TW870 wrote:

enilria wrote:

janders wrote:

Per AirlineRoute.net frequency reduced to 5x weekly

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ariations/

Will it even start? UA just cancelled.

Way too early to tell. UA is suspending for immediate operational safety reasons given that the drone shootdown was less than 24 hours ago. Clearly they feel like they need to assess the international situation before putting an airplane over Iran. December is a long time away in diplomatic time. Hoping to god for everyone that this is quickly resolved and that it immediately de-escalates. If not, the implications will be far, far wider and graver than just the JFK/EWR-BOM airline market.

There is no resumption date, though. They could have kept the bookings for JAN, for example.

enilria wrote:

TW870 wrote:

enilria wrote:

Will it even start? UA just cancelled.

Way too early to tell. UA is suspending for immediate operational safety reasons given that the drone shootdown was less than 24 hours ago. Clearly they feel like they need to assess the international situation before putting an airplane over Iran. December is a long time away in diplomatic time. Hoping to god for everyone that this is quickly resolved and that it immediately de-escalates. If not, the implications will be far, far wider and graver than just the JFK/EWR-BOM airline market.

There is no resumption date, though. They could have kept the bookings for JAN, for example.

I'm going to say it won't happen. Tensions between the U.S. and Iran are growing, and in other threads the discussion of the economics of flying to India from NYC without overflying India or Pakistan make the route unsustainable.

enilria wrote:

There is no resumption date, though. They could have kept the bookings for JAN, for example.

No there is no resumption date, just looking at the news this morning the US was going to attack Iran but called it off.
If (God forbid) war does break out between the US and Iran there is no way with out Pakistani airspace UA, DL, or AI would be able to operate nonstop flights between the US and India profitability . Since UA has no idea when Pakistan will fully reopen their airspace to traffic to/from India and no one has any idea what going to happen between the US and Iran the best option for now it to take it off the books. While we all hope things will calm down in that region no one can say with any certainty what going to happen. A flight plan over Iraq from the US to India is not sustainable long term and the return leg BOM-EWR can't be operated nonstop when it has to overfly Dubai and Iraq because the flight plan exceed CCO before you ever take off.

So what's the latest on this?

Spiderguy252 wrote:

So what's the latest on this?

I don't think anything has changed really. Except probably the reduction to 5x weekly. A lot of people on this forum have made spectacularly wrong predictions regarding the whole UA to India, DL to India, Pakistan Airspace, Iran overflight situation so I wouldn't really hold my breath for anything unless its an official communication. Pakistan Airspace is now open, UA to BOM and DEL are resuming in Sept so US to India flights really have no problem now. AI has already started making full use of that and are back to the pre-Feb routings and soon with the same timings.

The flight was originally ATL-BOM if the state of GA renewed a jet fuel tax exemption. Since GA allowed the lapse and didn't renew they decide to place the flight at JFK instead. This is a shaky flight from the get go. If a fuel tax made it unprofitable out of ATL and now they dropped to 5X a week out of JFK. If this flight last 12-18 months it would be a miracle.

mackdad wrote:

The flight was originally ATL-BOM if the state of GA renewed a jet fuel tax exemption. Since GA allowed the lapse and didn't renew they decide to place the flight at JFK instead.

Source?

airboss787 wrote:

Spiderguy252 wrote:

So what's the latest on this?

I don't think anything has changed really. Except probably the reduction to 5x weekly. A lot of people on this forum have made spectacularly wrong predictions regarding the whole UA to India, DL to India, Pakistan Airspace, Iran overflight situation so I wouldn't really hold my breath for anything unless its an official communication. Pakistan Airspace is now open, UA to BOM and DEL are resuming in Sept so US to India flights really have no problem now. AI has already started making full use of that and are back to the pre-Feb routings and soon with the same timings.

DL had it as 5 weekly once the busy winter rush ended in January. So don't think the 5X happened because of something not originally planned (like because of tension or poor bookings). Probably based on aircraft availability PLUS DL wanting to ramp up. I think that makes total sense. DL, AF, KL, VS have super stepped up their game in India. It is clear they don't want to lose the good will they got from 9W pax connecting to them for the EU-US segments. Good for them. You can't fight the ME3 by not flying to India. In the end, pain in India has a disproportionate affect on the ME3 because the ME3 could suck away premium pax due to the lack of a strong local airline. If the ME3 lose the premium pax, alliance captive professionals, business pax that have to fly Y, they are left with price shoppers paying $750 to fly JFK-BOM - good luck with that.

Out of the ME3 only EK and QR are viable, EY is not doing so well anyway. So we may start calling them ME2. If DL can get a strong partner in BOM for service to smaller cities (which EK or QR do not serve, and there are quite a few), then it will be bonus. There is enough premium traffic and regular traffic from JFK to BOM to make is reasonably profitable.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

DL had it as 5 weekly once the busy winter rush ended in January. So don't think the 5X happened because of something not originally planned (like because of tension or poor bookings)..

I believe that is correct. The weekend the flight went on sale, I checked for dates in March and April 2020 and they were already loaded as 5x weekly. Also the press release only mentioned year-round nonstop but “daily” was explicitly missing...

hohd wrote:

Out of the ME3 only EK and QR are viable, EY is not doing so well anyway. So we may start calling them ME2. If DL can get a strong partner in BOM for service to smaller cities (which EK or QR do not serve, and there are quite a few), then it will be bonus. There is enough premium traffic and regular traffic from JFK to BOM to make is reasonably profitable.

I would argue that only EK survives in the long run. With EY merging into EK when they move to DWC. QR is probably going to fade into the shadow of TK and EK eventually.

hohd wrote:

If DL can get a strong partner in BOM for service to smaller cities (which EK or QR do not serve, and there are quite a few), then it will be bonus.

Who would that be? Seriously. What Indian carrier isn't already aligned, serves the destinations you have in mind, and is ready with interline ticketing & baggage to a full-service carrier?

CaliguyNYC wrote:

DL, AF, KL, VS have super stepped up their game in India. It is clear they don't want to lose the good will they got from 9W pax connecting to them for the EU-US segments. Good for them.

Flew AF to India in late 2017 and their A332s and 77Ws used on the DEL route had the old, hideous non-lie-flat J seat. AF'd better have now their latest product, or the disparity in business class hard products among the partners will be a liability!

xwb777 wrote:

Fingers crossed for DTW - DXB

Fingers crossed.

Delta should also operate flights between New York JFK and Kolkata, which would provide access to Eastern India.

Seems cargo community looking forward to DL new flight launching Sunday

The new daily service is expected to benefit Delta’s cargo business thanks to significant interest for imports into and exports from India. Key exports from India including pharmaceutical products, automobile parts, courier shipments and general cargo.
“This is an exciting new route for us and the extensive connections from New York really plays to our network strength in the U.S providing customers with significant opportunities for import and export in a market that is seeing huge growth,” said Gonzalo Hernandez, Delta cargo sales, EMEAI. “India has been the missing piece of our cargo portfolio and we are receiving a warm welcome back into the market from our customers and partners.”

https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/delt ... ng-dec-22/

ArchGuy1 wrote:

Delta should also operate flights between New York JFK and Kolkata, which would provide access to Eastern India.

The big Euro airlines don't even fly to CCU these days, presumably due to low yields/lack of business traffic. Something very significant would need to change in Kolkata before a U.S. airline considers flying there. Let's see one of the US3 start up BLR first...

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 882457.cms
Inter line with Vistara and Air India.

changyou wrote:

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/delta-air-lines-to-start-direct-india-flights-has-signed-pact-with-vistara/articleshow/72882457.cms
Inter line with Vistara and Air India.

My relative will be thrilled to hear that!

FSDan wrote:

ArchGuy1 wrote:

Delta should also operate flights between New York JFK and Kolkata, which would provide access to Eastern India.

The big Euro airlines don't even fly to CCU these days, presumably due to low yields/lack of business traffic. Something very significant would need to change in Kolkata before a U.S. airline considers flying there. Let's see one of the US3 start up BLR first...

The EU airlines left mostly because of low yield business traffic. However, things have changed significantly in the last few years. I actually ran a few bookings in Y and J from AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/ZRH to CCU and fares were consistently 50-100% higher on 1 stops and 2 stops compared to 1 stop and non-stop to DEL/BOM. There is definitely room for at least 1 non-stop to mainland EU if not two.

sabby wrote:

FSDan wrote:

ArchGuy1 wrote:

Delta should also operate flights between New York JFK and Kolkata, which would provide access to Eastern India.

The big Euro airlines don't even fly to CCU these days, presumably due to low yields/lack of business traffic. Something very significant would need to change in Kolkata before a U.S. airline considers flying there. Let's see one of the US3 start up BLR first...

The EU airlines left mostly because of low yield business traffic. However, things have changed significantly in the last few years. I actually ran a few bookings in Y and J from AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/ZRH to CCU and fares were consistently 50-100% higher on 1 stops and 2 stops compared to 1 stop and non-stop to DEL/BOM. There is definitely room for at least 1 non-stop to mainland EU if not two.

You are probably right. Ideally an Indian carrier with local CCU business contracts and a tie in to a global alliance would be perfect. The issue EU airlines have in CCU is their lack of local contracts. US and EU origin business traffic isn’t really there. What ever premium demand is in CCU (and there is), is CCU origin.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

sabby wrote:

FSDan wrote:

The big Euro airlines don't even fly to CCU these days, presumably due to low yields/lack of business traffic. Something very significant would need to change in Kolkata before a U.S. airline considers flying there. Let's see one of the US3 start up BLR first...

The EU airlines left mostly because of low yield business traffic. However, things have changed significantly in the last few years. I actually ran a few bookings in Y and J from AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/ZRH to CCU and fares were consistently 50-100% higher on 1 stops and 2 stops compared to 1 stop and non-stop to DEL/BOM. There is definitely room for at least 1 non-stop to mainland EU if not two.

You are probably right. Ideally an Indian carrier with local CCU business contracts and a tie in to a global alliance would be perfect. The issue EU airlines have in CCU is their lack of local contracts. US and EU origin business traffic isn’t really there. What ever premium demand is in CCU (and there is), is CCU origin.

Yes, agree wholeheartedly. The main problem is fragmentation. The nature of traffic is a bit volatile so the guaranteed contracts are not available.

According to FlightAware https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL24 The Inaugural Delta JFK-BOM Starts Tomorrow. Any A.net members that are going to be booked on that flight?

Bom,Syd & JoBerg are really the only routes in DAL system where the range and capabilities of the B77L are used at its Max.....should be interesting to see if this route becomes a success and allows DAL to explore other destinations within INDIA

The 77L is also on ATL-PVG even though it can be flown by the 77E. The reason is to maximize the high yield cargo coming out of PVG (Shanghai, China) which includes electronics without their batteries (e.g. cell phones/tablets) and PVG is such a transit hub (and so is ICN with even higher yield electronics cargo). The cargo coming out of BOM would be textiles and general mail.

Didn't realize PVG was so cargo heavy.....all in all B77L is worth its weight in heavy lifting long distances

x1234 wrote:

The 77L is also on ATL-PVG even though it can be flown by the 77E. The reason is to maximize the high yield cargo coming out of PVG (Shanghai, China) which includes electronics without their batteries (e.g. cell phones/tablets) and PVG is such a transit hub (and so is ICN with even higher yield electronics cargo). The cargo coming out of BOM would be textiles and general mail.

x1234 wrote:

The 77L is also on ATL-PVG even though it can be flown by the 77E. The reason is to maximize the high yield cargo coming out of PVG (Shanghai, China) which includes electronics without their batteries (e.g. cell phones/tablets) and PVG is such a transit hub (and so is ICN with even higher yield electronics cargo). The cargo coming out of BOM would be textiles and general mail.

None of that post makes sense.

Why without batteries ?

x1234 wrote:

The 77L is also on ATL-PVG even though it can be flown by the 77E. The reason is to maximize the high yield cargo coming out of PVG (Shanghai, China) which includes electronics without their batteries (e.g. cell phones/tablets) and PVG is such a transit hub (and so is ICN with even higher yield electronics cargo). The cargo coming out of BOM would be textiles and general mail.

You forgot pharma and courier/express material on the inbound. Outbound from JFK to BOM can be general cargo, pharma, express/courier.

TropicalSky wrote:

Bom,Syd & JoBerg are really the only routes in DAL system where the range and capabilities of the B77L are used at its Max.....should be interesting to see if this route becomes a success and allows DAL to explore other destinations within INDIA

Have to remember ATL-DXB was ran on 77L over the years, along with ATL-ICN which moved to A350.

Why is this so exciting? They flew it before.

zeke wrote:

x1234 wrote:

The 77L is also on ATL-PVG even though it can be flown by the 77E. The reason is to maximize the high yield cargo coming out of PVG (Shanghai, China) which includes electronics without their batteries (e.g. cell phones/tablets) and PVG is such a transit hub (and so is ICN with even higher yield electronics cargo). The cargo coming out of BOM would be textiles and general mail.

None of that post makes sense.

Why without batteries ?

The post made sense to me. I assumed the poster meant no lithium ion batteries because of fire risk. Same reason the make that announcement on flights in the U.S. (and perhaps other places) that if you gate check your bag, you need to take extra laptop and phone batteries out of the checked bag.

My bigger question is why air cargo would be an efficient way to ship phones and laptops. I would think a container ship would be far more cost effective, as laptop and phone shipping is not time sensitive enough to justify the much higher cost of air cargo.

TW870 wrote:

My bigger question is why air cargo would be an efficient way to ship phones and laptops. I would think a container ship would be far more cost effective, as laptop and phone shipping is not time sensitive enough to justify the much higher cost of air cargo.

I have that question as well, but know that some absolutely massive proportion of iPhones sold in the US are shipped via air predominantly from CAN over ANC and then onward to the United States.

x1234 wrote:

The 77L is also on ATL-PVG even though it can be flown by the 77E. The reason is to maximize the high yield cargo coming out of PVG (Shanghai, China) which includes electronics without their batteries (e.g. cell phones/tablets) and PVG is such a transit hub (and so is ICN with even higher yield electronics cargo). The cargo coming out of BOM would be textiles and general mail.

are you forgetting about the trade war that has just decimated the cargo yields? These things are not high yielding with this much TPAC capacity in the current trade environment.

zeke wrote:

x1234 wrote:

The 77L is also on ATL-PVG even though it can be flown by the 77E. The reason is to maximize the high yield cargo coming out of PVG (Shanghai, China) which includes electronics without their batteries (e.g. cell phones/tablets) and PVG is such a transit hub (and so is ICN with even higher yield electronics cargo). The cargo coming out of BOM would be textiles and general mail.

None of that post makes sense.

Why without batteries ?

US carriers have outlawed the carriage of lithium ion batteries as shipment. And as another poster said if you check a bag that has a device it the battery must be removed.

Anyone knows how the forward bookings looking in terms of load factor ?

Cointrin330 wrote:

Why is this so exciting? They flew it before.

I would say that any long haul route flown by DL that isn’t to a JV partner hub is pretty exciting and rare these days.

It would be interesting to see how the forward booking looks like after new year season. As travel alert is in place.

https://in.usembassy.gov/travel-alert-f ... es-121319/

TTailedTiger wrote:

Did they do an equipment sub on a regularly scheduled ATL-JFK flight or did they operate an extra section to position the 77L at JFK?

According to FlightAware, DL is running the 77L instead of a 717 on DL244, ATL-JFK, on Monday and Tuesday to rotate the frames in.

Oilman wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

Did they do an equipment sub on a regularly scheduled ATL-JFK flight or did they operate an extra section to position the 77L at JFK?

According to FlightAware, DL is running the 77L instead of a 717 on DL244, ATL-JFK, on Monday and Tuesday to rotate the frames in.

I didn't even know DL ran a 717 on ATL-JFK.

So I just flew the refurbished 764 (I know the 77L has doors), but the interior in J was excellent. The DL JFK-BOM route will take time to develop. The India side will need word of mouth and travel agents to spread good things about the DL planes (people still remember those nasty old planes they flew to BOM before). I hope DL doesn’t screw up the food on the flight. Just flew KL AMS-BOM there was only an indian veg option on the menu (no indian meat option) and they ran out of the indian veg by the time they got to me. I order DL’s Hindu or Asian Veg meal every fourth flight to just give me variety (on domestic and US-EU flights). I have to say DL has done two downgrades there - one made the ASian Veg and Hindu meals both veg with all the apps Vegan (why? Other than costs) and they literally serve the exact same Asian veg option on every flight for years (yes for years). Let’s hope JFK catering (my home airport) improves with the BOM flight. The current J class Asian Veg/Hindu option is edible but is not up to the standards of many airlines flying to India. The one thing going for DL is their staff. India flights can be demanding, and I always find DL’s crew to smile and be friendly (essential on India flights IMHO)

Ammad wrote:

It would be interesting to see how the forward booking looks like after new year season. As travel alert is in place.

https://in.usembassy.gov/travel-alert-f ... es-121319/

Travel alerts are generally useless. I live in the US. Do you know how many countries advise their citizens against traveling to the US?

CaliguyNYC wrote:

The India side will need word of mouth and travel agents to spread good things about the DL planes (people still remember those nasty old planes they flew to BOM before).

Which “nasty old planes” did Delta previously fly to BOM?

questions wrote:

CaliguyNYC wrote:

The India side will need word of mouth and travel agents to spread good things about the DL planes (people still remember those nasty old planes they flew to BOM before).

Which “nasty old planes” did Delta previously fly to BOM?

767s from 2009 to 2015

I feel to be more successful in the long run , DL should allow India side connections for this flight .
I don't know how far DL interline with Vistara has gone ( as it appeared in the news recently) but as I just tried a random search for HYD-BOM-JFK , this flight wasn't shown in the booking option.
Having JFK side connections won't be of any good given that people generally prefer travelling via EU or ME from India to USA than via any US airport.

TW870 wrote:

The post made sense to me. I assumed the poster meant no lithium ion batteries because of fire risk. Same reason the make that announcement on flights in the U.S. (and perhaps other places) that if you gate check your bag, you need to take extra laptop and phone batteries out of the checked bag.

My bigger question is why air cargo would be an efficient way to ship phones and laptops. I would think a container ship would be far more cost effective, as laptop and phone shipping is not time sensitive enough to justify the much higher cost of air cargo.

There is a difference between lithium ion and lithium metal batteries, and the carriage of batteries in equipment compared to carriage of just batteries.

IATA have lithium metal batteries banned from carriage by air, lithium ion batteries contained within equipment are permitted on passenger and cargo flights. Lithium ion batteries not contained in equipment permitted on cargo only aircraft.

For passengers spare batteries need to be carried onboard so they can be accessed in flight should they malfunction.

According to Delta Cargo they can carry lithium
Ion batteries contained within equipment

“UN3091 Lithium Metal Batteries Contained in Equipment and UN3091 Lithium Metal Batteries Packed with Equipment
Section 1: These shipments are considered fully regulated and must comply with all requirements including those in Packing Instruction 970 (Contained in) and Packing Instruction 969 (Packed with) and must be accompanied by a Shipper’s Declaration for Dangerous Goods.
Section 2: Approved for transportation as long as the following requirements have been met:
Applicable cautionary verbiage on the air waybill or accompanying document per the Packing Instructions.
Lithium battery label must be applied to the package per the Packing Instructions (PI).
For PI 970: Each package containing more than four cells or more than two batteries installed in equipment must be labeled with a lithium battery handling label.
For PI 969: A lithium battery label must be applied.
Packaged per Packing Instruction 970 or 969, whichever applies.
"Lithium metal batteries in compliance with Section II of PI 970 or PI 969" must be included on the air waybill, when an air waybill is used. The information should be shown in the "Nature and Quantity of Goods" box of the air waybill.“

From https://www.deltacargo.com/Cargo/catalo ... rous-goods

According to FlightAware N703DN will operate the Inaugural Delta JFK-BOM Tomorrow.

cha747 wrote:

Ammad wrote:

It would be interesting to see how the forward booking looks like after new year season. As travel alert is in place.

https://in.usembassy.gov/travel-alert-f ... es-121319/

Travel alerts are generally useless. I live in the US. Do you know how many countries advise their citizens against traveling to the US?

This. Besides, the US has travel advisories and alerts for what I'm pretty sure amounts to like 80% of the world's countries.

binayak wrote:

questions wrote:

CaliguyNYC wrote:

The India side will need word of mouth and travel agents to spread good things about the DL planes (people still remember those nasty old planes they flew to BOM before).

Which “nasty old planes” did Delta previously fly to BOM?

767s from 2009 to 2015

Bingo. The NW A330s were better but didn’t fly the route as DL that much. The only negative of the 77L is that the economy comfort section is very large. There really isn’t a culture on the indian side of buying extra legroom. I wonder if a full Y seating chart might discourage people from buying Y (assuming DL will sell Y seats knowing they will just upgrade people Econ comfort). Btw it looks like Y pax will get 2 X 50lbs bags for free btw India and US. So bag allowance shouldn’t be an issue vs EY, EK.