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Matt6461
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 7:51 pm

blockski wrote:
There's also the matter of airspace. New York's regional plan association did a deep dive on NYC's airports a while back, and the airspace conflicts are front and center.
http://library.rpa.org/pdf/RPA-Upgradin ... -Class.pdf


IIRC the conflicts are mostly between LGA and JFK, especially during bad weather. That would suggest combining JFK expansion with LGA closure, or else prioritizing EWR expansion.

Re noise issues, I expect electric planes on regional routes to open up more opportunities to use airports like HVN, HPN, ISP, even places like FRG and MMU. That would alleviate a lot of congestion. Electric planes could even takeoff on battery power some day, then power up for cruise.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 8:00 pm

...while we're talking about crazy ideas, I'd also like to see NYC/PANYNJ/MTA work together for greater regional connectivity to the airports.

Here's one idea:
Assuming we get a new Trans-Hudson tunnel, use some of the new capacity to include an RER/S-Bahn-style link from EWR to Jamaica, with stops at NY Penn and maybe two intermediate points. The service could take 20 minutes for the whole route perhaps, putting Long Islanders in reach of EWR and NJ'ers in reach of JFK. Commuters could - and many would - transfer at EWR airport station and Jamaica for a 10min ride to NYP. That would help with frequency consolidation at the airports.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 8:16 pm

Matt6461 wrote:

IIRC the conflicts are mostly between LGA and JFK, especially during bad weather. That would suggest combining JFK expansion with LGA closure, or else prioritizing EWR expansion.


Yes, JFK's airfield runs way under capacity due to airspace conflicts with LGA. It's been theorized that closing LGA would actually increase overall NYC runway capacity because it would allow JFK to operate freely. There is room for a 3rd parallel runway on JFK's north side but no use adding it with the current airspace issues.


EWR screwed up their planning in the 1960's. They had space for a clean sheet design when they built the current 3 terminals. They should have set aside land for two dependent parallel runways on the west side of the property so the final runway layout could have looked like LAX, with a terminal in the middle. Instead they wasted all that land on 3 smallish terminals, a sea of surface parking lots, a hotel, and a maze of freeway ramps.
 
leader1
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 8:28 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF

That and HPN.
Realistically, nothing will be done to affect the status quo. LGA will continue to be a basketcase with some of the worst delays in the system, JFK won't be far behind, TEB will continue to barely cope, and EWR will only just keep managing to be halfway functional. A lot of people here think the issue holding these airports back from expanding is lack of gates and runways, but the issue is airspace. There just isn't enough to manage all of the traffic flows, particularly when weather moves in (which is more often than not). One single airport would help, but definitely not fix the problem.


Absolutely correct. People on this site seem to think that lack of runways is the problem and they're misinformed. That might be the case with LGA, but not so with JFK and, to a lesser extent, EWR. The airspace hampers capacity. LHR, MEX, IST and other airports have fewer runways with worse configurations and the latter two probably don't have the ATC infrastructure that we have here, yet they handle more moments than JFK or EWR. Why? Because they're not immediately surrounded by other major airports and thus have the airspace to handle the flight volume.

Regarding SWF, this proposal has come up time and time again and has never gained any traction. Unless some form of high-speed rail from Manhattan to SWF gets build and built relatively soon, it will never be a viable option to alleviate pressure.

MIflyer12 wrote:
IMHO, if there's a capacity constraint with the three major NYC airports, connecting traffic can be routed elsewhere. (Let PANYNJ lobby for a 'connection tax'.) Look at the per-departure and per-runway counts at LHR and LGW. There's lots of room to scale up.


JFK and EWR, despite having more than two runways, effectively run two-runway ops most of the time because of the surrounding airspace. So, their per-runway counts would only be slightly less than LHR's.

Matt6461 wrote:
It would be better, IMO, to force airlines to use NYC's airspace more effectively some day. There are hundreds of daily flights to places like ORD, SFO, LAX, BOS that could be consolidated onto widebodies under a given regulatory regime. You could, for example, force code-sharing between legacies on such routes and waive landing fees for planes carrying >400 pax on domestic routes. That might swing the economics in favor of up-gauging, make excess frequencies redundant, and the foregone landing fees would be far cheaper than $tens/hundreds of billions on new airfields.


You already have some sort of regulatory regime. JFK and LGA are both Level 3 slot controlled airports, which means they can't run more than a specific number of operations per hour. EWR is a Level 2 schedule facilitated airport, which means the FAA oversees the scheduling and they make sure that the airport isn't over-saturated. And the economics of flying widebodies over relatively short distances has proven to be a failure.

In the end, you have to do something to improve the airspace in the region. That's the main issue. Also, JFK is a large airport in itself. There is room for expansion within the current airfield. You could add a 13/31 runway above 13L/31R and relocate the north cargo area elsewhere. JFK has a lot of unused cargo buildings onsite.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 8:33 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Instead they wasted all that land on 3 smallish terminals, a sea of surface parking lots, a hotel, and a maze of freeway ramps.


Good point, hadn't realized that.

Leader1 wrote:
the economics of flying widebodies over relatively short distances has proven to be a failure.


...which is why I propose a subsidy (landing fee waiver) and a regulatory incentive (forced codesharing) to make the economics favorable.

In any event, it's not necessarily true that shorthaul widebodies don't work. It's the rule rather than the exception on Asian megaroutes and even in the U.S. we've seen UA start to move in this direction.
The US3's emphasis on frequency and the relative fragmentation of our central hubs explain why NB shorthaul is the rule here. There's no good first principles reason for the government not to interfere in the current equilibrium if the public policy benefits are large (as I believe they would be).
 
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Matt6461
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 8:38 pm

leader1 wrote:
You already have some sort of regulatory regime. JFK and LGA are both Level 3 slot controlled airports, which means they can't run more than a specific number of operations per hour. EWR is a Level 2 schedule facilitated airport, which means the FAA oversees the scheduling and they make sure that the airport isn't over-saturated.


These do not come remotely close to incentivizing more intensive use of air space. They have become monopoly-protective regulations in which airlines sit on slots and have no incentive to increase supply. Observe that UA actually complained when the FAA eased restrictions on EWR.
 
leader1
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 9:21 pm

Matt6461 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Instead they wasted all that land on 3 smallish terminals, a sea of surface parking lots, a hotel, and a maze of freeway ramps.


Good point, hadn't realized that.

Leader1 wrote:
the economics of flying widebodies over relatively short distances has proven to be a failure.


...which is why I propose a subsidy (landing fee waiver) and a regulatory incentive (forced codesharing) to make the economics favorable.

In any event, it's not necessarily true that shorthaul widebodies don't work. It's the rule rather than the exception on Asian megaroutes and even in the U.S. we've seen UA start to move in this direction.
The US3's emphasis on frequency and the relative fragmentation of our central hubs explain why NB shorthaul is the rule here. There's no good first principles reason for the government not to interfere in the current equilibrium if the public policy benefits are large (as I believe they would be).


You will never see a subsidy scheme happen in this political climate, which will only get more toxic in the future. And airport operators would be insane to waive landing fees, which is a big chunk of their income.

As for widebodies in Asia, it's an entirely different market. Asian cities are generally much bigger than North American ones and they're spread out across greater distances. Japan might be an exception, but they have a train system that works well there. Amtrak is not reliable and the Asian type of train system will never be available in the US, especially with our political climate. Secondly, Asian airports are heavily slot controlled at way under their capacity. For instance, PEK, with three widely spaced runways, is capped at 90 movements an hour, but they could easily handle more than 120. PVG has a similar cap and it has the same configuration as ATL, with five runways. HND has four runways, but it has airspace issues as planes not allowed to fly over Tokyo. It is capped at 80 movements per hour, I believe, but it could handle a lot more. Asian airlines use bigger planes and have less frequency because they have no other choice. Even so, Asian airports often operate with more delays in spite of having fewer operations and more runway capacity than our airports here.

Matt6461 wrote:
These do not come remotely close to incentivizing more intensive use of air space. They have become monopoly-protective regulations in which airlines sit on slots and have no incentive to increase supply. Observe that UA actually complained when the FAA eased restrictions on EWR.


UA complained because the airport was going to be opened up to more competition and they had a monopoly before. JFK and LGA don't really have this issue.
 
rbavfan
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 9:44 pm

FA9295 wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF

That and HPN.


and you see how well they are going over. that and one airport could not replace all three NYC airports.
 
mikejepp
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 9:53 pm

How about a mega airport in Central NJ, near McGuire AFB. Something like DEN with the full ~12 runway and 5 concourse build out.

Replace/close JFK, EWR, LGA, PHL, TTN.

Connect it to downtowns and transportation hubs in NYC and Philly with frequent (every 10-15 mins) high speed rail. It could be just as quick as getting to/from these airports during rush hour. Eliminating all those airports and conflicting airspace would be huge. The efficiency gains for airlines only having to serve 1 airport instead of ~4 would be huge. This would be, by far, the biggest and busiest airport in the world... but if planned well, could operate wonderfully. Picture triple simultaneous arrivals, all day long, of heavies.
 
twaconnie
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 10:03 pm

MO11 wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
What about opening up TEB to commercial operation. Seems like it might be possible to make non-intersecting runways with a terminal in the middle to get extra capacity.


You're kidding, right? Traffic can't get in and out of TEB now because of EWR (and to a lessor degree LGA).

The supervisor at LGA tower told me when they ILS to rwy 13 TEB has to shut down.
 
DaveFly
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 10:32 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Matt6461 wrote:

EWR screwed up their planning in the 1960's. They had space for a clean sheet design when they built the current 3 terminals. They should have set aside land for two dependent parallel runways on the west side of the property so the final runway layout could have looked like LAX, with a terminal in the middle. Instead they wasted all that land on 3 smallish terminals, a sea of surface parking lots, a hotel, and a maze of freeway ramps.


No offense intended, but I’m going to guess that you’re young! When I used to fly back and forth to college in the early/mid-1970s, Newark was a ghost town. The Port Authority used to run tv commercials to let the public know about ‘New York’s Best-Kept Secret.’ I even took a shot using EWR on a Piedmont flight to visit a college buddy. No one could’ve guessed that Newark would someday be bursting at the seams. The planners didn’t screwup; they actually took a risk that Newark would someday take off :)
 
canyonblue17
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 10:40 pm

I'll give you one more often overlooked New York area airport that already has a small terminal and has an almost 7,000-foot runway long enough to handle 737s and smaller regionals - FRG. It could easily be developed to rival at least HPN.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 10:45 pm

DaveFly wrote:
flyPIT wrote:

EWR screwed up their planning in the 1960's. They had space for a clean sheet design when they built the current 3 terminals. They should have set aside land for two dependent parallel runways on the west side of the property so the final runway layout could have looked like LAX, with a terminal in the middle. Instead they wasted all that land on 3 smallish terminals, a sea of surface parking lots, a hotel, and a maze of freeway ramps.


No offense intended, but I’m going to guess that you’re young! When I used to fly back and forth to college in the early/mid-1970s, Newark was a ghost town. The Port Authority used to run tv commercials to let the public know about ‘New York’s Best-Kept Secret.’ I even took a shot using EWR on a Piedmont flight to visit a college buddy. No one could’ve guessed that Newark would someday be bursting at the seams. The planners didn’t screwup; they actually took a risk that Newark would someday take off :)


Well unfortunately for me you guessed wrong. Anyway I never suggested they should have done a full build out all at once. I know EWR was once sleepy but that is not an excuse for poor land use and master planning. IAD was once sleepy too but at least they got some basics right such as independent parallel runways with the terminal complex between them.
 
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N62NA
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 11:45 pm

mikejepp wrote:
How about a mega airport in Central NJ, near McGuire AFB. Something like DEN with the full ~12 runway and 5 concourse build out.

Replace/close JFK, EWR, LGA, PHL, TTN.

Connect it to downtowns and transportation hubs in NYC and Philly with frequent (every 10-15 mins) high speed rail. It could be just as quick as getting to/from these airports during rush hour. Eliminating all those airports and conflicting airspace would be huge. The efficiency gains for airlines only having to serve 1 airport instead of ~4 would be huge. This would be, by far, the biggest and busiest airport in the world... but if planned well, could operate wonderfully. Picture triple simultaneous arrivals, all day long, of heavies.



Best post of the topic.
 
ty97
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 11:45 pm

Any expansion of SWF (regardless of the lack of feasibility in this thread for SWF to replace the NYC airports) would like bring up the Stewart State Forest fight again as well.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu May 31, 2018 1:29 am

flyPIT wrote:
Matt6461 wrote:

IIRC the conflicts are mostly between LGA and JFK, especially during bad weather. That would suggest combining JFK expansion with LGA closure, or else prioritizing EWR expansion.


Yes, JFK's airfield runs way under capacity due to airspace conflicts with LGA. It's been theorized that closing LGA would actually increase overall NYC runway capacity because it would allow JFK to operate freely. There is room for a 3rd parallel runway on JFK's north side but no use adding it with the current airspace issues.


EWR screwed up their planning in the 1960's. They had space for a clean sheet design when they built the current 3 terminals. They should have set aside land for two dependent parallel runways on the west side of the property so the final runway layout could have looked like LAX, with a terminal in the middle. Instead they wasted all that land on 3 smallish terminals, a sea of surface parking lots, a hotel, and a maze of freeway ramps.


Was it EWR that screwed it up or the Port Authority?
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu May 31, 2018 1:34 am

Matt6461 wrote:
blockski wrote:
There's also the matter of airspace. New York's regional plan association did a deep dive on NYC's airports a while back, and the airspace conflicts are front and center.
http://library.rpa.org/pdf/RPA-Upgradin ... -Class.pdf


IIRC the conflicts are mostly between LGA and JFK, especially during bad weather. That would suggest combining JFK expansion with LGA closure, or else prioritizing EWR expansion.

Re noise issues, I expect electric planes on regional routes to open up more opportunities to use airports like HVN, HPN, ISP, even places like FRG and MMU. That would alleviate a lot of congestion. Electric planes could even takeoff on battery power some day, then power up for cruise.


Unfortunately that won't happen after the state of New York spends $4-6 billion building new terminals at LGA.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu May 31, 2018 2:36 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Matt6461 wrote:

IIRC the conflicts are mostly between LGA and JFK, especially during bad weather. That would suggest combining JFK expansion with LGA closure, or else prioritizing EWR expansion.


Yes, JFK's airfield runs way under capacity due to airspace conflicts with LGA. It's been theorized that closing LGA would actually increase overall NYC runway capacity because it would allow JFK to operate freely. There is room for a 3rd parallel runway on JFK's north side but no use adding it with the current airspace issues.


EWR screwed up their planning in the 1960's. They had space for a clean sheet design when they built the current 3 terminals. They should have set aside land for two dependent parallel runways on the west side of the property so the final runway layout could have looked like LAX, with a terminal in the middle. Instead they wasted all that land on 3 smallish terminals, a sea of surface parking lots, a hotel, and a maze of freeway ramps.


Was it EWR that screwed it up or the Port Authority?


The PA has been leasing and operating EWR since the late 1940's.
 
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enilria
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu May 31, 2018 2:04 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
airliner371 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Yeah, no.
Image

There is no where to expand.

I don't know what you see, but I see room for four parallel runways and a large terminal in the middle. Not saying it'll happen, but I see the room.

I don't know what you see, but I see room for about four thousand lawsuits if anyone ever tried to build four parallel runways there! That's also assuming the land is theirs to build on. Even with four parallel runways, there still isn't the airspace available to handle that level of traffic without closing another airport. Not to mention that nobody in the NY metro area would travel to SWF over having LGA, JFK, or EWR close.

So you are looking for a space with no existing buildings close to NYC and larger than JFK. Excuse me while I stop laughing.

Obviously they would use imminent domain to take those existing properties. You don't understand much about the process. Take a look at Google Earth before and after a runway was added at any existing U.S. airport and you'll see in nearly every case there was much more dense use of the land than that. Lawsuits-smah-suits. This isn't LHR. There is a long history for using imminent domain for such projects in the USA and as long as it isn't in HPN where people have *a lot* of money, nothing is going to stop it. OTOH, it's not going to happen because the whole thread is pie in the sky. They are rebuilding both LGA and JFK.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu May 31, 2018 2:27 pm

enilria wrote:
So you are looking for a space with no existing buildings close to NYC and larger than JFK. Excuse me while I stop laughing.

Where did I say that??

enilria wrote:
Obviously they would use imminent domain to take those existing properties. You don't understand much about the process.

You're right, I know nothing about imminent domain, probably because it's Eminent Domain. If you mean eminent domain, then I'm actually quite familiar with it. Not only is it simply not that easy to snatch up private land, but lawsuits would tie it up in court for years. There's a reason eminent domain is NOT used in projects like airport expansions. Usually it's easier to simply buy out the property owners, but even that takes years. As Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that."

enilria wrote:
Lawsuits-smah-suits. This isn't LHR.

No, this is America. We sue more.

enilria wrote:
There is a long history for using imminent domain for such projects in the USA and as long as it isn't in HPN where people have *a lot* of money, nothing is going to stop it.

Which projects are you referring you? I can't think of any airport projects in the United States that exercised eminent domain, so it can't be that imminent.

enilria wrote:
OTOH, it's not going to happen because the whole thread is pie in the sky. They are rebuilding both LGA and JFK.

I agree, like I said here:
atcsundevil wrote:
The only significant improvements would come from closing and replacing existing airports, and that'll never happen in my lifetime.
 
e38
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu May 31, 2018 2:34 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (reply #17) " . . . when looking at SWF, that it's big runway is over 15000' long. It's long."

Where did you come up with that number?

My Jepp chart indicates Runway 9 / 27 is 11,817 feet long. It is not "over 15,000' long" as you stated.

When you take into account the displaced thresholds on both ends of the runway, the usable length for landing distance computations for Runway 9 is only 8,817 feet and for Runway 27 it is 9,817 feet.

e38
 
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enilria
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu May 31, 2018 7:20 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
enilria wrote:
So you are looking for a space with no existing buildings close to NYC and larger than JFK. Excuse me while I stop laughing.

Where did I say that??

enilria wrote:
Obviously they would use imminent domain to take those existing properties. You don't understand much about the process.

You're right, I know nothing about imminent domain, probably because it's Eminent Domain. If you mean eminent domain, then I'm actually quite familiar with it. Not only is it simply not that easy to snatch up private land, but lawsuits would tie it up in court for years. There's a reason eminent domain is NOT used in projects like airport expansions. Usually it's easier to simply buy out the property owners, but even that takes years. As Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that."

enilria wrote:
Lawsuits-smah-suits. This isn't LHR.

No, this is America. We sue more.

enilria wrote:
There is a long history for using imminent domain for such projects in the USA and as long as it isn't in HPN where people have *a lot* of money, nothing is going to stop it.

Which projects are you referring you? I can't think of any airport projects in the United States that exercised eminent domain, so it can't be that imminent.

enilria wrote:
OTOH, it's not going to happen because the whole thread is pie in the sky. They are rebuilding both LGA and JFK.

I agree, like I said here:
atcsundevil wrote:
The only significant improvements would come from closing and replacing existing airports, and that'll never happen in my lifetime.

Excuse my misspelling, but just googling I find numerous examples where it has been used for airport expansion with no mention of lawsuits.

ORD
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/07/25/ ... ghborhood/
"Chicago invoked eminent domain to seize part of Bensenville for the project. Mayor Richard Daley said expanding O’Hare was vital to Chicago’s economy and would ease air traffic delays."

Here's one in New York
https://poststar.com/news/local/county- ... 963f4.html

LAX
https://www.scpr.org/news/2017/08/09/74 ... nt-domain/
The Los Angeles City Council on Wednesday voted unanimously to use eminent domain to acquire the remaining residential properties in a neighborhood near the Los Angeles International Airport.

The city affirmed a vote in June by the Board of Airport Commissioners to start the government process of taking private property in the Manchester Square area through forced purchase, clearing the path for airport expansion projects.


PVD
https://warwickpost.com/homes-make-way- ... expansion/

Oregon
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/m ... es-to-see/

CAE
http://www.columbiatribune.com/article/ ... /305259926

http://www.mlive.com/news/jackson/index ... _home.html
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu May 31, 2018 9:49 pm

enilria wrote:
Excuse my misspelling, but just googling I find numerous examples where it has been used for airport expansion with no mention of lawsuits.

Perhaps your misspelling might be indicative that you know less about eminent domain than apparently I do.

I should have been more specific: eminent domain is never used as a first measure for property acquisitions for airports; in fact, it's the last and worst scenario because it takes the longest, it's the most expensive option, and usually only involves one or a few property owners. It's used to acquire land from holdouts after years of negotiations to purchase property. Filing for eminent domain itself is a lengthy legal process. Acquiring property from a large number of owners can take five, ten, or more years, and always comes after lawsuits over land use, environmental concerns, noise complaints, etc. Every single one of the instances you mentioned involved lawsuits, because that's how just eminent domain cases work.

The first article you listed says this:
"The legal battles were long and hard-fought, but, in the end, plans to expand O’Hare International Airport won out over protests from residents of Bensenville, who fought to save their homes from being taken over."
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/07/25/ ... ghborhood/

Legal battles sounds a lot like mentioning of lawsuits to me. It was also only used for a handful of holdout property owners, not for the entire acquisition. Negotiations prior to filing of eminent domain takes a very long time, and is usually done over the course of one or two decades.

The remaining articles you mentioned either only involved one or two property owners, or a limited number of property owners following numerous rejections of settlement offers.

So, saying "lawsuits-smah-suits" isn't exactly accurate when every single instance you just cited involves a lawsuit, and many involve years of legal battles to move the project forward. The government does not have the ability to swoop in and quickly seize property, so if your suggestion that this strategy could be employed to expand SWF any time in the next two decades, it's an inaccurate representation of reality.
 
airliner371
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu May 31, 2018 10:02 pm

enilria wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
airliner371 wrote:
I don't know what you see, but I see room for four parallel runways and a large terminal in the middle. Not saying it'll happen, but I see the room.

I don't know what you see, but I see room for about four thousand lawsuits if anyone ever tried to build four parallel runways there! That's also assuming the land is theirs to build on. Even with four parallel runways, there still isn't the airspace available to handle that level of traffic without closing another airport. Not to mention that nobody in the NY metro area would travel to SWF over having LGA, JFK, or EWR close.

So you are looking for a space with no existing buildings close to NYC and larger than JFK. Excuse me while I stop laughing.

Obviously they would use imminent domain to take those existing properties. You don't understand much about the process. Take a look at Google Earth before and after a runway was added at any existing U.S. airport and you'll see in nearly every case there was much more dense use of the land than that. Lawsuits-smah-suits. This isn't LHR. There is a long history for using imminent domain for such projects in the USA and as long as it isn't in HPN where people have *a lot* of money, nothing is going to stop it. OTOH, it's not going to happen because the whole thread is pie in the sky. They are rebuilding both LGA and JFK.

enilria, we rarely agree, but I think I pretty much agree with everything you said. It's not gonna happen, but if they (NYS) wanted to make it happen, it would happen, and it'd be efficient and large.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:18 pm

e38 wrote:
Quoting ODwyerPW (reply #17) " . . . when looking at SWF, that it's big runway is over 15000' long. It's long."

Where did you come up with that number?

My Jepp chart indicates Runway 9 / 27 is 11,817 feet long. It is not "over 15,000' long" as you stated.

When you take into account the displaced thresholds on both ends of the runway, the usable length for landing distance computations for Runway 9 is only 8,817 feet and for Runway 27 it is 9,817 feet.

e38



Apparently I pulled that number out of thin air decades ago. For some reason... When Stewart was Stewart Air Force Base, I thought they had a long 15,000 foot runway for very heavy loaded military transport. I'm wrong... and have been for some time. A quick check on Wikipedia confirmed it for me.... Funny how sometimes we just operate with bad information... Thanks for correcting me...
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:21 pm

DaveFly wrote:
As for SWF, runway 9/27 is just under 12000 ft, not 15000, as someone stated above. It also has a displaced threshold of 2000 feet on both ends.


Yeah, that was me... operating with bad information... I can't tell you the number of times for the last 25 years I've heard myself say: "well Stewart's has a runway almost 3 miles long." hahaha. Oh well. Silly me!
 
tp1040
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:15 pm

N62NA wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
How about a mega airport in Central NJ, near McGuire AFB. Something like DEN with the full ~12 runway and 5 concourse build out.

Replace/close JFK, EWR, LGA, PHL, TTN.

Connect it to downtowns and transportation hubs in NYC and Philly with frequent (every 10-15 mins) high speed rail. It could be just as quick as getting to/from these airports during rush hour. Eliminating all those airports and conflicting airspace would be huge. The efficiency gains for airlines only having to serve 1 airport instead of ~4 would be huge. This would be, by far, the biggest and busiest airport in the world... but if planned well, could operate wonderfully. Picture triple simultaneous arrivals, all day long, of heavies.



Best post of the topic.



Little do you know that this was proposed prior to the mess that is NY airspace. Basically, in 1960 it was proposed to build the world's largest "jetport."

It would have been huge, even by today's standards. The treehuggers go involved and blocked the development of the PIne Barrens.
 
tp1040
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:38 pm

The best, but not the cheapest and possibly the wildest.

Build another runway EWR over by the railroad tracks. Extend 29/11 while you are at it.

Close LGA

Build 2 new runways at JFK. One north of 13l/31r and one south of 13r/31l in Jamaica bay. Dedicated high speed subway to downtown Manhattan and add a new terminal between the new southern runway 13r/31l
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8077
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:03 am

A NYC mayor once bought an airline ticket to New York City. When he landed in Newark, he complained loudly that Newark was NOT New York City. His name? LaGuardia. That airport ain’t closing, period.

To build those parallels, you’ll have buy up four neighborhoods, three north and one in Jamaica Bay. Opposition will be fierce!

GF
 
nikeherc
Posts: 683
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:50 am

CAE
http://www.columbiatribune.com/article/ ... /305259926

http://www.mlive.com/news/jackson/index ... _home.html[/quote]

Nether of the articles mentioned refer to CAE, the Columbia, SC Metropolitan Airport. CAE is located in Lexington County, South Carolina and is operated by the Richland-Lexington Airport Commission. The City of Columbia is primarily located in Richland County, with small areas in Lexington County. CAE has a program of buying surrounding properties as they become available.
 
KD5MDK
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:19 am

There's no technical reason NJT can't run trains from Trenton to Jamaica right now. (Yes, there's different electrification standards but that's a relatively simple fix.)
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:39 am

FA9295 wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF

That and HPN.

I thought White Plains had closed??
 
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PatrickZ80
Posts: 4642
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:44 am

tp1040 wrote:
The best, but not the cheapest and possibly the wildest.

Build another runway EWR over by the railroad tracks. Extend 29/11 while you are at it.

Close LGA

Build 2 new runways at JFK. One north of 13l/31r and one south of 13r/31l in Jamaica bay. Dedicated high speed subway to downtown Manhattan and add a new terminal between the new southern runway 13r/31l


The fact that you have to come up with such ridiculous solutions for expansion proves that these airports absolutely cannot be expanded. Any future expansion has to come from other airports that don't exist yet.

Building in the Jamaica bay is absolutely impossible, it's a protected nature reserve where nothing is allowed to be built. Everywhere else around the airports is the city so you can't expand there either.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
A NYC mayor once bought an airline ticket to New York City. When he landed in Newark, he complained loudly that Newark was NOT New York City. His name? LaGuardia. That airport ain’t closing, period.

To build those parallels, you’ll have buy up four neighborhoods, three north and one in Jamaica Bay. Opposition will be fierce!

GF


That's nothing new, lots of cities got their airports outside the city in a neighbouring area that doesn't actually make part of the city. Amsterdam airport for example isn't in Amsterdam, it's in Haarlemmermeer. That's close to Amsterdam, but not actually in Amsterdam. The fact that this mayor complained about that proves that he knew nothing of the world.
 
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monomojo
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:39 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:19 am

ltbewr wrote:
EWR, LGA & JFK will all have to face potential issues of Global Warming/Climate Change rising the oceans and adjacent waterways, they directly border or are very close to tidal waters, so all 3 could be unusable in full or part decades from now. There are no real place to put a new airport due to topography, huge environmental issues, fears of losses of value of residential properties, general NIMBY and nowhere the 100 Billion+ in today's money to do another airport. ISP could take some heat from JFK/LGA. SWF is too far from most of the NYC area to be practical for most to access. Almost 50 years ago there was an attempt to put a huge airport in the 'Great Swamp' area south of Morristown, but that became impossible due to the critical environmental factors of the area (now it is largely a Federally protected area).
What I think will have to happen is to have more direct/non-stop international services from airports in smaller cities rather than have to go through the JFK/EWR, push most international LLC's and dedicated freighters to SWF.


If those 3 airports become threatened by rising sea levels, they'll just shut them down one at a time, strip them down to grade, install seawalls, backfill to a safe height, and rebuild. No way they're ever allowed to close. EWR might not even have to completely shut down to do that, they could close one runway at a time while they're brought up to the new grade. Also wouldn't be surprised if the new terminals at LGA have been planned taking into account projected future sea levels.
 
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monomojo
Posts: 87
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Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:38 am

BENAir01 wrote:
America’s issue is it’s reluctance to try high speed rails... I was in Shanghai and had no issue getting from the city to PVG for a flight. If NYC builds a new airport, if it builds a high speed rail it would be okay. The question would just be where. Likely it would be built south if Long Island, but Jamaica bay for example is a no no.


There's only one high-speed rail into PVG, and that's the maglev, which doesn't even go all the way into the city. To get to the maglev if you're coming from Lujiazui or the other side of the river, you're either transferring from the metro at Longyang Road or taking a taxi to get there, and then paying the 50 yuan premium for the maglev.. The maglev serves the area around the Expo Center and that's about it. Other than that, yeah, the high-speed rail situation in the US sucks, no doubt about it.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8077
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:18 pm

Patrick,

You might read up on LaGuardia history, airport and mayor, first.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaGuardia_Airport
 
BENAir01
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:18 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF

That and HPN.

I thought White Plains had closed??

Where did you hear that?!?! I sure hope its not closed, because then Ive been landing and taking off and parking my Piper at a closed airport for 10 years and no ones old me...
 
BENAir01
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:19 pm

tp1040 wrote:
The best, but not the cheapest and possibly the wildest.

Build another runway EWR over by the railroad tracks. Extend 29/11 while you are at it.

Close LGA

Build 2 new runways at JFK. One north of 13l/31r and one south of 13r/31l in Jamaica bay. Dedicated high speed subway to downtown Manhattan and add a new terminal between the new southern runway 13r/31l

Unfortunately they cant build a new runway in the Jamaica Bay, I believe its a protected wildlife area. Someone please confirm or deny this.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4642
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:51 pm

BENAir01 wrote:
Unfortunately they cant build a new runway in the Jamaica Bay, I believe its a protected wildlife area. Someone please confirm or deny this.


Confirmed. Indeed building in the Jamaica bay is not allowed. In short, JFK cannot expand. Impossible. Neither can LaGuardia and Newark.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4642
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:17 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Patrick,

You might read up on LaGuardia history, airport and mayor, first.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaGuardia_Airport


I did, it told me nothing new. I still think that mayor was an idiot for demanding a New York airport to actually be within the city limits of New York. A very stupid decision. What was wrong with Newark those days? It's not in New York, but like I said, a lot of cities around the world got their airports outside the city. New York was no exception, but the fool didn't take that. He made an issue out of a non-issue.

Same thing with JFK, then called Idlewild. Why did it have to be built? Newark could cut it, in those days it was still big enough to serve the entire city of New York. Allright, for some people it may have been at the other end of town but that's nothing special either. Lots of cities only got one airport and for some people that airport happens to be at the other end of town. Travelling halfway across the town to get to an airport is everyday practice for lots of people, why does New York have to be an exception? Why does New York have to have an airport on every street corner? Allright, that's an exaggeration but you get the idea.

But allright, I can imagine at a certain moment Newark alone couldn't handle it anymore. This may have been somewhere in the sixties or something like that. At that moment a new airport would be needed. It certainly didn't have to be as close to downtown New York as JFK and LaGuardia are, it could easily have been further away. Lots of places it could have been built back then. It didn't happen, they picked an area very close to downtown New York to build JFK. Looking back this wasn't the perfect location, it's completely locked up and cannot expand. If they'd have built it further away from the city center this would have been less of an issue.

Fixing those mistakes made many years ago is going to cost a lot of money, but eventually it will be inevitable. The current situation just cannot continue, the airports are placed in unlogical places far too close to the city center. Since neither of them can expand the whole city cannot expand. This is holding everything back. A long-term solution needs to be found.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:29 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
BENAir01 wrote:
Unfortunately they cant build a new runway in the Jamaica Bay, I believe its a protected wildlife area. Someone please confirm or deny this.


Confirmed. Indeed building in the Jamaica bay is not allowed. In short, JFK cannot expand. Impossible. Neither can LaGuardia and Newark.

Can they expand Stewart out on long Island??
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4642
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:48 pm

You mean Long Island MacArthur? Stewart isn't anywhere near Long Island. Certainly it's a lot easier to expand MacArthur than it is to expand JFK. It's surrounded by suburbs that are far less costly to tear down than it is to tear down the surroundings of JFK for expansion. The train can easily be extended to offer a direct train connection between MacArthur and New York city center. I'd think MacArthur could totally replace JFK. As I said before, it will require a few suburbs to be torn down but that can be done. If you tear down JFK as well and sell that ground to the city it will easily cover the costs.

Stewart can be expanded as well. It's at the other end of town and quite a bit out of the way, but that doesn't have to be a problem. There is a railway line running quite near the airport, it can easily be extended onto the airport. It's single track, but can be doubled. Only a few houses have to be torn down in order to expand this airport, a small price to pay. With frequent trains running between Stewart Airport and Hoboken it could be a replacement for Newark.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: New NYC airport

Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:06 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Let's say you build an entirely new, big airport in Ramapo or Sloatsburg. That's the edge of the city limits, a similar location to London Heathrow. There's a highway and railway nearby, so it can easily be connected. There's plenty of room, not just for the airport but for everything around it as well. Hotels, offices, etc. This area can well be developed. London is the living proof that people don't mind taking a transfer from the airport to the city as long as this transfer is convenient. It can be made convenient. Proximity only has a very limited value, it's travel time that counts. Ramapo or Sloatsburg can be reached quite fast from the center of New York. Of course it would mean transfering depending on where in the city you need to be, but that's the case in London too. Not all of London has non-stop connections to Heathrow either. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work.


Take a look at the terrain in that area and you might rethink that proposal.

One large difference between London and New York is that New York is hemmed in by mountains not too far away. They're not huge mountains, but they're big enough to make an airport near them thoroughly impractical. All the land leading up to them is full. So the only viable solution is to build an airport in the sea (vulnerable to storms and flooding due to coastal geography), or take over McGwire AFB and rebuild and expand it for commercial use (but now your airport is closer to Philadelphia than NYC). Neither is a good option.

Most practical thing that could be done would be to build a third 13/31 at JFK, which would allow for double arrival and departure runways in the most common configurations.

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