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conaly
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Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 8:45 am

Not sure if this has been discussed before but I didn't find a thread for that, so:

According to airliners.de, Thomas Cook has plans to replace the aging 767 fleet of Condor with younger used aircraft and also with brand new ones. As it is not mentioned, what their plan with the used aircraft is, the new order would be either A330(neo) or 787 with delivery from 2021. While the order is mainly for Condor, Thomas Cook UK and Thomas Cook Scandinavia may also get a part of it. They final decision will be made in 2018.

Seems about time. Condor's 767 aircraft a between 17 and 27 years old, and from winter 2018 they will also lease three A330 from Air Transat. My guess for the new aircraft would also be the A330neo, as they already use A330 in UK and Scandinavia, so it would be a plausible choice. And I'm not sure, whether Dreamliners would be available by 2021, as Boeing still has a huge backlog of orders with the 787.

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FatCat
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 8:45 am

Yes I'm on the 330s too.
They already have trained crews, and fleet commonality.
I always hope to see the LH 346s with Condor livery, but it ain't gonna happen.
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LTU932
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 8:56 am

About time that DE starts renewing their widebody fleet. Sure, the 767 has served them well since they got rid of the DC-10s but it's time to get new aircraft.

The A330NEO or perhaps a 787-9 would probably be indeed a good fit for DE. An A350 may be somewhat overkill though.
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imthedreamliner
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 9:30 am

99% A330neo

If Boeing can somehow sell Dreamliner, I will call it a miracle.

Another battleground for Dreamliner vs A330neo
 
columba
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 9:31 am

Hoping for 787s would be nice to have them in Germany but I fear it will be the all around A330 :-(
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Someone83
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 10:54 am

imthedreamliner wrote:
99% A330neo

If Boeing can somehow sell Dreamliner, I will call it a miracle.

Another battleground for Dreamliner vs A330neo


Well, they could also go for used aircraft
 
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seahawk
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 11:01 am

787s would be awesome. But finding used ones will be difficult.
 
FatCat
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 11:02 am

Sure, they may lease / buy some 333s and fill up some order for neos with delivery in the next years.
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JamesCousins
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 11:17 am

Whilst I love flying the 787, and Boeing's sales team seem to be on a role atm, I just can't see it happening. AFAIK the airline uses the same crews across their A320 series and A330's, and fleet commonality has to play a huge part, especially for smaller operating bases (e.g. STN & BHX)

The only slight curve ball to note is that the 2 major long haul competitors of the Condor/Thomas Cook airlines are Norwegian and TUI, who both operate large 787 fleets. Only time will tell, but my money's on the A330neo and some used A330s.
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY // Upcoming: EVA 77W, AS A320, VS 787-9, VS A35K, BE E175, KLM E190, KLM 738, LS 737
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 pm

used 330s....
 
Jerry123
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 2:01 pm

Can't see them getting 787s, theyll want commonality in the fleet. Eventually I see Condor becoming all Airbus short haul as well.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 2:54 pm

The A321LR would seem like a great aircraft for them too. Routes like YHZ-FRA could go from 4x weekly 763 to daily 321.
 
NolaMD88fan
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 2:57 pm

A330NEO will be the most likely candidate. Fleet commonality as mentioned above being the main reason. Glad to see some investment in DE long-haul. The 767-300s are getting a bit long in the tooth. Still serviceable, but showing their age.
 
NG263
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 3:00 pm

According to rumours there won't be an order for new aircraft because this is simply too expensive. I would rather expect used B787s (and also hope for that) but let's see what happens. But I hope for a decision as soon as possible because the older 767's won't be flying forever and getting used 767's now is harder than ever due to the growing cargo market.
 
travaz
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 3:31 pm

Have there been any used 787's come on the market? I think ANA has the oldest 787's. I don't see them getting rid of any. IF IAG were to buy DY that could lead to some slots at Boeing or IAG dumping some aircraft.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 3:50 pm

The article says that the DE B763 fleet will be replaced, but I'd be surprised if the MT and DK fleet aren't also replaced, for a total of 28 planes needing replacement (16 B763s, 7 A332s on its own AOCs, 3 A333s on the DK AOC, and 2 A332s on the AirTanker AOC). Most of those A330s are ripe for replacement as well. I know that they have the A330, but I see the B789 as the likely replacement...going for the upset. As for acquisitions, does half-owned, half-leased (with an option to buy) sound about right, given that I expect that these planes will be in the fleet for close to 30 years?
 
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Channex757
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 5:37 pm

My guess?

A330NEO, and at the same time Thomas Cook renames all their flying divisions as Condor. Condor UK will be the new name of MT, and TCX units in other locations will follow.

This will give huge extra impetus to the longhaul operation as Thomas Cook is still regarded as a holiday company. Condor will look and sound like a standalone airline and attract passengers away from the legacies.

I really don't care. I just want the airline(s) to succeed and operate as a more integrated unit.
 
georgiabill
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Mon May 28, 2018 5:39 pm

I know the CEO didn't include the 772ER as a possible option. Would Thomas Cook consider the 777? Is it to much aircraft in terms or capacity or operating costs preventing the purchase? Should SQ continue to retire their fleet would they be a possibility?
 
columba
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 6:46 am

Somebody on a German site is being quoted that the contracts for 5 787s are already at the bank but the source is said not to be very reliable.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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rosecityspotter
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 7:42 am

georgiabill wrote:
I know the CEO didn't include the 772ER as a possible option. Would Thomas Cook consider the 777? Is it to much aircraft in terms or capacity or operating costs preventing the purchase? Should SQ continue to retire their fleet would they be a possibility?



Boeing isn't even building 772ER's at the moment. Doesn't mean they couldn't build more, however... Would be interesting to see them coming off the line again.
 
Andy33
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 8:35 am

rosecityspotter wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
I know the CEO didn't include the 772ER as a possible option. Would Thomas Cook consider the 777? Is it to much aircraft in terms or capacity or operating costs preventing the purchase? Should SQ continue to retire their fleet would they be a possibility?



Boeing isn't even building 772ER's at the moment. Doesn't mean they couldn't build more, however... Would be interesting to see them coming off the line again.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've even offered 772ERs for several years now. LRs maybe, but not ERs. And with the ongoing conversion of the 777 lines to produce 77Xs, I doubt if they have the capacity or the wish to produce any.
 
ba319-131
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 8:52 am

Used A330’s seem the safest bet here.
111 732 733 734 735 736 73G 738 739,7M8 BBJ 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 764 772 77L 773 77W L15 D10 D30 D40 AB3 AB6 312 313 318 319 320 20N 321 21N 332 333 342 343 345 346 359 351 388 CS1 CS3 I86 154 SSJ CRJ CR7 CR9 CRK 145 170 175 220
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 9:15 am

rosecityspotter wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
I know the CEO didn't include the 772ER as a possible option. Would Thomas Cook consider the 777? Is it to much aircraft in terms or capacity or operating costs preventing the purchase? Should SQ continue to retire their fleet would they be a possibility?



Boeing isn't even building 772ER's at the moment. Doesn't mean they couldn't build more, however... Would be interesting to see them coming off the line again.

The did already give the answer where these 77Es could be possibly sourced = used from SQ, not new from Boeing.

But it's very unlikely that they will opt for this solution, ordering more A330s (new or used) or go 787 will be more future proof options.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 9:26 am

MrHMSH wrote:
seahawk wrote:
787s would be awesome. But finding used ones will be difficult.


Is there ever a time when you think the 787 might not be the best option for an airline?


Only when they are looking at single aisle options, then I recommend the 737. :D
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 9:28 am

seahawk wrote:
787s would be awesome. But finding used ones will be difficult.


Is there ever a time when you think the 787 might not be the best option for an airline?
 
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Channex757
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 9:51 am

If TCX take the A330NEO then it's entirely possible that they will come from the orderbook of a number of lessors. It's also possible that it will be linked to AirTanker taking additional aircraft.

The practice of using AirTanker as additional capacity in summer is very attractive to a company that gets so much of its revenue from the holiday trade. In fact AirTanker could have placed another aircraft easily this summer at Jet2 for just the same purpose. TCX or DE could easily absorb another two surge aircraft in their busy holiday seasons.
 
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OA940
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 10:43 am

I think they would be more likely to go 788 than 339 since it's closer in capacity to the 763 and 332, and the 338 is dead in the water. I would love to see either aircraft in that livery tho.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 11:34 am

I had the Thomas Cook Group in mind for the A330neo for some time, so I'd be surprised if they didn't go for this aircraft given the large Airbus fleet already in use and given that Thomas Cook UK/Scandinavia already use A330's. I'd say it would have to be a "too good to turn down" deal from Boeing to get this with training included. This could also be a perfect airline for the A330-800 as the -900's capacity isn't needed on all routes, plus Thomas Cook UK reduced the density on some of their A332's a few years ago from 9-abreast to 8-abreast.

A bulk order for placement across all the group's airlines would surely command better pricing than a smaller order for one airline within the group, plus we see how Thomas Cook have been moving aircraft around the group's airlines to cope with seasonal demand. They've been able to do this with the A321's, the 757-300's have moved between TC UK and Condor and likewise with TC UK's 767's before they finally got rid of them, so one type would make this process much easier.

I wouldn't rule out used aircraft in some form as Thomas Cook have been doing this to expand the UK A330 fleet, but it depends on availability. I'd also be curious to know where sufficient quantities of used 787's are going to come from any time soon?

Whatever is ordered, I expect them to go to Condor first given the 767's are older than the A330's, though some of the UK's A330's date back to 1999 when Airtours first took delivery of them.
 
CRJ900
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 12:06 pm

How is the secondhand market for A330-200s? As the A333 has improved in so many ways, the A332s have become a tad obsolete...

One-class 350-seat A332 with 8-abreast seating and range for Europe-Caribbean should be quite good for charter carriers.
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Bricktop
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 12:13 pm

There's not likely going to be any used 787's any time soon. Used A330ceo seems far more likely. As far as new frames, Airbus could really use a win for the A330neo, but I have no idea how many of the frames that have been sold to lessors have been placed yet. It would be bad form indeed for Airbus to undercut the lessors with new production, but some juggling may be possible.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 1:03 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
How is the secondhand market for A330-200s? As the A333 has improved in so many ways, the A332s have become a tad obsolete...

One-class 350-seat A332 with 8-abreast seating and range for Europe-Caribbean should be quite good for charter carriers.


Right now, the A332s are W49Y273, or Y321.

As for a source, I wonder if Hi Fly could be a source as a dry-lessor, as they have orders for 10 A339neos. (They already have 2 A332s being built to be leased to Nepal Airlines.)
 
raylee67
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 1:29 pm

Airbus should really be desperate enough to cut down the price on the A330NEO now, especially if it means selling some -800 to Thomas Cook.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
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Jayafe
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 3:36 pm

imthedreamliner wrote:
...If Boeing can somehow sell Dreamliner, I will call it a miracle....


I would call it dumping. They would call it "business as usual".
 
FlyingColours
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 4:02 pm

Channex757 wrote:
My guess?

A330NEO, and at the same time Thomas Cook renames all their flying divisions as Condor. Condor UK will be the new name of MT, and TCX units in other locations will follow.

This will give huge extra impetus to the longhaul operation as Thomas Cook is still regarded as a holiday company. Condor will look and sound like a standalone airline and attract passengers away from the legacies.

I really don't care. I just want the airline(s) to succeed and operate as a more integrated unit.


My thoughts too, I also find it a little bit more than Ironic that Thomas Cook, having been the one to start this whole "name the airline after the tour operator" lark with JMC has appeared to start getting ready to backtrack and distance itself brand wise, though of course the market is totally different to how it was in 2004... I have spoke to a few folks who say they want to fly to the US (JFK and SFO) but don't want to fly Thomas Cook as it's not particularly "glamorous", shallow punters aside Condor would definitely be a better name although "Flying Colours" would be better ;)

Incidentally Flying Colours were looking at the 777 when they were partnering up with BA to do their Caribbean and low yield longhaul routes but BA's pilots union booted that one out pretty quick...

Phil
FlyingColours
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mullac30
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 5:06 pm

FlyingColours wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
My guess?

A330NEO, and at the same time Thomas Cook renames all their flying divisions as Condor. Condor UK will be the new name of MT, and TCX units in other locations will follow.

This will give huge extra impetus to the longhaul operation as Thomas Cook is still regarded as a holiday company. Condor will look and sound like a standalone airline and attract passengers away from the legacies.

I really don't care. I just want the airline(s) to succeed and operate as a more integrated unit.


My thoughts too, I also find it a little bit more than Ironic that Thomas Cook, having been the one to start this whole "name the airline after the tour operator" lark with JMC has appeared to start getting ready to backtrack and distance itself brand wise, though of course the market is totally different to how it was in 2004... I have spoke to a few folks who say they want to fly to the US (JFK and SFO) but don't want to fly Thomas Cook as it's not particularly "glamorous", shallow punters aside Condor would definitely be a better name although "Flying Colours" would be better ;)

Incidentally Flying Colours were looking at the 777 when they were partnering up with BA to do their Caribbean and low yield longhaul routes but BA's pilots union booted that one out pretty quick...

Phil
FlyingColours


Why not keep the short-haul operations as Thomas Cook Airlines, and brand the long-haul ops as something like "Kestrel Airways" after the callsign, as a offshoot of Condor?
 
AvObserver
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Tue May 29, 2018 5:19 pm

Jayafe wrote:
imthedreamliner wrote:
...If Boeinga can somehow sell Dreamliner, I will call it a miracle....


I would call it dumping. They would call it "business as usual".

And you would have no foundation for calling it such, as usual.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Wed May 30, 2018 7:59 am

mullac30 wrote:
Why not keep the short-haul operations as Thomas Cook Airlines, and brand the long-haul ops as something like "Kestrel Airways" after the callsign, as a offshoot of Condor?

Unlike TUI, Thomas Cook has yet to write off its trademark "Condor". It's a name that is well received in at least half of the Thomas Cook business. Why go through the trouble it caused again, when they tried to rebrand Condor as Thomas Cook by Condor?

It makes much more sense to rebrand it all as Condor. In fact with the British business evolving to more scheduled flying it would make sense.

TUI trashed one of the most respected brands in aviation when they killed off Britannia. TCX should not make the same mistake.
 
columba
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Wed May 30, 2018 8:27 am

seahawk wrote:
787s would be awesome. But finding used ones will be difficult.

Maybe the first 787s will come off leases soon......
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
FlyingColours
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Wed May 30, 2018 9:34 am

I think he might have meant just the UK side of the longhaul, I think Condor is a good name and am pretty sure most folks wouldn't realise it's German origin though I'm sure there are some prats out there who will complain...

As you say, Thomas Cook have been burned before with less than popular rebrands, the attempt at rebranding Condor which they ended up reversing after that backfired and let's not forget J.M. Who? Yes I've obviously still got a chip on my shoulder after losing Flying Colours but J.M.C despite their marketing (those adverts were generally pretty good) but it didn't stand out in the public consciousness as it was just three initials, when they rebranded that to Thomas Cook at least everyone (in the UK at least) knew who that was.

Can anyone remember back when First Choice Holidays bought Air 2000 and they had to publicly state that they had no intention of renaming the airline? The market changed and eventually they did, there wasn't exactly an outcry then as the name could have been seen as outdated given we were beyond the Year 2000. There were a few complaints about losing the Britannia to Thomsonfly and their indistinct flying blue condoms and following the merger of Thomsonfly and First Choice there were complaints but they were mostly from the staff (I jumped ship, not a wise move given my airline went bust but crap happens).

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
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seahawk
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Wed May 30, 2018 9:53 am

I think Caledonian Airways would be the perfect brand, as it has a strong British core.
 
FlyingColours
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Wed May 30, 2018 10:06 am

That'll end up going pear shaped if Scotland get their Independence though ;)

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
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Channex757
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Wed May 30, 2018 10:45 am

It would be interesting if Condor UK used the callsign Kestrel!!!!
 
B-HOP
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Re: Thomas Cook / Condor plans for new long range aicraft

Wed May 30, 2018 4:12 pm

Condor would be a good name for the new operations, UK lose many independent operators already, I think some early 788 could have come off lease as more switch to 789, so my money would be a mix of second hand 788 and new 789
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