mjoelnir
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:13 am

red66mustang wrote:
Seabear wrote:
red66mustang wrote:

A passport does not state who the child's parents are, it simply states identity and citizenship. While Birth Certificates (to my knowledge, mine does) states who the mother and father of the child are. The agent wouldn't have been able to confirm parenthood from a passport.

WN has that a birth certificate is required for children under 2 in their policies:
https://www.southwest.com/html/customer ... n-pol.html


Wrong. Government ID or birth certificate. Passport is most definitely a valid government ID:

From WN's own web site:

You must present a valid Government-issued I.D. providing age (child) or a birth certificate (infant) to the Customer Service Agent at the airport when you check in for your flight.


In your own quote I highlighted what you seem to be missing that it specifically says “or birth certificate (infant)”, so not just any govt issued I’d.

On WN’s website that I have already linked above under the traveling with infant section:

“A copy of the child's birth certificate is required to validate the age of all infants under two.”

Pretty clear cut IMO


It is pretty clear what the WN page says, at least on one place, birth certificate OR government issued identification. Perhaps you do not understand the use of or. Perhaps you ask an English teacher what or means. It does not mean the employee can chose what he/she chooses to accept.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:32 am

YellowJ wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
If only the father had been present, (who had a matching surname to the child) was present, there would presumably be no concern.

If so, why the concern when both parents are present.


Interestingly enough, he was there. Unless the child carries neither parent name, I can't see how this became such a issue with both parents present.

Hypothetically...

Where’s the proof that she’s his mom? What if she’s the fathers girlfriend and they are skipping town with his son violating custody? Birth certificate settles that. This is a hornets nest though.
 
airfrnt
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:33 am

Until my kids were old enough to answer questions or pay full price for a seat, I was asked for a birth certificate _every single time_ we flew. On a few occassions we had to produce something else with their birthday on it.... Married, white, etc.

Kinda doubt it was a racial thing.
 
red66mustang
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:37 am

mjoelnir wrote:
red66mustang wrote:
Seabear wrote:

Wrong. Government ID or birth certificate. Passport is most definitely a valid government ID:

From WN's own web site:

You must present a valid Government-issued I.D. providing age (child) or a birth certificate (infant) to the Customer Service Agent at the airport when you check in for your flight.


In your own quote I highlighted what you seem to be missing that it specifically says “or birth certificate (infant)”, so not just any govt issued I’d.

On WN’s website that I have already linked above under the traveling with infant section:

“A copy of the child's birth certificate is required to validate the age of all infants under two.”

Pretty clear cut IMO


It is pretty clear what the WN page says, at least on one place, birth certificate OR government issued identification. Perhaps you do not understand the use of or. Perhaps you ask an English teacher what or means. It does not mean the employee can chose what he/she chooses to accept.



Yes it is pretty clear what WN's website says. It calls for "government issued id (children) or birth certificate (infants)." By clarifying after each form of ID who they are acceptable for one can gather that only for infants is a birth certificate acceptable and only for children is a gov't issued ID acceptable. Not to mention in several other places on WN's site it says in bold, "be sure to bring along a copy of your infant's birth certificate for age verification."

https://www.southwest.com/html/customer ... d-pol.html
Last edited by red66mustang on Thu May 31, 2018 12:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
red66mustang
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:38 am

red66mustang wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
red66mustang wrote:

In your own quote I highlighted what you seem to be missing that it specifically says “or birth certificate (infant)”, so not just any govt issued I’d.

On WN’s website that I have already linked above under the traveling with infant section:

“A copy of the child's birth certificate is required to validate the age of all infants under two.”

Pretty clear cut IMO


It is pretty clear what the WN page says, at least on one place, birth certificate OR government issued identification. Perhaps you do not understand the use of or. Perhaps you ask an English teacher what or means. It does not mean the employee can chose what he/she chooses to accept.




Yes it is pretty clear what WN's website says. It calls for "government issued id (children) or birth certificate (infants)." By clarifying after each form of ID who they are acceptable for one can gather that only for infants is a birth certificate acceptable and only for children is a gov't issued ID acceptable. Not to mention in several other places on WN's site it says in bold, "be sure to bring along a copy of your infant's birth certificate for age verification."

https://www.southwest.com/html/customer ... d-pol.html
Last edited by red66mustang on Thu May 31, 2018 12:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:47 am

A birth certificate is easily forged. A passport much, much harder. And the kids facial features looked like mom. Very apparent.
 
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lydh
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:49 am

This literally happened a few weeks ago on The Handmaid's Tale (though not on a plane).
 
ubeema
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:49 am

Being a father of small children (1 and 4) I always make it a point to review the section “Traveling with infant” before we leave for airport just in case something new came up. Two weeks ago we flew Southwest with wifey and kiddos. I had both kiddos passports on hand AND the birth certificate for our 1yo because that’s it what the airline requires. Check in agent asked to see document IDs and we presented kids passport and our IDs. Agent did not insist on seeing BC however.

In this case I think the parents were “under-prepared” because they did not have the child birth certificate when they where asked to produce it, and the airline clearly requires a BC for lap infant (under 2). Per the mother’ tweet child is 1yo.

As far as the Facebook request, think it was an extra (and nice) check on the part of the agent to get this family off the hook, while trying to confirm the child is related to the adults present. We have to remember that only BC establishes the parent/child relationship

Image
Image
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:52 am

red66mustang wrote:
. Not to mention in several other places on WN's site it says in bold, "be sure to bring along a copy of your infant's birth certificate for age verification."

https://www.southwest.com/html/customer ... d-pol.html


The actual language from the link is "A copy of the child's birth certificate is required to validate the age of all infants under two." That is very clear; I fail to see how anyone could misunderstand.
 
D L X
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:59 am

Tugger wrote:
This is basically a non-story and due to a mother feeling sensitive and being predisposed to being offended. In the linked article she states:

"[Southewest] said because we have (a) different last name," Gottlieb wrote in one tweet. "My guess is (it's) because he has a different skin color."

The woman herself is going off because she is imagining it was due to a reason it is not. Per Southwest:
"Southwest Airlines’ policy is to verify lap children are younger than the age of two by reviewing a birth certificate or government issued identification."


I don't see a real issue based on what is being reported but of course the agent may have been dismissive or insensitive (which I can imagine because they were not doing what ht woman was imagining).

Tugg

The father was there too (who DOES have the same last name, and they still gave them grief. The kid’s passport has “Gottlieb” as a middle name, and they still gave them grief. I think you’re wrong here.
 
dragon6172
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 1:48 am

The page on southwest.com regarding traveling with infants and toddlers says a birth certificate is required in three or four different spots. Seems pretty clear to me. Also no mention of any other form of ID on this page.

On the "Age Verification" page it says travelers on age restricted fares (infant, senior, child) a proof of age must be provided. Birth certificate, drivers license , or other government ID that has birth date. This page may not even apply if she didnt have an Infant fare for the one year old.

Combining the two pages of info though, I would conclude a birth certificate is the required document.
Phrogs Phorever
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 1:58 am

Sorry WN was concerned that your child might have been kidnaped.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 2:12 am

Anyone who thinks this family was not discriminated against is blinded by their privilege.

If a traditional white family showed up with a child's passport they would accept it no questions asked.

Why?

1) A passport is much more difficult to forge than a birth certificate
2) You have to show the original birth certificate to get a child's passport anyway
3) A passport has a photo of the child to verify the identity
4) Every carrier, including WN, would want a passport and not a birth certificate if the family was travelling internationally.

In all situations regarding identity and age verification - a passport is superior to a birth certificate. Any airline agent that does not know this is an ignorant. If I were Ms. Gottlieb and her fiance, I would have called the police on the WN agent just so they could show him/her what an idiot they are.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 2:33 am

D L X wrote:
The father was there too (who DOES have the same last name, and they still gave them grief. The kid’s passport has “Gottlieb” as a middle name, and they still gave them grief. I think you’re wrong here.

And you know that this family was singled out for "grief" alone? I have not seen anything that says that the WN staffer singled this family out for this scrutiny. Can you show that?

As to the Facebook request, some have called it out as proof of.... whatever I don't know... but I can see someone using something like that to show if a kid is someone's. I don't care about the"official thing" aspect of it, I can see just saying to someone "You don't have the birth cert which is required, do you use Facebook?" It is a simple way to do a double check to validate a passport or whatever. I can see the agent wanting to help speed the situation not make it worse.

Again I am just simply not assigning race as the cause for the agents actions in this. Especially if the father and mother are there and you can see a child is likely biracial. Why do people here assume the agent was racist when both parents were there? But the woman immediately jumped to that which seems unneeded and.... well potentially racist (certainly racially charged).

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Thu May 31, 2018 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tugger
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 2:39 am

D L X wrote:
were not aware that a Passport qualifies as a birth certificate and

Just FYI, I am aware that a passport requires a birth cert to obtain (guess how I know :bigthumbsup: ) but it is entirely possible the agent may not and the policy does state "birth certificate". So again I just don't see (so far) anything that shows the agent singled this family out. I do honestly find it just as likely he/she has used the "Facebook method" before to double check.

So if I am proven wrong, I am proven wrong but for now I am not seeing racism as an overt action. And please know I say this all with respect and not blowing off peoples responses here, I am trying to show why I am thinking/posting what I am.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 2:58 am

If you don't have the birth certificate, you should be allowed to show a facebook post or a video from your appearance on the Maury show (the part that says "you ARE the father".
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 3:04 am

All you really need to just stop.

Airline agents are not responsible, empowered, or trained to prevent "kidnapping". Their responsibilty starts and stops with checking identification (due to governmental regulation on int'l) and verifying age (per under 2 company lap child policy). That's it.

If an agent really has reason to believe a crime is taking place, their responsibility is to inform law enforcement, not make judgement attempts, which are bound to be absurd. This only leads to massive inconsistency, and as previously said, will inevitably be subject to implicit bias.

Its Southwests own poorly stated and inconsistent documentation that is the undoing.

The previously pictured "Baby on Board" page from the website suggests that a birth certificate is required, however, it explicitly says that its to "validate the age"... AND then is a link on the left called "Age Verification"..... go ahead, check it out. You know what that MORE DETAILED page says?

"If you are traveling on a ticketed Infant Fare, Child Fare, or Senior Fare, you must present the traveler's proof of age (i.e., birth certificate, driver's license, or another government-issued photo ID that indicates the ticketed traveler's date of birth) to a Customer Service Agent at the airport in order to check in for your flight."

so there it is - Apparantly, if you purchase a non-discounted ticket for an infant YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO PROVIDE ANY ID WHATSOEVER.

lets think about that. according to all the law enforcement experts here, in order to "kidnap" any infant, you merely need to purchase a ticket for said child. No need to "prove their identity" or prove you're a parent. Ever occured to you folks, that flying with a child not your own isn't illegal, either?

Again, agents are not police officers investigating a suspected crime.

Summary: domestic flight on Southwest REQUIRES NO ID for a fully ticketed child. A lap infant requires only an accepted ID to verify that they are under 2 (thus eligible for lap seating). and finally, the airlines own stated "Age verification" detail page explicitly specifies "government-issued photo ID" as accepted.

THAT'S IT.
Nowhere is it stated, implied or suggested that "proof of parenthood" is remotely required.

The agent is wrong in every way, shape and form. The Passport is all that was required, END OF STORY.

By the way, I have personally traveled with children, not my own, with zero identification (for them).... because there actually is NO REQUIREMENT (I purchased seats for them).

The racial complaint by the customer is irrelevant. The agent so far wrong, its not funny.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 3:16 am

Yep. Airline only wants to make sure you’re not scamming a freebie with a child over two. Only reason they care about any ids. Everything else is didactic posturing.
 
D L X
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 3:20 am

FLYHAPPY nails it.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 3:22 am

Can't disagree.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 3:38 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
this story was so poorly reported, desk attendant? try ticket agent. And yes it's their job to ask for id when a parent is traveling with a child under the age of two and they suspect that the child is older than two. Lap children travel for free domestically and international they only have to pay 10% so parents sometimes lies
about the age of the child. Asking for birth certificate or passport, makes them pony up. In this case the child was probably under two but looked older, so they asked
for ID.


and they got the ID. the very authoritative passport which is clearly accepted under the carriers own "Age Verified" page. (https://www.southwest.com/html/customer ... e_verified)

The agent is in the wrong.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 3:38 am

this story was so poorly reported, desk attendant? try ticket agent. And yes it's their job to ask for id when a parent is traveling with a child under the age of two and they suspect that the child is older than two. Lap children travel for free domestically and international they only have to pay 10% so parents sometimes lies
about the age of the child. Asking for birth certificate or passport, makes them pony up. In this case the child was probably under two but looked older, so they asked
for ID.

I just saw the photo above, The baby looks to be about a year in that photo, it makes me wonder how old that photo is. I wouldn't of asked for id. unless they were traveling
internationally.
Last edited by DLFREEBIRD on Thu May 31, 2018 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
robsaw
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 3:39 am

Okie wrote:

Maybe you should do a little research on the rules and regulations required by Homeland Security/TSA.
You might appear informed.
If it was up to the airlines they would just be in the business of taking tickets and providing air travel.

I have run into same issues as well.
I will give you there is additional requirements if traveling with a minor of a different last name.
That can be a grandchild, adopted child, the next door neighbors child going with you on vacation or even minors going on a school/senior trip will require a letter of consent.

You will also need a letter of consent for a minor.
Passport.
Birth Certificate.

Nothing new

Okie

transmitted via smoke signal from mobile device


TSA does not have most of the ID requirements you list for a domestic flight, which this was. The airline may have their own req't's.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 3:59 am

Please discuss the aviation aspects of this topic. This isn't the place to discuss politics or culture — that's what the Non Aviation Forum is for.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
ubeema
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 4:10 am

FlyHappy wrote:
"If you are traveling on a ticketed Infant Fare, Child Fare, or Senior Fare, you must present the traveler's proof of age (i.e., birth certificate, driver's license, or another government-issued photo ID that indicates the ticketed traveler's date of birth) to a Customer Service Agent at the airport in order to check in for your flight."

so there it is - Apparantly, if you purchase a non-discounted ticket for an infant YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO PROVIDE ANY ID WHATSOEVER.


FlyHappy: SW language says “TICKETED”, children under 2 are not ticketed unless parents insist to pay for a seat. In the reported case the lap infant policy would apply thus request for BC as shown on the “Baby on board” page of SW. Do I get this wrong?
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 4:15 am

ubeema wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
"If you are traveling on a ticketed Infant Fare, Child Fare, or Senior Fare, you must present the traveler's proof of age (i.e., birth certificate, driver's license, or another government-issued photo ID that indicates the ticketed traveler's date of birth) to a Customer Service Agent at the airport in order to check in for your flight."

so there it is - Apparantly, if you purchase a non-discounted ticket for an infant YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO PROVIDE ANY ID WHATSOEVER.


FlyHappy: SW language says “TICKETED”, children under 2 are not ticketed unless parents insist to pay for a seat. In the reported case the lap infant policy would apply thus request for BC as shown on the “Baby on board” page of SW. Do I get this wrong?


Maybe my typed words were not clear. If you purchase a full adult ticket for a child, then no ID is required (assuming domestic travel). The only purpose of the ID is to verify that a passenger is eligible for a discount. Note this applies to a lap infant, a child fare (a different category), and a senior discount (to prove that your are old!).

So, clearly this is a commercial requirement, certainly not one of other posters imaginary law enforcement, "but what about the children" hysterics.
The travelers had a passport for the child. This is acceptable ID per Southwest.
That's it. Agent is in the wrong.
 
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seablue125
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 4:47 am

I do so hope that no one has an issue with this extra bit of caution that WN is using. Perhaps you may have heard of the terms "human trafficking" or "child abduction." These are very serious; and, need I add, a tragic and senseless reality of the times we live in. Child endangerment and abductions are fairly common; and though perhaps it isn't happening at your favorite airport (as far as you can recall); but could happen almost anywhere. When the safety of a child is involved, and if the airline staffer is not certain, then it behooves him/her asking further questions... or proof. Those mindful & caring parents will absolutely understand.
 
D L X
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 4:51 am

seablue125 wrote:
I do so hope that no one has an issue with this extra bit of caution that WN is using. Perhaps you may have heard of the terms "human trafficking" or "child abduction." These are very serious; and, need I add, a tragic and senseless reality of the times we live in. Child endangerment and abductions are fairly common; and though perhaps it isn't happening at your favorite airport (as far as you can recall); but could happen almost anywhere. When the safety of a child is involved, and if the airline staffer is not certain, then it behooves him/her asking further questions... or proof. Those mindful & caring parents will absolutely understand.

Do you think a woman whose last name is Gottlieb is likely to be human trafficking a child whose middle name is Gottlieb?

No. Let’s not confuse “happens” with “common.”
 
Duality
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 4:58 am

FlyHappy wrote:
All you really need to just stop.

Airline agents are not responsible, empowered, or trained to prevent "kidnapping". Their responsibilty starts and stops with checking identification (due to governmental regulation on int'l) and verifying age (per under 2 company lap child policy). That's it.

If an agent really has reason to believe a crime is taking place, their responsibility is to inform law enforcement, not make judgement attempts, which are bound to be absurd. This only leads to massive inconsistency, and as previously said, will inevitably be subject to implicit bias.

Its Southwests own poorly stated and inconsistent documentation that is the undoing.

The previously pictured "Baby on Board" page from the website suggests that a birth certificate is required, however, it explicitly says that its to "validate the age"... AND then is a link on the left called "Age Verification"..... go ahead, check it out. You know what that MORE DETAILED page says?

"If you are traveling on a ticketed Infant Fare, Child Fare, or Senior Fare, you must present the traveler's proof of age (i.e., birth certificate, driver's license, or another government-issued photo ID that indicates the ticketed traveler's date of birth) to a Customer Service Agent at the airport in order to check in for your flight."

so there it is - Apparantly, if you purchase a non-discounted ticket for an infant YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO PROVIDE ANY ID WHATSOEVER.

lets think about that. according to all the law enforcement experts here, in order to "kidnap" any infant, you merely need to purchase a ticket for said child. No need to "prove their identity" or prove you're a parent. Ever occured to you folks, that flying with a child not your own isn't illegal, either?

Again, agents are not police officers investigating a suspected crime.

Summary: domestic flight on Southwest REQUIRES NO ID for a fully ticketed child. A lap infant requires only an accepted ID to verify that they are under 2 (thus eligible for lap seating). and finally, the airlines own stated "Age verification" detail page explicitly specifies "government-issued photo ID" as accepted.

THAT'S IT.
Nowhere is it stated, implied or suggested that "proof of parenthood" is remotely required.

The agent is wrong in every way, shape and form. The Passport is all that was required, END OF STORY.

By the way, I have personally traveled with children, not my own, with zero identification (for them).... because there actually is NO REQUIREMENT (I purchased seats for them).

The racial complaint by the customer is irrelevant. The agent so far wrong, its not funny.



Spot on.

Im not gonna rehash it. Very well put.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 4:58 am

seablue125 wrote:
I do so hope that no one has an issue with this extra bit of caution that WN is using. Perhaps you may have heard of the terms "human trafficking" or "child abduction." These are very serious; and, need I add, a tragic and senseless reality of the times we live in. Child endangerment and abductions are fairly common; and though perhaps it isn't happening at your favorite airport (as far as you can recall); but could happen almost anywhere. When the safety of a child is involved, and if the airline staffer is not certain, then it behooves him/her asking further questions... or proof. Those mindful & caring parents will absolutely understand.


Stop.
I am a mindful and caring parent.

An airport ticket agent is not qualified, authorized or equipped to "sniff out" a human trafficker. They are not more responsible or better equipped than a bus driver, garbage man or veterinarian to detect one. Nothing at all in their job duties calls for them to "play cop".
Do not invoke such false ideas as "child safety" when it comes to protecting the revenue of the employer (which is specifically what the ID check is for).

If the agent, or the bus driver, garbage man or veterinarian suspect a crime, then law enforcement should be alerted. Its not like there isn't any available at the airport.

The agent miserably failed to understand their own job.
 
jubguy3
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 5:04 am

I don't have an issue with the fact that WN tried to verify the child's identity with any level of suspicion. I most definitely DO have an issue with the fact that the employee chose to disregard the passport even though it verified the child's identity, that the child's dad who shared the last name was there, and that an individual employee asked for a birth certificate over Facebook. Completely inappropriate.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 6:31 am

With human trafficking I see no problem for them to ask. We want people to be super cautious
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 7:11 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
With human trafficking I see no problem for them to ask. We want people to be super cautious


Yes, and with all the problems with alcohol, in society, agents should probably ask for breathalyzer tests, too.

Ask for what, exactly? Oh, you mean the required ID for a child on the lap? Like the valid passport that was actually produced?
Or perhaps the route the agent went with, which was to actually LIE TO THE CUSTOMER, citing a bogus federal law that does not exist ("birth certificate required").

I'd be happy to know the last time an agent foiled a child trafficker at the airport. Likely answer: never.

Agents actions are indefensible.
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3671
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 7:24 am

FlyHappy wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
With human trafficking I see no problem for them to ask. We want people to be super cautious


Yes, and with all the problems with alcohol, in society, agents should probably ask for breathalyzer tests, too.

Ask for what, exactly? Oh, you mean the required ID for a child on the lap? Like the valid passport that was actually produced?
Or perhaps the route the agent went with, which was to actually LIE TO THE CUSTOMER, citing a bogus federal law that does not exist ("birth certificate required").

I'd be happy to know the last time an agent foiled a child trafficker at the airport.


Perhaps a polygraph test and a written testimonial from the grandparents as well. We want people to be super cautious. ;)
Ain't I a stinker?
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 7:38 am

Im sorry but this is old fashioned racism and prejudice pure and simple. If a white woman or an asian woman turned up with a kid that resembled them nothing would have been asked. It's not the place of airport ground staff to be acting as agents for courts enforcing marriage agreements when no borders are being crossed. Look I know a lot of parents worry that if there kid was to bet snatched etc etc etc.... but what about the reverse effect on the kids psychology? They'll remember long after this event being singled out when they were young for being "different". What if a couple turned up with an adopted kid? A lesbian couple? an auntie who stepped up when mum and dad died in a car accident? It's not a check in agents place to make these kind of calls unless a customs requirement is in question... hardly the case on domestic travel. For those parents who's knee jerk reaction was to think about somebody kidnappying their kid... maybe consider the opposite... what if you were prevented travel with your kid by some agent "making up" some regulation and if you argue too much you'll have anti terrorism laws used against you?
 
Jomar777
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 8:33 am

beerockxs wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
catiii wrote:

Really? Both parents were present. I've flown with my wife (different last name) and my two kids for years and never once has anyone cited "federal law" to tell me that I had to show a birth certificate.

Contract of carriage requires an ID for all fliers. I've been asked to produce birth certificates with my ex (different last name). It depends on the security level.

They had a passport for the child, and were asked to provide a birth certificate in addition to that. From the article: "We had a passport that verified our son’s age and identity, and both parents were present."


Sorry but having the passport means nothing because, even if it is a legitimate passport, it does not show the parents name on it. WN was absolutely correct in checking. It is not even the bi-racial the big argument here. It is the fact that the child had a different name form her mother. Even with the father being present and sharing the surname with the child, who would not argue that the child had a different mother which might be opposed to the child travelling?

On this case, all was fine but there could well not be.

I travel with my eldest son often on a long haul to see my family. My wife only goes every other year (does not like the long haul flight...). We all share the same name. We all use the same airline and my whole family (me, wife and two kids) have full up to date profile with them. Even then, they always check through questions and, once have rang my wife at home (a random spot check they did say...). I am grateful they do this all the time because it is better safe than sorry.
 
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Lingon
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 11:11 am

FlyHappy wrote:
seablue125 wrote:
I do so hope that no one has an issue with this extra bit of caution that WN is using. Perhaps you may have heard of the terms "human trafficking" or "child abduction." These are very serious; and, need I add, a tragic and senseless reality of the times we live in. Child endangerment and abductions are fairly common; and though perhaps it isn't happening at your favorite airport (as far as you can recall); but could happen almost anywhere. When the safety of a child is involved, and if the airline staffer is not certain, then it behooves him/her asking further questions... or proof. Those mindful & caring parents will absolutely understand.


Stop.
I am a mindful and caring parent.

An airport ticket agent is not qualified, authorized or equipped to "sniff out" a human trafficker. They are not more responsible or better equipped than a bus driver, garbage man or veterinarian to detect one. Nothing at all in their job duties calls for them to "play cop".
Do not invoke such false ideas as "child safety" when it comes to protecting the revenue of the employer (which is specifically what the ID check is for).

If the agent, or the bus driver, garbage man or veterinarian suspect a crime, then law enforcement should be alerted. Its not like there isn't any available at the airport.

The agent miserably failed to understand their own job.


Yes, because this was a domestic flight. But it could be a good addition to mention that for an international flight, the country of destination might require proof of parenthood. And if a passenger is not permitted entry in the country of destination, the airline's got a problem. Thus, it would be natural if the airline's agents check such documentation - still for protecting the airline. I don't know if they do...?

However, this was a slight deviation from the topic at hand, since this flight was within the US.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9702
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 11:30 am

mikelive wrote:
I am wrapping up my career on the phone center side of things with WN on Thursday (before transitioning to an airport CSA role with WN), so here is my 2-cents:

Whenever a parent would ask me what kind of ID is required for their baby, I would tell them to bring a copy of their child's birth certificate. Nothing more; nothing less. However, there ARE some countries (Belize for example) which would require a letter from the non-traveling parent authorizing the traveling parent to take their child out of the US and into another country. I'm not sure of what other countries do this, but I had a customer yesterday denied boarding because she didn't have this letter. We rebooked her for today at no cost but it was a surprise (and a lesson learned) for me. She wasn't upset and was happy that we resolved the situation quickly for her.


Most countries have that requirement, including our neighbors to the north. The U.S. is unique in that it doesn't. I suspect it stems from the fact that most Americans under 16 don't have a government issued photo id.

TVNWZ wrote:
Yep. Airline only wants to make sure you’re not scamming a freebie with a child over two. Only reason they care about any ids. Everything else is didactic posturing.

Yes and no. Yes you're right because that is TSA's job. However the airline doesn't want to be inconvenienced should TSA deny the passenger access for lack of proper documentation. Having said that, on a domestic flight I've never seen TSA give two sh*ts about a child's identity. This becomes a bigger problem when traveling internationally where the airline wants to make sure you have all the documents required to enter a foreign country so the airline is not on the hook for bringing you back if denied entry. And for most countries that includes a letter of authorization as mentioned above. However this is off topic for this thread as this was a domestic flight but I thought I should mention it anyway.

Jomar777 wrote:
I travel with my eldest son often on a long haul to see my family. My wife only goes every other year (does not like the long haul flight...). We all share the same name. We all use the same airline and my whole family (me, wife and two kids) have full up to date profile with them. Even then, they always check through questions and, once have rang my wife at home (a random spot check they did say...). I am grateful they do this all the time because it is better safe than sorry.

Same exact experience here.
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3599
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 11:35 am

To all you people who are going on about them ‘pulling the race card’, when you’re overly sensitive to race issues because your life doesn’t happen so smoothly due to your skin hue, you get kinda weary of it.

I think the airline probably did a great job but the mother is probably used to dealing with situations that are not ideal because of her child’s mixed race.

I’m the offspring of mixed parents and life can be challenging. To this day I still get randomly selected almost every time for explosives swabs at Australian airports.
come visit the south pacific
 
ei146
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 11:39 am

Jomar777 wrote:

Sorry but having the passport means nothing because, even if it is a legitimate passport, it does not show the parents name on it. WN was absolutely correct in checking.


You don't get it, don't you? The name does not matter at all. There is no need to check if the child is travelling with the parents. It is just not the business of WN or the gate agent to care about this or if the kid travels with its parents, aunt, uncle, brother or sister, grandparents, friends of the family or any other person. If the gate agent has reasonable suspicion that the kid is there without the consent of the legal guardians he shall call police. If not stop molesting people.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7120
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 11:48 am

Agent did exactly what need to be done. This is someone looking for their fifteen minutes of fame. But twittarati will realize the truth and fame will turn into nightmare.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 11:58 am

ei146 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:

Sorry but having the passport means nothing because, even if it is a legitimate passport, it does not show the parents name on it. WN was absolutely correct in checking.


You don't get it, don't you? The name does not matter at all. There is no need to check if the child is travelling with the parents. It is just not the business of WN or the gate agent to care about this or if the kid travels with its parents, aunt, uncle, brother or sister, grandparents, friends of the family or any other person. If the gate agent has reasonable suspicion that the kid is there without the consent of the legal guardians he shall call police. If not stop molesting people.

Read the contract of carriage, a birth certificate is required as proof. I've been asked. It is normal process.

As noted, this woman wanted her fame and probably money.
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 622
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Motorhussy wrote:
I’m the offspring of mixed parents and life can be challenging. To this day I still get randomly selected almost every time for explosives swabs at Australian airports.


Sorry to hear that you're treated that way in Australia. Does it mean that this occurence in the US must have been racially motivated though?

ei146 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
If the gate agent has reasonable suspicion that the kid is there without the consent of the legal guardians he shall call police. If not stop molesting people.


Agreed, and the gate agent didn't have reasonable suspicion after the parents were able to answer some easy questions and so had no need to call the police. As for molesting people... really?
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3599
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:04 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
I’m the offspring of mixed parents and life can be challenging. To this day I still get randomly selected almost every time for explosives swabs at Australian airports.


Sorry to hear that you're treated that way in Australia. Does it mean that this occurence in the US must have been racially motivated though?

ei146 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
If the gate agent has reasonable suspicion that the kid is there without the consent of the legal guardians he shall call police. If not stop molesting people.


Agreed, and the gate agent didn't have reasonable suspicion after the parents were able to answer some easy questions and so had no need to call the police. As for molesting people... really?


I used this to illustrate challenges that some people have which shapes their outlook and sensitivities. And as I said, it looks like the airline did everything right.
come visit the south pacific
 
slider
Posts: 7424
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Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:25 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
Yep. Airline only wants to make sure you’re not scamming a freebie with a child over two. Only reason they care about any ids. Everything else is didactic posturing.


Bingo.

Lot of freeloaders that try the "lap child" thing with 3 year olds. No bueno. Plus, airlines have to verify FAA approved car seats onboard too.

Asking for ID has nothing to do with race or bias or what have you. But that doesn't stop the faux outrage industry here from chiming in, as per usual.
 
ei146
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 12:35 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Read the contract of carriage, a birth certificate is required as proof.


I did. But did you do? It is available for download from WN: https://www.southwest.com/assets/pdfs/c ... rriage.pdf

"Birth certificate" is not even mentioned there. This is said on page 8, para. 3 c. (1) (ii):

At the time of check-in, either government-issued photo identification or another identification document acceptable to Carrier bearing the birth date of the Passenger who is traveling on an Infant Fare must be presented to Carrier


So even the purpose of this check is there: to prove the age, nothing else.
Why do you quote documents that you didn't read?

My son and my stepdaughter don't have my last name. And they don't even have a birth certificate that would be useful to any WN employee if they don't understand German. And in case of my step daughter it would not help anyway. But we travelled many times, sometimes without their mother, Schengen and US domestic and across international borders. So far everybody (even WN) was happy when I produced their German passports. I usually have more documents with me, just in case. But so far nobody wanted to see them or even asked a question. Is it because we look like the typical white midlle aged family?
 
ei146
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 1:02 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
ei146 wrote:
If the gate agent has reasonable suspicion that the kid is there without the consent of the legal guardians he shall call police. If not stop molesting people.


Agreed, and the gate agent didn't have reasonable suspicion after the parents were able to answer some easy questions and so had no need to call the police. As for molesting people... really?


Yes, this is molesting people, because it is not the business of an gate agent to know my kinship. They don't need to know if this kid is my son or my nephew. So they should no ask. The same way your cab driver or waitress don't need to know. This is private information I only need to disclose to legal authorities. Leave the investigation to them.
What would you say if you were asked if this woman traveling with you is your secretary or your spouse? Or if she is your wife or your mother?
And assuming some wrong-doing because of a difference in skin colour is open and blatant racism.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 622
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 1:11 pm

ei146 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
ei146 wrote:
If the gate agent has reasonable suspicion that the kid is there without the consent of the legal guardians he shall call police. If not stop molesting people.


Agreed, and the gate agent didn't have reasonable suspicion after the parents were able to answer some easy questions and so had no need to call the police. As for molesting people... really?


What would you say if you were asked if this woman traveling with you is your secretary or your spouse? Or if she is your wife or your mother?
And assuming some wrong-doing because of a difference in skin colour is open and blatant racism.


If my secretary, spouse, wife or mother was a child then I would absolutely expect some questions.

Why are you making the assumption that these questions were asked purely because of skin colour and where is the assumption of wrongdoing? If a gate agent asks for my boarding pass before allowing me to pass, does that mean they suspect me of wrongdoing? If a potential employer asks to see my law degree does that mean they suspect me of wrongdoing?

Are we now in a position where people cannot ask questions to others because of the colour of their skin... because, if so, I think that meets the definition of racism?
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1047
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 1:30 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
Sorry but having the passport means nothing because, even if it is a legitimate passport, it does not show the parents name on it. WN was absolutely correct in checking. It is not even the bi-racial the big argument here. It is the fact that the child had a different name form her mother. Even with the father being present and sharing the surname with the child, who would not argue that the child had a different mother which might be opposed to the child travelling?


Stop. there is no requirement for WN or anyone else to ensure the women is the mother. NONE. It is not there business.
You position is basically that two people surnamed "Johnson" may abduct and fly with a child named "Johnson", yes? Or perhaps, just not bother with stealing a pesky (or non-existent passport), and just go with a beyond - too easy, photocopy of something that looks like a standard (but there's no standard, is there?) birth certificate, that says: "Baby WhateverNameIwant" .

Jomar777 wrote:
I travel with my eldest son often on a long haul to see my family. My wife only goes every other year (does not like the long haul flight...). We all share the same name. We all use the same airline and my whole family (me, wife and two kids) have full up to date profile with them. Even then, they always check through questions and, once have rang my wife at home (a random spot check they did say...). I am grateful they do this all the time because it is better safe than sorry.


Your experience is irrelevant, as you are departing the country, documentation needs are explicitly different, and history has shown that children who disappear..... on airplane flights...... do so because one parent has fled the country, and the jurisdiction of a local court, to escape the typical reach of a child custody ruling. International extradition is rare in these cases.
Thats the reason, period.

None of the facts apply to these passengers situations. None, zero, nada.
Agent was ignorant, and wildly inappropriate.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1047
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Southwest ask mother to prove Bi-racial child is her own

Thu May 31, 2018 1:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Read the contract of carriage, a birth certificate is required as proof. I've been asked. It is normal process.

As noted, this woman wanted her fame and probably money.



I am disappointed that a moderator, as you are, and have to exercise judgment with the power of censure, is so easily prone to disseminating a casual falsehood and adding to that with such a judgmental "wanted her fame and probably money" addendum.

The CoC does not require presentation of a BC, and it absolutely, positively is not a stated condition for any domestic travel.
Please don't participate in this mass ignorance.

The provided passport was 100% acceptable, and ONLY BECAUSE the child was booked as a "lap child". NO ID WOULD BE REQUIRED if the child had a full fare seat. This is factual.

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