dmstorm22
Posts: 505
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 5:42 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:
it's so funny to read some of these posts. $600 premium over average Y fares? I wonder what UA has been doing all these years. Who come it has been incapable of getting anything even remotely close to that out of EWR, despite the really reach Indian expat community in Jersey.


Guys the fares have been adjusted - now pricing like others. Everyone can relax.

AI and UA seem to get on average $200 more for nonstop flights over other alliance airlines like LH. The gap between AI/LH can be more when say EY offers their $800 fares. KU and TK have offered even cheaper and I don’t count air china’s $400 fares


Good to hear, it was going to bring up endless mindless debate if DL was keeping fares at 2k+.

They can get a premium over ME3 (or even LH/BA). AI and UA have done so for years, normally in the $100-200 range.

I expect DL to price accordingly. We've seemed to leave the rock bottom, when you could get EK/QR for $650-700, but the ME3 solidly in teh $800-900 range, with DL/UA at $900-1000 seems like a standard that will be manageable.
 
edealinfo
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 6:29 pm

I didn't know that DL served Scotch in economy. When did that happen? I thought they only served free cheap wines.

EK actually owns cellars in some European countries and they have an inventory of like $500 million in wines

https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article ... best-wines
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun May 05, 2019 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
edealinfo
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 6:33 pm

Emirates Has Invested $500 Million to Build a 'Fort Knox' of Wine
How the Dubai-based airline serves the best wine list in the sky.

This is from Bloomberg. How much has Delta invested in its wine?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... in-the-sky
 
edealinfo
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 6:40 pm

panamair wrote:
s.


With regard to seating on EK, yes the 777W have 10 across but more seat pitch. They decided on that rather than 9 abreast and tighter seat pitch as is the case with Delta. But all this means nothing since most passengers choose to fly their A380's which outshine DL's hard product on economy.

DL simply doesn't come close to EK in regular economy (soft or hard product). You cannot compare Comfort Plus or Premium Economy to regular economy since obviously Comfort Plus is priced higher.

By the way, what is the screen size on DL's flight (economy)? Do you know what it is on EK? I suspect more than double that of DL.
 
edealinfo
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 6:46 pm

panamair wrote:
- Hot towels before the first drink and meal service after takeoff; another hot towel service for the last meal/drink service before landing


You mean DL actually NOW hands out hot TOWELS (not the paper towels called towelettes or whatever?) in economy?
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1729
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Re: Delta to serve Mumbai nonstop in 2019

Sun May 05, 2019 7:05 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
tphuang wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

I don't fly airlines which treat their employees like ..., not that US/EU carriers are saints.

"UA wouldn't touch AI" with a 10-foot pole, this statement has been repeated several times a.net. UA/LH put their eggs in 9W basket long before DL. DL used to offer DTW-JFK feed to AI.

DL mostly makes business decisions based on revenue. If Vistara cannot ramp-up its Mumbai network, AI interlining is the prudent way to go. In the long run, DL/VS-AI partnership at LHR could be developed similar to SkyTeam-9W at AMS. Just a hypothesis.

BTW, SkyTeam already started offering Vistara connections at DEL.

JFK-BOM PDEW is 500, and there are more than 10 options including every state-owned carrier. if DL wants to fill the plane it needs partner feed on India side.


That's your prerogative. I can tell you that most Indian expats I know fly EK exclusively. And aside from that, there are also a lot of QR supporters. DL has a huge uphill battle to try winning over that crowd. This is definitely not a low yielding I'm talking about here.


I have gotten the same impression that many Indian expats love to fly EK.
Personally, I don't understand it. I have flown EK J several times (and F once) and thought it was just "OK". The seat in the 77W from Boston is nothing special, even a bit cramped if you ask me (I'm 6'2"). The service is good, but so is the service on many other airliners. I also got to try the A380 (DXB-BKK) and though it was just marginally better than the 77W. Sure, you have a private space, but the plane looked extremely ratty, worn and still somewhat cramped.
Now, if you asked me what my favorite J airliner is I would say JAL. Excellent service, great seat. I would place CX at #2.


I don't understand this either. I too have flown Emirates in J multiple times. Once, I even flew it from JFK to Auckland. It was nothing special. I would pay a reasonable premium to not having to take it and be able to take a nonstop flight to where I want to go.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Delta to serve Mumbai nonstop in 2019

Sun May 05, 2019 7:11 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
I don't understand this either. I too have flown Emirates in J multiple times. Once, I even flew it from JFK to Auckland. It was nothing special. I would pay a reasonable premium to not having to take it and be able to take a nonstop flight to where I want to go.


The difference is noticeable in ECONOMY.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1070
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 7:41 pm

tphuang wrote:
panamair wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

The difference is between a bus service and airline service at its best in Y. Some things to note on EK - superlative flight entertainment system, multilingual crew (on a typical flight that are flight attendants that speak a combined at least 10 languages -- they mention all the languages on take off); amenity kit (eye shades, socks, toothpaste, toothbrush, etc), they give you stickers to place on your seat to let the flight attendant know whether you wish to be woken up for meal service or not, flight attendants periodically clean the toilets during the flight so it is neither stinky nor dirty on long flights, luxurious economy class seats on the A380, wet towels, courteous, warm and friendly service, will treat old parents and cranky children "with consideration" better than any American flight attendant ever would (although Indian flight attendants are the most compassionate and understanding), great and tasty food -- usually 3 choices per meal, water bottle for everyone on before take off (yes, they know everyone needs water), UNLIMITED BOOZE at NO CHARGE (except for champagne) etc......and this is all economy class service!


You obviously haven't flown in Delta international Y in a while. It isnt' as bad as you like to make it out to be and no, EK/QR won't blow DL out of the water, considering that DL will offer:
- 3-3-3 Y abreast seating on the 777 vs 3-4-3 on the EK and QR 777s (and EK and QR are flying mostly 777s out of BOM)
- the widest Y seats at 18.5 inches vs 17 inches on the EK 777 or 18 inch on the EK A380; 17 inches on the QR 777s, 17.5 inches on the QR A359s, etc.
- Comfort Plus seats option with 34 inch pitch. Now, the DL 777s have been configured at 90 Comfort Plus seats and 122 regular Y seats at 31-32 inches pitch. Given the stinginess of some of the crowd in this market, they will likely not fill those 90 Comfort Plus seats with paying pax, which means that a good portion of regular Y pax will end up in some of those 34 inch pitch seats by default when they oversell the Main Cabin.
- Over 300 movie titles on the AVOD PTV (DL will increase the number of Indian movie selections once BOM starts though it won't be to the level of EK/QR admittedly; however if you look at DL's pretty extensive East Asian movie selection for their TPAC flights, they will certainly increase the number of Indian titles).
- Hot towels before the first drink and meal service after takeoff; another hot towel service for the last meal/drink service before landing
- FREE UNLIMITED BOOZE in Economy (yes, even the sparkling wine or Prosecco)
- Printed menu/flight experience card
- Three main meal choices including a vegetarian one (besides the special meals options)
- Amenity pack including eyeshades and earplugs
- Full-sized water bottle for each Y pax

So, no, DL's international Y is not by any means "bus service" these days. And yes, there are surly and not-very-nice EK crews out there as well. Go read some trip reports and you will see that EK cabin crew service has been on the decline...Yes DL will be "American" in a way in that there will be inconsistency in the 'niceness' of the crew but for the most part, they have a good number of friendly flight attendants.


Out of JFK, EK flies only A380, so the Y experience is pretty good. 32 inch pitch, 18+ inch width and extremely quiet cabin. Try comparing A380 noise level to B772, huge difference. And same with cabin pressure of A380 vs B772, huge difference. And J experience is even better. No Y passengers on the J deck and you have the bar area. EK simply has a soft product that is very catered to Indian taste. I don't think many Indians care about sparking wine and proseco.


I think you are way too focused on your experience and perception of what “Indians” want. Does the person that finds EK appealing exist, yes absolutely. But it is by no means even the majority of the market - especially on the US origin side. Remember the US-India market is super diverse. There is not one type of customer. DL is launching one flight connecting two financial capitals. Why do you feel that business travels, Skyteam elites and long time Indian immigrants won’t find a nonstop appealing. If you want to profile people, while recent immigrants might have no issue with ME3 there are definitely those long time immigrants that do not want to fly through the Middle East or don’t want to support airlines that don’t treat their employees well or come from countries that don’t treat south Asians / non Muslims well.. Also DL is great when it comes to IRROPs. Americans are used to the customer service they get from US airlines.

Finally, I put in RDU-BOM on google flights. EK didn’t even come up. This is who DL is also going after.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 8:09 pm

LAXintl wrote:

A premium of $50-100 above market average is something airlines would be ecstatic about. Seeing a $600 premium over the market average is unheard of.


AI non-stop was getting $400(anecdotal) premium on SFO-DEL top fares, almost double of Chinese carrier fares.

There are only a few ways a ULH can be financially viable. Command premium fares, cross cabin subsidies or cross subsidize across network.

DL has to find one of these niche segments, or go back to blaming ME3 or AI.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2913
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 8:22 pm

tphuang wrote:
panamair wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
The difference is between a bus service and airline service at its best in Y. Some things to note on EK - superlative flight entertainment system, multilingual crew (on a typical flight that are flight attendants that speak a combined at least 10 languages -- they mention all the languages on take off); amenity kit (eye shades, socks, toothpaste, toothbrush, etc), they give you stickers to place on your seat to let the flight attendant know whether you wish to be woken up for meal service or not, flight attendants periodically clean the toilets during the flight so it is neither stinky nor dirty on long flights, luxurious economy class seats on the A380, wet towels, courteous, warm and friendly service, will treat old parents and cranky children "with consideration" better than any American flight attendant ever would (although Indian flight attendants are the most compassionate and understanding), great and tasty food -- usually 3 choices per meal, water bottle for everyone on before take off (yes, they know everyone needs water), UNLIMITED BOOZE at NO CHARGE (except for champagne) etc......and this is all economy class service!

You obviously haven't flown in Delta international Y in a while. It isnt' as bad as you like to make it out to be and no, EK/QR won't blow DL out of the water, considering that DL will offer:
- 3-3-3 Y abreast seating on the 777 vs 3-4-3 on the EK and QR 777s (and EK and QR are flying mostly 777s out of BOM)
- the widest Y seats at 18.5 inches vs 17 inches on the EK 777 or 18 inch on the EK A380; 17 inches on the QR 777s, 17.5 inches on the QR A359s, etc.
- Comfort Plus seats option with 34 inch pitch. Now, the DL 777s have been configured at 90 Comfort Plus seats and 122 regular Y seats at 31-32 inches pitch. Given the stinginess of some of the crowd in this market, they will likely not fill those 90 Comfort Plus seats with paying pax, which means that a good portion of regular Y pax will end up in some of those 34 inch pitch seats by default when they oversell the Main Cabin.
- Over 300 movie titles on the AVOD PTV (DL will increase the number of Indian movie selections once BOM starts though it won't be to the level of EK/QR admittedly; however if you look at DL's pretty extensive East Asian movie selection for their TPAC flights, they will certainly increase the number of Indian titles).
- Hot towels before the first drink and meal service after takeoff; another hot towel service for the last meal/drink service before landing
- FREE UNLIMITED BOOZE in Economy (yes, even the sparkling wine or Prosecco)
- Printed menu/flight experience card
- Three main meal choices including a vegetarian one (besides the special meals options)
- Amenity pack including eyeshades and earplugs
- Full-sized water bottle for each Y pax
So, no, DL's international Y is not by any means "bus service" these days. And yes, there are surly and not-very-nice EK crews out there as well. Go read some trip reports and you will see that EK cabin crew service has been on the decline...Yes DL will be "American" in a way in that there will be inconsistency in the 'niceness' of the crew but for the most part, they have a good number of friendly flight attendants.

Out of JFK, EK flies only A380, so the Y experience is pretty good. 32 inch pitch, 18+ inch width and extremely quiet cabin. Try comparing A380 noise level to B772, huge difference. And same with cabin pressure of A380 vs B772, huge difference. And J experience is even better. No Y passengers on the J deck and you have the bar area. EK simply has a soft product that is very catered to Indian taste. I don't think many Indians care about sparking wine and proseco.


But they don't fly it all the way to BOM. You are still looking at a flight with a stopover, and a second flight on the same 777 that you claim is a "huge difference" - except this 777 is, at least in Y, a significant downgrade.

As much as I have liked EK's 380 flights, I didn't "love" them. And I didn't notice any particular attempt to "cater... to Indian taste". If they had, there were probably at least 20 other nationalities onboard that would have been insulted...

:roll:

AEROFAN wrote:
I don't understand this either. I too have flown Emirates in J multiple times. Once, I even flew it from JFK to Auckland. It was nothing special. I would pay a reasonable premium to not having to take it and be able to take a nonstop flight to where I want to go.


:checkmark: You are obviously the type of customer DL is looking for.
Last edited by alfa164 on Sun May 05, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Sightseer
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 8:26 pm

edealinfo wrote:
By the way, what is the screen size on DL's flight (economy)? Do you know what it is on EK? I suspect more than double that of DL.

Wow.

9-10 inches (23-25 cm) is pretty standard for Y PTVs today, including on DL. Are you suggesting those on EK are half a meter?
 
alfa164
Posts: 2913
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 8:32 pm

edealinfo wrote:
I didn't know that DL served Scotch in economy. When did that happen? I thought they only served free cheap wines.EK actually owns cellars in some European countries and they have an inventory of like $500 million in wines


edealinfo wrote:
Emirates Has Invested $500 Million to Build a 'Fort Knox' of Wine. How the Dubai-based airline serves the best wine list in the sky. This is from Bloomberg. How much has Delta invested in its wine?


edealinfo wrote:
[By the way, what is the screen size on DL's flight (economy)? Do you know what it is on EK? I suspect more than double that of DL.


edealinfo wrote:
You mean DL actually NOW hands out hot TOWELS (not the paper towels called towelettes or whatever?) in economy?


We get it! It is easy to see who the EK shill is here...

;)

Sightseer wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
By the way, what is the screen size on DL's flight (economy)? Do you know what it is on EK? I suspect more than double that of DL.

Wow. 9-10 inches (23-25 cm) is pretty standard for Y PTVs today, including on DL. Are you suggesting those on EK are half a meter?


...the same poster who was debasing Jet at every opportunity on another thread.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7070
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 8:55 pm

edealinfo wrote:
By the way, what is the screen size on DL's flight (economy)? Do you know what it is on EK? I suspect more than double that of DL.


Main Cabin 11".
...
Premium Select 13.3"
D1 18"
 
alfa164
Posts: 2913
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 9:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
By the way, what is the screen size on DL's flight (economy)? Do you know what it is on EK? I suspect more than double that of DL.

Main Cabin 11"....
Premium Select 13.3"
D1 18"


You mean EK has a screen 22" wide... but the seat is only 17"? That must have involved the intervention of some genie...

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7070
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 9:36 pm

alfa164 wrote:
You mean EK has a screen 22" wide... but the seat is only 17"? That must have involved the intervention of some genie...

;)


EK always claimed food and digital content are (seat width) pain mitigation factors, but Delta proved no one has monopoly on product and service quality.

Sure DL made/saved $Billions by nickle and dime passengers, rather than sitting/wasting/losing the cash it saved, it started spending on passengers.

Delta AVML beats 9W,KL and LH. Free WiFi with messaging is a great way to stay in touch for entire duration of the flight (barring any country restrictions).

Over the last few years EK introduced a lot of service "enhancements", while DL improved its product/service. This is where the perception gap with those never tried Delta.
 
behramjee
Posts: 4931
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 05, 2019 10:27 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Some market data from Routesonline.com

Image

https://www.routesonline.com/track/5HKm ... 0U3qiVTiC/


Hello,

I have slightly different numbers which are as follows:

2018...BOM-NYC-BOM 328,000 passengers round trip paying US$ 875 one way on average without YQ

versus

2017...BOM-NYC-BOM 320,000 passengers round trip paying US$829 one way on average without YQ

Compared to Delhi which was as follows:

2018...DEL-NYC-DEL 347,000 pax r/t paying US$923 one way on average w/o YQ
2017...DEL-NYC-DEL 344,000 pax r/t paying US$ 898 one way on average w/o YQ

I really think that DL or KL should seriously look at BLR-AMS at least 5 times per week effective W19 season using an A333. The P2P market exploded alone by +50% from 42,000 to 66,000 from 2017 to 2018 paying US$626 one way without YQ which is quite decent.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1488
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 06, 2019 12:36 am

behramjee wrote:
I really think that DL or KL should seriously look at BLR-AMS at least 5 times per week effective W19 season using an A333. The P2P market exploded alone by +50% from 42,000 to 66,000 from 2017 to 2018 paying US$626 one way without YQ which is quite decent.


Since DL is testing India with BOM, I don't think they will also start AMS to BLR. As for KL, wouldn't they expand the number of times they fly a week to BOM before opening up BLR? [Or do they fly daily to BOM?]
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 06, 2019 12:42 am

With Jet's demise, is there any chance LH will open up Hyderabad? Some have opined that their sending a 747 to BLR is intended to make up for not going to HYD but I would argue that BLR excluding HYD would still need the 747-800 given that BLR (given its growth in aviation) needs adequate connectivity to Europe and onward connectivity to the US. As far as I know, only 3 European carriers fly to BLR ( BA, LH and AF) and only 1 flies to HYD (BA). LH could uses its smallest long haul to HYD or is LH also getting the A321 LR which may be a better fit?
 
tphuang
Posts: 2983
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 06, 2019 1:41 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:
panamair wrote:

You obviously haven't flown in Delta international Y in a while. It isnt' as bad as you like to make it out to be and no, EK/QR won't blow DL out of the water, considering that DL will offer:
- 3-3-3 Y abreast seating on the 777 vs 3-4-3 on the EK and QR 777s (and EK and QR are flying mostly 777s out of BOM)
- the widest Y seats at 18.5 inches vs 17 inches on the EK 777 or 18 inch on the EK A380; 17 inches on the QR 777s, 17.5 inches on the QR A359s, etc.
- Comfort Plus seats option with 34 inch pitch. Now, the DL 777s have been configured at 90 Comfort Plus seats and 122 regular Y seats at 31-32 inches pitch. Given the stinginess of some of the crowd in this market, they will likely not fill those 90 Comfort Plus seats with paying pax, which means that a good portion of regular Y pax will end up in some of those 34 inch pitch seats by default when they oversell the Main Cabin.
- Over 300 movie titles on the AVOD PTV (DL will increase the number of Indian movie selections once BOM starts though it won't be to the level of EK/QR admittedly; however if you look at DL's pretty extensive East Asian movie selection for their TPAC flights, they will certainly increase the number of Indian titles).
- Hot towels before the first drink and meal service after takeoff; another hot towel service for the last meal/drink service before landing
- FREE UNLIMITED BOOZE in Economy (yes, even the sparkling wine or Prosecco)
- Printed menu/flight experience card
- Three main meal choices including a vegetarian one (besides the special meals options)
- Amenity pack including eyeshades and earplugs
- Full-sized water bottle for each Y pax

So, no, DL's international Y is not by any means "bus service" these days. And yes, there are surly and not-very-nice EK crews out there as well. Go read some trip reports and you will see that EK cabin crew service has been on the decline...Yes DL will be "American" in a way in that there will be inconsistency in the 'niceness' of the crew but for the most part, they have a good number of friendly flight attendants.


Out of JFK, EK flies only A380, so the Y experience is pretty good. 32 inch pitch, 18+ inch width and extremely quiet cabin. Try comparing A380 noise level to B772, huge difference. And same with cabin pressure of A380 vs B772, huge difference. And J experience is even better. No Y passengers on the J deck and you have the bar area. EK simply has a soft product that is very catered to Indian taste. I don't think many Indians care about sparking wine and proseco.


I think you are way too focused on your experience and perception of what “Indians” want. Does the person that finds EK appealing exist, yes absolutely. But it is by no means even the majority of the market - especially on the US origin side. Remember the US-India market is super diverse. There is not one type of customer. DL is launching one flight connecting two financial capitals. Why do you feel that business travels, Skyteam elites and long time Indian immigrants won’t find a nonstop appealing. If you want to profile people, while recent immigrants might have no issue with ME3 there are definitely those long time immigrants that do not want to fly through the Middle East or don’t want to support airlines that don’t treat their employees well or come from countries that don’t treat south Asians / non Muslims well.. Also DL is great when it comes to IRROPs. Americans are used to the customer service they get from US airlines.

Finally, I put in RDU-BOM on google flights. EK didn’t even come up. This is who DL is also going after.


hmm, I put in RDU-BOM and B6/EK option definitely showed up in there.
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=RDU. ... 1;sd:1;t:f
I'm really not sure what you are looking at.

The problem with your argument is that DL actually has to get premium over what's in the market right now to be not loosing its pants off. And maybe it's willing to loose its pants off. EK simply has much lower cost than DL and has that ultra efficient hub in Dubai that keep the current fare levels sustainable. And it has plenty of incentive to keep selling seat at very low price point to fill those A380 cabins. There is a reason DL hasn't tried this route until now. There is a reason it has to drop seasonal JFK-GIG also. It can't afford to bleed money on 2 long haul international routes at the same time.

DL isn't going to fill in the entire cabin with JFK-BOM itinerary. For all the connection itineraries, EK will be competitive in total travel time.

If there is 309K O&D between NYC-BOM R/T combined, then about 154K per direction and 420 a day. There are already 2 777 on EWR-BOM and now a third 777 with DL. And then EK/QR/EY are all picking up their share of NYC-BOM. And there are also other connection through European carriers. And DL doesn't have the Indian side connections sorted out yet. They will have to get it sorted out. For the NYC-non-BOM Indian itineraries, EK will have no disadvantage on total travel time. For large US cities with EK service to BOM, EK will have no disadvantage on total travel time. For those cities to non-BOM Indian Itineraries, EK will have pretty big advantage in total travel time.

And DL is also battling UA for those direct traffic between "two financial capitals" an.d EWR is a closer to wall street and jersey city side of the big banks. The NJ crowd are not going to fly out of JFK.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7070
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 06, 2019 11:48 am

tphuang wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Out of JFK, EK flies only A380, so the Y experience is pretty good. 32 inch pitch, 18+ inch width and extremely quiet cabin. Try comparing A380 noise level to B772, huge difference. And same with cabin pressure of A380 vs B772, huge difference. And J experience is even better. No Y passengers on the J deck and you have the bar area. EK simply has a soft product that is very catered to Indian taste. I don't think many Indians care about sparking wine and proseco.


I think you are way too focused on your experience and perception of what “Indians” want. Does the person that finds EK appealing exist, yes absolutely. But it is by no means even the majority of the market - especially on the US origin side. Remember the US-India market is super diverse. There is not one type of customer. DL is launching one flight connecting two financial capitals. Why do you feel that business travels, Skyteam elites and long time Indian immigrants won’t find a nonstop appealing. If you want to profile people, while recent immigrants might have no issue with ME3 there are definitely those long time immigrants that do not want to fly through the Middle East or don’t want to support airlines that don’t treat their employees well or come from countries that don’t treat south Asians / non Muslims well.. Also DL is great when it comes to IRROPs. Americans are used to the customer service they get from US airlines.

Finally, I put in RDU-BOM on google flights. EK didn’t even come up. This is who DL is also going after.


hmm, I put in RDU-BOM and B6/EK option definitely showed up in there.
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=RDU. ... 1;sd:1;t:f
I'm really not sure what you are looking at.

The problem with your argument is that DL actually has to get premium over what's in the market right now to be not loosing its pants off. And maybe it's willing to loose its pants off. EK simply has much lower cost than DL and has that ultra efficient hub in Dubai that keep the current fare levels sustainable. And it has plenty of incentive to keep selling seat at very low price point to fill those A380 cabins. There is a reason DL hasn't tried this route until now. There is a reason it has to drop seasonal JFK-GIG also. It can't afford to bleed money on 2 long haul international routes at the same time.

DL isn't going to fill in the entire cabin with JFK-BOM itinerary. For all the connection itineraries, EK will be competitive in total travel time.

If there is 309K O&D between NYC-BOM R/T combined, then about 154K per direction and 420 a day. There are already 2 777 on EWR-BOM and now a third 777 with DL. And then EK/QR/EY are all picking up their share of NYC-BOM. And there are also other connection through European carriers. And DL doesn't have the Indian side connections sorted out yet. They will have to get it sorted out. For the NYC-non-BOM Indian itineraries, EK will have no disadvantage on total travel time. For large US cities with EK service to BOM, EK will have no disadvantage on total travel time. For those cities to non-BOM Indian Itineraries, EK will have pretty big advantage in total travel time.

And DL is also battling UA for those direct traffic between "two financial capitals" an.d EWR is a closer to wall street and jersey city side of the big banks. The NJ crowd are not going to fly out of JFK.


All those doomsday scenarios were debated over last 11 months. Now that DL announced the service, may be we should look into how DL can make this work.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1729
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Delta to serve Mumbai nonstop in 2019

Mon May 06, 2019 12:46 pm

edealinfo wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
I don't understand this either. I too have flown Emirates in J multiple times. Once, I even flew it from JFK to Auckland. It was nothing special. I would pay a reasonable premium to not having to take it and be able to take a nonstop flight to where I want to go.


The difference is noticeable in ECONOMY.


I'll take your word for it as I have never flown in that class.
 
The99Percent
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 06, 2019 1:19 pm

edealinfo wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

I disagree. For Y, Emirates and Qatar hard and soft product beat DL hands down, every time. Whatever premium that DL hopes to get for a "non-stop" flight will be offset by superior product and service on EK and Qatar.

Skymiles loyal members may, however, patronize DL in Y despite a higher price and the inferior service. Business class is a different matter, where those there, value time over a 1-stop.

Indian tourists will never pay a premium for DL economy. In India, flying an international long haul, was never meant to be a bus-like service.

How do the EK and QR hard product in Y beat DL's hard product in Y? How are they superior? I have not flown on EK and QR, so would like to know.


The difference is between a bus service and airline service at its best in Y. Some things to note on EK - superlative flight entertainment system, multilingual crew (on a typical flight that are flight attendants that speak a combined at least 10 languages -- they mention all the languages on take off); amenity kit (eye shades, socks, toothpaste, toothbrush, etc), they give you stickers to place on your seat to let the flight attendant know whether you wish to be woken up for meal service or not, flight attendants periodically clean the toilets during the flight so it is neither stinky nor dirty on long flights, luxurious economy class seats on the A380, wet towels, courteous, warm and friendly service, will treat old parents and cranky children "with consideration" better than any American flight attendant ever would (although Indian flight attendants are the most compassionate and understanding), great and tasty food -- usually 3 choices per meal, water bottle for everyone on before take off (yes, they know everyone needs water), UNLIMITED BOOZE at NO CHARGE (except for champagne) etc......and this is all economy class service!


I think that's a personal preference. I've flown EK from SFO for instance on 16 hr flight to DXB. The A380 is great in most aspects, but it feels way too crowded when full. On all my EK flights, I've found the cabin crew to be rude and non-caring. I personally hate DXB as a connection since the airport is always crowded and feels like a shopping mall more than an airport. The entire airport feels way too shiny and bling-ey!
I would go for a non-stop even if it was $100-200 more. In my experience, Delta has very good hard and soft product. The cabin crew is welcoming and responsive. Also, a 777 means you don't feel like you're stuck in a crowded subway car for 12 hours.
 
Lootess
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 26, 2019 4:12 pm

edealinfo wrote:
behramjee wrote:
I really think that DL or KL should seriously look at BLR-AMS at least 5 times per week effective W19 season using an A333. The P2P market exploded alone by +50% from 42,000 to 66,000 from 2017 to 2018 paying US$626 one way without YQ which is quite decent.


Since DL is testing India with BOM, I don't think they will also start AMS to BLR. As for KL, wouldn't they expand the number of times they fly a week to BOM before opening up BLR? [Or do they fly daily to BOM?]


Any DL AMS-India flight, just like before would be part of the AF-KLM JV, so the risk is shared.
 
edealinfo
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 26, 2019 5:02 pm

Does any one have information on advance sales of the JFK - BOM route? I do understand it is way too early from the start date but am just curious nonetheless. Thanks.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 26, 2019 5:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

I think you are way too focused on your experience and perception of what “Indians” want. Does the person that finds EK appealing exist, yes absolutely. But it is by no means even the majority of the market - especially on the US origin side. Remember the US-India market is super diverse. There is not one type of customer. DL is launching one flight connecting two financial capitals. Why do you feel that business travels, Skyteam elites and long time Indian immigrants won’t find a nonstop appealing. If you want to profile people, while recent immigrants might have no issue with ME3 there are definitely those long time immigrants that do not want to fly through the Middle East or don’t want to support airlines that don’t treat their employees well or come from countries that don’t treat south Asians / non Muslims well.. Also DL is great when it comes to IRROPs. Americans are used to the customer service they get from US airlines.

Finally, I put in RDU-BOM on google flights. EK didn’t even come up. This is who DL is also going after.


hmm, I put in RDU-BOM and B6/EK option definitely showed up in there.
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=RDU. ... 1;sd:1;t:f
I'm really not sure what you are looking at.

The problem with your argument is that DL actually has to get premium over what's in the market right now to be not loosing its pants off. And maybe it's willing to loose its pants off. EK simply has much lower cost than DL and has that ultra efficient hub in Dubai that keep the current fare levels sustainable. And it has plenty of incentive to keep selling seat at very low price point to fill those A380 cabins. There is a reason DL hasn't tried this route until now. There is a reason it has to drop seasonal JFK-GIG also. It can't afford to bleed money on 2 long haul international routes at the same time.

DL isn't going to fill in the entire cabin with JFK-BOM itinerary. For all the connection itineraries, EK will be competitive in total travel time.

If there is 309K O&D between NYC-BOM R/T combined, then about 154K per direction and 420 a day. There are already 2 777 on EWR-BOM and now a third 777 with DL. And then EK/QR/EY are all picking up their share of NYC-BOM. And there are also other connection through European carriers. And DL doesn't have the Indian side connections sorted out yet. They will have to get it sorted out. For the NYC-non-BOM Indian itineraries, EK will have no disadvantage on total travel time. For large US cities with EK service to BOM, EK will have no disadvantage on total travel time. For those cities to non-BOM Indian Itineraries, EK will have pretty big advantage in total travel time.

And DL is also battling UA for those direct traffic between "two financial capitals" an.d EWR is a closer to wall street and jersey city side of the big banks. The NJ crowd are not going to fly out of JFK.


All those doomsday scenarios were debated over last 11 months. Now that DL announced the service, may be we should look into how DL can make this work.

Maybe we should discuss why DL believes this will work.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
edealinfo
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 26, 2019 5:20 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Maybe we should discuss why DL believes this will work.

Lightsaber


Here are at least a dozen:

1. Helps fill some of the hole created by Jet's collapse.
2. Connecting US and India's financial capitals.
3. Huge and affluent Indian community in NY's area.
4. JFK is an international hub for Delta.
5. NYC is the tourist capital of America if not the world.
6. Opens a presence in India, with a population of 1.3 billion. It can't just ignore India just as it can't just ignore China.
7. Doesn't want to leave it to UA which will soon have 3 daily flights to India (EWR-DEL, EWR-BOM, SFO-DEL)
8. Best located airport to in the US serve India (a flight from ATL would be too long and too expensive to operate)
9. May get a captive audience from loyal Skyteam members.
10. May get those who want to avoid ME3 + Turkish carriers.
11. Kids may want to put their elderly parents on "non-stop" flights to help them avoid the hassles of connecting flights.
12. Will show up around the world in search systems/airline reservation systems as the fastest flight (lowest time) from America to India.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 26, 2019 5:50 pm

Btw last I looked JFK-BOM in FEB/March stops being daily. It goes to 5X. anyone know what the long term plan on this flight is. Meaning is it an aircraft shortage or the plan to be 5X
 
edealinfo
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 26, 2019 5:59 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Btw last I looked JFK-BOM in FEB/March stops being daily. It goes to 5X. anyone know what the long term plan on this flight is. Meaning is it an aircraft shortage or the plan to be 5X


Good question. My hunch would be low loads as I would think that Feb/March is the slowest time of all 12 months for USA-India traffic.
 
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DL757NYC
Posts: 279
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 26, 2019 6:36 pm

Delta had this flight at JFK before. I’ll never forget my buddy putting a tiny ding on a brand new 777LR it was the first week it was in service. I forget the reason it wasn’t his fault but he waited to get cleared to come back to work. The damage was within limits. No repairs necessary. I do miss being out on the ramp.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Sun May 26, 2019 8:37 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Btw last I looked JFK-BOM in FEB/March stops being daily. It goes to 5X. anyone know what the long term plan on this flight is. Meaning is it an aircraft shortage or the plan to be 5X


It could neither and just a seasonal adjustment.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1070
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 11:44 am

Do people know how Delta will handle meals on the BOM-JFK leg. Since the flight leaves so late (12:50am), most people won’t eat the meal they serve at the start of the flight. If they serve breakfast 8 hours after take off that still leaves like 7 hours until landing. Will they offer another meal or snack before landing? I think on JFK-BOm, they just serve dinner and then breakfast, right?
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 11:59 am

Double post
 
Ionosphere
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 12:19 pm

How long did the previous JFK-BOM flight last?
 
AEROFAN
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 12:32 pm

The99Percent wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
How do the EK and QR hard product in Y beat DL's hard product in Y? How are they superior? I have not flown on EK and QR, so would like to know.




I think that's a personal preference. I've flown EK from SFO for instance on 16 hr flight to DXB. The A380 is great in most aspects, but it feels way too crowded when full. On all my EK flights, I've found the cabin crew to be rude and non-caring. I personally hate DXB as a connection since the airport is always crowded and feels like a shopping mall more than an airport. The entire airport feels way too shiny and bling-ey!


The airport is like a fish market: Crowded and disgusting. Even the lounges are crowded.
 
edealinfo
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 12:59 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
The airport is like a fish market: Crowded and disgusting. Even the lounges are crowded.
[/quote]
Agree that SFO needs a complete make over, like LGA
 
blrsea
Posts: 1909
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 1:07 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Do people know how Delta will handle meals on the BOM-JFK leg. Since the flight leaves so late (12:50am), most people won’t eat the meal they serve at the start of the flight. If they serve breakfast 8 hours after take off that still leaves like 7 hours until landing. Will they offer another meal or snack before landing? I think on JFK-BOm, they just serve dinner and then breakfast, right?


Who says people won't eat meal at start of the flight? I have been on LH flights that leave at 1:30am from BLR, and SQ flights that left around midnight. And plenty of people ate the food served within an hour or so of start of the flight. SQ flights are also only of 3.5-4hour duration and people do eat it. Have seen in on AI and MH too, leaving late at night. Also, people would have left their homes at least 2-3 hours before the flight departs, and food at the airport is horribly expensive. So many people do eat even if its at an odd time. Business class passengers would have had their fill at the lounge, so they might not care. But plenty of economy passengers do eat even at late hours.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 910
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 3:31 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Do people know how Delta will handle meals on the BOM-JFK leg. Since the flight leaves so late (12:50am), most people won’t eat the meal they serve at the start of the flight. If they serve breakfast 8 hours after take off that still leaves like 7 hours until landing. Will they offer another meal or snack before landing? I think on JFK-BOm, they just serve dinner and then breakfast, right?

Just like every other long haul flight that leaves BOM at that time of the hour.
In fact the DL flight will be one of the earlier ones leaving BOM as most of the European flights leave BOM after 1:00 AM (AF, BA, LH to FRA, KL)

The first meal will probably be within the first hour after departure, a snack mid-flight and another meal before arrival?
 
edealinfo
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 5:06 pm

blrsea wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
But plenty of economy passengers do eat even at late hours.


isn't that obvious? its either that or an economy passenger goes hungry until the next meal is served, if applicable.

I had to make that choice several times and despite the weird hours forced my eyes open so I could not miss the meal. I always wanted to ask the flight attendants the logic of serving a meal at 2 or 3 am , just an hour after take off but logic questions don't go down well with airline staff.
 
voxkel
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 7:34 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Maybe we should discuss why DL believes this will work.

Lightsaber

Consider the fact that the UA/CO flight has been operating for 11 years, without a true partner in India. What makes you think DL can't pull off the same from JFK?

I still think going JFK-DEL could have been a competitive, as the could have leveraged the 77L's range abilities to do DEL-JFK nonstop, even under the PK closure. This would make DL the only Carrier flying nonstop from DEL to the eastern US. (UA has suspended the flight until the airspace reopens.)
 
AEROFAN
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 7:47 pm

edealinfo wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
The airport is like a fish market: Crowded and disgusting. Even the lounges are crowded.

Agree that SFO needs a complete make over, like LGA[/quote]

See what you did there, but I was actually referring to Dubai :)
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1070
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 7:49 pm

voxkel wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Maybe we should discuss why DL believes this will work.

Lightsaber

Consider the fact that the UA/CO flight has been operating for 11 years, without a true partner in India. What makes you think DL can't pull off the same from JFK?

I still think going JFK-DEL could have been a competitive, as the could have leveraged the 77L's range abilities to do DEL-JFK nonstop, even under the PK closure. This would make DL the only Carrier flying nonstop from DEL to the eastern US. (UA has suspended the flight until the airspace reopens.)


DL has always focused on BOM for some reason. It is speculated that it is because of business traffic. Probably a few key banks that push it over the top towards BOM over DEL. Banks are pretty generous with J travel which is BOM while Tech would be more DEL. But unless DL tells us, this will always be a mystery. The Pak airspace closure will end this year so not really a strategy to launch a route.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 9:18 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
How long did the previous JFK-BOM flight last?

2yrs, down to the day.

It launched on Nov 1, 2006 with a 77E, then switched to 77L when those were later delivered.
It was moved to ATL on Nov 1, 2008.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
alfa164
Posts: 2913
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Mon May 27, 2019 9:23 pm

The99Percent wrote:
I personally hate DXB as a connection since the airport is always crowded and feels like a shopping mall more than an airport. The entire airport feels way too shiny and bling-ey!


The first time I stepped into the new terminal at DXB, I thought I was in Las Vegas.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
flyer56
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:46 pm

Re: Delta to serve Mumbai nonstop in 2019

Tue May 28, 2019 10:00 am

iyerhari wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
iyerhari wrote:
DL is a solid carrier and has a good reputation in India.


On what basis? When was the last time they were even in India?

Please read the article - https://www.travelcodex.com/the-challen ... -figures2/

There is some interesting info on the history of carriers to and from India. The US POS to BOM may be still good. How well it is in BOM to US - I do not know.



Thanks for posting the link, but I want to point out the article says DL at its peak operated 132 daily flights out of FRA whereas the link it contains refers to says 132 weekly departures. Still interesting to see all the fifth freedom markets that DL used to serve out of FRA!
 
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janders
Moderator
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:14 pm

Per AirlineRoute.net frequency reduced to 5x weekly

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ariations/
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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enilria
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:25 pm

janders wrote:
Per AirlineRoute.net frequency reduced to 5x weekly

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ariations/

Will it even start? UA just cancelled.
 
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OA412
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Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:41 pm

enilria wrote:
janders wrote:
Per AirlineRoute.net frequency reduced to 5x weekly

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ariations/

Will it even start? UA just cancelled.

This is not a permanent reduction. Per the link, the reduction is in effect for a little over a month (March 29 to May 3).
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
TW870
Posts: 984
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:57 pm

enilria wrote:
janders wrote:
Per AirlineRoute.net frequency reduced to 5x weekly

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ariations/

Will it even start? UA just cancelled.


Way too early to tell. UA is suspending for immediate operational safety reasons given that the drone shootdown was less than 24 hours ago. Clearly they feel like they need to assess the international situation before putting an airplane over Iran. December is a long time away in diplomatic time. Hoping to god for everyone that this is quickly resolved and that it immediately de-escalates. If not, the implications will be far, far wider and graver than just the JFK/EWR-BOM airline market.
 
davescj
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:46 am

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:34 am

enilria wrote:
janders wrote:
Per AirlineRoute.net frequency reduced to 5x weekly

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ariations/

Will it even start? UA just cancelled.


I do wonder what will happen with the tensions rising in Iran. I cannot imagine this is a place or time that any airline wants to take too great a risk.
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9483
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: UPDATED: Delta announces JFK-BOM

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:47 pm

TW870 wrote:
enilria wrote:
janders wrote:
Per AirlineRoute.net frequency reduced to 5x weekly

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ariations/

Will it even start? UA just cancelled.


Way too early to tell. UA is suspending for immediate operational safety reasons given that the drone shootdown was less than 24 hours ago. Clearly they feel like they need to assess the international situation before putting an airplane over Iran. December is a long time away in diplomatic time. Hoping to god for everyone that this is quickly resolved and that it immediately de-escalates. If not, the implications will be far, far wider and graver than just the JFK/EWR-BOM airline market.

There is no resumption date, though. They could have kept the bookings for JAN, for example.

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