 767-300ER).

The next large purchases are probably 10-15 years down the road for the replacement of mainline A321 & A330s and Rouge A319s & 767s.

I'd imagine AC will see what's on offer then - the market could be quite different, both used and new.


Exactly. "Long term". I think a prior post mentioned the 2026-2036 timeframe.


Looking purely the A350's configuration, I would agree with you.

However, what I'm trying to say is that Airbus or Boeing might be in a different financial position and willing to make a deal in the future. Look at how AC picked up their new 737MAX, while the A320neo would have been the easiest choice strictly from a familiarity point of view.

A sufficiently good offer could make all the difference.
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 6:30 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Wise move. The sooner they get rid of 787s and MAXs, as stated by many above, the better.


If you’re going to constantly post negative comments, at least throw some backup in it.

Again, this isn’t Facebook with snarky comments.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 7:24 pm

anrec80 wrote:
There is no other "international" airline in Canada besides AC (USA/Mexico excluded). WestJet just now buys 787 and starts their own international long range services. There is also Air Transat, but those serve a handful of destinations only.

So in essence: there is no other international airline in Canada.... besides the two you just mentioned. :lol:


Jayafe wrote:
Wise move. The sooner they get rid of 787s and MAXs, as stated by many above, the better.

Um, k....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
HI442ct
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 7:25 pm

BobbyPSP wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
Wise move. The sooner they get rid of 787s and MAXs, as stated by many above, the better.


If you’re going to constantly post negative comments, at least throw some backup in it.

Again, this isn’t Facebook with snarky comments.




He doesn't have any facts, it's just his biased opinion, some people can't differentiate between them
Worked with
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rheinwaldner
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 7:45 pm

wave46 wrote:
AC's 777s are pretty new - mostly <10 years old. They typically fly aircraft they're happy with until the end of their lifespans (see: A320, 767-300ER).

Do you remember the aircraft AC replaced with the 777s? Those were not old.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
ac7e7
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 7:51 pm

Not exercising the options and going with the A330 makes perfect sense, and I believe it is all about flexibility.

AC can park these aircraft in a moments notice if demand falls. Look at the A320s. Though 11 are slated to leave the fleet in 2019, I believe the A320 will remain for some time as it gives the airline an inexpensive way to add capacity. They will not be taking more 737MAX aircraft above what is already ordered. One A320 has already been repainted in the new livery. They can always park the aircraft as needed.

Air Canada will be investing $275M on interior updates of 12 aircraft vs acquisition of new aircraft. These planes can fly for a few years, and if they need to cut capacity, they can be parked. Not as expensive as parking a newly-delivered 787.
This also gives the airline time to improve cash flow and prepare for the next round of aircraft acquisitions - MOM.
I doubt very much the A330neo is being considered.
 
psimpson
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 9:21 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
Where will the four A330's come from? I suppose they will be second hand.

Egyptair 4 A333s will exit their fleet during 2019, so it might be those aircrafts Air Canada get?
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 9:25 pm

psimpson wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Where will the four A330's come from? I suppose they will be second hand.

Egyptair 4 A333s will exit their fleet during 2019, so it might be those aircrafts Air Canada get?


They are coming in January from TAP.
 
mham001
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 9:35 pm

Sounds like good value to me, not a slight to Boeing or the 787. Good for AC, a wise business decision.

How long can they expect these upgraded frames to last?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 9:47 pm

mham001 wrote:
Sounds like good value to me, not a slight to Boeing or the 787. Good for AC, a wise business decision.

How long can they expect these upgraded frames to last?


I think there's a lot of wisdom to mixing new and used frames in a fleet. Whatever works is fine, but a mix does offer a blend of predictability and flexibility.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
1900Driver
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Tue May 22, 2018 9:51 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
While the 787 is fantastic for them, it isn't the perfect solution. It's cost of acquisition in today's market makes things like the A333 much more competitive, and significantly lower risk. They will eventually have to replace the A330s and likely continue to add a few widebodies per year for growth, but short term, this favours more used widebodies that can easily be parked if things head sideways. Also consider that over the past 5 years, they have spent a ton of money refitting cabins, modifying terminal ammenaties, designing and introducing a new livery and have taken constant delivery of factory new planes. Can't fault them for wanting to scale back the financial burden and focus on optimization and extracting the max out of what they have. As long as they don't forget that the market is growing around them, and they can't let it get away from them.

As for the max, whoever said they don't like them is lying. From the horse's mouth, they love them. The CASM is brilliant and passenger response has been fantastic. Fuel burn numbers are staggeringly low.


Employees not so much. A lot of pilots are bidding A330 to avoid flying the thing.


That’s a completely false statement. Not true whatsoever. 330 blocks are not as productive as 787, since they only fly to Europe. Most pilots like flying 787 (except for the ex airbus guys/gals).
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 12:09 am

1900Driver wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
While the 787 is fantastic for them, it isn't the perfect solution. It's cost of acquisition in today's market makes things like the A333 much more competitive, and significantly lower risk. They will eventually have to replace the A330s and likely continue to add a few widebodies per year for growth, but short term, this favours more used widebodies that can easily be parked if things head sideways. Also consider that over the past 5 years, they have spent a ton of money refitting cabins, modifying terminal ammenaties, designing and introducing a new livery and have taken constant delivery of factory new planes. Can't fault them for wanting to scale back the financial burden and focus on optimization and extracting the max out of what they have. As long as they don't forget that the market is growing around them, and they can't let it get away from them.

As for the max, whoever said they don't like them is lying. From the horse's mouth, they love them. The CASM is brilliant and passenger response has been fantastic. Fuel burn numbers are staggeringly low.


Employees not so much. A lot of pilots are bidding A330 to avoid flying the thing.


That’s a completely false statement. Not true whatsoever. 330 blocks are not as productive as 787, since they only fly to Europe. Most pilots like flying 787 (except for the ex airbus guys/gals).


I’m referring to people leaving the 320 and going to the max. They don’t want the max.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 12:10 am

whywhyzee wrote:
psimpson wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Where will the four A330's come from? I suppose they will be second hand.

Egyptair 4 A333s will exit their fleet during 2019, so it might be those aircrafts Air Canada get?


They are coming in January from TAP.


Thanks for the info, will watch with great interest when they make their way over :thumbsup:
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 12:33 am

CFM565A1 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
psimpson wrote:
Egyptair 4 A333s will exit their fleet during 2019, so it might be those aircrafts Air Canada get?


They are coming in January from TAP.


Thanks for the info, will watch with great interest when they make their way over :thumbsup:


It's actually funny you should mention that, seeing as they are already regular visitors to Toronto. The four will be the new 4 Trent A333's TAP just got, that are in the special liveries. They often show up on TAP's LIS-YYZ route. They will be more than familiar with their new home.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 2:54 am

LAX772LR wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
There is no other "international" airline in Canada besides AC (USA/Mexico excluded). WestJet just now buys 787 and starts their own international long range services. There is also Air Transat, but those serve a handful of destinations only.

So in essence: there is no other international airline in Canada.... besides the two you just mentioned. :lol:


Yep, and Transat serves a lot more than a handful of international routes. They may not serve them every day, but they serve a lot of them.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 4:10 am

whywhyzee wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:

They are coming in January from TAP.


Thanks for the info, will watch with great interest when they make their way over :thumbsup:


It's actually funny you should mention that, seeing as they are already regular visitors to Toronto. The four will be the new 4 Trent A333's TAP just got, that are in the special liveries. They often show up on TAP's LIS-YYZ route. They will be more than familiar with their new home.



You’re right! I was YYZ based for a while in this year and recall seeing them now.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
Miquel787
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 7:49 am

If the 787 is all that bad why do airlines order it? Give me a break..Another thread to trash the 787? A littlebit sick and tired of those comments.
 
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Revelation
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 3:11 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Qantas did it too. Just like AC a big A330 operator. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/qantas-holds-line-on-firming-787-options-446113/ Maybe we should launch "In a fresh blow to Boeing 787, Air Canada and Qantas dropped ...." header somewhere. Just joking :wink2: .

It's probably part of bigger price negotiations. It could as well end up in a bigger 787 commitment. Oil prices are rising again and A330NEO's are coming online.

Yet AC and QF both haven't committed to A330neo, and here's a case where AC could have but found that leasing A330ceos offered better value.

Once again A330neo finds itself as bridesmaid not bride...


It doesn’t mean AC will never order the A330neo in the future, and you can’t really rule it out for as long as they operate ceo’s. Again, people are forgetting that there are many A330ceo operators that aren’t at the stage where they need to be replaced and there are potential orders out there to play for.

I don't think you can interpolate from "here's a case where AC could have (ordered A330neos) but found that leasing A330ceos offered better value" to "AC will never order the A330neo in the future".

Therefore I think you're offering a strawman argument.

I also don't think you can interpolate from "AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options" to "AC will never order more 787s in the future".

AC is deciding in the short term that it's time to retire some 767s and it should be clear that while A330ceos are more modern than 767s they probably aren't the long term answer either. As mjoelnir and others point out, A330ceos are good value for money right now, especially given that AC can use them

While AC had cheap 787 options on hand, we also read Airbus COO Schulz saying that selling A330neo this year is a major goal so I think it's fair to say they could also have gotten A330neo at good prices too.

So it seems to be about minimizing cash outflow in the short term.

Personally I can see NMA/MOM/797 being part of the long term answer.

Maybe they want to conserve cash now so they can pay for 797s later.
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YYZLGA
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 4:14 pm

When are the 787 options actually expiring? AC has said they have no current plans to exercise them, but those plans could change in the future. We also don't know the value of those options--it's possible that the price on them isn't all that different from the price they could get on a new order. We assume that the price they got was very low, but some new 787 orders have apparently been getting pretty good deals.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 4:36 pm

NZ321 wrote:
wave46 wrote:
In the last 10 years, AC has almost completely replaced their fleet. The 777, 787 and 737 and future CS300 - a significant investment. I'd imagine that they're also running out of obvious destinations to add to their network that require something as expensive or capable as the 787.

I'd expect incremental top-up orders in the next few years (see the addition of 4 A330), depending on market conditions. They could be also hedging against the headwinds that are appearing in the industry - fuel prices have climbed, there will be labor contract renewals in this time span and we've had a decent amount of time since the last recession. In addition Westjet is coming in with 787s, so flooding the market with cheap seats might be a pyrrhic victory.

I'd say that this looks prudent on AC's part.


Sorry to say it folks. But a pity AC has such a poor reputation when it comes to service and follow-through. Like really, not in the main game. Why is this? I wish it were different. Since my two awful medium-long haul experiences on AC - one economy and one business - As a current Elite Gold flyer I don't go near them because I haven't heard anything to suggest that the culture has changed. And comments of mates who have taken the plunge - to their regret - only reinforce my position. So it's all very well to keep your fleet up-to-date (you can't say this if you include Rouge) but you also need to attend to the essentials. AC haven't IMHO and that's sad. It could be a different story and that would have made life a lot tougher for a wannabe entrant into long haul flying.


What the hell does that have to do with the thread?

Your two experiences.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
sixtyseven
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 4:43 pm

ac7e7 wrote:
Not exercising the options and going with the A330 makes perfect sense, and I believe it is all about flexibility.

AC can park these aircraft in a moments notice if demand falls. Look at the A320s. Though 11 are slated to leave the fleet in 2019, I believe the A320 will remain for some time as it gives the airline an inexpensive way to add capacity. They will not be taking more 737MAX aircraft above what is already ordered. One A320 has already been repainted in the new livery. They can always park the aircraft as needed.

Air Canada will be investing $275M on interior updates of 12 aircraft vs acquisition of new aircraft. These planes can fly for a few years, and if they need to cut capacity, they can be parked. Not as expensive as parking a newly-delivered 787.
This also gives the airline time to improve cash flow and prepare for the next round of aircraft acquisitions - MOM.
I doubt very much the A330neo is being considered.


Excellent post. And spot on. People here think everything is done in a vacuum of unlimited money. It’s a business move. The deal they got on the 787 was amazing. But not amazing enough for them to fly them somewhere new and lose money. AC loves the airplane. Loves it. I love my car. I don’t need 12 of them.

The growth has been unreal but it has its limit.

People talking about 787/330 has nothing to do with anything.

They’ve built flexibility into their fleet. They can chop capacity very quickly if required which I would say would be very handy to an airline if things slow down.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 4:58 pm

Another poster on here made a very good point, there are a number of good options on the used widebody market that can be much cheaper, and offer a quicker lead time that might be more valuable to AC.

By my estimation, they could probably benefit from 1-2 more 77Ws to allow YYZ-LHR to run 4x daily 77Ws during the summer season, and YYZ-MUC and YYZ-PVG to run year round 77Ws. That would require 1 more frame. There are other routes that could likely benefit from it as well, but if I had to name 3, those would likely be the top candidates.
 
codyul
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Wed May 23, 2018 11:07 pm

Internal correction of the news story:
At this time no options exercised, but will keep delivery slots and if the business case is made to order, they will be.
YUL PNC :weightlifter:
 
robsaw
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Thu May 24, 2018 5:39 am

codyul wrote:
Internal correction of the news story:
At this time no options exercised, but will keep delivery slots and if the business case is made to order, they will be.


Well, he did say "no plan to" as opposed to "cancel" their options. Unless AC discloses when the options expire, which they won't, because until it becomes a financial committment they have no accounting/securities-exchange regulatory need to do so, we have no idea as to the significance of the "plan". The whole thread assumed a leap that wasn't there.
 
SC430
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Thu May 24, 2018 12:38 pm

Miquel787 wrote:
If the 787 is all that bad why do airlines order it? Give me a break..Another thread to trash the 787? A littlebit sick and tired of those comments.


It's sort of order envy Miquel, as I have stated on other threads in the four year span (2015 - 2018) the 787 program will pretty much out sell all (3) Airbus wide body programs combined!! The Dreamilner's order and delivery ramp-up is unequaled.
 
bmacleod
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Fri May 25, 2018 1:09 pm

Wouldn't be surprised if AC is waiting for A330NEO prices to come down a bit or negotiating with Airbus for a discount.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
bmacleod
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Fri May 25, 2018 1:46 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
psimpson wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Where will the four A330's come from? I suppose they will be second hand.

Egyptair 4 A333s will exit their fleet during 2019, so it might be those aircrafts Air Canada get?


They are coming in January from TAP.


In another discussion - it said they (4 A333s) will be coming from SQ.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1389793&hilit=air+canada
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Fri May 25, 2018 2:10 pm

bmacleod wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
psimpson wrote:
Egyptair 4 A333s will exit their fleet during 2019, so it might be those aircrafts Air Canada get?


They are coming in January from TAP.


In another discussion - it said they (4 A333s) will be coming from SQ.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1389793&hilit=air+canada


They were originally SQ planes, TAP has had them for ~ 1 year.
 
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yyz717
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Fri May 25, 2018 4:54 pm

ac7e7 wrote:
One A320 has already been repainted in the new livery. They can always park the aircraft as needed.


The one A320 that has been repainted thus far, is one of 8 "newer" A320s in the AC fleet that are considerably (well, relatively) younger than the other 34 AC A320s, and were probably destined to be the last A320s to leave the fleet anyway. Makes sense to repaint at least these 8 aircraft.

I agree...all A320s (even the 8 newer ones) can be parked if market conditions warrant it, as can any or all of the 8 (soon to be 12) A330s in the fleet. Which means having a mix fleet (320/MAX and 330/787) is very flexible for AC to enable efficient growth or efficient fleet drawdown if needed, even on short notice.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
airzona11
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Sat May 26, 2018 3:55 am

bmacleod wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if AC is waiting for A330NEO prices to come down a bit or negotiating with Airbus for a discount.


That does them no good. The A330neo is interim. The A330CEOs are USED, not new. They bought them for the low capex and to augment their current fleet. AC has experience with the CEOs and cheap used A333s are coming available, so they can patch the gap with used A333s. Perfect planes for east cost Canada to Europe. 787s aren't going anywhere. 777s arent going anywhere. This thread is losing the context about just how many planes are involved. It is not a lot.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Sat May 26, 2018 7:22 am

Another sign that the 797/MOM isn’t just theoretical?
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

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idjim319
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Sat May 26, 2018 4:55 pm

As a Y fare paying passenger, I'm thrilled that AC is buying used A333s over new 787s. As much as I love flying and enjoy the thrill of being in an airplane, my last long haul trip was in a 787 and I couldn't wait to get out of that airplane. It was full and the 9 across seating is a step too far. It was obvious my flight attendant was annoyed with people leaning out into the aisle for a little shoulder space (it must be awful to have to walk up and down the aisles sideways dodging shoulders for house on end!). The A330, as long as the remain 8 across in y, will be my preferred aircraft. Sad to see the 767s leave for exactly the same reason.
 
idjim319
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Sat May 26, 2018 6:26 pm

idjim319 wrote:
As a Y fare paying passenger, I'm thrilled that AC is buying used A333s over new 787s. As much as I love flying and enjoy the thrill of being in an airplane, my last long haul trip was in a 787 and I couldn't wait to get out of that airplane. It was full and the 9 across seating is a step too far. It was obvious my flight attendant was annoyed with people leaning out into the aisle for a little shoulder space (it must be awful to have to walk up and down the aisles sideways dodging shoulders for hours on end!). The A330, as long as the remain 8 across in y, will be my preferred aircraft. Sad to see the 767s leave for exactly the same reason.
 
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QB737
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Sat May 26, 2018 6:43 pm

idjim319 wrote:
As a Y fare paying passenger, I'm thrilled that AC is buying used A333s over new 787s. As much as I love flying and enjoy the thrill of being in an airplane, my last long haul trip was in a 787 and I couldn't wait to get out of that airplane. It was full and the 9 across seating is a step too far. It was obvious my flight attendant was annoyed with people leaning out into the aisle for a little shoulder space (it must be awful to have to walk up and down the aisles sideways dodging shoulders for house on end!). The A330, as long as the remain 8 across in y, will be my preferred aircraft. Sad to see the 767s leave for exactly the same reason.


I'm sure they will find a way to squeeze in a 3-3-3 configuration on the 330 like they did on the 777. :rotfl:
Ben YVR
 
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ACCS300
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Sat May 26, 2018 7:05 pm

QB737 wrote:
idjim319 wrote:
As a Y fare paying passenger, I'm thrilled that AC is buying used A333s over new 787s. As much as I love flying and enjoy the thrill of being in an airplane, my last long haul trip was in a 787 and I couldn't wait to get out of that airplane. It was full and the 9 across seating is a step too far. It was obvious my flight attendant was annoyed with people leaning out into the aisle for a little shoulder space (it must be awful to have to walk up and down the aisles sideways dodging shoulders for house on end!). The A330, as long as the remain 8 across in y, will be my preferred aircraft. Sad to see the 767s leave for exactly the same reason.


I'm sure they will find a way to squeeze in a 3-3-3 configuration on the 330 like they did on the 777. :rotfl:


Air Transit already does 3-3-3 in their A330's as they did in their A310's. Fewer complaints likely because most of the flyers are leisure holiday-makers. No legacy carrier has done 3-3-3 in A330's to my knowledge with the exception of PR and they're reverting to 2-4-2.
 
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Polot
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Sat May 26, 2018 7:09 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
QB737 wrote:
idjim319 wrote:
As a Y fare paying passenger, I'm thrilled that AC is buying used A333s over new 787s. As much as I love flying and enjoy the thrill of being in an airplane, my last long haul trip was in a 787 and I couldn't wait to get out of that airplane. It was full and the 9 across seating is a step too far. It was obvious my flight attendant was annoyed with people leaning out into the aisle for a little shoulder space (it must be awful to have to walk up and down the aisles sideways dodging shoulders for house on end!). The A330, as long as the remain 8 across in y, will be my preferred aircraft. Sad to see the 767s leave for exactly the same reason.


I'm sure they will find a way to squeeze in a 3-3-3 configuration on the 330 like they did on the 777. :rotfl:


Air Transit already does 3-3-3 in their A330's as they did in their A310's. Fewer complaints likely because most of the flyers are leisure holiday-makers. No legacy carrier has done 3-3-3 in A330's to my knowledge with the exception of PR and they're reverting to 2-4-2.

Mexicana’s two A330s were 3-3-3 (and both went to Air Transat when MX collapsed).
 
SkyReg
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Sat May 26, 2018 7:34 pm

Complaints on the MAX at AC have been primarily from pilots and cabin crew. Pilots coming from the Airbus are finding a step-back in terms of automation and flight deck ergonomics. Cabin crew are having a tough time dealing with the lavatory configuration as well as the lack of space to fit a garbage cart (They have to pick up trash using zip tie bags). Also, manual girt bar arming by hand seems to be too much work for many "older" crew members.... no insult intended.
 
codyul
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Mon May 28, 2018 1:53 am

SkyReg wrote:
Complaints on the MAX at AC have been primarily from pilots and cabin crew. Pilots coming from the Airbus are finding a step-back in terms of automation and flight deck ergonomics. Cabin crew are having a tough time dealing with the lavatory configuration as well as the lack of space to fit a garbage cart (They have to pick up trash using zip tie bags). Also, manual girt bar arming by hand seems to be too much work for many "older" crew members.... no insult intended.
YUL PNC :weightlifter:
 
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767333ER
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Re: AC Makes A Pass On Their B787 Options

Mon May 28, 2018 3:52 am

SkyReg wrote:
Complaints on the MAX at AC have been primarily from pilots and cabin crew. Pilots coming from the Airbus are finding a step-back in terms of automation and flight deck ergonomics. Cabin crew are having a tough time dealing with the lavatory configuration as well as the lack of space to fit a garbage cart (They have to pick up trash using zip tie bags). Also, manual girt bar arming by hand seems to be too much work for many "older" crew members.... no insult intended.

:checkmark:

This about sums up what I’ve heard. Too bad they weren’t A320neos as the only complaint would’ve been the lavs as the rest would’ve been the same.
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