AA2233 declares emergency.

mx330 · Wed May 23, 2018 12:59 am

MMMX closed due to heavy rain.
AA2233 DFW - MEX has been on the air for quite a while and does not have enough fuel to make it to the alternate airport (MMAA). He has requested several other alternate airports but all are completely full at this point.
He has been offered PBC but does not have charts to land.

The pilot has declared an emergency. Looks as he will fly to PBC vectored.

Will keep you posted.

BoeingGuy · Wed May 23, 2018 1:08 am

I wonder why PBC was not the alternate in the first place. AA serves PBC, but not ACA.

mx330 · Wed May 23, 2018 1:17 am

Sounds amazing, but: they did not have PBC charts on board.

32andBelow · Wed May 23, 2018 1:18 am

Do they not have iPads?

Samrnpage · Wed May 23, 2018 1:26 am

Is it down yet?

G500Captain · Wed May 23, 2018 1:28 am

They are on the ground at PBC.
Kind of poor decision making to overfly your bingo fuel to get to your alternate. Sounds like there might be something else that we don’t know, as keeping alternate fuel plus reserves is crucial.

soflaflyer · Wed May 23, 2018 1:32 am

FlightRadar24 showing 0 altitude at PBC and a departure time from PBC to MEX at 21:30.
Anyone else have info?

MO11 · Wed May 23, 2018 1:52 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
I wonder why PBC was not the alternate in the first place. AA serves PBC, but not ACA.

Envoy serves PBC.

CarlosSi · Wed May 23, 2018 2:12 am

Well our reliable friend flightaware said it landed at 7:59pm, central I presume.

N353SK · Wed May 23, 2018 2:19 am

32andBelow wrote:
Do they not have iPads?

The Jeppesen Chart app on the iPad includes only the charts your company chooses to pay for.

airtran737 · Wed May 23, 2018 2:31 am

At least they came in during the day. PBC is no joke at night, especially if you don’t know what you’re doing. There’s a lot of cumulus-granite out there to smack into, and not having a chart adds some difficulty.

JAGflyer · Wed May 23, 2018 2:35 am

It is not wise to not divert to your alternate airport once you hit your min. diversion fuel. However, it is possible to revise the alternate with dispatch in-flight to something closer to free up some fuel (closer alternate means lower fuel level at which you must divert). With what we know, it seems like poor decision making on the part of the crew.

BoeingGuy · Wed May 23, 2018 2:48 am

What other alternates did they request and were denied? Couldn’t they have gone to GDL, ZIH or ZLO?

trent772 · Wed May 23, 2018 3:26 am

How about Toluca (MMTO), it’s a very short distance (30nm) from MEX, it’s literally over the hill heading west, it has a single long runway (>13000ft).
Who knows, maybe it’s so close that the awful weather battering Mexico City was also over Toluca.

mx330 · Wed May 23, 2018 3:42 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
What other alternates did they request and were denied? Couldn’t they have gone to GDL, ZIH or ZLO?

ACA, TAM, GDL... all I can remember. The ATC kept saying all airports were already full....

Juan

mx330 · Wed May 23, 2018 3:43 am

soflaflyer wrote:
mx330 wrote:
MMMX closed due to heavy rain.
AA2233 DFW - MEX has been on the air for quite a while and does not have enough fuel to make it to the alternate airport (MMAA). He has requested several other alternate airports but all are completely full at this point.
He has been offered PBC but does not have charts to land.

The pilot has declared an emergency. Looks as he will fly to PBC vectored.

Will keep you posted.

Was it clear if the alternates were "full" in terms of parking space or in terms of ATC's ability to handle more traffic?
I'm sure AA will review to understand how the events unfolded but would be interesting for us to know as well.

Yes it was full in terms of parking space. ATC was very professional at all times.

soflaflyer · Wed May 23, 2018 3:46 am

mx330 wrote:
MMMX closed due to heavy rain.
AA2233 DFW - MEX has been on the air for quite a while and does not have enough fuel to make it to the alternate airport (MMAA). He has requested several other alternate airports but all are completely full at this point.
He has been offered PBC but does not have charts to land.

The pilot has declared an emergency. Looks as he will fly to PBC vectored.

Will keep you posted.

Was it clear if the alternates were "full" in terms of parking space or in terms of ATC's ability to handle more traffic?
I'm sure AA will review to understand how the events unfolded but would be interesting for us to know as well.

F9Animal · Wed May 23, 2018 5:28 am

I can appreciate an airport being full, but I would think if anything they could have accommodated an extra plane, even if it meant parking it on a remote area. Again, I would think?

OB1504 · Wed May 23, 2018 5:29 am

MEX being closed explains why AA257 MIA-MEX returned to MIA tonight.

32andBelow · Wed May 23, 2018 5:36 am

F9Animal wrote:
I can appreciate an airport being full, but I would think if anything they could have accommodated an extra plane, even if it meant parking it on a remote area. Again, I would think?

If it comes down to it the captain will firmly inform atc where they will be landing. Captain must have been okay to wait a few.

rlwynn · Wed May 23, 2018 6:05 am

Where is PBC?

Why is it so hard for people to write the city names in this forum?

aviatorcraig · Wed May 23, 2018 6:09 am

rlwynn wrote:
Where is PBC?

Why is it so hard for people to write the city names in this forum?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=which+airport+is+PBC%3F

rlwynn · Wed May 23, 2018 6:16 am

aviatorcraig wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
Where is PBC?

Why is it so hard for people to write the city names in this forum?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=which+airport+is+PBC%3F

And why should people have to do that when reading a thread?

Balerit · Wed May 23, 2018 7:20 am

rlwynn wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
Where is PBC?

Why is it so hard for people to write the city names in this forum?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=which+airport+is+PBC%3F

And why should people have to do that when reading a thread?

Because this is a worldwide forum and there are 17, 678 commercial airports in the world and it's a pain in the arse trying look them up all the time, I'm in MZY.

JannEejit · Wed May 23, 2018 7:31 am

N353SK wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Do they not have iPads?

The Jeppesen Chart app on the iPad includes only the charts your company chooses to pay for.

How much are airlines expected to pay for digital charts ? Is the paper version still viable ?

zeke · Wed May 23, 2018 10:59 am

F9Animal wrote:
I can appreciate an airport being full, but I would think if anything they could have accommodated an extra plane, even if it meant parking it on a remote area. Again, I would think?

This scenario happens every year in typhoon season around Asia, an airport will not accept you if they are full unless you declare an emergency.

So it’s a chess game, burn off fuel until you get to emergency levels. When you park, don’t expect a gate, fuel, food, or servicing, they said they were full.

It is not stressful, people on both sides of the radio transmissions are working towards a safe outcome in the bounds of the rules they have to work with.

It may sound a lot more dramatic to non professional ATC or flight crew than it actually is.

9w748capt · Wed May 23, 2018 2:24 pm

rlwynn wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
Where is PBC?

Why is it so hard for people to write the city names in this forum?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=which+airport+is+PBC%3F

And why should people have to do that when reading a thread?

And why shouldn't people show some initiative and look things up themselves for once? Typical millennial laziness.

burnsie28 · Wed May 23, 2018 2:52 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
I wonder why PBC was not the alternate in the first place. AA serves PBC, but not ACA.

Eagle services PBC. Even if mainline served, if say the 738 was never planned there is a possibility that AA doesn't set that up as a diversion for that fleet type. Same way that not all airports are alternates for a A330. DL wouldn't make GFK an alternate for MSP because of runway length, if the airport has obstructions, certain ILS restrictions or lack there of, ramp space, ramp being able to handle weights etc.

PlanesNTrains · Wed May 23, 2018 3:03 pm

9w748capt wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=which+airport+is+PBC%3F

And why should people have to do that when reading a thread?

And why shouldn't people show some initiative and look things up themselves for once? Typical millennial laziness.

Obviously people look these up all the time. Most of us don’t know every code. Certainly, though, it’s appreciated when someone types out the less-common one’s. Obviously it’s not required but it is a pleasant consideration.

BTC · Wed May 23, 2018 3:07 pm

9w748capt wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=which+airport+is+PBC%3F

And why should people have to do that when reading a thread?

And why shouldn't people show some initiative and look things up themselves for once? Typical millennial laziness.

Hello.
It's good practice to use abbreviations only when the full name has been written in the first place.
I think it's unfair to say it's millennial laziness not following the good practice.

Best wishes.

mjoelnir · Wed May 23, 2018 3:35 pm

I find it strange that a flight to MEX, does not have the maps for the surrounding airports exactly in case of emergency.

pylon101 · Wed May 23, 2018 3:56 pm

I agree that it would be fair and polite to give city name.
Some of us know IATA or ICAO codes. And they can sound quite different.
Say, Moscow Domodedovo airport is DME/UUDD.

PixelPilot · Wed May 23, 2018 4:22 pm

Balerit wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=which+airport+is+PBC%3F

And why should people have to do that when reading a thread?

Because this is a worldwide forum and there are 17, 678 commercial airports in the world and it's a pain in the arse trying look them up all the time, I'm in MZY.

You could just write the city name and then nobody would have to look things up. But hey, "I'm a pro aviator logic"

APettyJ · Wed May 23, 2018 4:38 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Balerit wrote:
rlwynn wrote:

And why should people have to do that when reading a thread?

Because this is a worldwide forum and there are 17, 678 commercial airports in the world and it's a pain in the arse trying look them up all the time, I'm in MZY.

You could just write the city name and then nobody would have to look things up. But hey, "I'm a pro aviator logic"

A lot simpler typing "PBC" every time than "Puebla International Airport". I simply highlight the letters and Google them and I get my airport name.

Passedv1 · Wed May 23, 2018 4:45 pm

There seems to be a misconception about what it means to have an emergency. It does not have to mean that passengers are facing imminent death.

In this particular case it sounds to me like the Captain determined that a landing at PBC was the safest course of action. His declaration of an emergency was to make clear that he was using his emergency authority to land at PBC in spite of the fact that he didn’t have the technical regulatory requirements. Charts in this case.

It doesn’t sound like the safe completion of the flight was ever in doubt. He technically could have declared an emergency and just as easily landed in MEX but the safe completion of the flight means wheels chocked at the gate so if they don’t have anywhere to park you then that opens up a whole other can of worms.

kalvado · Wed May 23, 2018 4:48 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Balerit wrote:
rlwynn wrote:

And why should people have to do that when reading a thread?

Because this is a worldwide forum and there are 17, 678 commercial airports in the world and it's a pain in the arse trying look them up all the time, I'm in MZY.

You could just write the city name and then nobody would have to look things up. But hey, "I'm a pro aviator logic"

OK, but do you know where Puebla is without looking at the map? Without that, "Puebla" is as useless as "PBC"..

seat24charlie · Wed May 23, 2018 5:20 pm

kalvado wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Balerit wrote:

Because this is a worldwide forum and there are 17, 678 commercial airports in the world and it's a pain in the arse trying look them up all the time, I'm in MZY.

You could just write the city name and then nobody would have to look things up. But hey, "I'm a pro aviator logic"

OK, but do you know where Puebla is without looking at the map? Without that, "Puebla" is as useless as "PBC"..

Good lord, this thread has to be satire, surely? We've had more posts arguing about the use of IATA codes than about the actual events

N62NA · Wed May 23, 2018 7:13 pm

rlwynn wrote:
Where is PBC?

Why is it so hard for people to write the city names in this forum?

I suggest you send a message to one of the site administrators. This site USED to have a great feature where you moved your mouse over the 3 letter airport code and the name of the airport / city would pop up. Somewhere along the way, that feature either got broken or was removed. It would be wonderful if they brought it back.

Aviano789 · Wed May 23, 2018 7:33 pm

rlwynn wrote:
Where is PBC?

Why is it so hard for people to write the city names in this forum?

Puebla International Airport, aka Hermanos Serdán International Airport (IATA: PBC, ICAO: MMPB) is an international airport located near Puebla, South East of Mexico City. It handles national and international air traffic for the city of Puebla

BoeingGuy · Wed May 23, 2018 7:56 pm

Aviano789 wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
Where is PBC?

Why is it so hard for people to write the city names in this forum?

Puebla International Airport, aka Hermanos Serdán International Airport (IATA: PBC, ICAO: MMPB) is an international airport located near Puebla, South East of Mexico City. It handles national and international air traffic for the city of Puebla

Guess how I figured out where PBC is? I looked it up. Not a big deal. I learned a few things by looking it up too.

What is the procedure for landing at an airport in which you do not have a chart for? I'm guessing they'd be vectored to an ILS.

Aviano789 · Wed May 23, 2018 8:05 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Aviano789 wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
Where is PBC?

Why is it so hard for people to write the city names in this forum?

Puebla International Airport, aka Hermanos Serdán International Airport (IATA: PBC, ICAO: MMPB) is an international airport located near Puebla, South East of Mexico City. It handles national and international air traffic for the city of Puebla

Guess how I figured out where PBC is? I looked it up. Not a big deal. I learned a few things by looking it up too.

What is the procedure for landing at an airport in which you do not have a chart for? I'm guessing they'd be vectored to an ILS.

Its not that hard to look up any airport in the world nowadays,
https://skyvector.com/airport/MMPB/Puebla-Airport
https://skyvector.com/?ll=19.158138889, ... 301&zoom=2

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed May 23, 2018 8:07 pm

Airlines have Ops Specs. Typically, the charts will only include the airports that the airline is authorized to land at. If PBC is not an authorized C70 Ops Spec airport, it isnt likely to be included in the charts. Under normal operations, it is not legal to land where you are not authorized. Not having those airports in the charts is one way for the pilots to know the airline isnt authorized to be landing there unless its an emergency. Pilots are not usually well versed in Ops Specs sadly and dont always consult with the dispatcher who has this info before diverting.

Because of the mountain terrain in Mexico, many airports are included the airline Ops Specs as emergency enroute alternates in case of an engine failure. Those would be the charts. The airline must have determined that PBC was unlikely to ever be used as an enroute driftdown alternate and the terrain made it unsuitable for use as a destination alternate airport so didnt get authorization for its use.

Aviano789 · Wed May 23, 2018 8:27 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Airlines have Ops Specs. Typically, the charts will only include the airports that the airline is authorized to land at. If PBC is not an authorized C70 Ops Spec airport, it isnt likely to be included in the charts. Under normal operations, it is not legal to land where you are not authorized. Not having those airports in the charts is one way for the pilots to know the airline isnt authorized to be landing there unless its an emergency. Pilots are not usually well versed in Ops Specs sadly and dont always consult with the dispatcher who has this info before diverting.

Because of the mountain terrain in Mexico, many airports are included the airline Ops Specs as emergency enroute alternates in case of an engine failure. Those would be the charts. The airline must have determined that PBC was unlikely to ever be used as an enroute driftdown alternate and the terrain made it unsuitable for use as a destination alternate airport so didnt get authorization for its use.

Even the IFR lows are showing the MEA in the area of MMPB) to be between 13,000' & 16,000' this can be tricky for pilot with no published approaches handy.The question remains why did they not pick Toluca (MMTO) which is stone throw over the hill from MMMX?

32andBelow · Wed May 23, 2018 8:30 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Airlines have Ops Specs. Typically, the charts will only include the airports that the airline is authorized to land at. If PBC is not an authorized C70 Ops Spec airport, it isnt likely to be included in the charts. Under normal operations, it is not legal to land where you are not authorized. Not having those airports in the charts is one way for the pilots to know the airline isnt authorized to be landing there unless its an emergency. Pilots are not usually well versed in Ops Specs sadly and dont always consult with the dispatcher who has this info before diverting.

Because of the mountain terrain in Mexico, many airports are included the airline Ops Specs as emergency enroute alternates in case of an engine failure. Those would be the charts. The airline must have determined that PBC was unlikely to ever be used as an enroute driftdown alternate and the terrain made it unsuitable for use as a destination alternate airport so didnt get authorization for its use.

Except in an emergency you want to know the approaches for absolutely anywhere you might have to go. To it’s weird to restrict the approaches.

BoeingGuy · Wed May 23, 2018 10:21 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Airlines have Ops Specs. Typically, the charts will only include the airports that the airline is authorized to land at. If PBC is not an authorized C70 Ops Spec airport, it isnt likely to be included in the charts. Under normal operations, it is not legal to land where you are not authorized. Not having those airports in the charts is one way for the pilots to know the airline isnt authorized to be landing there unless its an emergency. Pilots are not usually well versed in Ops Specs sadly and dont always consult with the dispatcher who has this info before diverting.

Because of the mountain terrain in Mexico, many airports are included the airline Ops Specs as emergency enroute alternates in case of an engine failure. Those would be the charts. The airline must have determined that PBC was unlikely to ever be used as an enroute driftdown alternate and the terrain made it unsuitable for use as a destination alternate airport so didnt get authorization for its use.

In this case they had a fuel emergency so the Captain was justified in landing there anyway, correct? I think that's called the Captain's Emergency Authority.

N353SK · Wed May 23, 2018 10:34 pm

JannEejit wrote:

How much are airlines expected to pay for digital charts ? Is the paper version still viable ?

I believe each company negotiates prices individually, but a totally unverified number I've heard is $.05 - $.10 per page, per pilot (I'm not sure how long of a time period this urban legend of a price covers).

I know, for example, that while many airlines include company pages (detailed terminal maps, company radio frequencies, etc) in their Jeppesen subscription Southwest opts to keep them in a different app on the iPad which I'd assume has cheaper distribution.

I know of a few airlines that still have paper charts, so I'm sure it's an option, but I can guarantee that paper will not save money over digital distribution, and I doubt many pilots would want to go back to paper.

TheRedBaron · Wed May 23, 2018 10:39 pm

seat24charlie wrote:
kalvado wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

You could just write the city name and then nobody would have to look things up. But hey, "I'm a pro aviator logic"

OK, but do you know where Puebla is without looking at the map? Without that, "Puebla" is as useless as "PBC"..

Good lord, this thread has to be satire, surely? We've had more posts arguing about the use of IATA codes than about the actual events

Welcome to Airliners.net circa 2017 where the thread theme get derailed asap...

N62NA wrote:
rlwynn wrote:
Where is PBC?

Why is it so hard for people to write the city names in this forum?

I suggest you send a message to one of the site administrators. This site USED to have a great feature where you moved your mouse over the 3 letter airport code and the name of the airport / city would pop up. Somewhere along the way, that feature either got broken or was removed. It would be wonderful if they brought it back.

ANET old timers loved this feature, it was super simple to hover the three letter code and know exactly what it was.... ii guess its a feature they haven't deemed important in the new software. And while at it there is no multi quote command.... also a great way to simplify things.

I really think Toluca should have been used but weather in Toluca is sometimes worse than MMMX (lol) If that is even posible...

Best Regards
TRB

mcg · Wed May 23, 2018 10:57 pm

So now I'm an 'old timer'?

IPFreely · Thu May 24, 2018 12:20 am

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Airlines have Ops Specs. Typically, the charts will only include the airports that the airline is authorized to land at. If PBC is not an authorized C70 Ops Spec airport, it isnt likely to be included in the charts.

With today's technology it seems like it should be possible to upload a chart to an airplane in flight in case of emergency, subscription or not.

32andBelow · Thu May 24, 2018 1:37 am

The airline i worked at used foreflight they had every approach in the continent.

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