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BrokenMachine
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New NYC airport

Tue May 29, 2018 7:05 pm

I just read that once the new IST is finished the old IST will close and be turned into a city park. The old IST is completely surrounded by the city, the new IST is outside the city.

Here in NYC we have a similar problem. JFK, EWR and LGA are completely surrounded by the city, they sit on very expensive ground. Should we do the same they do in IST and build a new NYC airport outside the city replacing our current airports? This would cost a lot of money, but can be earned back when the land from the old airports becomes available. Unlike IST we don't need to put parks up there, we already got Central Park, but houses and offices can be put up there. That brings in big money. Plus we get rid of the planes in the city making it a nicer place to live.
 
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enilria
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Re: New NYC airport

Tue May 29, 2018 10:24 pm

It’s called SWF
 
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FA9295
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Re: New NYC airport

Tue May 29, 2018 10:37 pm

enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF

That and HPN.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: New NYC airport

Tue May 29, 2018 10:43 pm

enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF


Yeah, no.
Image

There is no where to expand.
 
jplatts
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Re: New NYC airport

Tue May 29, 2018 10:50 pm

There is also ISP on Long Island in the NYC metro area, and ISP is already served by WN, AA, and F9. WN could expand ISP again by bringing back ISP-MDW nonstop service and by adding nonstop service to at least ATL, DAL, DEN, and STL out of ISP.
 
Bricktop
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Re: New NYC airport

Tue May 29, 2018 10:50 pm

FA9295 wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF

That and HPN.


LOL at HPN. ;)

Hell will freeze over before that gets expanded. Before one considers the lack (lake) of space available, there's very expensive real estate and powerful folk in Greenwich, CT and Armonk, NY who may just weigh in on the subject.
Last edited by Bricktop on Tue May 29, 2018 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
cokepopper
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Re: New NYC airport

Tue May 29, 2018 10:54 pm

Just use Staten Island. Great location! No one will even miss what’s left after demolition. Just think of the possibilities.
 
airliner371
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Re: New NYC airport

Tue May 29, 2018 10:55 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF


Yeah, no.
Image

There is no where to expand.

I don't know what you see, but I see room for four parallel runways and a large terminal in the middle. Not saying it'll happen, but I see the room.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: New NYC airport

Tue May 29, 2018 11:14 pm

FA9295 wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF

That and HPN.


Unfortunately, no. Lot's of NIMBY's already hate the airport (although they use it as well lol) and there isn't much space for expansion. It's a great alternative airport if you live in that area of Connecticut/New York and don't feel like going to LGA/JFK/EWR, but it will stay a very small regional airport for the foreseeable future.
 
spacecadet
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 3:13 am

Well I suppose it's about the six month mark for this topic to come back up... it always does around that time...

The obvious answer is no. Unworkable. Not without completely rebuilding the region's highways and transit systems. EWR is convenient to those in NJ and points west of the city, JFK is convenient to those in LI and points east of the city, and LGA is convenient to those in the city. Where would one airport for the entire metro area go? Staten Island is not convenient to anybody. NJ is ridiculously inconvenient to the 8 million people on Long Island (I'm one of them). I would imagine JFK is the same for people in NJ. There's just no good way through or around the city, because of its geography and its ancient highway system.

Same with public transport, which all terminates at Penn Station. You're going to ask people on LI to transfer to a NJT train at Penn, *then* to an AirTrain, or vice versa? No, all those people are just going to get on Ubers instead, which is going to completely demolish traffic even worse than Uber already has.

Can't work, won't work, will never happen.

Also, your assumptions about land values is extremely optimistic. Land values in the entire city are affected by their proximity to the three airports. *Too* close, and the value goes down. But within a reasonable proximity, the value goes up. As of now, the entire metro area is within a reasonable distance to a major airport. But consolidate the three airports into one and you'll be cutting off a large portion of the metro area. That area's land values will go down. So whatever new revenue you get from selling the land under JFK, LGA and EWR will be more than offset by the loss of tax revenues from the areas those airports no longer support. And I'm not saying the entire region's tax base will crash, but even if the tax assessment on a plot goes from $8,000 to $7,000, and you multiply that by hundreds of thousands or even millions of plots, you are talking a large amount of money.

It's not as if the airports don't contribute any revenue to the city either. You're at best talking about a one-time infusion of cash as you sell the land. After that, you're just dealing forever with lower tax revenues across much of the region.
 
nikeherc
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 3:20 am

The problem is that you’re talking a very large metro area. The existing airports are all more or less accessible from within the metro. If you move it to the country you are going to create unacceptably long commute times from parts of the metro. If you put one on each side, you have spent way too much money. One airport won’t do it.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 3:33 am

FA9295 wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF

That and HPN.

Not exactly. Certainly not if the goal is to replace LGA, JFK, EWR, and/or TEB. Not only do they completely lack the space and infrastructure to cope with capacity, but if any of the aforementioned airports remained open, the airspace design alone while limit expansion at either HPN or SWF just like it does now. Even PHL gets screwed by NYC traffic. Keeping LGA/JFK/EWR/TEB open and adding any kind of significant capacity to HPN or SWF just isn't an option. We fed HPN at 40 miles in trail a couple of months ago, which doesn't exactly make for an efficient operation.

The only potential solution would be a Borris Island sort of idea. One airport to replace everything (at least for commercial service). But as history has shown, whenever a large replacement airport is built, the more convenient airport ends up remaining open, making the whole idea fairly moot. DCA/IAD, DAL/DFW, HOU/IAH, etc. The only way it would work is if everything else is closed. It would probably be one of the most expensive infrastructure projects in US history, people would be pissed about losing access to more convenient airports, and no one would be happy.

Realistically, nothing will be done to affect the status quo. LGA will continue to be a basketcase with some of the worst delays in the system, JFK won't be far behind, TEB will continue to barely cope, and EWR will only just keep managing to be halfway functional. A lot of people here think the issue holding these airports back from expanding is lack of gates and runways, but the issue is airspace. There just isn't enough to manage all of the traffic flows, particularly when weather moves in (which is more often than not). One single airport would help, but definitely not fix the problem.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 3:41 am

airliner371 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Yeah, no.
Image

There is no where to expand.

I don't know what you see, but I see room for four parallel runways and a large terminal in the middle. Not saying it'll happen, but I see the room.

I don't know what you see, but I see room for about four thousand lawsuits if anyone ever tried to build four parallel runways there! That's also assuming the land is theirs to build on. Even with four parallel runways, there still isn't the airspace available to handle that level of traffic without closing another airport. Not to mention that nobody in the NY metro area would travel to SWF over having LGA, JFK, or EWR close.
 
a/c dxer
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 3:52 am

Would a airport built like RJBB Osaka be feasible?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:00 am

a/c dxer wrote:
Would a airport built like RJBB Osaka be feasible?

Technically, sure. You'd end up spending about $200 billion in the process. Considering they're struggling to get the $30 billion Gateway Tunnel built, that's probably not the most realistic option.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:04 am

Well JFK is getting its terminals reconfigured. Still it isn't a good airport for cross alliance connections. Until there is an airside connector, changing terminals will be a drag. The presence of LGA fairly close by siphons domestic traffic that could feed JFK's international connections.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:09 am

ikolkyo wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF


Yeah, no.

There is no where to expand.



You have to remember when looking at SWF, that it's big runway is over 15000' long. It's long. You wouldn't need 3 or 4 runways that long if you expanded...
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:19 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF


Yeah, no.

There is no where to expand.



You have to remember when looking at SWF, that it's big runway is over 15000' long. It's long. You wouldn't need 3 or 4 runways that long if you expanded...


If long haul flights are intended to expand there they'll need another runway of 11000' to 12000'. The third and fourth should be about 9000'. In addition, they could ban older aircraft types to lower noise.
 
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FA9295
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:45 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Yeah, no.

There is no where to expand.



You have to remember when looking at SWF, that it's big runway is over 15000' long. It's long. You wouldn't need 3 or 4 runways that long if you expanded...


If long haul flights are intended to expand there they'll need another runway of 11000' to 12000'. The third and fourth should be about 9000'. In addition, they could ban older aircraft types to lower noise.

Well, Norwegian has "long-haul" flights out of SWF... ;)

No, they're not widebody, but still...
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:56 am

FA9295 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:


You have to remember when looking at SWF, that it's big runway is over 15000' long. It's long. You wouldn't need 3 or 4 runways that long if you expanded...


If long haul flights are intended to expand there they'll need another runway of 11000' to 12000'. The third and fourth should be about 9000'. In addition, they could ban older aircraft types to lower noise.

Well, Norwegian has "long-haul" flights out of SWF... ;)

No, they're not widebody, but still...


If SWF is to ever be a long haul hub, it will need the runways I described.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:58 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

If long haul flights are intended to expand there they'll need another runway of 11000' to 12000'. The third and fourth should be about 9000'. In addition, they could ban older aircraft types to lower noise.

Well, Norwegian has "long-haul" flights out of SWF... ;)

No, they're not widebody, but still...


If SWF is to ever be a long haul hub, it will need the runways I described.


It would also need high speed commuter rail to Penn Station in NYC.
 
rj1385
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 5:20 am

ikolkyo wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF


Yeah, no.
Image

There is no where to expand.



SWF is over twice as large compared to LGA (acreage). Lots of room for expansion. Many structures have come down in the last 10 years. Some land to clear, but lots of room.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 5:56 am

spacecadet wrote:
The obvious answer is no. Unworkable. Not without completely rebuilding the region's highways and transit systems. EWR is convenient to those in NJ and points west of the city, JFK is convenient to those in LI and points east of the city, and LGA is convenient to those in the city. Where would one airport for the entire metro area go? Staten Island is not convenient to anybody. NJ is ridiculously inconvenient to the 8 million people on Long Island (I'm one of them). I would imagine JFK is the same for people in NJ. There's just no good way through or around the city, because of its geography and its ancient highway system.


I don't agree, I think it can work if done right. Let's compare New York to a city of similar size, London. Not saying London is perfect, but it's good enough for comparison.

Unlike New York, London doesn't have it's major airports inside the city limits. Only London City airport, which is smaller than La Guardia, is inside the city but is very limited. Heathrow is just at the edge of the city limits, the rest are all way outside the city. That debounces the statement that the land value is based on it's proximity to the airports. In London that isn't the case, the most expensive ground is in the city of London and the further from the city the cheaper the land gets. Land around Heathrow is nowhere near as expensive as land near Buckingham Palace for example. Even London City airport isn't built on the most expensive ground in the city. In the case of New York, that would mean Manhattan would be the most expensive. That's the city center. The further from Manhattan, the cheaper it gets.

Let's say you build an entirely new, big airport in Ramapo or Sloatsburg. That's the edge of the city limits, a similar location to London Heathrow. There's a highway and railway nearby, so it can easily be connected. There's plenty of room, not just for the airport but for everything around it as well. Hotels, offices, etc. This area can well be developed. London is the living proof that people don't mind taking a transfer from the airport to the city as long as this transfer is convenient. It can be made convenient. Proximity only has a very limited value, it's travel time that counts. Ramapo or Sloatsburg can be reached quite fast from the center of New York. Of course it would mean transfering depending on where in the city you need to be, but that's the case in London too. Not all of London has non-stop connections to Heathrow either. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 12:34 pm

What about opening up TEB to commercial operation. Seems like it might be possible to make non-intersecting runways with a terminal in the middle to get extra capacity.
 
johns624
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 12:50 pm

NYC cannot be compared to LON. Although the populations may be similar, the geography is totally different. The Hudson, Harlem, and East Rivers, along with Long Island Sound, all produce "chokepoints" for highways and railways.
 
evank516
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 1:21 pm

The only option is to divert traffic to the reliever airports in the NYC area with the current infrastructure they have. ISP has room, SWF has room. I think ISP is even trying to lengthen their runways, but there's plenty of room for more flights there. It's getting the airlines to move them over.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 1:22 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
enilria wrote:
It’s called SWF


Yeah, no.
Image

There is no where to expand.


No one said it would be easy, but expanding SWF and the impacts is 100x easier than building new. Sure LGA/EWR and JFK will always be preferred but sooner or later they will be full and the market will drive the fares up. When those airports reach capacity, no one will, or should be offering $69 fares to Florida...
 
richierich
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 1:46 pm

evank516 wrote:
The only option is to divert traffic to the reliever airports in the NYC area with the current infrastructure they have. ISP has room, SWF has room. I think ISP is even trying to lengthen their runways, but there's plenty of room for more flights there. It's getting the airlines to move them over.


I totally agree - can't speak too much about ISP but I imagine its the same issue. The only way you are ever going to get the airlines to offer more than token service at SWF is by improving the infrastructure. I won't get greedy and ask for a high speed rain connection to midtown, but how about a one-seat ride directly to the airport (preferably by train)? If that's impossible, how about a dedicated bus lane all the way to SWF that is less affected by traffic especially through the Bronx and across the Tappan Zee Bridge?

It's all pie in the sky stuff at the moment because we don't even have a one seat ride to LGA or JFK from midtown using public transportation, so I doubt I'll live long enough to see anything like that at SWF or ISP. But if they want to get serious about providing overflow flight options, that'd be a great start.
 
BENAir01
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 2:01 pm

America’s issue is it’s reluctance to try high speed rails... I was in Shanghai and had no issue getting from the city to PVG for a flight. If NYC builds a new airport, if it builds a high speed rail it would be okay. The question would just be where. Likely it would be built south if Long Island, but Jamaica bay for example is a no no.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 2:20 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
What about opening up TEB to commercial operation. Seems like it might be possible to make non-intersecting runways with a terminal in the middle to get extra capacity.

For one thing, it can't, I'm pretty sure TEB is specifically prohibited from scheduled commercial ops. For another thing, where would all of the bizjet traffic go? It's already at its max for the traffic it does handle. TEB/CDW/MMU are all treated as one airport flow wise (so you can't just send the bizjets to CDW/MMU instead), so it wouldn't do much to alleviate commercial congestion, and it would displace all of the bizjet traffic.

Unfortunately there's only so much airspace available to add more airplanes into a confined space. Simply adding more flights to nearby airports doesn't fix the problem, it compounds to it. Like I said before, more gates and runways isn't the fix here. The only significant improvements would come from closing and replacing existing airports, and that'll never happen in my lifetime.
 
rj1385
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 2:33 pm

When the Port Authority took over SWF there was many discussions about how it was going to expand the NY market. Yes a good chunk of the talk was marketing spin, but still. One of the items pointed out at the time was that SWF was just above the congested NYC airspace. It's landing and takeoffs are not affected by surrounding airports.

Part of the reason to keep TEB private and noncommercial I believe was because of the congested airspace.

Image

SWF has long had the plan to take out tower hill which is across the apron from the terminal. Tower hill was man made for the original tower which has been removed and replaced by the new tower behind the Cessna hangar. That is a huge chunk of land and could be the best location for a new terminal.

This picture also has the two old hangars that have been removed as well just above the terminal. The 20000 sq.ft. addition for international flight processing will be on that side of the terminal as Norwegian uses gates 1 + 2.
 
MO11
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 2:48 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
What about opening up TEB to commercial operation. Seems like it might be possible to make non-intersecting runways with a terminal in the middle to get extra capacity.


You're kidding, right? Traffic can't get in and out of TEB now because of EWR (and to a lessor degree LGA).
 
evank516
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 3:46 pm

richierich wrote:
evank516 wrote:
The only option is to divert traffic to the reliever airports in the NYC area with the current infrastructure they have. ISP has room, SWF has room. I think ISP is even trying to lengthen their runways, but there's plenty of room for more flights there. It's getting the airlines to move them over.


I totally agree - can't speak too much about ISP but I imagine its the same issue. The only way you are ever going to get the airlines to offer more than token service at SWF is by improving the infrastructure. I won't get greedy and ask for a high speed rain connection to midtown, but how about a one-seat ride directly to the airport (preferably by train)? If that's impossible, how about a dedicated bus lane all the way to SWF that is less affected by traffic especially through the Bronx and across the Tappan Zee Bridge?

It's all pie in the sky stuff at the moment because we don't even have a one seat ride to LGA or JFK from midtown using public transportation, so I doubt I'll live long enough to see anything like that at SWF or ISP. But if they want to get serious about providing overflow flight options, that'd be a great start.


However, you have two-seat rides from EWR, JFK, LGA, and ISP. They might even have them from SWF if they still run the shuttle bus to the Metro North Station, it's either Beacon or Poughkeepsie. I think ISP is it's own Class C airspace as well, and the traffic destined for JFK are still high enough in altitude to not interfere with ISP at all. Having the majors launch flights at least to main hubs (DL to ATL/DTW, UA to ORD, AA to CLT/DFW, they already do ISP-PHL) may alleviate some congestion at the big three since Long Island is so densely populated in and of itself. The problem is ISP is off the Ronkonkoma Branch of the LIRR and other parts of Long Island aren't so that would require a change in Jamaica (all the way west to go all the way east) to get there via LIRR plus the shuttle ride from the station. If they're going to Jamaica then they might as well fly out of JFK.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:05 pm

BENAir01 wrote:
America’s issue is it’s reluctance to try high speed rails... I was in Shanghai and had no issue getting from the city to PVG for a flight. If NYC builds a new airport, if it builds a high speed rail it would be okay. The question would just be where. Likely it would be built south if Long Island, but Jamaica bay for example is a no no.


Getting rights of way for a new set of high speed commuter rails can be problematic in the US, especially in densely populated areas like the northeast. Land owners are likely to protest eminent domain.
 
GolfBravoRomeo
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:25 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Unfortunately there's only so much airspace available to add more airplanes into a confined space. Simply adding more flights to nearby airports doesn't fix the problem, it compounds to it. Like I said before, more gates and runways isn't the fix here. The only significant improvements would come from closing and replacing existing airports, and that'll never happen in my lifetime.


What happens today when a line of severe thunderstorms stalls over LANNA / PARKE intersections?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:29 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
No one said it would be easy, but expanding SWF and the impacts is 100x easier than building new. Sure LGA/EWR and JFK will always be preferred but sooner or later they will be full and the market will drive the fares up. When those airports reach capacity, no one will, or should be offering $69 fares to Florida...


They are already full, the market is already driving the fares up. Newark is said to be the most expensive airport in the whole USA when it comes to landing and handling fees.

I think what has been stated here is that you don't need to have your major airports near the city center. There are plenty of big cities around the world where the major airports are outside the city and still they are convenient. New York puts too much focus on proximity.

The opening post started with the example of Istanbul. The old Istanbul airport cannot expand at it's current location, so it is replaced by a new airport in a location where it can expand. Take Moscow as another example. It's a big city, but all of it's commercial airports are located outside the city. Or what about Kuala Lumpur. The old Kuala Lumpur airport, Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah, is located very convenient inside the city but it's small and cannot expand. They built an entirely new airport outside the city that is now a mega hub. That would never have been possible at the location of the old airport. And I'm sure there are plenty more examples.

If all of those cities can have their airports outside the city and be succesful with it, why can't New York? Why are they so attached to the current locations of their airports?
 
jplatts
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:34 pm

evank516 wrote:
The problem is ISP is off the Ronkonkoma Branch of the LIRR and other parts of Long Island aren't so that would require a change in Jamaica (all the way west to go all the way east) to get there via LIRR plus the shuttle ride from the station. If they're going to Jamaica then they might as well fly out of JFK.


A 4-mile railroad spur could be built between the passenger terminal at ISP and the LIRR tracks, and it would be possible to run trains between ISP and New York Penn Station if this 4-mile railroad spur is built.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:47 pm

evank516 wrote:
If they're going to Jamaica then they might as well fly out of JFK.


But let's imagine JFK isn't anymore. It's closed, just like La Guardia and Newark. After all, that's what the topic started with. Those airports are too close to the city center so they'd have to be relocated. To where is yet to be determined, but they can't remain where they are because they can't grow there. Perhaps it would be hard to imagine, but let's try.

You can't always have an airport closeby, people in other cities don't have airports closeby either. Lots of big cities around the globe got their major airports located outside the city, that means the people living in those cities have to travel to get to the airport.

Let's get back to the Kuala Lumpur example I've listed before. Say someone living in the center of Kuala Lumpur wants to fly. By your reasoning, they'd say "why would I get all the way to Kuala Lumpur International if Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah is closeby". That way we're getting nowhere, the big new international airport would never be succesful if people kept thinking in proximity. But here's the thing, people go where the flights are. Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah hardly has any flights left, but from Kuala Lumpur International you can fly to just about anywhere in the world. So that's reason to travel to a further airport. Same thing can apply to New York. Build a big new airport outside the city, move all flights there and close the old airports. People will use the new airport because that's where the flights are.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:49 pm

If ISP and SWF are to be considered as real airport options for New York, both would need a dedicated rail service to Manhattan ISP to Penn Station and SWF to at least, Grand Central Station.

Geography plays a very important roll if NYC is to ever have a new airport. Any new one would be unattractive to a region of the Tri State area.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 4:55 pm

GolfBravoRomeo wrote:
What happens today when a line of severe thunderstorms stalls over LANNA / PARKE intersections?

That's way out of my airspace. All of my NY Metro arrivals go over OTT/Nottingham, PXT/Patuxent, and SIE/Sea Isle, so it looks like they stay east of those intersections. If you're asking about departures, I'm not much help there, because I don't work 'em! If the NY Metro arrivals (PHLBO/DYLIN to EWR, JAIKE to TEB, KORRY to LGA, CAMRN to JFK) are affected by SWAP, most aircraft go northwest to feed in with the west arrivals. We've had a lot of days recently where aircraft have seriously had to go the long way around — all the way up to Cleveland Center to sequence.

LGA would reroute to JERES J220 FORTT MIP for the Milton arrival. (normally PXT KORRY)
EWR would reroute to AML J220 FORTT FQM for the Williamsport arrival. (normally FAK/OTT PHLBO)
TEB would reroute to AML J220 MICAH J227 STENT J70 LVZ for the Wilkes-Barre arrival. (normally FAK/OTT JAIKE or RAIMY VALLI JAIKE)
JFK can reroute to AML J227 STENT J70 LVZ for the LENDY arrival, but that's pretty rare. (normally SIE CAMRN)

Obviously there's a trend there. Basically everything goes over Armel to J220-227 (JERES is just north of AML on the jet route), so everything gets fed in trail on the the same route, whereas they'd normally be route separated.

Tl;dr - it's a mess, but that's par for the course on the NY Metros. LGA gets shut off pretty easily, and EWR will run everything they get thrown at them until the wheels fall off.
 
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NYPECO
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:55 am

Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 5:16 pm

There is no where to move JFK, EWR, and LGA without these airports being an unreasonably long distance from the city.
 
ltbewr
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Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

EWR, LGA & JFK will all have to face potential issues of Global Warming/Climate Change rising the oceans and adjacent waterways, they directly border or are very close to tidal waters, so all 3 could be unusable in full or part decades from now. There are no real place to put a new airport due to topography, huge environmental issues, fears of losses of value of residential properties, general NIMBY and nowhere the 100 Billion+ in today's money to do another airport. ISP could take some heat from JFK/LGA. SWF is too far from most of the NYC area to be practical for most to access. Almost 50 years ago there was an attempt to put a huge airport in the 'Great Swamp' area south of Morristown, but that became impossible due to the critical environmental factors of the area (now it is largely a Federally protected area).
What I think will have to happen is to have more direct/non-stop international services from airports in smaller cities rather than have to go through the JFK/EWR, push most international LLC's and dedicated freighters to SWF.
 
ruskistl
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 5:41 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
No one said it would be easy, but expanding SWF and the impacts is 100x easier than building new. Sure LGA/EWR and JFK will always be preferred but sooner or later they will be full and the market will drive the fares up. When those airports reach capacity, no one will, or should be offering $69 fares to Florida...


They are already full, the market is already driving the fares up. Newark is said to be the most expensive airport in the whole USA when it comes to landing and handling fees.

I think what has been stated here is that you don't need to have your major airports near the city center. There are plenty of big cities around the world where the major airports are outside the city and still they are convenient. New York puts too much focus on proximity.

The opening post started with the example of Istanbul. The old Istanbul airport cannot expand at it's current location, so it is replaced by a new airport in a location where it can expand. Take Moscow as another example. It's a big city, but all of it's commercial airports are located outside the city. Or what about Kuala Lumpur. The old Kuala Lumpur airport, Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah, is located very convenient inside the city but it's small and cannot expand. They built an entirely new airport outside the city that is now a mega hub. That would never have been possible at the location of the old airport. And I'm sure there are plenty more examples.

If all of those cities can have their airports outside the city and be succesful with it, why can't New York? Why are they so attached to the current locations of their airports?


I think both parts are right. You can build airports outside the city but it can't just be one. Look at Moscow. You got 3 huge airports that encircle the metro region. So no single area of the city is "all the way across town" from an airport. That's the political end of it, which presents huge hurdles for NYC. Which area gets the first airport? Second? Third? Fourth?

Also Moscow doesn't have nearly the geographic issues of New York. I think theses are actually smaller hurdles than the political arena.

I don't think it's impossible to see NYC airports move outside the city with aeroexpress trains like in Moscow . But it's very unlikely to happen in reality.
 
evank516
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Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 5:46 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
If they're going to Jamaica then they might as well fly out of JFK.


But let's imagine JFK isn't anymore. It's closed, just like La Guardia and Newark. After all, that's what the topic started with. Those airports are too close to the city center so they'd have to be relocated. To where is yet to be determined, but they can't remain where they are because they can't grow there. Perhaps it would be hard to imagine, but let's try.

You can't always have an airport closeby, people in other cities don't have airports closeby either. Lots of big cities around the globe got their major airports located outside the city, that means the people living in those cities have to travel to get to the airport.

Let's get back to the Kuala Lumpur example I've listed before. Say someone living in the center of Kuala Lumpur wants to fly. By your reasoning, they'd say "why would I get all the way to Kuala Lumpur International if Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah is closeby". That way we're getting nowhere, the big new international airport would never be succesful if people kept thinking in proximity. But here's the thing, people go where the flights are. Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah hardly has any flights left, but from Kuala Lumpur International you can fly to just about anywhere in the world. So that's reason to travel to a further airport. Same thing can apply to New York. Build a big new airport outside the city, move all flights there and close the old airports. People will use the new airport because that's where the flights are.


There's nothing to imagine because LGA, JFK, and EWR will never be shut down. Traffic can be diverted to one of the secondary airports to transform it into a fourth primary airport, but it will never happen. The OP's idea is not feasible. There is too much developed land in the NYC Area unless you want a direct Amtrak connection to ALB and have trains leaving for Penn every half hour, there's no place within reasonable distance with enough undeveloped land to build another major airport that would be needed for the New York Area. There are also terrain issues once you go north and west as you get into the start of the Catskills. Long Island is so densely developed that you can't fit anything else there. Maybe New Jersey, but then you leave Long Island out of the equation, and everything is too far even if we're not talking about close proximity. The way airports are constructed around the world are way different than America. The logic behind it in Singapore does not fit the logic of America.
 
blockski
Posts: 810
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 5:50 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
If they're going to Jamaica then they might as well fly out of JFK.


But let's imagine JFK isn't anymore. It's closed, just like La Guardia and Newark. After all, that's what the topic started with. Those airports are too close to the city center so they'd have to be relocated. To where is yet to be determined, but they can't remain where they are because they can't grow there. Perhaps it would be hard to imagine, but let's try.

You can't always have an airport closeby, people in other cities don't have airports closeby either. Lots of big cities around the globe got their major airports located outside the city, that means the people living in those cities have to travel to get to the airport.

Let's get back to the Kuala Lumpur example I've listed before. Say someone living in the center of Kuala Lumpur wants to fly. By your reasoning, they'd say "why would I get all the way to Kuala Lumpur International if Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah is closeby". That way we're getting nowhere, the big new international airport would never be succesful if people kept thinking in proximity. But here's the thing, people go where the flights are. Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah hardly has any flights left, but from Kuala Lumpur International you can fly to just about anywhere in the world. So that's reason to travel to a further airport. Same thing can apply to New York. Build a big new airport outside the city, move all flights there and close the old airports. People will use the new airport because that's where the flights are.


Ok - to engage with the hypothetical. All three existing airports would close, to be replaced by one giant super-airport further from the city, but connected via rail and transit links.

So, the big problem remains - where does the airport go? Where are you going to find the space to put it? You can't just build it outside of the city, you have to have an actual site to build on.

ISP and SWF are really quite small. SWF covers about 1,500 acres; ISP covers 1,300 acres. Compare that to JFK's 5,000 acres, or to the other US examples of new, bigger airports built further from the city center: IAH (10,000 acres), IAD (13,000 acres), DFW (17,000 acres), or DEN (33,500 acres). And in all of those cases, those large sites were assembled when the surrounding areas where mostly undeveloped. Those kinds of opportunities simply don't exist in and around New York. Where are you going to find a parcel of that size in the New York metro area? The area is heavily suburbanized.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10208
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 6:19 pm

ltbewr wrote:
EWR, LGA & JFK will all have to face potential issues of Global Warming/Climate Change rising the oceans and adjacent waterways, they directly border or are very close to tidal waters, so all 3 could be unusable in full or part decades from now. There are no real place to put a new airport due to topography, huge environmental issues, fears of losses of value of residential properties, general NIMBY and nowhere the 100 Billion+ in today's money to do another airport. ISP could take some heat from JFK/LGA. SWF is too far from most of the NYC area to be practical for most to access. Almost 50 years ago there was an attempt to put a huge airport in the 'Great Swamp' area south of Morristown, but that became impossible due to the critical environmental factors of the area (now it is largely a Federally protected area).
What I think will have to happen is to have more direct/non-stop international services from airports in smaller cities rather than have to go through the JFK/EWR, push most international LLC's and dedicated freighters to SWF.


You've raised some points that probably will be unpopular in this forum.

IMHO, if there's a capacity constraint with the three major NYC airports, connecting traffic can be routed elsewhere. (Let PANYNJ lobby for a 'connection tax'.) Look at the per-departure and per-runway counts at LHR and LGW. There's lots of room to scale up.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 6:42 pm

a/c dxer wrote:
Would a airport built like RJBB Osaka be feasible?


Feasible, yes. Astronomic costs. The infrastructure in this nation (roads, bridges, railroads) need attention much more than another airport. Politics gets in the way as always.
 
DaveFly
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:35 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 7:02 pm

Here we go again! It will never happen. Nor should it. The NY metro area is simply too big for one airport to handle. Although there’s overlap, EWR/JFK/LGA serve their respective geographic locations.

As for SWF, runway 9/27 is just under 12000 ft, not 15000, as someone stated above. It also has a displaced threshold of 2000 feet on both ends.

That picture is old. There is a lot of new commercial construction in the area.

Norwegian does indeed use 787s on some of the SWF routes, but they’re substitutes for when the 737s can’t handle the traffic.

I have an example here, taken a few weeks ago when I was sitting at SWF:

https://youtu.be/Mcsg1BsqV2I
 
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Matt6461
Posts: 2996
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:36 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 7:31 pm

There are much easier solutions than building a new single airport.
At the very least, you'd want to fill in parts of Jamaica Bay to expand JFK or relocate the Newark Container Terminal to expand EWR. Both of these options would be far cheaper than a Kansai or Boris Island option.
Filling in some of Jamaica Bay would be enormously unpopular but at a global level, were airfield constraints to limit NYC's growth, it's much better for the environment to pack humans into big cities like NYC. You'd probably save millions of acres of wetlands/tidelands on net.

The EWR expansion option would also require $billions but would be less environmentally disruptive. Containers could go many other places besides Newark - and probably at lower labor costs in the long run.

Massive expansion at EWR and/or JFK could enable closure of LGA, whose land sales could partially fund any such project.

It would be better, IMO, to force airlines to use NYC's airspace more effectively some day. There are hundreds of daily flights to places like ORD, SFO, LAX, BOS that could be consolidated onto widebodies under a given regulatory regime. You could, for example, force code-sharing between legacies on such routes and waive landing fees for planes carrying >400 pax on domestic routes. That might swing the economics in favor of up-gauging, make excess frequencies redundant, and the foregone landing fees would be far cheaper than $tens/hundreds of billions on new airfields.
 
blockski
Posts: 810
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: New NYC airport

Wed May 30, 2018 7:45 pm

Matt6461 wrote:
There are much easier solutions than building a new single airport.
At the very least, you'd want to fill in parts of Jamaica Bay to expand JFK or relocate the Newark Container Terminal to expand EWR. Both of these options would be far cheaper than a Kansai or Boris Island option.
Filling in some of Jamaica Bay would be enormously unpopular but at a global level, were airfield constraints to limit NYC's growth, it's much better for the environment to pack humans into big cities like NYC. You'd probably save millions of acres of wetlands/tidelands on net.

The EWR expansion option would also require $billions but would be less environmentally disruptive. Containers could go many other places besides Newark - and probably at lower labor costs in the long run.

Massive expansion at EWR and/or JFK could enable closure of LGA, whose land sales could partially fund any such project.

It would be better, IMO, to force airlines to use NYC's airspace more effectively some day. There are hundreds of daily flights to places like ORD, SFO, LAX, BOS that could be consolidated onto widebodies under a given regulatory regime. You could, for example, force code-sharing between legacies on such routes and waive landing fees for planes carrying >400 pax on domestic routes. That might swing the economics in favor of up-gauging, make excess frequencies redundant, and the foregone landing fees would be far cheaper than $tens/hundreds of billions on new airfields.


More effective rail transit would also undercut much of the short-haul flying out of the New York airports.

There's also the matter of airspace. New York's regional plan association did a deep dive on NYC's airports a while back, and the airspace conflicts are front and center.
http://library.rpa.org/pdf/RPA-Upgradin ... -Class.pdf

If you were going to close one airport, LGA would be the choice, since doing so would make use of the airspace into JFK and EWR much easier.

There's still the issue of noise, however. Adding more runways means more noise; changing the approaches means new noise over new areas, and people won't be happy about that at all.

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