iyerhari wrote:

tphuang wrote:

The problem with BOS, IAD, ORD, DFX, LAX, SFO is that EK serves all of these places. For all non-BOM destination, they would be able to get to get there on one connections. And for BOM, they have 5 flights from DXB, which allows much better arrival timing.

Any the crowd that doesn't care about the arrival timing, which is actually a pretty large segment of VFR traffic, is very low yielding.

But as I said, DL is in China even though that's surely a huge loss leader for them. India should be no different.

I do not know about China but India has four different types of passenger categories:
1. Direct PTP - JFK to BOM - perfect - slam dunk and no brainer. This applies to BOM and vicinities such as Pune, Nagpur etc. who many times prefer to use BOM
2. On-hop connection to BOM within the US - BOS-JFK-BOM - it depends and have known people who also take the UA EWR option to BOM/DEL.
3. On-hop connection from JFK to other place besides BOM - such as JFK-BOM-HYD - may not be ideal for DL and i am just saying based on my experience and depends on how the connection experience is.
4. Multi-hop connection to BOM and onwards - e.g. BOS-JFK-BOM-HYD - I think this is a longshot and i do not think there maybe a lot of folks here.

As someone who travels to India, particularly Pune often from Indianapolis, I am number 4 in that. I am Star Alliance Gold through United. When I book tickets, I will not even look at non-Star Alliance airlines even if it means an extra stop.

I think a lot of people are forgetting loyalty. Sure, not all passengers care about which airline they are traveling on but are just looking for the cheapest fares, there are quite a few people, including me, who are picky that way.

Having AI in Star has been a big boon for me when it comes to domestic flights in India. I look at LH/LX/UA/AI only for all my travels. The benefits (like miles, lounges, better seats, better treatment, priority lines, better boarding groups for more overhead space, more flexibility with bookings, more upgrade chances, etc.) far outweigh the minor price difference.

Having Delta enter the market is great news for me only because that will probably mean softening of fares on the AI and UA nonstops. My itinerary usually is either PNQ-DEL-FRA/MUC/ZRH-EWR/IAD/ORD-IND or from BOM to the US either on the nonstops or via Europe.

tphuang wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

tphuang wrote:

How is Delta product going to beat EK A380?

AI is *A carrier and already has complementary flights with UA, why would it provide feed for a skyteam carrier? Vistara now has a really close working relationship with EK feeding many secondary Indian cities from DXB, why would it jeopardize that to help out DL? Just think about the amount of feed EK provides to Vistara right now vs what 1 DL flight can provide.

I don't fly airlines which treat their employees like ..., not that US/EU carriers are saints.

"UA wouldn't touch AI" with a 10-foot pole, this statement has been repeated several times a.net. UA/LH put their eggs in 9W basket long before DL. DL used to offer DTW-JFK feed to AI.

DL mostly makes business decisions based on revenue. If Vistara cannot ramp-up its Mumbai network, AI interlining is the prudent way to go. In the long run, DL/VS-AI partnership at LHR could be developed similar to SkyTeam-9W at AMS. Just a hypothesis.

BTW, SkyTeam already started offering Vistara connections at DEL.

JFK-BOM PDEW is 500, and there are more than 10 options including every state-owned carrier. if DL wants to fill the plane it needs partner feed on India side.

That's your prerogative. I can tell you that most Indian expats I know fly EK exclusively. And aside from that, there are also a lot of QR supporters. DL has a huge uphill battle to try winning over that crowd. This is definitely not a low yielding I'm talking about here.

I would agree they need feeds. But just to assume that AI will help them or Vistara would help them given those airlines existing alliances is a lot of presumptions. I'm sure UA would strongly encourage AI not to interline with DL at BOM. We will have to see what they do.

FSDan wrote:

I do have to admit I was wrong that DL would give up on this route without a strong 9W on the other end. They must see the void in long haul service at BOM post-9W along with the promise of a growing market and a connection between two financial capitols as outweighing the lack of connecting traffic beyond BOM (or they have plans we don't know yet to provide these connections).

I suppose at the end of the day the traffic DL is really hoping to capture is the high value O&D business traffic between NYC and BOM, which is why they picked JFK and not ATL for this route. They'll be able to provide connections from medium and large cities all across the U.S. that's destined for BOM, so hopefully they'll be able to fill up the flight.

I think they picked JFK because there is simply a lot more demand in new york. And most people on east coast would have to backtrack to get to ATL compared to JFK. Think about where the largest Indian communities are. In every sense, JFK is a better option than ATL. But that's also why JFK has a lot more competition.

Forget perspective but let's look at facts. First rule of marketing, never market to your own world view. The fact that every expat Indian you knows flies EK exclusivity should tell you right away that your circle is not reflective of the market. DL/AF/KL/VS were pushing tons of traffic between the US and India via the EU. That is a fact. I mean Jet was flying multiple 77W to the EU for gods sake. So while people do fly EK, that is just one side. With 9W gone, DL flyers just lost tons of option to India (and especially BOM). Delta has tons of data given the 9W partnership. As far as business travelers wanting to try fancy international carriers, maybe. But the flip side is there are many many elites who will not leave there alliance for one flights because of all the MQMs you earn and 75,000 miles (I am one of them).

Worldranger - with all due respect to your Uber driver, I do not think DL is targeting that crowd. They fly airlines like KU. DL is targeting (1) US based J class corp travelers who are Skyteam elites. This crowd's companies pay $6-12K for tickets to India, (2) US based DL elites who want to fly Premium Y and Y to India. This crowd wants the MQMs perks when flying such a long flight and pays a premium. Now before people say Indian VFR is all bottom barrel - Indian Americans have the highest average income of any ethnic group in the US. They also have the highest graduate degree % - so they are a lot professionals. This upper middle class portion of the VFR group is looking for frills and has the money to pay for it PLUS is very entrenched with US based FF programs - (side note: many Indians I grew up with were Pan Am World Pass all the way). (3) India origin business and Y flyers. Without Jet, DL will have a fight here. At least they offer a nonstop to JFK (which is a big destination) and they will discount tickets originating in India rather than the US (same thing DL does with Europe originating tickets over JFK originating). DL is at least sending a great product over to India and can offer many connections to smaller cities in the US (which EK struggles with).

People forget how large US-India traffic is and how diverse it is. Also of all the cities in India, BOM has all types of flyers income wise.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Forget perspective but let's look at facts. First rule of marketing, never market to your own world view. The fact that every expat Indian you knows flies EK exclusivity should tell you right away that your circle is not reflective of the market. DL/AF/KL/VS were pushing tons of traffic between the US and India via the EU. That is a fact. I mean Jet was flying multiple 77W to the EU for gods sake. So while people do fly EK, that is just one side. With 9W gone, DL flyers just lost tons of option to India (and especially BOM). Delta has tons of data given the 9W partnership. As far as business travelers wanting to try fancy international carriers, maybe. But the flip side is there are many many elites who will not leave there alliance for one flights because of all the MQMs you earn and 75,000 miles (I am one of them).

Worldranger - with all due respect to your Uber driver, I do not think DL is targeting that crowd. They fly airlines like KU. DL is targeting (1) US based J class corp travelers who are Skyteam elites. This crowd's companies pay $6-12K for tickets to India, (2) US based DL elites who want to fly Premium Y and Y to India. This crowd wants the MQMs perks when flying such a long flight and pays a premium. Now before people say Indian VFR is all bottom barrel - Indian Americans have the highest average income of any ethnic group in the US. They also have the highest graduate degree % - so they are a lot professionals. This upper middle class portion of the VFR group is looking for frills and has the money to pay for it PLUS is very entrenched with US based FF programs - (side note: many Indians I grew up with were Pan Am World Pass all the way). (3) India origin business and Y flyers. Without Jet, DL will have a fight here. At least they offer a nonstop to JFK (which is a big destination) and they will discount tickets originating in India rather than the US (same thing DL does with Europe originating tickets over JFK originating). DL is at least sending a great product over to India and can offer many connections to smaller cities in the US (which EK struggles with).

People forget how large US-India traffic is and how diverse it is. Also of all the cities in India, BOM has all types of flyers income wise.

I'm sure there are plenty of people like yourself who are loyal to Delta and Skyteam, but whether or not that's going to fill up the premium cabin or even coach cabin on a daily basis is a different story. And BOM is only one part of the US to India market. With 9W gone, it's going to be hard for DL to capture US to rest of India traffic. There are reasons why DL hasn't launched this route up until now.

My point about EK is that they capture a significant portion of loyalty in the US to Indian market. Not sure why you want to insist that I believe other carriers don't capture their own portion of the market.

tphuang wrote:

I'm sure there are plenty of people like yourself who are loyal to Delta and Skyteam, but whether or not that's going to fill up the premium cabin or even coach cabin on a daily basis is a different story. And BOM is only one part of the US to India market. With 9W gone, it's going to be hard for DL to capture US to rest of India traffic. There are reasons why DL hasn't launched this route up until now.

My point about EK is that they capture a significant portion of loyalty in the US to Indian market. Not sure why you want to insist that I believe other carriers don't capture their own portion of the market.

There is no doubt that EK has a good and a loyal following. They also do well because they fly to metro, Tier A and B India cities and they do good business. You also have to compare the economies of scale. EK has over 100+ flights each day within India and DL will have ONE. DL is well oiled machine and does a lot of research - it's a price sensitive market for sure but there are also high-end Sky travelers who are the target audience.

I read an article also somewhere that AA also plans to launch India flights from PHL. That will be even more interesting.

iyerhari wrote:

tphuang wrote:

I'm sure there are plenty of people like yourself who are loyal to Delta and Skyteam, but whether or not that's going to fill up the premium cabin or even coach cabin on a daily basis is a different story. And BOM is only one part of the US to India market. With 9W gone, it's going to be hard for DL to capture US to rest of India traffic. There are reasons why DL hasn't launched this route up until now.

My point about EK is that they capture a significant portion of loyalty in the US to Indian market. Not sure why you want to insist that I believe other carriers don't capture their own portion of the market.

There is no doubt that EK has a good and a loyal following. They also do well because they fly to metro, Tier A and B India cities and they do good business. You also have to compare the economies of scale. EK has over 100+ flights each day within India and DL will have ONE. DL is well oiled machine and does a lot of research - it's a price sensitive market for sure but there are also high-end Sky travelers who are the target audience.

I read an article also somewhere that AA also plans to launch India flights from PHL. That will be even more interesting.

Agreed. I would just add the ones that aren’t big delta credit card spenders or elites (insert and us airlime), really will fly an airline that is cheapest. Only exception are those going to/in certain smaller indian cities that don’t have options. But delta is not going after them. Many airlines in the us wont even interline with EK. So delta has their elites, US based J travelers and those from/going to smaller us towns as their core market. They won’t rely on too many connections in india. Btw I wonder how many Indians in America have status on EK. If the number is low, then EK gets cheap seat people (at least to BOM and DEL that have options).

CaliguyNYC wrote:

iyerhari wrote:

tphuang wrote:

I'm sure there are plenty of people like yourself who are loyal to Delta and Skyteam, but whether or not that's going to fill up the premium cabin or even coach cabin on a daily basis is a different story. And BOM is only one part of the US to India market. With 9W gone, it's going to be hard for DL to capture US to rest of India traffic. There are reasons why DL hasn't launched this route up until now.

My point about EK is that they capture a significant portion of loyalty in the US to Indian market. Not sure why you want to insist that I believe other carriers don't capture their own portion of the market.

There is no doubt that EK has a good and a loyal following. They also do well because they fly to metro, Tier A and B India cities and they do good business. You also have to compare the economies of scale. EK has over 100+ flights each day within India and DL will have ONE. DL is well oiled machine and does a lot of research - it's a price sensitive market for sure but there are also high-end Sky travelers who are the target audience.

I read an article also somewhere that AA also plans to launch India flights from PHL. That will be even more interesting.

Agreed. I would just add the ones that aren’t big delta credit card spenders or elites (insert and us airlime), really will fly an airline that is cheapest. Only exception are those going to/in certain smaller indian cities that don’t have options. But delta is not going after them. Many airlines in the us wont even interline with EK. So delta has their elites, US based J travelers and those from/going to smaller us towns as their core market. They won’t rely on too many connections in india. Btw I wonder how many Indians in America have status on EK. If the number is low, then EK gets cheap seat people (at least to BOM and DEL that have options).

Remember that B6 is a partner of EK and you can earn quite a bit of TrueBlue miles with EK flights if traveling in J. I don't see why they need to interline with anyone else when B6 is the second largest airline at JFK. And they are a transfer partner of several mileage programs. EK is not DY. They are getting a lot of people who are not necessarily hunting for the cheapest fares.

enilria wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

Official

Nonstop to Mumbai: New Delta service from New York to begin Dec. 22
https://news.delta.com/nonstop-mumbai-n ... gin-dec-22

=

777LR

JFK-BOM 0915-2250
BOM-JFK 0050-0635

Correct me if wrong, but that schedule will connect to little in JFK. Strange choice.

Does not have connections per say as Queens & Nassau Counties are 2 of the largest dispora of Indian nationals in the US. Same for Newark with Jersey County next to it. Lots of O&D.

tphuang wrote:

Remember that B6 is a partner of EK and you can earn quite a bit of TrueBlue miles with EK flights if traveling in J. I don't see why they need to interline with anyone else when B6 is the second largest airline at JFK. And they are a transfer partner of several mileage programs. EK is not DY. They are getting a lot of people who are not necessarily hunting for the cheapest fares.

While you are correct in saying Skywards miles can be earned and spent thru other means, even EK started clamping down on reward travel and free cabin upgrades. EK's promos are very attractive to premium cabin bargain hunters.

In the end, it is EK(and others) promo J/F fares (vs) DL's Non-stop + SkyMiles loyalty + service quality will be decisive factors on NYC-BOM O&D market.

Analyzing the impact on transit traffic is too difficult, too many variables. A US-India non-stop is still a two-stop for most unserved/underserved markets

dmstorm22 wrote:

enilria wrote:

DeltaB717 wrote:

If I told you it was JFK2115-2250BOM, that'd make more sense, no!?

The time isn't 0915, it's 2115? That does make quite a bit of difference, although the early morning JFK arrival is still poor for much connectivity.

Why is the early AM arrival bad for ex-JFK connections? Doesn't DL have a early morning rush out of JFK to regional destinations - or are most from LGA?

UA has very similar times into EWR and it works quite well.

Delta has a bank there, but it's almost all Caribbean and Florida. Keep in mind the way that hubs is structured. The sun markets go out in the morning and come back in the evening and are supported by connections on each end. The Atlantic comes in throughout the afternoon and is bracketed by feed markets. The structure doesn't work well for this schedule. Yes there are connections, but the ones to Florida and Latin are fairly useless in terms of revenue quality, so they will be left with a handful of mostly hubs that roundtrip connect that will generate any real revenue. IMHO the route cannot come close to profitability with that schedule. They would need to fill probably 60% of the flight with local traffic and while there is a premium market from NYC, the coach market is totally trashed. So, I have to think ATL would have been better. They'd still have TK and QR to deal with, but they would have a lot of connect markets without ME3 pricing to prop up yield as much as possible. They are completely leaning here on being able to get a revenue premium for the front cabin by offering a non-stop. I don't think the Indian carriers are a problem, but I'm not sure they are strong enough in NYC to do that when coupled with the product on the ME3 they compete with. I don't see the economic working. It'll certainly be full, however.

enilria wrote:

dmstorm22 wrote:

enilria wrote:

The time isn't 0915, it's 2115? That does make quite a bit of difference, although the early morning JFK arrival is still poor for much connectivity.

Why is the early AM arrival bad for ex-JFK connections? Doesn't DL have a early morning rush out of JFK to regional destinations - or are most from LGA?

UA has very similar times into EWR and it works quite well.

Delta has a bank there, but it's almost all Caribbean and Florida. Keep in mind the way that hubs is structured. The sun markets go out in the morning and come back in the evening and are supported by connections on each end. The Atlantic comes in throughout the afternoon and is bracketed by feed markets. The structure doesn't work well for this schedule. Yes there are connections, but the ones to Florida and Latin are fairly useless in terms of revenue quality, so they will be left with a handful of mostly hubs that roundtrip connect that will generate any real revenue. IMHO the route cannot come close to profitability with that schedule. They would need to fill probably 60% of the flight with local traffic and while there is a premium market from NYC, the coach market is totally trashed. So, I have to think ATL would have been better. They'd still have TK and QR to deal with, but they would have a lot of connect markets without ME3 pricing to prop up yield as much as possible. They are completely leaning here on being able to get a revenue premium for the front cabin by offering a non-stop. I don't think the Indian carriers are a problem, but I'm not sure they are strong enough in NYC to do that when coupled with the product on the ME3 they compete with. I don't see the economic working. It'll certainly be full, however.

Interesting. I have little knowledge of the DL routes and timings from JFK so this is helpful.

For UA at EWR, they have a massive morning departure and evening arrival bank which helps feed their non-stops, though those I'm sure do well O&D.

I've taken the flight twice to BOM from EWR, and each time paid a premium (one Y, on J) from the 1-stops. From when I've spot checked, from NY, AI is usually able to price Y $100-200 above ME3, and then UA the same above AI. This is purely anecdotal of course.

Regarding morning feed for the BOM-JFK leg, FSDan already established the following.

FSDan wrote:

Based on this summer's schedule, there are departures between 8am and 10am to BOS, BWI, DCA, RDU, ATL, MCO, MIA, DTW, ORD, DFW, AUS, DEN, SAN, LAX, SFO, SEA, MEX, and others.

Obviously that's not as extensive a list as DL would get in ATL, and one or two of these may get dropped for the winter schedule, but it's still a decent bank for any connecting India-US traffic DL may get. It also bears repeating that the decision to go with JFK over ATL was based on potential O&D, which is important for making any USA-India route work today.

enilria wrote:

Delta has a bank there, but it's almost all Caribbean and Florida. Keep in mind the way that hubs is structured. The sun markets go out in the morning and come back in the evening and are supported by connections on each end. The Atlantic comes in throughout the afternoon and is bracketed by feed markets. The structure doesn't work well for this schedule. Yes there are connections, but the ones to Florida and Latin are fairly useless in terms of revenue quality, so they will be left with a handful of mostly hubs that roundtrip connect that will generate any real revenue.

Nope...the current Jan 2020 prelim schedule has morning JFK departures to over 30 domestic US cities (including over 25 non-Florida cities!)...here's the list between 0800 and 1000 (as of now):

ORD 0805
CLE 0805
MIA 0805
MCO 0805
TPA 0805
PBI 0805
FLL 0805
MSY 0805
DEN 0805
SAN 0805
DFW 0805
BNA 0808
JAX 0810
BUF 0815
SJC 0815
PHX 0815
SFO 0815
LAX 0815
CHS 0823
DCA 0830
ATL 0830
RDU 0830
ORF 0841
SAV 0847
BWI 0900
IAD 0900
BOS 0910
AUS 0915
DTW 0926
RIC 0940
CMH 0949
ROC 0940

There are a few others that are outside of the MCT of 1:25 including SEA, SLC, CLT and PIT based on a 0630 arrival but they still have time to adjust those schedules. Also, there are RSW and SYR both of which are past 10am, not too convenient, but still do-able.

panamair wrote:

enilria wrote:

Delta has a bank there, but it's almost all Caribbean and Florida. Keep in mind the way that hubs is structured. The sun markets go out in the morning and come back in the evening and are supported by connections on each end. The Atlantic comes in throughout the afternoon and is bracketed by feed markets. The structure doesn't work well for this schedule. Yes there are connections, but the ones to Florida and Latin are fairly useless in terms of revenue quality, so they will be left with a handful of mostly hubs that roundtrip connect that will generate any real revenue.

Nope...the current Jan 2020 prelim schedule has morning JFK departures to over 30 domestic US cities (including over 25 non-Florida cities!)...here's the list between 0800 and 1000 (as of now):

ORD 0805
CLE 0805
MIA 0805
MCO 0805
TPA 0805
PBI 0805
FLL 0805
MSY 0805
DEN 0805
SAN 0805
DFW 0805
BNA 0808
JAX 0810
BUF 0815
SJC 0815
PHX 0815
SFO 0815
LAX 0815
CHS 0823
DCA 0830
ATL 0830
RDU 0830
ORF 0841
SAV 0847
BWI 0900
IAD 0900
BOS 0910
AUS 0915
DTW 0926
RIC 0940
CMH 0949
ROC 0940

There are a few others that are outside of the MCT of 1:25 including SEA, SLC, CLT and PIT based on a 0630 arrival but they still have time to adjust those schedules. Also, there are RSW and SYR both of which are past 10am, not too convenient, but still do-able.

Furthermore, it's worth noting that the above list of departures covers 19 out of the top 25 metro areas with the largest Indian American populations outside of NYC (which is obviously also covered by this flight). ATL would certainly offer connections to more cities, but most of them that aren't already covered by JFK's connections have insignificant travel to BOM.

I believe that the primary driver for this flight is premium nonstop passengers - business class and premium economy. Connections are secondary for this flight. As has been mentioned before, once a connection is inserted, there are several airlines which can do one stop to the top ten US cities, and one stop to major Indian cities as well. Rather, the proper comparison should be the QF PER to LHR flight; where there was a lot of angst on this forum about its survivability verses the plethora of one stops from Australia; but that flight is running with load factors in the mid 90s and good yields to boot. I think that is what Delta is trying to replicate, with connections a distant second consideration.

panamair wrote:

enilria wrote:

Delta has a bank there, but it's almost all Caribbean and Florida. Keep in mind the way that hubs is structured. The sun markets go out in the morning and come back in the evening and are supported by connections on each end. The Atlantic comes in throughout the afternoon and is bracketed by feed markets. The structure doesn't work well for this schedule. Yes there are connections, but the ones to Florida and Latin are fairly useless in terms of revenue quality, so they will be left with a handful of mostly hubs that roundtrip connect that will generate any real revenue.

Nope...the current Jan 2020 prelim schedule has morning JFK departures to over 30 domestic US cities (including over 25 non-Florida cities!)...here's the list between 0800 and 1000 (as of now):

ORD 0805
CLE 0805
MIA 0805
MCO 0805
TPA 0805
PBI 0805
FLL 0805
MSY 0805
DEN 0805
SAN 0805
DFW 0805
BNA 0808
JAX 0810
BUF 0815
SJC 0815
PHX 0815
SFO 0815
LAX 0815
CHS 0823
DCA 0830
ATL 0830
RDU 0830
ORF 0841
SAV 0847
BWI 0900
IAD 0900
BOS 0910
AUS 0915
DTW 0926
RIC 0940
CMH 0949
ROC 0940

There are a few others that are outside of the MCT of 1:25 including SEA, SLC, CLT and PIT based on a 0630 arrival but they still have time to adjust those schedules. Also, there are RSW and SYR both of which are past 10am, not too convenient, but still do-able.

Except that the Jan 2020 schedule isn't real and we all know it. Here's what would connect roundtrip within 3 hours as of today. Yes, there are a few good yield markets, but it is a pretty short list. They will probably get decent yields from ATL despite the ME3 because of market loyalty, probably somewhat BOS too.

ATL (ME3 Fares)
SFO (ME3 Fares)
LAX (ME3 Fares)
BOS (ME3 Fares)
DCA
DTW
RDU
BUF
ROC
ORF
PDX
PHX
MIA (ME3 Fares)
TPA

These are junk yield IMHO.
LAS
MCO (ME3 Fares)
FLL (ME3 Fares)
SXM
AUA
CUN
MBJ

Delta's JAN 2020 schedule shows an increase of 12 RTs YOY. They do that every year and it gets cutback as they get closer. They've got 106,000 more seats for the month loaded YOY as well. That won't stick. In fact, domestic systemwide they've got 9.4% more seats loaded YOY and that is way above Wall Street guidance, so we know that's just their usual over-published long term schedule.

Bottom line, it will be full. Fare is going to be too low to make money IMHO. That is after all why they left in the first place.

Brickell305 wrote:

enilria wrote:

panamair wrote:

Nope...the current Jan 2020 prelim schedule has morning JFK departures to over 30 domestic US cities (including over 25 non-Florida cities!)...here's the list between 0800 and 1000 (as of now):

ORD 0805
CLE 0805
MIA 0805
MCO 0805
TPA 0805
PBI 0805
FLL 0805
MSY 0805
DEN 0805
SAN 0805
DFW 0805
BNA 0808
JAX 0810
BUF 0815
SJC 0815
PHX 0815
SFO 0815
LAX 0815
CHS 0823
DCA 0830
ATL 0830
RDU 0830
ORF 0841
SAV 0847
BWI 0900
IAD 0900
BOS 0910
AUS 0915
DTW 0926
RIC 0940
CMH 0949
ROC 0940

There are a few others that are outside of the MCT of 1:25 including SEA, SLC, CLT and PIT based on a 0630 arrival but they still have time to adjust those schedules. Also, there are RSW and SYR both of which are past 10am, not too convenient, but still do-able.

Except that the Jan 2020 schedule isn't real and we all know it. Here's what would connect roundtrip within 3 hours as of today. Yes, there are a few good yield markets, but it is a pretty short list. They will probably get decent yields from ATL despite the ME3 because of market loyalty, probably somewhat BOS too.

ATL (ME3 Fares)
SFO (ME3 Fares)
LAX (ME3 Fares)
BOS (ME3 Fares)
DCA
DTW
RDU
BUF
ROC
ORF
PDX
PHX
MIA
TPA

These are junk yield IMHO.
LAS
MCO (ME3 Fares)
FLL (ME3 Fares)
SXM
AUA
CUN
MBJ

Delta's JAN 2020 schedule shows an increase of 12 RTs YOY. They do that every year and it gets cutback as they get closer. They've got 106,000 more seats for the month loaded YOY as well. That won't stick.

Just noting that MIA also has an ME3 presence (QR) and DCA fares would also likely be affected by ME3 presence at IAD.

I fixed MIA. Was thinking of EK at FLL. I think they would still get a premium at DCA.

iyerhari wrote:

DL is a solid carrier and has a good reputation in India.

On what basis? When was the last time they were even in India?

Spiderguy252 wrote:

iyerhari wrote:

DL is a solid carrier and has a good reputation in India.

On what basis? When was the last time they were even in India?

Please read the article - https://www.travelcodex.com/the-challen ... -figures2/

There is some interesting info on the history of carriers to and from India. The US POS to BOM may be still good. How well it is in BOM to US - I do not know.

Spiderguy252 wrote:

iyerhari wrote:

DL is a solid carrier and has a good reputation in India.

On what basis? When was the last time they were even in India?

They have a fantastic reputation in BOM.

I'am a skyteam medallion member and used AF (and also NW/KL back in those days) out of BOM. There's plenty of demand for DL - the last few flights to ATL were full. DL will do very good on this route - they must have gotten some corporate contracts before announcing. Nobody's gonna start a ULH route knowing they will lose money

Congrats to DL, BOM and JFK. Had a feeling it would be JFK, this thread was a roller coaster to say the least:) I couldn’t see if the route is daily, but assuming it is how many aircraft is needed to perform the route and where will the aircraft come from? Does DL have slack in the 777L fleet? Thanks

I wonder if the ME3 will retaliate in any way? I mean if DL is really targeting the ME3 in their PRs, then I could envision a retaliatory measure that the ME3 start new service to say DTW or lower fares on all O&Ds where DL is going to get feed for the flight.

hjulicher wrote:

I wonder if the ME3 will retaliate in any way? I mean if DL is really targeting the ME3 in their PRs, then I could envision a retaliatory measure that the ME3 start new service to say DTW or lower fares on all O&Ds where DL is going to get feed for the flight.

I don't think so. EY's last run at sub $800 fares from US to India lead them into super losses and cutting US flights (e.g. from double daily to daily in JFK). I think the nonstop will take the some of the upper layer of traffic that was being pushed from the US to EU and then on to Jet. Without Jet, DL still has to serve its core FF demand. I would also expect KL to increase BOM to daily form AMS once they have aircraft. I think AF needs to upgrade CDG-BOM to a remodeled 777 with lie flat J asap. They need to get the Joon aircraft off the route. Jet was flying a 77W daily to CDG from BOM.

Btw earlier in the thread people mentioned that DL is not strong to Asia from JFK. India, like the ME and TLV, has always been considered an Atlantic route. When DL bought the routes from Pan Am, they got all the India routes coming from EU while UA got the DEL-HKG-SFO route. So starting BOM really says nothing about DL's view of Asia from JFK. It says more about DL's view of the ME/India and competing against the ME3.

tphuang wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

tphuang wrote:

How is Delta product going to beat EK A380?

AI is *A carrier and already has complementary flights with UA, why would it provide feed for a skyteam carrier? Vistara now has a really close working relationship with EK feeding many secondary Indian cities from DXB, why would it jeopardize that to help out DL? Just think about the amount of feed EK provides to Vistara right now vs what 1 DL flight can provide.

I don't fly airlines which treat their employees like ..., not that US/EU carriers are saints.

"UA wouldn't touch AI" with a 10-foot pole, this statement has been repeated several times a.net. UA/LH put their eggs in 9W basket long before DL. DL used to offer DTW-JFK feed to AI.

DL mostly makes business decisions based on revenue. If Vistara cannot ramp-up its Mumbai network, AI interlining is the prudent way to go. In the long run, DL/VS-AI partnership at LHR could be developed similar to SkyTeam-9W at AMS. Just a hypothesis.

BTW, SkyTeam already started offering Vistara connections at DEL.

JFK-BOM PDEW is 500, and there are more than 10 options including every state-owned carrier. if DL wants to fill the plane it needs partner feed on India side.

That's your prerogative. I can tell you that most Indian expats I know fly EK exclusively. And aside from that, there are also a lot of QR supporters. DL has a huge uphill battle to try winning over that crowd. This is definitely not a low yielding I'm talking about here.

I have gotten the same impression that many Indian expats love to fly EK.
Personally, I don't understand it. I have flown EK J several times (and F once) and thought it was just "OK". The seat in the 77W from Boston is nothing special, even a bit cramped if you ask me (I'm 6'2"). The service is good, but so is the service on many other airliners. I also got to try the A380 (DXB-BKK) and though it was just marginally better than the 77W. Sure, you have a private space, but the plane looked extremely ratty, worn and still somewhat cramped.
Now, if you asked me what my favorite J airliner is I would say JAL. Excellent service, great seat. I would place CX at #2.

Dieuwer wrote:

tphuang wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

I don't fly airlines which treat their employees like ..., not that US/EU carriers are saints.

"UA wouldn't touch AI" with a 10-foot pole, this statement has been repeated several times a.net. UA/LH put their eggs in 9W basket long before DL. DL used to offer DTW-JFK feed to AI.

DL mostly makes business decisions based on revenue. If Vistara cannot ramp-up its Mumbai network, AI interlining is the prudent way to go. In the long run, DL/VS-AI partnership at LHR could be developed similar to SkyTeam-9W at AMS. Just a hypothesis.

BTW, SkyTeam already started offering Vistara connections at DEL.

JFK-BOM PDEW is 500, and there are more than 10 options including every state-owned carrier. if DL wants to fill the plane it needs partner feed on India side.

That's your prerogative. I can tell you that most Indian expats I know fly EK exclusively. And aside from that, there are also a lot of QR supporters. DL has a huge uphill battle to try winning over that crowd. This is definitely not a low yielding I'm talking about here.

I have gotten the same impression that many Indian expats love to fly EK.
Personally, I don't understand it. I have flown EK J several times (and F once) and thought it was just "OK". The seat in the 77W from Boston is nothing special, even a bit cramped if you ask me (I'm 6'2"). The service is good, but so is the service on many other airliners. I also got to try the A380 (DXB-BKK) and though it was just marginally better than the 77W. Sure, you have a private space, but the plane looked extremely ratty, worn and still somewhat cramped.
Now, if you asked me what my favorite J airliner is I would say JAL. Excellent service, great seat. I would place CX at #2.

I agree with you on that. The hard product on EK 77W is pretty disappointing actually. CX's 77W and A350 are much better. Fortunately for new yorkers, it's A380 on JFK-DXB/MXP, which is a lot more spacious. I personally prefer the soft service on EK over CX/JL. But that's just me. They really spoiled me. And if I get to go to India once a year on company dime, I would make a habit of transiting at DXB on the way over. They make it super easy for getting out of the airport quickly into tourist areas. It's a lot harder to do a 6 hour layover and see stuff in HKG or Tokyo. I would most likely just spend all my time in one of CX's great lounges if I was transiting at HKG.

Dieuwer wrote:

I have gotten the same impression that many Indian expats love to fly EK.
Personally, I don't understand it. I have flown EK J several times (and F once) and thought it was just "OK". The seat in the 77W from Boston is nothing special, even a bit cramped if you ask me (I'm 6'2"). The service is good, but so is the service on many other airliners. I also got to try the A380 (DXB-BKK) and though it was just marginally better than the 77W. Sure, you have a private space, but the plane looked extremely ratty, worn and still somewhat cramped.
Now, if you asked me what my favorite J airliner is I would say JAL. Excellent service, great seat. I would place CX at #2.

Key reasons IMO:

1. People do not need a visa if they are flying from the US if the h1b/l1 visa has expired on their passport. European carriers require a transit visa which implies a trip to the embassy.
2. India is not just BOM, DEL, HYD, BLR. There are a lot of cities with sizeable population. EK flies pretty much to all the metros, Tier 1 and 2 cities with frequency. Most folks dread the thought of connecting at BOM/DEL. Travel connections has come a long way compared to what it used to be few years back.
3. People tell me although my father decided not to fly them ever - food somehow seems to be better although taste buds can be relative.
4. Huge shopping experience, meeting VFR at Dubai, tourism, etc.
5. Obtaining visa on arrival is very easy vs. Europe which takes endless questions and sometimes feels they intentionally make you look down.

Not everyone is rich or privileged to be able to take J class every time. For many folks, making a small incursion such as Dubai etc. makes them feel good.

iyerhari wrote:

Key reasons IMO:

1. People do not need a visa if they are flying from the US if the h1b/l1 visa has expired on their passport. European carriers require a transit visa which implies a trip to the embassy.

I was under the same impression but as pointed out by DTWLAX a few posts above, now only LHR needs it.

iyerhari wrote:

2. India is not just BOM, DEL, HYD, BLR. There are a lot of cities with sizeable population. EK flies pretty much to all the metros, Tier 1 and 2 cities with frequency. Most folks dread the thought of connecting at BOM/DEL. Travel connections has come a long way compared to what it used to be few years back.
3. People tell me although my father decided not to fly them ever - food somehow seems to be better although taste buds can be relative.
4. Huge shopping experience, meeting VFR at Dubai, tourism, etc.

iyerhari wrote:

Not everyone is rich or privileged to be able to take J class every time. For many folks, making a small incursion such as Dubai etc. makes them feel good.

I cannot emphasize enough how important "2 free bags" are to the average desi. Indians love their luggage. Cannot even explain how many times had to give up on miles so that the missus could fly with 2 free bags!

Recently was looking for tickets for friend for SFO-BOM. Getting somewhere between $1700 - $2000 in June. I would have taken the $1700 deal on LH and got on with my life attributing it to the capacity crunch due to 9W. I even explained it to them. They found a "deal" on something called Eagle India for $1000 SJC-ORD-ZRH-BOM-MUC-DEN-SJC. 30-odd hours each way. To get to BOM!! My friends are DINK couple with individual incomes north of 100K. Indian earning well is absolutely no indicator of how much s/he is willing to shell out for an air ticket.

iyerhari wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

I have gotten the same impression that many Indian expats love to fly EK.
Personally, I don't understand it. I have flown EK J several times (and F once) and thought it was just "OK". The seat in the 77W from Boston is nothing special, even a bit cramped if you ask me (I'm 6'2"). The service is good, but so is the service on many other airliners. I also got to try the A380 (DXB-BKK) and though it was just marginally better than the 77W. Sure, you have a private space, but the plane looked extremely ratty, worn and still somewhat cramped.
Now, if you asked me what my favorite J airliner is I would say JAL. Excellent service, great seat. I would place CX at #2.

Key reasons IMO:

1. People do not need a visa if they are flying from the US if the h1b/l1 visa has expired on their passport. European carriers require a transit visa which implies a trip to the embassy.
2. India is not just BOM, DEL, HYD, BLR. There are a lot of cities with sizeable population. EK flies pretty much to all the metros, Tier 1 and 2 cities with frequency. Most folks dread the thought of connecting at BOM/DEL. Travel connections has come a long way compared to what it used to be few years back.
3. People tell me although my father decided not to fly them ever - food somehow seems to be better although taste buds can be relative.
4. Huge shopping experience, meeting VFR at Dubai, tourism, etc.
5. Obtaining visa on arrival is very easy vs. Europe which takes endless questions and sometimes feels they intentionally make you look down.

Not everyone is rich or privileged to be able to take J class every time. For many folks, making a small incursion such as Dubai etc. makes them feel good.

EK only serves 9 cities in India out of which 2 are in Kerala and all served by QR as well. BOM, DEL and BLR have lots of competition, MAA has LH and BA. EK does not serve that many Tier 2 cities either in India. Only HYD (also has BA), AMD, CCU and COK are their captive markets as other carriers have either limited service or no service. So for smaller cities, many still have to connect at DEL, followed by BOM. So there is a market to all the other smaller cities if DL wants that. Looks like right now they are only looking at BOM O & D traffic.

JFK-BOM is loaded in

hohd wrote:

EK only serves 9 cities in India out of which 2 are in Kerala and all served by QR as well. BOM, DEL and BLR have lots of competition, MAA has LH and BA. EK does not serve that many Tier 2 cities either in India. Only HYD (also has BA), AMD, CCU and COK are their captive markets as other carriers have either limited service or no service. So for smaller cities, many still have to connect at DEL, followed by BOM. So there is a market to all the other smaller cities if DL wants that. Looks like right now they are only looking at BOM O & D traffic.

On JFK-BOM this DL non-stop has to compete with competitors (ME3, CN3, TK,*A) and with is own EU one-stops. All these competitors known to follow Walmart pricing model, offer $1 less than the cheapest competitor.

A couple of anecdotal fare searches for Main Cabin, outbound 1/3/20 return 1/31/20

JFK-BOM DL non-stop(15h/16h20m) $1615, DL one-stop $1299(20h/22h). Cheapest, Swiss one-stop $897(17h/21h)

DL DTW-AMS-BOM $1564 ~19 Hrs each way, DTW-JFK-BOM $3249 ~22 Hrs each way.

dtw2hyd wrote:

hohd wrote:

EK only serves 9 cities in India out of which 2 are in Kerala and all served by QR as well. BOM, DEL and BLR have lots of competition, MAA has LH and BA. EK does not serve that many Tier 2 cities either in India. Only HYD (also has BA), AMD, CCU and COK are their captive markets as other carriers have either limited service or no service. So for smaller cities, many still have to connect at DEL, followed by BOM. So there is a market to all the other smaller cities if DL wants that. Looks like right now they are only looking at BOM O & D traffic.

On JFK-BOM this DL non-stop has to compete with competitors (ME3, CN3, TK,*A) and with is own EU one-stops. All these competitors known to follow Walmart pricing model, offer $1 less than the cheapest competitor.

A couple of anecdotal fare searches for Main Cabin, outbound 1/3/20 return 1/31/20

JFK-BOM DL non-stop(15h/16h20m) $1615, DL one-stop $1299(20h/22h). Cheapest, Swiss one-stop $897(17h/21h)

DL DTW-AMS-BOM $1564 ~19 Hrs each way, DTW-JFK-BOM $3249 ~22 Hrs each way.

Delta economy is always overpriced (compared to the competition)

I don't know if DL's ticket prices will stick, but for now UA on the same day (Sunday December 22) is charging the same amount as DL for a coach seat. By comparison UA on July 14th a Sunday as well is only charging $991 dollars for a one way ticket in coach that represent a $1441 dollar difference for a coach seat. UA's July 14 price is more representative of the normal pricing we see on this route because we compete with the ME3. Although UA has raised their economy prices in December to closely match DL's price in December I'm afraid if the ME3 (EK in particular) do not raise their prices both DL and UA will have no choice but to lower their price. The price DL has quoted for December 22nd is what this flight actually cost. However I don't know many people will choose to DL over EK at that price especially seeing most passengers flying to India in coach have become accustom to fares under $1,000 dollars. Its going to be interesting to watch and see what effect DL has on this market especially as it pertains to passengers in coach. Can DL at 9 abreast charge more and are customers in a price sensitive market willing to pay extra for that additional space?

jayunited wrote:

I don't know if DL's ticket prices will stick, but for now UA on the same day (Sunday December 22) is charging the same amount as DL for a coach seat. By comparison UA on July 14th a Sunday as well is only charging $991 dollars for a one way ticket in coach that represent a $1441 dollar difference for a coach seat. UA's July 14 price is more representative of the normal pricing we see on this route because we compete with the ME3. Although UA has raised their economy prices in December to closely match DL's price in December I'm afraid if the ME3 (EK in particular) do not raise their prices both DL and UA will have no choice but to lower their price. The price DL has quoted for December 22nd is what this flight actually cost. However I don't know many people will choose to DL over EK at that price especially seeing most passengers flying to India in coach have become accustom to fares under $1,000 dollars. Its going to be interesting to watch and see what effect DL has on this market especially as it pertains to passengers in coach. Can DL at 9 abreast charge more and are customers in a price sensitive market willing to pay extra for that additional space?

December 22nd (or any of the days leading up to Christmas) probably aren't teh best days to pick to do a price comparison.

jayunited wrote:

I don't know if DL's ticket prices will stick, but for now UA on the same day (Sunday December 22) is charging the same amount as DL for a coach seat. By comparison UA on July 14th a Sunday as well is only charging $991 dollars for a one way ticket in coach that represent a $1441 dollar difference for a coach seat. UA's July 14 price is more representative of the normal pricing we see on this route because we compete with the ME3. Although UA has raised their economy prices in December to closely match DL's price in December I'm afraid if the ME3 (EK in particular) do not raise their prices both DL and UA will have no choice but to lower their price. The price DL has quoted for December 22nd is what this flight actually cost. However I don't know many people will choose to DL over EK at that price especially seeing most passengers flying to India in coach have become accustom to fares under $1,000 dollars. Its going to be interesting to watch and see what effect DL has on this market especially as it pertains to passengers in coach. Can DL at 9 abreast charge more and are customers in a price sensitive market willing to pay extra for that additional space?

Delta just called to rebook my mom’s Jet connection in July. They haven’t yet called about our dec tickets. I think DL has to reaccomodate so many people from Jet to either AF or KL, that the nonstop will have to take pax. So to a degree the cheap seats are already sold. Christmas usually sells for $2K as you get closer. My guess is DL and UA know the planes will be full (they always are), and without Jet’s widebodies to the EU the planes will be full. So just charge the $2k now

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Delta just called to rebook my mom’s Jet connection in July. They haven’t yet called about our dec tickets. I think DL has to reaccomodate so many people from Jet to either AF or KL, that the nonstop will have to take pax. So to a degree the cheap seats are already sold. Christmas usually sells for $2K as you get closer. My guess is DL and UA know the planes will be full (they always are), and without Jet’s widebodies to the EU the planes will be full. So just charge the $2k now

I get what you and dmstorm22 are saying but I also checked fares up to March 2020 and DL price for coach is over $2,000 dollars Jet Airways effect doesn't extend that far out. Dont' get me wrong I'm not saying this as a negative these are just the current prices DL is quoting on their website. On the other hand I've never seen UA charge over $2,000 dollars for a coach seat to India, (that is not to say its never happened) but it isn't the norm for UA. In fact UA in the months leading up to DL's launch is charging on average less than $1,000 dollars but in the days or week prior to DL's launch UA is matching DL's pricing but only during the month of December. On DL's website even after the holidays are over their price remains north of $2,000 dollars while UA drops their price back down to south of $1,000 dollars. Meanwhile EK in the months leading up to DL's launch is charging $989 dollars, the week prior to DL's launch EK's price is $1,125 dollars, and after the holiday EK drops their price to $898 dollars.
It looks like UA is willing to take a gamble during the 2019 holiday season and match DL's price but quickly reduces the price after the season ends charging about $100 dollars more than EK. UA is not going to take the lead when it comes to price in this market, so I think it will be interesting to see what effect DL has on this market in terms of price point. Can DL actually command a higher price point in spite of the extremely low fares that have flooded this market as a result of the ME3 and EK in particular?

Its all in the customers hands its their choice. For now DL's flights are on sale not only for the holiday season but beyond, and beyond the holiday season UA decided for now it best to retreat and drop the price while DL is holding firm on their price. I think it will be interesting to see if DL will hold firm on price over the long term or will they be forced into reducing their prices to better closely match EK's price for a coach ticket?

Some market data from Routesonline.com



https://www.routesonline.com/track/5HKm ... 0U3qiVTiC/

LAXintl wrote:

Some market data from Routesonline.com



https://www.routesonline.com/track/5HKm ... 0U3qiVTiC/

Glad to see some real numbers. Is the 309K each way or both ways combined? If it is just NYC-BOM O&D one way, that is impressive.

I think DL non-stop would be able to command $600 premium over average Y fares.

DL's future partner at Mumbai should build a domestic outbound bank around 3AM, it would benefit DL and others.

dtw2hyd wrote:

I think DL non-stop would be able to command $600 premium over average Y fares.

I disagree. For Y, Emirates and Qatar hard and soft product beat DL hands down, every time. Whatever premium that DL hopes to get for a "non-stop" flight will be offset by superior product and service on EK and Qatar.

Skymiles loyal members may, however, patronize DL in Y despite a higher price and the inferior service. Business class is a different matter, where those there, value time over a 1-stop.

Indian tourists will never pay a premium for DL economy. In India, flying an international long haul, was never meant to be a bus-like service.

jayunited wrote:

It looks like UA is willing to take a gamble during the 2019 holiday season and match DL's price but quickly reduces the price after the season ends charging about $100 dollars more than EK. UA is not going to take the lead when it comes to price in this market, so I think it will be interesting to see what effect DL has on this market in terms of price point. Can DL actually command a higher price point in spite of the extremely low fares that have flooded this market as a result of the ME3 and EK in particular?

DL is launching the route in the peak holiday season, so fares are bound to be higher on most airlines including UA. The flights just went on sale a couple of days ago, so let's wait and see if DL adjusts pricing for flights after the holiday season is over. My guess is they will. There is no way DL can sustain upwards of $2K fares in Feb./March when it is slow season and expect to fill the plane in Y.

edealinfo wrote:

I disagree. For Y, Emirates and Qatar hard and soft product beat DL hands down, every time. Whatever premium that DL hopes to get for a "non-stop" flight will be offset by superior product and service on EK and Qatar.

Skymiles loyal members may, however, patronize DL in Y despite a higher price and the inferior service. Business class is a different matter, where those there, value time over a 1-stop.

Indian tourists will never pay a premium for DL economy. In India, flying an international long haul, was never meant to be a bus-like service.

How do the EK and QR hard product in Y beat DL's hard product in Y? How are they superior? I have not flown on EK and QR, so would like to know.

DTWLAX wrote:

jayunited wrote:

It looks like UA is willing to take a gamble during the 2019 holiday season and match DL's price but quickly reduces the price after the season ends charging about $100 dollars more than EK. UA is not going to take the lead when it comes to price in this market, so I think it will be interesting to see what effect DL has on this market in terms of price point. Can DL actually command a higher price point in spite of the extremely low fares that have flooded this market as a result of the ME3 and EK in particular?

DL is launching the route in the peak holiday season, so fares are bound to be higher on most airlines including UA. The flights just went on sale a couple of days ago, so let's wait and see if DL adjusts pricing for flights after the holiday season is over. My guess is they will. There is no way DL can sustain upwards of $2K fares in Feb./March when it is slow season and expect to fill the plane in Y.

The peak holiday season (outbound from the US) ends Dec 24. So that's just 3 days of peak season that they will capitalize on -- Dec 22 to Dec 24. Then there is the shoulder season (outbound) for 2 weeks. Then its low season.

Inbound to the US (when tickets are booked originating in India), the peak season is Dec 30 through Jan 14. Then is shoulder season for 1 more week. And, then its low season.

I don't see how DL will make any money looking at Dec through March combined.

DTWLAX wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

I disagree. For Y, Emirates and Qatar hard and soft product beat DL hands down, every time. Whatever premium that DL hopes to get for a "non-stop" flight will be offset by superior product and service on EK and Qatar.

Skymiles loyal members may, however, patronize DL in Y despite a higher price and the inferior service. Business class is a different matter, where those there, value time over a 1-stop.

Indian tourists will never pay a premium for DL economy. In India, flying an international long haul, was never meant to be a bus-like service.

How do the EK and QR hard product in Y beat DL's hard product in Y? How are they superior? I have not flown on EK and QR, so would like to know.

The difference is between a bus service and airline service at its best in Y. Some things to note on EK - superlative flight entertainment system, multilingual crew (on a typical flight that are flight attendants that speak a combined at least 10 languages -- they mention all the languages on take off); amenity kit (eye shades, socks, toothpaste, toothbrush, etc), they give you stickers to place on your seat to let the flight attendant know whether you wish to be woken up for meal service or not, flight attendants periodically clean the toilets during the flight so it is neither stinky nor dirty on long flights, luxurious economy class seats on the A380, wet towels, courteous, warm and friendly service, will treat old parents and cranky children "with consideration" better than any American flight attendant ever would (although Indian flight attendants are the most compassionate and understanding), great and tasty food -- usually 3 choices per meal, water bottle for everyone on before take off (yes, they know everyone needs water), UNLIMITED BOOZE at NO CHARGE (except for champagne) etc......and this is all economy class service!

dtw2hyd wrote:

Glad to see some real numbers. Is the 309K each way or both ways combined? If it is just NYC-BOM O&D one way, that is impressive.

Its 309k round-trip combined, and actually NYC not just JFK.

dtw2hyd wrote:

I think DL non-stop would be able to command $600 premium over average Y fares.

A premium of $50-100 above market average is something airlines would be ecstatic about. Seeing a $600 premium over the market average is unheard of.

it's so funny to read some of these posts. $600 premium over average Y fares? I wonder what UA has been doing all these years. Who come it has been incapable of getting anything even remotely close to that out of EWR, despite the really reach Indian expat community in Jersey.

edealinfo wrote:

The difference is between a bus service and airline service at its best in Y. Some things to note on EK - superlative flight entertainment system, multilingual crew (on a typical flight that are flight attendants that speak a combined at least 10 languages -- they mention all the languages on take off); amenity kit (eye shades, socks, toothpaste, toothbrush, etc), they give you stickers to place on your seat to let the flight attendant know whether you wish to be woken up for meal service or not, flight attendants periodically clean the toilets during the flight so it is neither stinky nor dirty on long flights, luxurious economy class seats on the A380, wet towels, courteous, warm and friendly service, will treat old parents and cranky children "with consideration" better than any American flight attendant ever would (although Indian flight attendants are the most compassionate and understanding), great and tasty food -- usually 3 choices per meal, water bottle for everyone on before take off (yes, they know everyone needs water), UNLIMITED BOOZE at NO CHARGE (except for champagne) etc......and this is all economy class service!

You obviously haven't flown in Delta international Y in a while. It isnt' as bad as you like to make it out to be and no, EK/QR won't blow DL out of the water, considering that DL will offer:
- 3-3-3 Y abreast seating on the 777 vs 3-4-3 on the EK and QR 777s (and EK and QR are flying mostly 777s out of BOM)
- the widest Y seats at 18.5 inches vs 17 inches on the EK 777 or 18 inch on the EK A380; 17 inches on the QR 777s, 17.5 inches on the QR A359s, etc.
- Comfort Plus seats option with 34 inch pitch. Now, the DL 777s have been configured at 90 Comfort Plus seats and 122 regular Y seats at 31-32 inches pitch. Given the stinginess of some of the crowd in this market, they will likely not fill those 90 Comfort Plus seats with paying pax, which means that a good portion of regular Y pax will end up in some of those 34 inch pitch seats by default when they oversell the Main Cabin.
- Over 300 movie titles on the AVOD PTV (DL will increase the number of Indian movie selections once BOM starts though it won't be to the level of EK/QR admittedly; however if you look at DL's pretty extensive East Asian movie selection for their TPAC flights, they will certainly increase the number of Indian titles).
- Hot towels before the first drink and meal service after takeoff; another hot towel service for the last meal/drink service before landing
- FREE UNLIMITED BOOZE in Economy (yes, even the sparkling wine or Prosecco)
- Printed menu/flight experience card
- Three main meal choices including a vegetarian one (besides the special meals options)
- Amenity pack including eyeshades and earplugs
- Full-sized water bottle for each Y pax

So, no, DL's international Y is not by any means "bus service" these days. And yes, there are surly and not-very-nice EK crews out there as well. Go read some trip reports and you will see that EK cabin crew service has been on the decline...Yes DL will be "American" in a way in that there will be inconsistency in the 'niceness' of the crew but for the most part, they have a good number of friendly flight attendants.

edealinfo wrote:

DTWLAX wrote:

How do the EK and QR hard product in Y beat DL's hard product in Y? How are they superior? I have not flown on EK and QR, so would like to know.

The difference is between a bus service and airline service at its best in Y. Some things to note on EK - superlative flight entertainment system, multilingual crew (on a typical flight that are flight attendants that speak a combined at least 10 languages -- they mention all the languages on take off); amenity kit (eye shades, socks, toothpaste, toothbrush, etc), they give you stickers to place on your seat to let the flight attendant know whether you wish to be woken up for meal service or not, flight attendants periodically clean the toilets during the flight so it is neither stinky nor dirty on long flights, luxurious economy class seats on the A380, wet towels, courteous, warm and friendly service, will treat old parents and cranky children "with consideration" better than any American flight attendant ever would (although Indian flight attendants are the most compassionate and understanding), great and tasty food -- usually 3 choices per meal, water bottle for everyone on before take off (yes, they know everyone needs water), UNLIMITED BOOZE at NO CHARGE (except for champagne) etc......and this is all economy class service!

My question was how are EK and QR "hard" products better than DL's "hard" product.
What you described is predominantly their "soft" product, except probably the inflight entertainment system. DL's inflight entertainment is not bad either. While they may not have the vast collection of Indian movies that EK and QR have, they do have about 4-5 options.
And just FYI - DL does not charge for booze either on long haul flights.

tphuang wrote:

it's so funny to read some of these posts. $600 premium over average Y fares? I wonder what UA has been doing all these years. Who come it has been incapable of getting anything even remotely close to that out of EWR, despite the really reach Indian expat community in Jersey.

Guys the fares have been adjusted - now pricing like others. Everyone can relax.

AI and UA seem to get on average $200 more for nonstop flights over other alliance airlines like LH. The gap between AI/LH can be more when say EY offers their $800 fares. KU and TK have offered even cheaper and I don’t count air china’s $400 fares

panamair wrote:

You obviously haven't flown in Delta international Y in a while. It isnt' as bad as you like to make it out to be and no, EK/QR won't blow DL out of the water, considering that DL will offer:
- 3-3-3 Y abreast seating on the 777 vs 3-4-3 on the EK and QR 777s (and EK and QR are flying mostly 777s out of BOM)
- the widest Y seats at 18.5 inches vs 17 inches on the EK 777 or 18 inch on the EK A380; 17 inches on the QR 777s, 17.5 inches on the QR A359s, etc.
- Comfort Plus seats option with 34 inch pitch. Now, the DL 777s have been configured at 90 Comfort Plus seats and 122 regular Y seats at 31-32 inches pitch. Given the stinginess of some of the crowd in this market, they will likely not fill those 90 Comfort Plus seats with paying pax, which means that a good portion of regular Y pax will end up in some of those 34 inch pitch seats by default when they oversell the Main Cabin.
- Over 300 movie titles on the AVOD PTV (DL will increase the number of Indian movie selections once BOM starts though it won't be to the level of EK/QR admittedly; however if you look at DL's pretty extensive East Asian movie selection for their TPAC flights, they will certainly increase the number of Indian titles).
- Hot towels before the first drink and meal service after takeoff; another hot towel service for the last meal/drink service before landing
- FREE UNLIMITED BOOZE in Economy (yes, even the sparkling wine or Prosecco)
- Printed menu/flight experience card
- Three main meal choices including a vegetarian one (besides the special meals options)
- Amenity pack including eyeshades and earplugs
- Full-sized water bottle for each Y pax

So, no, DL's international Y is not by any means "bus service" these days. And yes, there are surly and not-very-nice EK crews out there as well. Go read some trip reports and you will see that EK cabin crew service has been on the decline...Yes DL will be "American" in a way in that there will be inconsistency in the 'niceness' of the crew but for the most part, they have a good number of friendly flight attendants.

You just beat me to it. I just posted a response but not as detailed as yours