There are a large number of islands, some with multi-million passenger counts, in the eastern Atlantic, but none has any service from the US3. Why is this?

The Azores, Canary Islands, Cape Verde, etc are all easily within reach from the US east coast with a 757 or even ETOPS 737/320.... DL/UA on EWR/JFK-TFS/PDL/FNC or AA on MIA-RAI seems like a good bet... seeing as how those hubs have so many other destinations like those.

I’d imagine one main reason is that less than 40% of US citizens have passports.The other being that there are plenty of island destinations closer to home or part of the US where passports aren’t needed.

That said, as more MAX and NEO types enter the US3 fleet we very well may see service started in the future.

77H

Delta recently started nonstop service from JFK to PDL (Ponta Delgada - Azores) utilizing the 757 with D1 service. The fight is just under 6 hours.

There have been [mostly tourist charters] to the Canary islands in the past. As others have said, with the dawning of more low-cost, point-to-point flying, it's likely that in the future some connections to the Spanish archipelago will be established.
The Azores are already linked.
Personally I don't think we will see direct flights to either Madeira (one single island with limited appeal for US tourists) or to Cape Verde (again, this is a vacation spot mostly for Europeans).

Someone should open a low cost hub in Gran Canaria for Europe _ South America traffic . Turn it into the KEF of the South

Aren't those destinations a bit like Hawaii - all vacation and no/little business? I can't imagine a large business demand hence I can't imagine airlines scrambling to serve these routes. Follow the money....

Galwayman wrote:

Someone should open a low cost hub in Gran Canaria for Europe _ South America traffic . Turn it into the KEF of the South

To where? Africa? There are very few US flights to the continent. If there was more profit, they could be flying nonstop already. Even African airlines cannot be profitable. I would say most all flights are low yield, with JNB being an exception but even then not sure.

cha747 wrote:

Aren't those destinations a bit like Hawaii - all vacation and no/little business? I can't imagine a large business demand hence I can't imagine airlines scrambling to serve these routes. Follow the money....

As far as I know, yes.... but seeing as how they are closer to the eastern US than Hawaii is.... you'd think the business case could be made for at least 1 flight... compared with the dozens daily to Hawaii.


I didn't know about the DL flight to PDL. Exactly what I was picturing. Thanks for the info!

Also the Canary Islands are at (or even beyond) tourist capacity and there are already moves to cap numbers of tourists to these islands. Local Spanish authorities are not currently exploring new inbound markets for this reason.

Because those are not major tourist destinations for Americans, and have little business link with the US. Just because millions of Europeans vacation there doesn’t mean everyone worldwide goes there.

sspontak wrote:

Delta recently started nonstop service from JFK to PDL (Ponta Delgada - Azores) utilizing the 757 with D1 service. The fight is just under 6 hours.

D1 service but on a "regular" 757? I checked a random date in July and it looks to be a 75P (or G, whatever DL wants to call them now). The inaugural flight a few days ago seemed to be on one was well.

That.

cha747 wrote:

Aren't those destinations a bit like Hawaii - all vacation and no/little business?

That.

77H wrote:

The other being that there are plenty of island destinations closer to home or part of the US...

Tourist areas that are of interest to Europeans aren't necessarily of interest to Americans. In 2013, Guadaloupe got about 500K international visitors. 4,900 (no, I didn't drop a digit) were Americans.

Not that.

77H wrote:

I’d imagine one main reason is that less than 40% of US citizens have passports.

Americans with the money and inclination for international travel have passports.

When we lived in the UK my family and I went to Tenerife for a vacation because it was better weather and much cheaper to go there than take four persons to Brighton or someplace nearby. The staff at the hotel were astonished to find that we were Americans and said "they had never had Americans there." Kind of explains why there are no direct flights from even the eastern US to the Spanish Archipelago.

I was last year in G. Canaria and this year I'll go to Fuerteventura.
I think Canary Islands are way the best value for money leisure destination in Europe by now.
Tourism there is I think 80% German, then all the rest.

jb1087xna wrote:

sspontak wrote:

Delta recently started nonstop service from JFK to PDL (Ponta Delgada - Azores) utilizing the 757 with D1 service. The fight is just under 6 hours.

D1 service but on a "regular" 757? I checked a random date in July and it looks to be a 75P (or G, whatever DL wants to call them now). The inaugural flight a few days ago seemed to be on one was well.

It may not even be D1 service. In looking closer at the itinerary, the premium service is actually called "Premium Select" which is the same service and aircraft type (domestic FC seating) used for the short Reykjavik, Iceland KEF Trans Atlantic service also out of JFK.

If these shorter Trans Atlantic routes are successful, it will be interesting if DL adds similar Domestic 757 layout/Premium Select to additional routes.

EvanWSFO wrote:

Galwayman wrote:

Someone should open a low cost hub in Gran Canaria for Europe _ South America traffic . Turn it into the KEF of the South

To where? Africa? There are very few US flights to the continent. If there was more profit, they could be flying nonstop already. Even African airlines cannot be profitable. I would say most all flights are low yield, with JNB being an exception but even then not sure.

From Europe to South America with smaller aircraft hubbing at LPA . It’s all in the original post.

No need for US flights , revenues are trash, Canaries are full and US3 are uncompetitive ,not worth the hassle

Galwayman wrote:

EvanWSFO wrote:

Galwayman wrote:

Someone should open a low cost hub in Gran Canaria for Europe _ South America traffic . Turn it into the KEF of the South

To where? Africa? There are very few US flights to the continent. If there was more profit, they could be flying nonstop already. Even African airlines cannot be profitable. I would say most all flights are low yield, with JNB being an exception but even then not sure.

From Europe to South America with smaller aircraft hubbing at LPA . It’s all in the original post.

No need for US flights , revenues are trash, Canaries are full and US3 are uncompetitive ,not worth the hassle

I still don't see it happening. KEF is unique in that both Icelandic carriers allow for 7-day stayovers. Unless that happens in Gran Canaria, it doesn't make sense.

Canadians are just starting to trickle in. I just returned from Lanzarote and Gran Canaria, met a few Canadians but no Americans. Easy trip for Canadians, just fly to a major EU hub and hop on a cheap airline, we did Norwegian from MUC. Canaries are incredible, diverse, amazing beaches and towns. We plan to return every few years. For Americans, they have so many resort options close by, we Canadians are used to travelling longer distances for any beach holiday.

Last year we did Tenerife and Gran Canaria and flew YYZ-PDL-LPA on Azores Airlines / Sata.

One of the reasons the USA doesn't see more service to places like Madeira and all the other islands is that it lacks a Thomas Cook or TUI. The truly big package holiday companies that fly to the islands and throw in the hotel and transport.

American tourism is much more domestic or fragmented. I doubt a TCX would work in the USA as it's just too big. Even the European side isn't operating to the entire EU. It just means that flying east was never developed by a charter market.

FatCat wrote:

I was last year in G. Canaria and this year I'll go to Fuerteventura.
I think Canary Islands are way the best value for money leisure destination in Europe by now.
Tourism there is I think 80% German, then all the rest.

Not really, Canarias had 16 million tourists in 2017, the largest nationalities being

1. UK 5.2 million
2. Germany 3.1 million
3. Spain (mainland) 1.6 million

http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/notic ... 5-mas-2016

However islands are somehow split by nationalities. Germans are the 1st tourist group in Gran Canaria, while British are the first in Tenerife. Bear in mind that, when in Spain, British and German tourists do not like to mingle with each other, so tour operators tend to keep them in different hotels or areas... and if it is in different islands, it is much better

US3 target high yield business traffic. Customers who buy 5 figure tickets last minute. Not $50 air fare penny pinching tourists.

Quoting mikejepp (thred starter), "Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?"

I always find it humorous that members of Airliners.net think there should be air service from every city in the world to every other city in the world!
Most folks just throw out the question without ever thinking about the many factors involved--demand from customers; availability of facilities at the destination such as lodging and food; airport infrastructure to include fuel, catering, security, terminal services; support for crew; utilization of crew and aircraft for the particular route, yield, etc. among many other factors.

There is so much more to the planning of service to a new destination than just, "Hey, lets start flying a 777 three times a day from ________ to ________.
I'm sure we can achieve 100 percent load factor and make huge profit doing so."

e38

Tourism and proximity. I've never been to the Azores, but the Canary Islands remind me a lot of the Pacific coast of Mexico. From my home base (DEN), I have a plethora of 2-3 hour nonstop flights to get to the major beach hotspots in Mexico. To get to the Azores or the Canaries it's a minimum of one connection and 10 hours of flying. For most leisure travelers interested more in cost and ease of access it's an easy decision.

Antarius wrote:

EvanWSFO wrote:

I still don't see it happening. KEF is unique in that both Icelandic carriers allow for 7-day stayovers. Unless that happens in Gran Canaria, it doesn't make sense.

KEF is also in a bit of a bubble. Lots of advantages, but it is too new to know whether it is as viable as it is portended to be.

as a result, I hesitate when the next KEF is pitched.

KEF has been working for years with FI. Now that WW is around, I don't know. Am heading through there in the summer. I know the facilities are bursting. There's obviously some attraction to it given the US3 all fly there. I do agree that when someone compares another airport to it, it's a coin toss.

Flighty wrote:

Azores airlines serves BOS-PDL, something I noted last week at Boston.

They've been flying there for years. PVD too until last summer I think. I believe that route is mostly VFR.

oldannyboy wrote:

There have been [mostly tourist charters] to the Canary islands in the past. As others have said, with the dawning of more low-cost, point-to-point flying, it's likely that in the future some connections to the Spanish archipelago will be established.
The Azores are already linked.
Personally I don't think we will see direct flights to either Madeira (one single island with limited appeal for US tourists) or to Cape Verde (again, this is a vacation spot mostly for Europeans).

Madeira has two islands FNC (Funchal) and PXO (Porto Santo), DY can do this route with their 737 MAX or UA with their MAX also...
PXO is an alternate airport when planes cant arrive in FNC due to winds (FNC its one of the most difficult airports in the world to arrive)...

Why no US3 airlines fly to FAO, AGP, SVQ, XRY, LEI, ALC, VLC, PMI, IBZ, MAH in the summer???
Algarve is like california of florida, its the same about these regions...

People saying that americans dont want to go to these islands because of the flight time its just stupid...
Orbest, Evelop and EuroAtlantic Airways do charters LIS/OPO/MAD-CUN and LIS/OPO/MAD-PUJ in the summer (9 hour flight) and does have high pax...
So, after that, why americans dont want to go to Azores, Madeira, Canary, Cape Verde and Balearic islands???

77H wrote:

The other being that there are plenty of island destinations closer to home or part of the US where passports aren’t needed.

I really think that this is actually the main point. I've never been to the Canary islands but I probably just wouldn't even consider it when we have the Caribbean islands within just a few hours of much of the US, and there are very few Caribbean islands where you need a US passport. I'm not sure going to the Canary islands would be different enough for most Americans to bother, or pay the extra cost for the longer flight.

Not to mention the US itself has similar destinations that you can even drive to. Key West, for example (or any of the keys, really). I think this is something that a lot of Europeans don't understand about the US and why so many Americans don't have passports. If your goal is to just go from someplace cold to someplace warm during winter, you don't need to travel internationally at all as you would if you live in, say, Switzerland. You really only need a passport if you specifically want to go to another country to experience a different culture, but that's not why a lot of people travel. A lot of people just want a nice beach.

From the west coast, it's obviously even further to the Canary islands. I think people in the west more often go to Hawaii than the Caribbean, while it's the reverse for people in the east.

Pepper456 wrote:

Why no US3 airlines fly to FAO, AGP, SVQ, XRY, LEI, ALC, VLC, PMI, IBZ, MAH in the summer???
Algarve is like california of florida, its the same about these regions...

DL flies daily from JFK to AGP in summer.

77H wrote:

I’d imagine one main reason is that less than 40% of US citizens have passports.The other being that there are plenty of island destinations closer to home or part of the US where passports aren’t needed.

That said, as more MAX and NEO types enter the US3 fleet we very well may see service started in the future.

77H

really? when will this passport idea finally die?
40% of 300 million = 120 million passports. that's more than the population of most developed countries.
only about 9% of Chinese citizens hold passports... so what?

all those island destinations closer to home, as you say - require passports, save Puerto Rico, Hawaii and USVI .

Its funny how decade of complaints about "obnoxious, ugly American tourists" around the globe (mostly tongue in cheek or at least tolerated) can turn into "Americans don't have passports" on a.net .

passports are not a main reason, and not even *any* reason at all.

spacecadet wrote:

there are very few Caribbean islands where you need a US passport.

seriously, what are you talking about?
the only places in the Caribbean where a passport isn't required are the US territories of Puerto Rico and USVI.

All of those many other sovereign nation islands - Bahamas, DR, Jamaica, on and on and on.... absolutely require a passport. I hope you are not thinking that those countries may let you in (which they might) - but re-entering the US sans passport will present a *major* problem.

passports are being carried by the millions of US tourists who visit the islands, this is a fact.

EvanWSFO wrote:

Flighty wrote:

Azores airlines serves BOS-PDL, something I noted last week at Boston.

They've been flying there for years. PVD too until last summer I think. I believe that route is mostly VFR.

PVD is seasonal, and starting back up 6/8.

SID is a leisure destination for Europeans and has flights from BOS with TACV.
IMHO, sooner than later, UA/DL NYC-TFS/LPA/AGP seasonal might happen.

2travel2know2 wrote:

SID is a leisure destination for Europeans and has flights from BOS with TACV.
IMHO, sooner than later, UA/DL NYC-TFS/LPA/AGP seasonal might happen.

BOS has a pretty large Cabo Verdean diaspora, so most of the traffic is VFR.

FlyHappy wrote:

spacecadet wrote:

there are very few Caribbean islands where you need a US passport.

seriously, what are you talking about?
the only places in the Caribbean where a passport isn't required are the US territories of Puerto Rico and USVI.

All of those many other sovereign nation islands - Bahamas, DR, Jamaica, on and on and on.... absolutely require a passport. I hope you are not thinking that those countries may let you in (which they might) - but re-entering the US sans passport will present a *major* problem.

passports are being carried by the millions of US tourists who visit the islands, this is a fact.

This and your previous post are absolutely spot on, isn't unbelievable how many ignorant and ill informed people there are on a.net!

FlyHappy wrote:

77H wrote:

I’d imagine one main reason is that less than 40% of US citizens have passports.The other being that there are plenty of island destinations closer to home or part of the US where passports aren’t needed.

That said, as more MAX and NEO types enter the US3 fleet we very well may see service started in the future.

77H

really? when will this passport idea finally die?
40% of 300 million = 120 million passports. that's more than the population of most developed countries.
only about 9% of Chinese citizens hold passports... so what?

all those island destinations closer to home, as you say - require passports, save Puerto Rico, Hawaii and USVI .

Its funny how decade of complaints about "obnoxious, ugly American tourists" around the globe (mostly tongue in cheek or at least tolerated) can turn into "Americans don't have passports" on a.net .

passports are not a main reason, and not even *any* reason at all.

If passport ownership isn’t a factor might we look at visitor numbers for Americans to Hawaii, PR and the USVI versus other Caribbean Islands and even Mexico ? I’d imagine a good chunk of American passport holders to the Caribbean and Mexico are VFR in nature and not American tourists looking to escape the cold which is what we’d be talking about when it comes to the Atlantic archipelagos..

A poster above remarked how the Canaries, Azores and Madeira are closer to the Eastern Seaboard than Hawaii. Why are there 3 flights a day from NYC to HNL on US carriers but 0 to any of the aforementioned islands that could be reached by lower cost narrow body aircraft?

77H

MIflyer12 wrote:

That.

cha747 wrote:

Aren't those destinations a bit like Hawaii - all vacation and no/little business?

That.

77H wrote:

The other being that there are plenty of island destinations closer to home or part of the US...

Tourist areas that are of interest to Europeans aren't necessarily of interest to Americans. In 2013, Guadaloupe got about 500K international visitors. 4,900 (no, I didn't drop a digit) were Americans.

Not that.

77H wrote:

I’d imagine one main reason is that less than 40% of US citizens have passports.

Americans with the money and inclination for international travel have passports.

I'm sure that if you compare the figures for 2013 for US citizens visiting the island to 2018 your see more far more US citizens visiting Guadalupe but the majority of those will be arriving on cruise ships, those figures are also taken into account of inbound Tourism numbers from the USA.

77H wrote:

FlyHappy wrote:

77H wrote:

I’d imagine one main reason is that less than 40% of US citizens have passports.The other being that there are plenty of island destinations closer to home or part of the US where passports aren’t needed.

That said, as more MAX and NEO types enter the US3 fleet we very well may see service started in the future.

77H

really? when will this passport idea finally die?
40% of 300 million = 120 million passports. that's more than the population of most developed countries.
only about 9% of Chinese citizens hold passports... so what?

all those island destinations closer to home, as you say - require passports, save Puerto Rico, Hawaii and USVI .

Its funny how decade of complaints about "obnoxious, ugly American tourists" around the globe (mostly tongue in cheek or at least tolerated) can turn into "Americans don't have passports" on a.net .

passports are not a main reason, and not even *any* reason at all.

If passport ownership isn’t a factor might we look at visitor numbers for Americans to Hawaii, PR and the USVI versus other Caribbean Islands and even Mexico ? I’d imagine a good chunk of American passport holders to the Caribbean and Mexico are VFR in nature and not American tourists looking to escape the cold which is what we’d be talking about when it comes to the Atlantic archipelagos..

A poster above remarked how the Canaries, Azores and Madeira are closer to the Eastern Seaboard than Hawaii. Why are there 3 flights a day from NYC to HNL on US carriers but 0 to any of the aforementioned islands that could be reached by lower cost narrow body aircraft?

77H

Look, don't take this the wrong way, but you are following a serious logical fallacy.

First - Hawaii is one of the 50 states, and immediately needs to removed from any comparisons with Mexico, Carribean, Europe, Asia or any place else. I hope I really don't have to spend time discussing business, family, government, military, and commerce ties that come along with being an innate part of the USA. That's entirely putting aside the very uniqueness of the HI island chain - but that's another story.

Second - You do imagine wrong. So, very, very wrong. The reality is the very opposite. Travel between US48 and PR & VI is highly VFR in nature, with "beach tourism" as a relatively modest component. PR travel is more often than not cruise ship related, for starters. Add'l both locations have relatively high costs due to US type regulations (wages, standards, compliance, etc), so are not that well suited to compete with some other locales. Go check the Puerto Rican population in NYC. 'nuff said.

Second.2 - wow..... ummmm... all those flights, heavily skewed to winter to Cancun, Cozumel, Ixtapa, Mazatlan, Punta Cana, La Romana, Aruba, Montego Bay, Cabo San Lucas....... I mean... seriously these are 100% US tourists. The number of VFR bodies on these flights round down to zero. Many of these flights don't even have a point of sale in the destination country! You want to find VFR traffic of US passport holders ? Look to the non-resort airports/areas; the capital cities and such: Mexico City, Santa Domingo, Kingston. Sure, they exist, but those carry a tiny fraction of the overall traffic to the beach areas.

Third - I'm really wondering where you are getting these ideas? Have you flown to these places? I cannot fathom how you'd come to your conclusions if you have done so. Just asking.

Forth - distance is a pretty small consideration (per your Azores closer to east coast than Hawaii to anywhere). Repeat: cannot compare the 50th state of the Union to any tourist only country or island. There's a lot of places that can be reached by narrow bodies, that aren't (directly). The reasons are varied, but always at the top: demand, or better: DEMAND. Look at Bermuda. Its a former British colonial. Its tourism is dominated by US48, (despite not being a big tourist place in general - high cost, colder water, different vibe) in the same way as the Caribbean. Everyone needs a passport to go there, and yet, go there they do.

Passports have exactly ZERO to do with tourists from US willingness to visit any specific location, world wide. Go to Bali; after you knock down a couple hundred drunk Aussies, you'll find Americans. Go to Tahiti; you'll find Americans - many on honeymoons. The examples are endless.

North Atlantic islands are niche destination, and airlines (at least US based) don't do niche that well; they do mass-market.

Maybe I am missing something, but looking at the average air and water temperatures for Tenerife, it looks way too cold to be a year round beach destination.

Most European nations are small and offer fewer options for domestic travel than does the USA. US travelers have many options if they want a warm weather vacation and this is especially for summer travel. Except for Cape Verde these islands are not winter destinations. People have to remember that the USA is almost continental in scope and summer focused international destinations have tough competition both from domestic US as well as nearby Mexican and Caribbean destinations. If a German or a British person wishes to travel to somewhere that its climatically different or has different attractions they must travel overseas in most cases. Not so the American.

Given the distances involved what does Cape Verde offer that the DR and Jamaica doesn't. That becomes the question.

Europeans really don't understand how large the USA is. NYC to Madrid is about the same as NYC to LAX. One can never leave the USA and still have many vacation spots.

77H wrote:

[
? I’d imagine a good chunk of American passport holders to the Caribbean and Mexico are VFR in nature and not American tourists looking to escape the cold which is what we’d be talking about when it comes to the Atlantic archipelagos..

77H

Well you imagine wrong. The USA is by far the largest source of tourists to the Caribbean and in fact PR and the USVI aren't even the largest. The Bahamas gets more US volume and Jamaica comes 3rd behind that island and PR. In fact PR gets more VFR travel than does Jamaica given the huge size of its US based population. Over 80% of US visitors to Jamaica travel there for reasons other than visiting friends and relatives.

Now what does Cape Verde offer that is worth a longer trip. The other islands aren't really reliably warm weather winter destinations so what is their draw. In the summer there is a whole continent for Americans to visit. Passport or no passport.

As some one stated if only 40% of Americans have passports that is still 120 million people. The USA provides 15 million visits out of a total of around 30 million. If you pull Cuba and the DR out of these numbers the USA dominates travel to the Caribbean.

Part of this is different vacation trends and weather. Americans and Canadians from New york, Philadelphia, Boston, Toronto, Chicago, Detroit, etc take beach vacations in the middle of winter. The Canary islands are in the 60s maybe 70s then. Miami and the carribean are a warmer 70 to mid 80s and still good for swimming. Europeans have different vacation habits.

EvanWSFO wrote:

Galwayman wrote:

Someone should open a low cost hub in Gran Canaria for Europe _ South America traffic . Turn it into the KEF of the South

To where? Africa? There are very few US flights to the continent. If there was more profit, they could be flying nonstop already. Even African airlines cannot be profitable. I would say most all flights are low yield, with JNB being an exception but even then not sure.

For many southern Europen destinations eg. LIS, MAD and also to FCO and northern African cities it is better to connect through PDL than KEF from the eastern US. So if the right airline proposes a connection route (or even WOW) through PDL for these destinations, it will be a success.

Cunard wrote:

[]

I'm sure that if you compare the figures for 2013 for US citizens visiting the island to 2018 your see more far more US citizens visiting Guadalupe but the majority of those will be arriving on cruise ships, those figures are also taken into account of inbound Tourism numbers from the USA.

Norwegian offers by far the cheapest airfares from the USA to the French Antilles. They can only support this during the winter when they run 8x weekly. Aside from that AA rusn 1x nonstop from MIA. AF flies a milk run service from MIA 5x stopping in PAP and continuing on to FDF.

Based on this we can infer that neither PTP nor FDF are popular Caribbean destinations for US tourists. And it isnt because they dont have passports. Compare service to nearby ANU, UVF or even SKB.

Neither PTP nor FDF are popular destinations for US cruises either. What the easons for this one can opine but PTP in particular gets few cruise visits.

It appears that when an American wants from a resort differs from what Europeans want. Dont bring up notions of spolied prima donnas wanting all inclusive resorts because these are most favored by Euro and Canadians arriving on comprehensive tour packages. Americans only favor them in places not seen as safe such as Jamaica and the DR.

Newbiepilot wrote:

Part of this is different vacation trends and weather. Americans and Canadians from New york, Philadelphia, Boston, Toronto, Chicago, Detroit, etc take beach vacations in the middle of winter. The Canary islands are in the 60s maybe 70s then. Miami and the carribean are a warmer 70 to mid 80s and still good for swimming. Europeans have different vacation habits.

Americans from the east coast also travel in the summer. In fact Jamaica sees limited seasonal variation from these markets. The winter focused US travel is that from New England and the Midwest. Summer is the peak for those from the southern states, which are now an increasing source of tourists.

What can be said with credibility is that, with the large numbers of domestic vacation spots Americans don't like to travel long distances if they can avoid it. Jamaica and the Bahamas do well because they are quite close. Americans don't do the "annual vacation trip" They prefer several short trips sprinkled throughout the year. One must remember that the USA is continental in scope so there is tons of VFR travel WITHIN the USA. NY/NJ to FL is a popular example of this.