Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2372
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 9:31 am

With the Caribbean Islands on your doorstep why would you even consider it? Its a no brainer.

The US3 don't fly to places just because they can, they fly to places to make $$$$$.
 
77H
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 10:14 am

rbavfan wrote:
spacecadet wrote:
77H wrote:
The other being that there are plenty of island destinations closer to home or part of the US where passports aren’t needed.


I really think that this is actually the main point. I've never been to the Canary islands but I probably just wouldn't even consider it when we have the Caribbean islands within just a few hours of much of the US, and there are very few Caribbean islands where you need a US passport. I'm not sure going to the Canary islands would be different enough for most Americans to bother, or pay the extra cost for the longer flight.

Not to mention the US itself has similar destinations that you can even drive to. Key West, for example (or any of the keys, really). I think this is something that a lot of Europeans don't understand about the US and why so many Americans don't have passports. If your goal is to just go from someplace cold to someplace warm during winter, you don't need to travel internationally at all as you would if you live in, say, Switzerland. You really only need a passport if you specifically want to go to another country to experience a different culture, but that's not why a lot of people travel. A lot of people just want a nice beach.

From the west coast, it's obviously even further to the Canary islands. I think people in the west more often go to Hawaii than the Caribbean, while it's the reverse for people in the east.


There are few Caribbean Islands where Americans don't need a passport. Also how do you explain all those americans going to Mexico with passports. After all most of us don't bother with them. Oh yeah you need a passport if you leave the US to Mexico and want to come back into the US.


I think I get the point toots. Between you happyflyer and the other 5 people.

77H
 
77H
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 10:56 am

rbavfan wrote:
spacecadet wrote:
77H wrote:
The other being that there are plenty of island destinations closer to home or part of the US where passports aren’t needed.


I really think that this is actually the main point. I've never been to the Canary islands but I probably just wouldn't even consider it when we have the Caribbean islands within just a few hours of much of the US, and there are very few Caribbean islands where you need a US passport. I'm not sure going to the Canary islands would be different enough for most Americans to bother, or pay the extra cost for the longer flight.

Not to mention the US itself has similar destinations that you can even drive to. Key West, for example (or any of the keys, really). I think this is something that a lot of Europeans don't understand about the US and why so many Americans don't have passports. If your goal is to just go from someplace cold to someplace warm during winter, you don't need to travel internationally at all as you would if you live in, say, Switzerland. You really only need a passport if you specifically want to go to another country to experience a different culture, but that's not why a lot of people travel. A lot of people just want a nice beach.

From the west coast, it's obviously even further to the Canary islands. I think people in the west more often go to Hawaii than the Caribbean, while it's the reverse for people in the east.


There are few Caribbean Islands where Americans don't need a passport. Also how do you explain all those americans going to Mexico with passports. After all most of us don't bother with them. Oh yeah you need a passport if you leave the US to Mexico and want to come back into the US.


The point I was trying to make is that there is some underlying reason why the US3 or any US carrier for that matter doesn’t serve the Eastern Atlantic Islands. By that I mean not one US carrier feels there is enough demand to start it even with a lower cost narrowbody while serving other primarily leisure destinations necessitating higher cost widebody aircraft.

So far we’ve been told it has nothing to do with the propensity of passport ownership, nothing to do with stage distance, nothing to do with the type of market and nothing to do with the types of hotels/resorts offered.. So can anyone tell me what they believe the reason is ?

From my interpretations so far from the most vocal contributors in this thread one could be lead to believe the airlines are missing out on serving the next big thing.

Perhaps it’s the weather? From pictures I’ve seen, and things I’ve read, the Azores and Madeira are more temperate and the Canaries tend to be more arid? Ala the KOA coast of Hawaii. Perhaps it’s lack of marketing? A poster above mentioned certain islands are considering visitor caps.

77H
 
amdflight
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 10:46 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 11:40 am

In the past year, Azores Airlines has organized charter flights from Boston to Madeira in specific dates like New Year´s Eve. As someone who lives in Madeira, I do notice an increase in American/Canadian visitors. Most of these get to Madeira via Lisbon with TAP or via Ponta Delgada with Azores Airlines. They are either looking for nature related experiences (Madeira´s forest is Unesco Hertiage), mild climate or there is some sort of connection to the island like ancestors who were born there. So, for sure not the typical visitor to Caribbean. So, it´s quite a niche market, not mature enough, but maybe some of the portuguese airlines can give it a go in the future.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 12:45 pm

77H wrote:

It could be argued that UA's upcoming SFO-PPT is a niche leisure market though it will be timed for connections from UA's CDG-SFO flight.
77H


Will UA be allowed to sell tickets on that connection? Wouldn't that count as a domestic with a connection in the same Country? Same reason AC can't sell JFK-YYZ-ORD.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 12:48 pm

Also, as someone that loves the Canary Islands...if you want a cheap beach destination, particularly if you are after a package holiday, then the Caribbean is just better.

Canaries are just some of the best beaches available to Europeans relatively close and it's familiar, you can spend euros, etc...

Also, IIRC, the longest intra-Schengen flight is HEL-TFS.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 1:12 pm

RTW00 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
RTW00 wrote:


For many southern Europen destinations eg. LIS, MAD and also to FCO and northern African cities it is better to connect through PDL than KEF from the eastern US. So if the right airline proposes a connection route (or even WOW) through PDL for these destinations, it will be a success.


I still don't see the need. The cities you listed have flights to cities on both continents in the western hemisphere. The only scenario that a hub in Gran Canaria would be attractive is to offer destinations with no TATL coverage. That in itself is a question because there's probably a reason why they don't already have service.



Well, if that is the case WOW wouldn't have offered one-stop service to Europen destinations such as MXP, AMS, FRA etc from JFK since there are multiple non-stop flights.

However, WOW is providing low-cost one-stop flights for the budget travelers (and hopefully making good profits) and competing with the non-stop service to Europe. Same could be done to several southern Europen cities (eg. AGP), as well as some northern Africa (eg. CMN) with connecting through PDL. This could be an alternate to KEF for a low cost connecting hub (both are almost the same distance from JFK).


It would have to be ULCC to work. Would they follow FI and WW with a free week stayover?
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 1:29 pm

HELyes wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
[ In the USA you can get on a domestic flight without a passport, in Europe you can't. You need a passport for every flight no matter where you're going. That's the reason far more Europeans got a passport than Americans do.


No, you don't need a passport inside the Schengen zone in Europe, an ID card complying with Schengen standards is enough. If I take a 6h flight Helsinki-Canary Islands the ID works just fine but I do need a passport to non-Schengen countries like UK, Cyprus or Bulgaria..


An EU citizen does not need a passport anywhere in the EU or the Economic European Area (including non-Schengen areas). Even some countries like Andorra, Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia accept EU ID cards.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 2:20 pm

77H wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that there is some underlying reason why the US3 or any US carrier for that matter doesn’t serve the Eastern Atlantic Islands. By that I mean not one US carrier feels there is enough demand to start it even with a lower cost narrowbody while serving other primarily leisure destinations necessitating higher cost widebody aircraft.

So far we’ve been told it has nothing to do with the propensity of passport ownership, nothing to do with stage distance, nothing to do with the type of market and nothing to do with the types of hotels/resorts offered.. So can anyone tell me what they believe the reason is ?


I suppose since I've personally offered up every one of those points, I'm compelled to speculate.
First- the Canaries have to be separated. Too much market overlap with cheaper/superior offerings in Mex/Carib (from US origination).
The more temperate islands, I suggest are a destination something like Costa Rica. In that, it focuses more on a nature or culture experience than a pure resort/relaxation one that is better served by other (seemingly similar, but not) locations. Even Belize- though it does have a strong niche among the scuba enthusiasts.

If Costa Rica/Belize were more distant, at the edge of NB range, than I'm certain they would have not attracted the air services they do from US carriers. Simply because they are more niche, less obvious of a money maker than the monster destinations nearby.

I've personally contemplated the Azores in the years past. The reason - marketing via email newsletters (I think it was Azores Airlines charters), the pricing was fine, but the timing and connections weren't compelling. It isn't like I didn't know about the islands, I simply didn't know there was a viable/cost effective path there.
So really, if those islands want US tourists, they need to make work with a carrier to make it happen. That means spending money on promotions, even subsidies. The obvious partner, to me, would be JetBlue. Lots of reasons.
 
dochawk2
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:06 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 2:22 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
Someone should open a low cost hub in Gran Canaria for Europe _ South America traffic . Turn it into the KEF of the South


To where? Africa? There are very few US flights to the continent. If there was more profit, they could be flying nonstop already. Even African airlines cannot be profitable. I would say most all flights are low yield, with JNB being an exception but even then not sure.


DL JFK to ACC is always full. Plus, Ghanaians bring tons (literally) of extra luggage. I think it is a very profitable route for DL. While I completely agree with the rest of Africa. Legos and JNB are the only other routes that make $$$. Everything else...not so much.
 
User avatar
NickolayAv
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:44 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 2:36 pm

Jouhou wrote:
I concur with everyone saying that US tourist traffic tends to go to the Caribbean.

Other than that, the reason for Cape Verde and the Azores being best served by PVD/BOS is easy to explain.

Image

It isn't tourism that supports these flights.

What is interesting though is that even though these routes started up as mostly VFR traffic, I have seen a lot of tourists going to the Azores, because of the availability and proximity of the flight. A lot of people in the Boston area discovered that BOS has flights there which has spurred tourist traffic to the destinations. My friend when flying there said it was about 50% VFR and 50% tourist.
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 2541
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 2:41 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I concur with everyone saying that US tourist traffic tends to go to the Caribbean.

Other than that, the reason for Cape Verde and the Azores being best served by PVD/BOS is easy to explain.

Image

It isn't tourism that supports these flights.

What is interesting though is that even though these routes started up as mostly VFR traffic, I have seen a lot of tourists going to the Azores, because of the availability and proximity of the flight. A lot of people in the Boston area discovered that BOS has flights there which has spurred tourist traffic to the destinations. My friend when flying there said it was about 50% VFR and 50% tourist.


I'm one of those people that has encouraged people to take advantage of the opportunity to see the Azores. It's a beautiful place with good people, and they could use the tourist money. They said people from mainland Portugal don't like to visit because it's rainy and dreary in comparison, but from the BOS area? The weather is plenty pleasant for us!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10380
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 3:28 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
77H wrote:
I've personally contemplated the Azores in the years past. The reason - marketing via email newsletters (I think it was Azores Airlines charters), the pricing was fine, but the timing and connections weren't compelling. It isn't like I didn't know about the islands, I simply didn't know there was a viable/cost effective path there.
So really, if those islands want US tourists, they need to make work with a carrier to make it happen. That means spending money on promotions, even subsidies. The obvious partner, to me, would be JetBlue. Lots of reasons.


But to promote it to US carriers, they would be needing subsides, but what point would that make for destinations that are booked to over 100% capacity in the prime season? If you can sell every available bed to the Europeans, why should you sell it for less to the Americans?
Why would you alienate airlines that often bring way over a thousand passengers in one day, to attract an airline, that might bring 1000 in a week?

When or if Turkey, Egypt and North Africa in general are able to fully return to the European holiday market and when the Canary Islands face empty beds, then it might be interesting to try for the US market, but at the moment that is not the case. And to be honest most resorts cater for the European tourist and the service would not suit US tourists. So at the moment it would only attract individualistic travellers from the US, but they can get there easy enough with just one connection in the EU. Fly into MAD and be there in 2-2,5 hours.
 
User avatar
HELyes
Posts: 1637
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
HELyes wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
[ In the USA you can get on a domestic flight without a passport, in Europe you can't. You need a passport for every flight no matter where you're going. That's the reason far more Europeans got a passport than Americans do.


No, you don't need a passport inside the Schengen zone in Europe, an ID card complying with Schengen standards is enough. If I take a 6h flight Helsinki-Canary Islands the ID works just fine but I do need a passport to non-Schengen countries like UK, Cyprus or Bulgaria..


An EU citizen does not need a passport anywhere in the EU or the Economic European Area (including non-Schengen areas). Even some countries like Andorra, Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia accept EU ID cards.


Yes you are absolutely right of course, thanks for the correction. I wasn't quite focused ;)
 
AIRT0M
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:54 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 6:01 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
In Europe it is more common to have a passport than it is in the USA. In the USA you can get on a domestic flight without a passport, in Europe you can't. You need a passport for every flight no matter where you're going. That's the reason far more Europeans got a passport than Americans do.


Actually, in Europe you hardly ever need a passport if you stay in core Europe - that aplies to 60% of Europe's population (or over 420 million people). Flying in the Schengen area is like domestic travel.

Before Schengen people in Europe needed passports to get anywhere. So historically people in Europe had a greater need for passports than Americans, who could just visit a much bigger area within the US borders without the need for a passport. And of course people in Europe always had more days off than people in the US - that's probably the main reason today, why you constantly stumble upon German, British, Scandinavian, French or nowadays Eastern European travellers pretty much everywhere in the world, but not so many Americans (the Caribbean and Mexico being the obvious exceptions). For every American I met in places like Cambodia, Australia, India or Argentina, I had the feeling there were 10 Europeans. At least...
 
Pepper456
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:30 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 6:02 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
For the same reasons you really don't see nonstop service from Europe to Hawaii... Distance, flight time, costs, and the fact that there are competing beach locales closer to home. Why fly to Hawaii, pretty as it is, when you've got the Riviera so close by? The same thing applies here for Atlantic island travel. Also, those islands aren't terribly well-known here in the US. The average person would know little to nothing about them, so it would strictly be a niche market. Were these islands interested in more American tourists, then a significant marketing campaign may change things. Personally, I'd love to try them, and I'm on the West Coast, but that's just me.

LHR-HNL is the same distance like LHR-SYD, no?
If yes, there you are the answer, it does not exist an aircraft to do so large distances. The A350ULR must be that plane.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1528
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Wed May 30, 2018 6:19 pm

Pepper456 wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
For the same reasons you really don't see nonstop service from Europe to Hawaii... Distance, flight time, costs, and the fact that there are competing beach locales closer to home. Why fly to Hawaii, pretty as it is, when you've got the Riviera so close by? The same thing applies here for Atlantic island travel. Also, those islands aren't terribly well-known here in the US. The average person would know little to nothing about them, so it would strictly be a niche market. Were these islands interested in more American tourists, then a significant marketing campaign may change things. Personally, I'd love to try them, and I'm on the West Coast, but that's just me.

LHR-HNL is the same distance like LHR-SYD, no?
If yes, there you are the answer, it does not exist an aircraft to do so large distances. The A350ULR must be that plane.


LHR-SYD is 3,000 miles longer than LHR-HNL.

To those questioning why Americans would want to travel to the Canaries when the Caribbean is closer: by that logic, should British/Europeans stop going to the Caribbean instead?
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 601
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Thu May 31, 2018 7:12 am

77H wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
77H wrote:

If passport ownership isn’t a factor might we look at visitor numbers for Americans to Hawaii, PR and the USVI versus other Caribbean Islands and even Mexico ? I’d imagine a good chunk of American passport holders to the Caribbean and Mexico are VFR in nature and not American tourists looking to escape the cold which is what we’d be talking about when it comes to the Atlantic archipelagos..

A poster above remarked how the Canaries, Azores and Madeira are closer to the Eastern Seaboard than Hawaii. Why are there 3 flights a day from NYC to HNL on US carriers but 0 to any of the aforementioned islands that could be reached by lower cost narrow body aircraft?

77H

Just of curiosity, besides the daily HA flight and daily UA flight, who flies the 3rd daily flight from NYC to Honolulu?


DL. Though if I’m being honest, it might be seasonal. I remember seeing a route announcement about it but didn’t dig too deep into.

77H

I knew about the DL seasonal (winter) flights JFK-HNL. It would be great if they went all year round, putting some pricing pressure on HA.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Thu May 31, 2018 7:31 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
To those questioning why Americans would want to travel to the Canaries when the Caribbean is closer: by that logic, should British/Europeans stop going to the Caribbean instead?


Its an asymmetrical situation.

The Caribbean has more of whats "good" about both places, and what that tourist generally seeks.
Secondly, the value for money will also be much higher in the lower cost countries.
Thirdly, the European package holiday market is very different from that of the US. You often find those European bundles are going further, more cheaply than the US consumer who is buying only with only the "power of one".

I'm answering of course, in the mass market context. Obviously, there are some Americans who want to go to the Canaries, and I'm certain there are some there right now.... but its not enough make a flight compelling. That's because the more compelling similar option is closer, cheaper, more convenient.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Thu May 31, 2018 8:11 am

seahawk wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
77H wrote:
I've personally contemplated the Azores in the years past. The reason - marketing via email newsletters (I think it was Azores Airlines charters), the pricing was fine, but the timing and connections weren't compelling. It isn't like I didn't know about the islands, I simply didn't know there was a viable/cost effective path there.
So really, if those islands want US tourists, they need to make work with a carrier to make it happen. That means spending money on promotions, even subsidies. The obvious partner, to me, would be JetBlue. Lots of reasons.


But to promote it to US carriers, they would be needing subsides, but what point would that make for destinations that are booked to over 100% capacity in the prime season? If you can sell every available bed to the Europeans, why should you sell it for less to the Americans?
Why would you alienate airlines that often bring way over a thousand passengers in one day, to attract an airline, that might bring 1000 in a week?

When or if Turkey, Egypt and North Africa in general are able to fully return to the European holiday market and when the Canary Islands face empty beds, then it might be interesting to try for the US market, but at the moment that is not the case. And to be honest most resorts cater for the European tourist and the service would not suit US tourists. So at the moment it would only attract individualistic travellers from the US, but they can get there easy enough with just one connection in the EU. Fly into MAD and be there in 2-2,5 hours.


hmmmmm..... I wrote of the Azores, but you wrote of the Canaries. Very different.

I don't think any amount of promotion to the US market (if ever desired), would produce much traffic from the US to the Canaries, as a practical matter. But I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that it has anything to do with the "catering to Europeans" bit. I regularly visit Caribbean resorts where US guests are in the minority, and the fit is appropriate for all (very diverse clienteles). That is, unless the Europeans visiting are seeking an "American experience" ;)

As far as subsidies, I don't know if you thinking of Canaries or Azores being 100% full. I'm not suggesting anyone should "alienate airlines". I'm simply saying that various holiday bundlers have been attempting to create demand in the US for its Azores offerings via simple email type marketing. They must be doing it for some reason. But since they dont offer non-stop flights, or even any origination beyond 3 US cities, the offers aren't as compelling as they could be. So given this thread is "Why no US carriers to ...." , my thought is the if there is any way to attract the service, that incentivizing a US carrier is the way, and JetBlue seems like the obvious candidate.

They've hinted at TATL, and if they could run a tag-on/5th freedom from Faro to ...... ? (Barcelona?, Nice?)
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:18 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
But I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that it has anything to do with the "catering to Europeans" bit. I regularly visit Caribbean resorts where US guests are in the minority, and the fit is appropriate for all (very diverse clienteles). That is, unless the Europeans visiting are seeking an "American experience" ;)

?)



The only islands where Americans might be a minority will be the DR and Cuba as well as Curacao and the French islands. Even Jamaica has the US market as its core. Euros and Canadians buy their trips through tour operators who control the product offerings in order to drive costs down. Properties aimed at this market will have smaller rooms and will be exclusively all inclusive, often the buffet style.

Americans are more concerned about the resort amenities, less interested in all inclusive, except at the lower price sensitive end of the market, and are much more service driven. And they will pay for it. More of them will also assemble their own packages. Even when they buy from wholesalers they demand more flexibility in the offerings.

We had this discussion a few months ago about why US travel to the Caribbean is on scheduled carriers in most cases, while that from Europe and Canada more likely being on charters. For example DR and Cuba are by far the largest destinations for Canadians and yet AC and WestJet have relatively less footprint than into BGI. American travelers to the Caribbean want a different experience than those from Canada and Europe. Americans have shorter vacations and bigger spend per day. Euros and even Canadians tend to stay longer so must focus more on cost.

The American who travels to the Caribbean goes for a different purpose than do those who go to Europe (including the islands), so want different things.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:34 pm

guyanam wrote:
The only islands where Americans might be a minority will be the DR and Cuba as well as Curacao and the French islands. Even Jamaica has the US market as its core. Euros and Canadians buy their trips through tour operators who control the product offerings in order to drive costs down. Properties aimed at this market will have smaller rooms and will be exclusively all inclusive, often the buffet style.

Americans are more concerned about the resort amenities, less interested in all inclusive, except at the lower price sensitive end of the market, and are much more service driven. And they will pay for it. More of them will also assemble their own packages. Even when they buy from wholesalers they demand more flexibility in the offerings.

We had this discussion a few months ago about why US travel to the Caribbean is on scheduled carriers in most cases, while that from Europe and Canada more likely being on charters. For example DR and Cuba are by far the largest destinations for Canadians and yet AC and WestJet have relatively less footprint than into BGI. American travelers to the Caribbean want a different experience than those from Canada and Europe. Americans have shorter vacations and bigger spend per day. Euros and even Canadians tend to stay longer so must focus more on cost.

The American who travels to the Caribbean goes for a different purpose than do those who go to Europe (including the islands), so want different things.


Me thinks you are generalizing a wee bit too much.
I did not say American were in the minority on the entire island. I said I regularly visit resorts (big difference) where Americans are in the minority. This goes to disputing your point about the nature of the properties, size of the rooms, and buffet... (seriously, you do not think Americans don't freakin' LOVE buffets?)

You are not suggesting that the CAN/EU charters completely occupy these resorts, leaving no room for Americans, are you?

I returned exactly two months ago today, from an AI resort which had plenty of Americans (but a minority), and I will be in another in precisely 8 days.
I'm puzzled as to where your perception of such differences about American vs CAN/EU tourists in the Caribbean come from. I find nearly the opposite to be true. I find that they all want pretty much the exact same things... including the kids that end up playing together, often with no common language.

I'll add that many of these places boast large contingents of Argentines, Brazilians and people from Mexico City.
 
User avatar
HoboJoe
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:03 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:28 am

Most probably because nobody wants to go there
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:10 am

FlyHappy wrote:
I'll add that many of these places boast large contingents of Argentines, Brazilians and people from Mexico City.



So you proved my point. Cuba and DR. Americans account for 50% of the overall visitors to the Caribbean so any resort where they aren't the largest group is one that Americans don't heavily favor.

So let us start with this fact. Canadians/Euros buy a package from a tour operator who negotiates and constructs all aspects of the trip, and this includes booking out rooms even before they are sold to visitors. Given that price is an issue cost is what determines all aspects of this product. So hotels which cater to this group cannot offer luxury because they aren't going to be compensated. So its buffet service.

Americans want more flexibility in how they design their "island" trip. They have shorter vacations so maybe focus more on having a good experience in the resorts and less on the cost. In any case many Americans will be inclined to construct their own trip, selecting amenities to cater to their tastes. Maybe this might be less true for Americans from the Midwest but it is certainly true for those from the northeast. They will complain if its the same menu every day.

With the exception of Jamaica (seen as being dangerous) Americans will be a more dominant source in the non AI islands whereas the mass market islands will see a higher % of Canadians and Europeans.

The Canary Islands do well out of Europe so see limited reason to alter their product and marketing to cater to Americans from the northeast. So they get fewer Americans than one would expect. I suspect that no one in the Canary Islands is asking why they don't get American tourists to the extent that the DR gets Europeans.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:45 am

guyanam wrote:
So you proved my point. Cuba and DR. Americans account for 50% of the overall visitors to the Caribbean so any resort where they aren't the largest group is one that Americans don't heavily favor.

So let us start with this fact. Canadians/Euros buy a package from a tour operator who negotiates and constructs all aspects of the trip, and this includes booking out rooms even before they are sold to visitors. Given that price is an issue cost is what determines all aspects of this product. So hotels which cater to this group cannot offer luxury because they aren't going to be compensated. So its buffet service.

Americans want more flexibility in how they design their "island" trip. They have shorter vacations so maybe focus more on having a good experience in the resorts and less on the cost. In any case many Americans will be inclined to construct their own trip, selecting amenities to cater to their tastes. Maybe this might be less true for Americans from the Midwest but it is certainly true for those from the northeast. They will complain if its the same menu every day.

With the exception of Jamaica (seen as being dangerous) Americans will be a more dominant source in the non AI islands whereas the mass market islands will see a higher % of Canadians and Europeans.

The Canary Islands do well out of Europe so see limited reason to alter their product and marketing to cater to Americans from the northeast. So they get fewer Americans than one would expect. I suspect that no one in the Canary Islands is asking why they don't get American tourists to the extent that the DR gets Europeans.


I don't know what point of yours I proved or how.

Most of your assertions you insist are fact, fly in the face of what I've been observing as a visitor since my first trip to the Caribbean in 2003; coincidentally to Jamaica.

You are so certain that American vacationers are fundementally different than are Canadians or Europeans and to that point, I cannot disagree strongly enough.
This is the underpinning of your belief that the Canaries would need to "alter their product and marketing to cater to Americans from the northeast", to which I obviously disagree, I simply don't think the hotels/resorts/amenities have anything to do with it.

By your logic, there should be loads of Canadian tourists in the Canaries. Are there? Are there direct flights from Canada to the Canaries?
My 2 minutes of searching suggest that the answer is no, but by all means, prove me wrong.
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 1086
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:27 pm

Two reasons that haven't been mentioned:

1) Canary Island and Madeira regional govt's have invested millions of euros advertising in Northern Europe while never put a dollar on the NA market. Authorities have gone after their natural market.

2) Majority of americans looking for beach resorts prefer a place where english is spoken. In the caribbean everybody speaks english while in Spain and Portugal it is not the case

The other reason already mentioned is the weather. Daytime max temps in Canaries and Madeira from Nov to Apr average around 22C/70F. That's OK for scandinavians but not for americans
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Why no flights on US3 to eastern Atlantic islands?

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:26 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Two reasons that haven't been mentioned:

1) Canary Island and Madeira regional govt's have invested millions of euros advertising in Northern Europe while never put a dollar on the NA market. Authorities have gone after their natural market.

2) Majority of americans looking for beach resorts prefer a place where english is spoken. In the caribbean everybody speaks english while in Spain and Portugal it is not the case

The other reason already mentioned is the weather. Daytime max temps in Canaries and Madeira from Nov to Apr average around 22C/70F. That's OK for scandinavians but not for americans



actually, all three of your points have been brought up/debated to more or less an extent.
#1 and #3 are indisputably factual.

But I don't agree with #2, I don't think there's any particular basis beyond simple correlation to think that American beach tourists are reluctant to visit low english/spanish only locations. Its not true that everyone in the Caribbean speaks english, and definitely not the case in many mexican beach resorts outside of Cancun area. Many places have pretty low prevalence of functional english, outside of hotel desk clerks, and Airport immigration staff, and there seems to be no shortage of Americans there, per my eyes. That's putting aside the reality that many americans can cobble together enough spanish phrases to get by in a resort just fine - "water, please", "where's the bathroom", etc.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos