tphuang wrote:

toobz wrote:

Yeah I just can’t with these two. What are they putting in your water in Detroit?? How exactly is Georgia not an east coast state?? Amazing..I wasn’t even born in the US and I am obviously more knowledgeable when it comes to your geography lol. Annoying and unreal.

My bet is on JFK. Although ATL is also a good guess due to the amount of connections. 777LR for equipment. I think NYC would love this. Who would take UA or AI unless EWR was your backyard..

Nyc already has ek. Which most people fly. This is not some high yielding market that nobody has figured out.

Through all the arguing on which city (JFK/ATL/DTW) this is my favorite post. EK flies to JFK so why even discuss. Brilliant. On the flip side, we could calculate all the pax EK, QR, EY carry to India every day and add that to the amount of pax up for grabs...

And KLM 617 you are totally right with your AKL-ORD example. All I would say is that NZ first flew to LAX and SFO - the two most logical nonstop destinations from AKL given location, O&D and connections. Then they went to ORD. India still doesn’t have basic nonstop connections to the US. AI has done a good job connecting Delhi to the main business and VFR points. DL/9W now need to start to build their network. The one stop via EU is a great start. But they need some nonstops to satisfy business and premium VFR pax. JFK-BOM would be a great first step. Then ATL/DTW or DEL what ever. Also I bet the JFK-BOM daily pax numbers include a more affluent pax that travels more often. SFO probably has an equally affluent / cosmopolitan demo for pax traveling to India. That said if DL’s data shows attractive pax need to fly DTW-BOM, then so be it. They have the data.

Cool. They fought the ME3. Now they got Wow Air to make claims against. I guess they can use them as an excuse if things don't work out.

klakzky123 wrote:

Presumably JFK and maybe ATL? Agree on DL needing to stop talking about the ME3.

Yup, maybe that's the only maximum distance from Mumbai?

phluser wrote:

For pax of Indian citizenship, transiting in UK requires a transit visa, which is a hassle to get. Many avoid transiting in LHR also because of the additional screening and the terminal setup, but the transit visa a big deterrent from the Indian and H1B point of sale.

That is not true. Passengers of Indian citizenship do not need a UK transit visa if they have a valid US visa. And that includes H1B visa holders.
https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y/indi ... re_else/no

dtw2hyd wrote:

ATL has one-stop to 12 Indian airports
DTW has one-stop to 4 Indian airports.

A non-stop to BOM/DEL also adds one-stops to 35-40 Indian airports

Can you list the airports?
Not to nitpick, but I count 13 from ATL and 5 from DTW.

A nonstop to BOM/DEL from anywhere in the USA will serve the same number of one stop options to other Indian airports. My point is it does not matter where in the USA the origin of the nonstop is if the goal is to connect 35-40 Indian airports. The origin becomes important if you want to maximize your returns.

LAX772LR wrote:

RTW00 wrote:

With this BOM will be well connected with US through Skyteam- LHR (Virgin/Jet)

Neither Virgin nor Jet are in SkyTeam.



Thanks for correcting!
I wanted to say BOM is well connected with Delta Partners.

I keep getting confused. Can someone here with direct knowledge of the situation tell us once and for all what MTOW Delta's A350-900s have? One poster keeps insisting its 268 tonnes, which is why Delta's longest A350-900 is ATL-ICN, whereas the 275 tonne version, which others have said Delta's is rated, can operate much longer flights but the 77L, due to its ability to pack the belly and fly without any weight restrictions, is still flying Delta's longest routes, namely ATL-JNB, LAX-SYD, and soon ATL-PVG. I do remember an article and I'll try to find it if I can which Ed stated that Delta WOULD RETURN to ATL-PVG, which they are about to do in July, but they needed the appropriate aircraft, namely the A350-900, which was mentioned in this article as the aircraft for a resumed ATL-PVG, as the 77L was too much of a gas guzzler. Well, the 77L will operate ATL-PVG from the start. So which is it? Also, is it possible to increase the MTOW from 268 tonnes to 275 tonnes? I know Delta had the MTOW on the 777-200ER fleet increased to 656,000 lbs from 648,000 lbs. (Might be off by one ton there.)

LAX772LR wrote:

jagraham wrote:

It is also worth noting that when Delta served India before, it was thru CDG. Not nonstop from the US.

Not quite.

DL's nonstops to India, in order of most recently operating are:
AMS-BOM
ATL-BOM
JFK-BOM
CDG-MAA
CDG-BOM
FRA-BOM

Add FRA-DEL to that list, which DL flew 3-4 times weekly between 1992-1994.

Man, I remember the days when SJU-Frankfurt was on a Boeing 747 (Lufthansa) and non-stop legs such as JFK-BOM were not even imagined! Now, we are talking about Atlanta-Mumbai non-stop, on a two-holer!!

DeSpringbokke wrote:

So which is it? Also, is it possible to increase the MTOW from 268 tonnes to 275 tonnes? I know Delta had the MTOW on the 777-200ER fleet increased to 656,000 lbs from 648,000 lbs. (Might be off by one ton there.)

DL's aircraft were originally purchased at 268T, and IINM, they still have them there.

Yes it's possible to take previously-purchased A359s up to at least 277T (CX has done just that) and possibly the current 278T max for the non-ULR.

The A359ULR and ACJ359 currently sits at 280T, and standard A359s after 2020 will also have 280T capability.

DeSpringbokke wrote:

I know Delta had the MTOW on the 777-200ER fleet increased to 656,000 lbs from 648,000 lbs. (Might be off by one ton there.)

Correct. They uprated to 656K while using the 77Es on JFK-BOM, prior to the -LRs' arrival.

AntonioMartin wrote:

Now, we are talking about Atlanta-Mumbai non-stop, on a two-holer!!

...this is nothing remotely new.

ATL-BOM was already done nonstop with a twinjet, a decade ago.
https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/sto ... ily86.html

This would just be a resumption.

ocracoke wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

jagraham wrote:

It is also worth noting that when Delta served India before, it was thru CDG. Not nonstop from the US.

Not quite.

DL's nonstops to India, in order of most recently operating are:
AMS-BOM
ATL-BOM
JFK-BOM
CDG-MAA
CDG-BOM
FRA-BOM

Add FRA-DEL to that list, which DL flew 3-4 times weekly between 1992-1994.

There are only 2 nonstops listed from the USA. When did DL stop flying those two???

jagraham wrote:

There are only 2 nonstops listed from the USA. When did DL stop flying those two???

JFK-BOM 2006-2008
ATL-BOM 2008-2009

binayak wrote:

Plus jet has in recent times lost quite a few Delhi based FFs to vistara i e 9W's position at DEL has weakened.

Competition in play; can only be good for the consumer.

binayak wrote:

Best according to me will be DL must start with JFK BOM and if in 3-4 years, demand rises then DL/9W can do ATL BOM also. 9W will be making a lot of changes in its domestic network so I think DL is waiting to see 9W's new network and their departure banks from BOM.

Interesting. Makes sense for DL to stick to BOM for the time-being. DL has had trouble sustaining flights from non-DL hubs to CDG. With that history, it is very unlikely it will start a flight to DEL especially in light of 9W down-sizing its domestic network.

On other hand, if Vistara's network from DEL is growing, a good case for it to eventually take-over AI.

vadodara wrote:

binayak wrote:

Plus jet has in recent times lost quite a few Delhi based FFs to vistara i e 9W's position at DEL has weakened.

Competition in play; can only be good for the consumer.

Initially it made me hard to believe that an airline with such a limited network can have platinum members too.

vadodara wrote:

Interesting. Makes sense for DL to stick to BOM for the time-being. DL has had trouble sustaining flights from non-DL hubs to CDG. With that history, it is very unlikely it will start a flight to DEL especially in light of 9W down-sizing its domestic network.

On other hand, if Vistara's network from DEL is growing, a good case for it to eventually take-over AI.

The major changes in 9W's network will be to try out all those routes out of their hubs/ increase frequencies which are currently not possible with their old fleet but can be done with the 737MAX.
Another reason for 9W losing market share at DEL is that their network out of DEL isn't favorable for most FFs. For example route DEL HYD is operated 2x daily by 9W , 11x daily by 6E , 3x daily by vistara and we all know who out of the 3 had entered the market first. Eventually FFs will go for an airline which provides more choice.

I thought about this so wanted to write it here:
DL is starting BOM flight in 2019 (month not mentioned).
9W will unveil new B777 interiors along with a new J product by 2019 end.

If my equations are correct then I feel DL might launch India by 2019 November and whichever route DL starts , 9W will also fly it with their retrofitted 77Ws so that both operating 3x weekly each ensure pax can get the non stop almost every day.

NZ321 wrote:

But the 77L is a gas guzzler and fuel is heading up.

How can the 77L be a gas guzzler? I thought the A340 was a gas guzzler, replaced by the more efficient 777. At least, that's what I have read on this website for many years. And now the 77L suddenly is a gas guzzler. I suggest a ban on the use of this popular term. And also on the term game changer.

vadodara wrote:

DL has had trouble sustaining flights from non-DL hubs to CDG.

PIT, RDU, and BOS might disagree... and DL just decided to start IND-CDG, so they can't be that gun-shy.

tphuang wrote:

[And since we are talking about India here, how about a complete selection of Indian movie/music content like EK has and great selection of Indian meals.

I can personally attest to seeing substantial Mandarin and Hindi content on DL IFE on a "regional" 737, which flew to the Caribbean. This was two months ago.
Obviously, this aircraft won't be flying anywhere near the sub-continent.

Delta has matured post-merger into a respectable International class airline, and I believe they have Northwest to thank for some of that.
Still, it will take a full generation until non-US pax to reverse some dated perceptions.

binayak wrote:

Initially it made me hard to believe that an airline with such a limited network can have platinum members too.

Right from the outset, they have offered a policy where they match the status of AI / 9W loyals starting from Gold - so Gold and Plat.

I do agree that it would have been tough to gain such a status organically on the relatively slim Vistara network so far.

FlyHappy wrote:

tphuang wrote:

[And since we are talking about India here, how about a complete selection of Indian movie/music content like EK has and great selection of Indian meals.

I can personally attest to seeing substantial Mandarin and Hindi content on DL IFE on a "regional" 737, which flew to the Caribbean. This was two months ago.
Obviously, this aircraft won't be flying anywhere near the sub-continent.

Delta has matured post-merger into a respectable International class airline, and I believe they have Northwest to thank for some of that.
Still, it will take a full generation until non-US pax to reverse some dated perceptions.

There is what you think is substantial vs what is on ek. Ek has a lot of experience with Indian market and the product they have really is very catered to Indian taste. It’s going to take a while for delta to catch up to that in the eyes on Indian expats. Despite delta being the largest carrier in jfk and lga, they are not dominant here by any means. And people on the nyc to Indian market have really embraced me3 as the carrier of choice.

If you think dl mandarin content is so substantial, then why does Chinese expat I know all prefer to fly Chinese carriers?

tphuang wrote:

If you think dl mandarin content is so substantial, then why does Chinese expat I know all prefer to fly Chinese carriers?

Perhaps they are basing their decision on something other than the number of movies on board in their preferred language? Price, for instance?

LAX772LR wrote:

vadodara wrote:

DL has had trouble sustaining flights from non-DL hubs to CDG.

PIT, RDU, and BOS might disagree... and DL just decided to start IND-CDG, so they can't be that gun-shy.

Well they just downgraded CDG-IND from 4 weekly to 3 weekly a sure indicator for the winter that it's not performing as well as expected.

klm617 wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

vadodara wrote:

DL has had trouble sustaining flights from non-DL hubs to CDG.

PIT, RDU, and BOS might disagree... and DL just decided to start IND-CDG, so they can't be that gun-shy.

Well they just downgraded CDG-IND from 4 weekly to 3 weekly a sure indicator for the winter that it's not performing as well as expected.

Probably should do your homework before you run around making wild claims like that:
https://www.ibj.com/articles/68571-term ... ndy-market

Spiderguy252 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

If you think dl mandarin content is so substantial, then why does Chinese expat I know all prefer to fly Chinese carriers?

Perhaps they are basing their decision on something other than the number of movies on board in their preferred language? Price, for instance?

When I say prefer I mean when prices, ff program and schedule is comparable.

tphuang wrote:

FlyHappy wrote:

tphuang wrote:

[And since we are talking about India here, how about a complete selection of Indian movie/music content like EK has and great selection of Indian meals.

I can personally attest to seeing substantial Mandarin and Hindi content on DL IFE on a "regional" 737, which flew to the Caribbean. This was two months ago.
Obviously, this aircraft won't be flying anywhere near the sub-continent.

Delta has matured post-merger into a respectable International class airline, and I believe they have Northwest to thank for some of that.
Still, it will take a full generation until non-US pax to reverse some dated perceptions.

There is what you think is substantial vs what is on ek. Ek has a lot of experience with Indian market and the product they have really is very catered to Indian taste. It’s going to take a while for delta to catch up to that in the eyes on Indian expats. Despite delta being the largest carrier in jfk and lga, they are not dominant here by any means. And people on the nyc to Indian market have really embraced me3 as the carrier of choice.

If you think dl mandarin content is so substantial, then why does Chinese expat I know all prefer to fly Chinese carriers?

people on the nyc to indian market have not completely embraced the ME3 as their carrier of choice. Most coach passengers gets better deals on KU & AI. KU was struggling with their old birds but now, even with the 1 stop on return, KU carries a good amount of passengers. In a previous response it was mentioned about the US-UK family base/ties and the reason for EU stopover. But ME3 actually got the biggest gain from Middle-east stopover due to the Indian bound passengers family/business ties in that region. UA's success was consistency against the ME3, AI & KU. Consistency will prove that ATL-DEL & JFK-BOM are the best options for DL to enter Indian market as long as it can offer/commit onward connections. Also in NYC region its ME4 not ME3. (EK, EY, QR & KU)

LAX772LR wrote:

vadodara wrote:

DL has had trouble sustaining flights from non-DL hubs to CDG.

PIT, RDU, and BOS might disagree... and DL just decided to start IND-CDG, so they can't be that gun-shy.

Let em have a go! JFK-DEL non-stop!

FlyHappy wrote:

I can personally attest to seeing substantial Mandarin and Hindi content on DL IFE on a "regional" 737, which flew to the Caribbean. This was two months ago.
Obviously, this aircraft won't be flying anywhere near the sub-continent.

tphuang wrote:

There is what you think is substantial vs what is on ek.

I did not know DL and EK were having a "dick-size" contest.

tphuang wrote:

If you think dl mandarin content is so substantial, then why does Chinese expat I know all prefer to fly Chinese carriers?

I also didn't know that people largely chose their carriers based amount of IFE content in their native languages.
I figured it was primarily due to cost, timing, convenience.

Take it for what its worth, which might be nothing at all to you, but DL puts alot of foreign language content on their IFE, even on aircraft that don't serve those native areas. Maybe the licensing doesn't cost them more? Maybe it does, and it demonstrates a level of awareness about non-anglophone pax?

but obviously, you'll find fault with them no matter what, so something as trivial what the amount of Hindi/Mandarin content doesn't matter.

Midwestindy wrote:

klm617 wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

PIT, RDU, and BOS might disagree... and DL just decided to start IND-CDG, so they can't be that gun-shy.

Well they just downgraded CDG-IND from 4 weekly to 3 weekly a sure indicator for the winter that it's not performing as well as expected.

Probably should do your homework before you run around making wild claims like that:
https://www.ibj.com/articles/68571-term ... ndy-market

You HONESTLY think this person/caricature does research before making routinely nonsensical comments?

Bastian did quite the roadshow today in Los Angeles while making a few appearances on national news as well. He made it pretty clear upon being asked that the BOM nonstop service would come from either JFK or ATL.

"We've announced it's going to be Mumbai, although we haven't announced that it's going to be from New York. Atlanta has a shot at it as well."

winginit wrote:

Bastian did quite the roadshow today in Los Angeles while making a few appearances on national news as well. He made it pretty clear upon being asked that the BOM nonstop service would come from either JFK or ATL.

"We've announced it's going to be Mumbai, although we haven't announced that it's going to be from New York. Atlanta has a shot at it as well."

Dont let DTW hear that

winginit wrote:

Bastian did quite the roadshow today in Los Angeles while making a few appearances on national news as well. He made it pretty clear upon being asked that the BOM nonstop service would come from either JFK or ATL.

"We've announced it's going to be Mumbai, although we haven't announced that it's going to be from New York. Atlanta has a shot at it as well."

Which begs the question: why announce a route when it is in such a preliminary stage that only one end of the spoke is known!?

LAX772LR wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Well they just downgraded CDG-IND from 4 weekly to 3 weekly a sure indicator for the winter that it's not performing as well as expected.

Probably should do your homework before you run around making wild claims like that:
https://www.ibj.com/articles/68571-term ... ndy-market

You HONESTLY think this person/caricature does research before making routinely nonsensical comments?

Haha, exactly what I was thinking.

klm617 wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

vadodara wrote:

DL has had trouble sustaining flights from non-DL hubs to CDG.

PIT, RDU, and BOS might disagree... and DL just decided to start IND-CDG, so they can't be that gun-shy.

Well they just downgraded CDG-IND from 4 weekly to 3 weekly a sure indicator for the winter that it's not performing as well as expected.

The flight is only 3x weekly in Jan-Feb. That is NATURALLY the dead months of travel. How can a flight do bad in the winter when it hasn't even ran yet?!? The fact is the frequency is low because they naturally do that when the market isn't 100 percent proven. So, do your research before making narcissistic claims.... Don't judge a route by the frequencies until it had a chance to run those frequencies first. The route is doing fine and Delta would rather run low freq. first than high freq. first. Start small, then go big when the market proves itself. So, don't take a normality and twist it into something that is bad....

Spiderguy252 wrote:

Which begs the question: why announce a route when it is in such a preliminary stage that only one end of the spoke is known!?

Flip the question:
Why NOT announce it now?

They gain plenty of free advertisement, investor confidence, and customer goodwill; they lose... nothing.

The competition will be what the competition will be-- but for now, it's not like competitors can launch any all-out assault, when no gateway/timings/start date has even been revealed.

LAX772LR wrote:

AntonioMartin wrote:

Now, we are talking about Atlanta-Mumbai non-stop, on a two-holer!!

...this is nothing remotely new.

ATL-BOM was already done nonstop with a twinjet, a decade ago.
https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/sto ... ily86.html

This would just be a resumption.

I know, I know...

Only I just remembered it

Ed is a great communicator, I love his command of the English language. Sharp Dude!

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/delta-c ... 00115.html

LAX772LR wrote:

Spiderguy252 wrote:

Which begs the question: why announce a route when it is in such a preliminary stage that only one end of the spoke is known!?

Flip the question:
Why NOT announce it now?

They gain plenty of free advertisement, investor confidence, and customer goodwill; they lose... nothing.

The competition will be what the competition will be-- but for now, it's not like competitors can launch any all-out assault, when no gateway/timings/start date has even been revealed.

I think they announced the flight without the India end to get the publicity and mark their ground that it was coming. My guess is they will work with 9W on how they divide up the no stops. Hence the delay. Also I think DL and 9W do not have a JV yet. Just 9W with AF, KL, VS on the India-EU traffic. So maybe DL/9W will announce their JV (and maybe it will be merged with the AF/KL/VS deals). But who knows.

BTW DL/9W need to announce reciprocal FF status recognition. I mean if GOL can recognize DL elites on domestic Brazil flights, surely 9W/DL can recognize each other's elites (I mean seat selection, priority boarding, lounges etc).

If DL announces JFK-BOM, I think AI's EWR-LHR-AMD flight is toast. AI will keep LHR-AMD but lose the EWR tag on.

Completely agree with this. Delta was disingenuous to credit their anti-ME3 effort as having any bearing on USA-India economics.

Delta said its planned return to India followed agreements between the US and the governments of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Qatar to address the issue of subsidies being provided to their state-owned carriers.

But while Delta’s CEO affirmed that such arrangements have “made this new service [to Mumbai] possible”, it is likely that shifting market dynamics, the airline’s fleet changes, and a desire to forge a closer alliance with codeshare partner Jet Airways provide more compelling reasons for the service resumption.

Although yields will remain under pressure, the airline can expect that more fuel-efficient aircraft, improved business traveller proposition, and its ties with Jet Airways will give it a better chance of success this time around.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... to-india-/

I said this immediately in the announcement thread. The deal that was done did nothing to change the economic of USA-India, and frankly LH was trashing USA-India fares long before the ME3 were significant.

So basically, they created a huge fuss over a non-issue with the MEB3, and now, to save their faces, they're being forced to get back into a route that will probably lose them $$$ from the get-go? Talk about making a bed of nails...

Deleted

enilria wrote:

I said this immediately in the announcement thread. The deal that was done did nothing to change the economic of USA-India, and frankly LH was trashing USA-India fares long before the ME3 were significant.

This is 100% true. LH was consistently cheaper than anyone on USA-India in the early 2000's. It was virtually impossible to avoid flying them more often than not. I don't particularly like LH and hated FRA for connections, but being more price sensitive in those days as I was, I flew them 4 straight times to India between 2000 and 2004. They weren't just cheaper, they were generally MUCH cheaper.

globetrotter94 wrote:

and now, to save their faces, they're being forced to get back into a route

No one and nothing is "forcing" them to do anything.

And multi-billion dollar public corporations generally don't waste multi-million dollar assets, on "saving face".... shareholders tend to get just a bitttt antsy at such.

winginit wrote:

Bastian did quite the roadshow today in Los Angeles while making a few appearances on national news as well. He made it pretty clear upon being asked that the BOM nonstop service would come from either JFK or ATL.

"We've announced it's going to be Mumbai, although we haven't announced that it's going to be from New York. Atlanta has a shot at it as well."

Are there still ATL incentives for any carrier launching direct flights to India? I remember seeing them a few years ago - they were not limited to India, but rather various regions including India and would result in a 2 year waiver of landing fees: https://www.usatoday.com/story/todayint ... s/8044785/

One potential reason DL hasn't announced JFK versus ATL yet is because they may be trying to negotiate for the greatest incentives possible.

globetrotter94 wrote:

So basically, they created a huge fuss over a non-issue with the MEB3, and now, to save their faces, they're being forced to get back into a route that will probably lose them $$$ from the get-go? Talk about making a bed of nails...

No one is forcing DL to do anything. The ME3 thing is just them making a point. Right or wrong it is just theatrics. Anyway, DL clearly feels India is an important market or they wouldn’t have entered into such a deep partnership with 9W. TK, ME3, China, HK all want more access to India. The ME3 have built their business on India. If the US3 want to compete against the ME3, they need to be strong in India. India is a big market room for cheap one stops and also premium nonstops. It was only a matter of time that DL/9W announced a nonstop. For how long did people think that even the premium part of the Indian market wanted the India-EU/ME-USA routings.

LAX772LR wrote:

globetrotter94 wrote:

and now, to save their faces, they're being forced to get back into a route

No one and nothing is "forcing" them to do anything.

And multi-billion dollar public corporations generally don't waste multi-million dollar assets, on "saving face".... shareholders tend to get just a bitttt antsy at such.

Really what do you call MSP-KEF and MSP-HND

klm617 wrote:

Really what do you call MSP-KEF and MSP-HND

Apparently, "successful flights".

jordanh wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Really what do you call MSP-KEF and MSP-HND

Apparently, "successful flights".

MSP can support 3 flights a day to KEF during the summer, and 1 to HND. You’re grasping at straws now.

lavalampluva wrote:

jordanh wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Really what do you call MSP-KEF and MSP-HND

Apparently, "successful flights".

MSP can support 3 flights a day to KEF during the summer, and 1 to HND. You’re grasping at straws now.

You mean the flights are empty? Show us some facts.