evank516 wrote:

Probably won't even get off the ground unfortunately.

The financing will be tough, but they have some good names in it. Most failed start-ups are led by pilots or people with no airline experience.

enilria wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Probably won't even get off the ground unfortunately.

The financing will be tough, but they have some good names in it. Most failed start-ups are led by pilots or people with no airline experience.

Wasn't PeoplExpress started with former executives from its first run though?

On another web site, it was stated that Midwest was buying a current Part 121 carrier. XTRAirways maybe.??

The other part or parts that haven't been mentioned are that the original Midwest wasn't a true start up in the way this will be. Kimberly Clark started it as a division to shuttle employees around. Also, they were able to operate CHEAP DC-9's with low fuel prices. Those attributes are not present today.

Everyone is getting caught up in the name game. I don't care what they call the airline. I care about what they offer and how they are going to offer something that their competitors don't and that passengers want.

If they try and be another high density, direct routes carrier out of MKE, I don't think they are going to work. MKE makes a lousy hub location, There's only really a handful of routes that have enough people wanting to go back and forth day after day to make them work. They aren't going to offer anything that anyone else doesn't, and they are going to struggle to get passengers.

Now, if they do decide to go a premium route, then I think they stand a chance. Like above posters mentioned,a C Series at 2 across gives premium economy seating, if they go the route of serving some kind of meal (doesn't have to be fancy, just food. For free.), drinks and a free checked bag, plus lounges, then you have something fairly frequent flies would be interested in and willing to choose them for. Price it on the lower side of domestic first class service.

I know people are nostalgic for the low cost airlines. But there are already a bunch of those. And they have left a whole market untouched - the group that doesn't fly enough to be the high elites on the mainline carriers, but want more than Spirit or JetBlue gives them. The mainline are already trying to tap into this market with their E+ offerings, but are too focused on the penny pinching to build a following.

adamblang wrote:

MKENut wrote:

DL717 wrote:

This thing is screaming C-Series 2x2 config.

Imagine a Midwest Express using C-Series 100. The most comfortable cabin in the industry. We are dreaming but I would love to see that someday.

Republic buys Midwest.
Republic buys Frontier.
Frontier hubs Milwaukee.
Republic kills Midwest.
Republic orders CS100 for Frontier.
Frontier de-hubs Milwaukee.
Republic sells Frontier.
Republic has CS100 for nobody.
Midwest rises from the dead.
Midwest takes CS100 from Republic.
Midwest hubs Milwaukee.

The circle of life!

What a great summation. 8/11 steps are already complete!

Seeing more competition in the marketplace is always a good thing.

Question: Is XTRA a Part 121 carrier?

adamblang wrote:

MKENut wrote:

DL717 wrote:

This thing is screaming C-Series 2x2 config.

Imagine a Midwest Express using C-Series 100. The most comfortable cabin in the industry. We are dreaming but I would love to see that someday.

Republic buys Midwest.
Republic buys Frontier.
Frontier hubs Milwaukee.
Republic kills Midwest.
Republic orders CS100 for Frontier.
Frontier de-hubs Milwaukee.
Republic sells Frontier.
Republic has CS100 for nobody.
Midwest rises from the dead.
Midwest takes CS100 from Republic.
Midwest hubs Milwaukee.

The circle of life!

E-175s and CS-100s

evank516 wrote:

enilria wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Probably won't even get off the ground unfortunately.

The financing will be tough, but they have some good names in it. Most failed start-ups are led by pilots or people with no airline experience.

Wasn't PeoplExpress started with former executives from its first run though?

Michael Morisi
President & Chief Operating Officer
Company NamePEOPLExpress
Dates EmployedAug 2011 – Oct 2015 Employment Duration4 yrs 3 mos
LocationNewport News, Virginia
New and exciting airline start-up. Launched in 2014 and operated over 870 flights carrying 55000 passengers throughout eastern US. Full operational responsibility. Directly responsible for raising over $7M to launch airline.

Don't think he had ever worked at an airline before. Certainly not in a capacity even remotely close to an airline CEO.

enilria wrote:

evank516 wrote:

enilria wrote:

The financing will be tough, but they have some good names in it. Most failed start-ups are led by pilots or people with no airline experience.

Wasn't PeoplExpress started with former executives from its first run though?

Michael Morisi
President & Chief Operating Officer
Company NamePEOPLExpress
Dates EmployedAug 2011 – Oct 2015 Employment Duration4 yrs 3 mos
LocationNewport News, Virginia
New and exciting airline start-up. Launched in 2014 and operated over 870 flights carrying 55000 passengers throughout eastern US. Full operational responsibility. Directly responsible for raising over $7M to launch airline.

Don't think he had ever worked at an airline before. Certainly not in a capacity even remotely close to an airline CEO.

Aretakis (at Midwest) has worked as a Senior Exec at numerous airlines and started Shuttle America on his own before it was an affiliate.

Metjetceo wrote:

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the plan is calling for the use of CRJ200s (Independence Air type of operation) Though Mid. Exp did outsource some regionals and Beach 1900s, not sure that nostalgia includes CRJ200s. In addition, not sure how you compete with WN 737s and F9 A320s in quality and more importantly where do you earn revenue on a 50 seater when they drop the fares on all competing lanes with the capacity and power to outlast a price war. If you assume they operate their a/c 14 hours a day and do not spend any money during startup I calculate a 23 day-35 day cash flow...depending on assumed sales. How powerful of a marketing tool is a chocolate chip cookie?

Secondly, what 121s are for sale? Island Air is going to hawaiian, Swift is for sale, but I think its got bids higher than the capital they are raising, Califorina Pacific just bought one in Georgia and I am not sure about Great Lakes.

A lot of what is driving this business plan is the extremely low market value of CRJ-200s and E145s. I agree the question will be where to fly them. I'm guessing it will be along the lines of OneJet. I have doubt it would all be focused on MKE in a hub style operation. They will probably seek to add MKE to markets like MCI and if they succeed at all DL will throw their code on it!

The price of oil is once again fluctuating quite a bit. Independence Air tried to start up an airline using RJ's. Does anyone remember what happened there? Skybus attempted to run an airline using Airbus aircraft in a city that is comparable to MKE and was at one time a hub for America West. Again, another pipe dream that failed. I don't see how these guys are going to make an airline work using CRJ's or ERJ's. The margins are so thin.

airtran737 wrote:

The price of oil is once again fluctuating quite a bit. Independence Air tried to start up an airline using RJ's. Does anyone remember what happened there? Skybus attempted to run an airline using Airbus aircraft in a city that is comparable to MKE and was at one time a hub for America West. Again, another pipe dream that failed. I don't see how these guys are going to make an airline work using CRJ's or ERJ's. The margins are so thin.

They have a chance because:

1) it will be business class seating at business class prices.

2) The original Midwest Airlines started with just such a concept - and built a small route system based out of Milwaukee for business people traveling to to cities less than half a continent away. I personally feel if they had stuck with that - instead of trying to expand into general passenger service and larger aircraft - that the original Midwest Airlines would still exist today

Because their are so many business people in the Milwaukee area who used and remember item 2 - they are willing to do so again. That is the unique thing about Milwaukee and Midwest Airlines that likely never existed anywhere else.

It will be a premium priced service in wide seats. It will have limited routes. I'm looking forward to it returning - and could see myself using it again. I would not think twice about booking flights on them if they were going where I need to go.

Have a great day,

https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/mi ... as-we-can-

Anybody wanna speculate on possible fleet?

In all reality, what type of plane does anyone think they will use. Please no jokes about A380 or 747-8i. 737's?? A319/320??

sunking737 wrote:

In all reality, what type of plane does anyone think they will use. Please no jokes about A380 or 747-8i. 737's?? A319/320??

CRJ's or ERJ's

Sounds like some airline type folks were sitting around eating their memberberries and came up with a dandy idea.

ridgid727 wrote:

sunking737 wrote:

In all reality, what type of plane does anyone think they will use. Please no jokes about A380 or 747-8i. 737's?? A319/320??

CRJ's or ERJ's

Used Q400s could make a lot of sense too. This can succeed if it’s somewhat modelled after Porter and the old MidEx.

Bring back the B717 too!!! Wishful thinking

Dominion301 wrote:

ridgid727 wrote:

sunking737 wrote:

In all reality, what type of plane does anyone think they will use. Please no jokes about A380 or 747-8i. 737's?? A319/320??

CRJ's or ERJ's

Used Q400s could make a lot of sense too. This can succeed if it’s somewhat modelled after Porter and the old MidEx.

I don't think a 74 pax plane is worth it. Min pax should be at lest 140 or so.

sunking737 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

ridgid727 wrote:

CRJ's or ERJ's

Used Q400s could make a lot of sense too. This can succeed if it’s somewhat modelled after Porter and the old MidEx.

I don't think a 74 pax plane is worth it. Min pax should be at lest 140 or so.

I disagree... as one who used the former midwest and would use it again. I think 74 classic seats is not to large. My guess is not quite 50 business seats will be more than enough. 30 + may work too.

The target here is just business passengers, and possibly their families. General public will not be counted (no objection if some are willing to pay the premium price).

Have a great day,

sunking737 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

ridgid727 wrote:

CRJ's or ERJ's

Used Q400s could make a lot of sense too. This can succeed if it’s somewhat modelled after Porter and the old MidEx.

I don't think a 74 pax plane is worth it. Min pax should be at lest 140 or so.

It all depends upon what kind of markets they want to target. If they want to largely avoid the big boys and gals, Q400s to places like IND, DAY, OMA, etc. are all much more ideally suited to the Q400.

Dominion301 wrote:

sunking737 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Used Q400s could make a lot of sense too. This can succeed if it’s somewhat modelled after Porter and the old MidEx.

I don't think a 74 pax plane is worth it. Min pax should be at lest 140 or so.

It all depends upon what kind of markets they want to target. If they want to largely avoid the big boys and gals, Q400s to places like IND, DAY, OMA, etc. are all much more ideally suited to the Q400.

I agree. Q400 in all business class seating on 32 or 34" seat pitch. 45 to 51 passengers (give or take depending on Lav's galley (cookies?), etc.

I see at least 2 or three times the number of cities you mention as realistic possibilities.

I'm hoping this makes it... I would love to do short hops like this again direct from Milwaukee without many of the modern hassles of general consumer airlines.

Have a great day,

Not sure if a prop would make a suitable all business class aircraft for an airline. You also have to consider that the galley in a Q400 would not be large enough to hold catering for business class meals, snacks, etc.

However, if they do not plan on operating like the original Midwest Express and instead just operate shuttle type flights with coach seating, then the Q400 might work. I would be surprised however if they do not go for jets.

If it's marketed as all business class, then it needs to be 3 abreast if on a Q or CRJ. and it basically eliminates the ERJ. Business class needs elbow room to use a laptop.
As for serving hot meals, a well done cold pate (such as a salad Nicoise) would be fine on regional flights.

Midwest, as most people remember it, saw its darkest days after 9/11 and never really recovered.

"Saver" was introduced and even the "Signature" meals were replaced by buy-on-board. Before Republic came along, there had been shenanigans with the stock price and the fleet - with Northwest and TPG - which is why Republic came along.

So - which Midwest did they have in mind?

mariner

Probably the original main MKE to XXX business routes without the over the top service. Knope has it pretty well nailed up- thread

TVNWZ wrote:

Probably the original main MKE to XXX business routes without the over the top service. Knope has it pretty well nailed up- thread

I know Knope's work well - and respect him enormously - and he puts his finger on what Midwest faces. The airline world has changed considerably since the glory years, and the last few years of Midwest's existence were painful.

What Knope indicates - and what the new "owners" (would-be anyway) - have to address, is the size of the market which will pay for the goodies, and which isn't large, at least from MKE. Knope advances Slyway as a model, and I agree, but even then that's stretching it.

mariner

sunking737 wrote:

On another web site, it was stated that Midwest was buying a current Part 121 carrier. XTRAirways maybe.??

Do you have a source on that?

I actually know someone close to this. From what I have heard, they are trying to purchase an existing carrier. I don't know what but I have heard something about Xtra.

http://xtraairways.com/press-releases/aerlineholdings

Xtra is being sold as of late March, but...

https://www.saipantribune.com/index.php ... a-airways/

Per the article, they have a $50 million lawsuit pending against them. Not great for their prospective buyer(s), if they have any left.

Dominion301 wrote:

It all depends upon what kind of markets they want to target. If they want to largely avoid the big boys and gals, Q400s to places like IND, DAY, OMA, etc. are all much more ideally suited to the Q400.

I wonder if the IND jet bridges can dock with a Q400. I don't believe the terminal provides tarmac access for passengers like the old terminal did. Not sure I've ever seen a prop at a gate since the new terminal opened years ago.

cloudboy wrote:

Everyone is getting caught up in the name game. I don't care what they call the airline. I care about what they offer and how they are going to offer something that their competitors don't and that passengers want.

If they try and be another high density, direct routes carrier out of MKE, I don't think they are going to work. MKE makes a lousy hub location, There's only really a handful of routes that have enough people wanting to go back and forth day after day to make them work. They aren't going to offer anything that anyone else doesn't, and they are going to struggle to get passengers.

Now, if they do decide to go a premium route, then I think they stand a chance. Like above posters mentioned,a C Series at 2 across gives premium economy seating, if they go the route of serving some kind of meal (doesn't have to be fancy, just food. For free.), drinks and a free checked bag, plus lounges, then you have something fairly frequent flies would be interested in and willing to choose them for. Price it on the lower side of domestic first class service.

I know people are nostalgic for the low cost airlines. But there are already a bunch of those. And they have left a whole market untouched - the group that doesn't fly enough to be the high elites on the mainline carriers, but want more than Spirit or JetBlue gives them. The mainline are already trying to tap into this market with their E+ offerings, but are too focused on the penny pinching to build a following.

All great points. YX 2.0 will need to differentiate itself from the other network carriers to have a fighting chance. MKE is located within a regional triangle of extensive network coverage from carrier hubs that offers great schedules and connectivity.
Like Island Air in the Hawaiian inter-island market. their attempt to go from a commuter carrier with a proprietary network to battling HA head on sealed it’s fate. By offering something unique, the network carriers may seek to work with a new Midwest rather than drive them out much like the recent codeshare announcement by UA and Boutique.

While MKE was the historical hub of YX I wonder if MDW wouldn’t be a better place to jumpstart the comeback? No offense to MKE but it doesn’t strike me as a large enough business market to sustain an all premium carrier especially in the post-merger network carrier era. The Chicago area has a much larger corporate presence. Setting up at MDW would allow YX2.0 to tap into the Chicago business market without fierce backlash from UA and AA at ORD. WN is dominate at MDW but targets a completely different market segment.

77H

MKE22 wrote:

http://xtraairways.com/press-releases/aerlineholdings

Xtra is being sold as of late March, but...

https://www.saipantribune.com/index.php ... a-airways/

Per the article, they have a $50 million lawsuit pending against them. Not great for their prospective buyer(s), if they have any left.

They'd better hurry. It looks like Xtra flew their last flight last week. The certificate won't be good indefinitely with no operations.

MIdwest Express was a fine airline in its day. So was Pan American, Braniff, etc.

But just painting that name on the side of an airplane will not bring back the glory days, nor the passenger carried.

mariner wrote:

Midwest, as most people remember it, saw its darkest days after 9/11 and never really recovered.

"Saver" was introduced and even the "Signature" meals were replaced by buy-on-board. Before Republic came along, there had been shenanigans with the stock price and the fleet - with Northwest and TPG - which is why Republic came along.

So - which Midwest did they have in mind?

mariner

Exactly.

The pre-9/11 model of all business class selling at full fare Y fares worked when that passenger existed, but .... after 9/11, that passenger all but disappeared. If that is the idea being floated, then it will be as successful as all of the other premium, all F airlines we have seen since deregulation. Namely ... not.

Indy wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

It all depends upon what kind of markets they want to target. If they want to largely avoid the big boys and gals, Q400s to places like IND, DAY, OMA, etc. are all much more ideally suited to the Q400.

I wonder if the IND jet bridges can dock with a Q400. I don't believe the terminal provides tarmac access for passengers like the old terminal did. Not sure I've ever seen a prop at a gate since the new terminal opened years ago.

Probably at least some of them would be Q400 compatible. Probably all depends on who manufactured IND’S bridges.

mariner wrote:

TVNWZ wrote:

Probably the original main MKE to XXX business routes without the over the top service. Knope has it pretty well nailed up- thread

I know Knope's work well - and respect him enormously - and he puts his finger on what Midwest faces. The airline world has changed considerably since the glory years, and the last few years of Midwest's existence were painful.

What Knope indicates - and what the new "owners" (would-be anyway) - have to address, is the size of the market which will pay for the goodies, and which isn't large, at least from MKE. Knope advances Slyway as a model, and I agree, but even then that's stretching it.

mariner

That’s kinda what I was alluding to with a Q400 type operation. Skyway-ish (i.e., great service without all the legacy perks of yesteryear) and Porter-ish (i.e, regional business-oriented carrier, where you pay to check a bag, yet get free snacks and beer/wine onboard with a by 2018 standards, very generous 32-33 inch seat pitch. Heck the Q can even have an F cabin.

You could then expand your reach with the CS1/3.

Dominion301 wrote:

Probably at least some of them would be Q400 compatible. Probably all depends on who manufactured IND’S bridges.

They were manufactured by ThyssenKrupp.

77H wrote:

While MKE was the historical hub of YX I wonder if MDW wouldn’t be a better place to jumpstart the comeback? No offense to MKE but it doesn’t strike me as a large enough business market to sustain an all premium carrier especially in the post-merger network carrier era. The Chicago area has a much larger corporate presence. Setting up at MDW would allow YX2.0 to tap into the Chicago business market without fierce backlash from UA and AA at ORD. WN is dominate at MDW but targets a completely different market segment.

77H

I don't think hubbing at MDW would be a good idea. WN would eat them for lunch. I wouldn't say that WN targets a completely different market segment, I would say that WN targets every segment. Lots of AA, DL, UA, frequent flyers will also fly WN if the schedule is right, even though WN does not offer first class (based on what I've read on the other forum). I think WN would defend their monopoly at MDW to the death.

airtran737 wrote:

[photoid][/photoid]

OB1504 wrote:

airtran737 wrote:

I hope it comes back and fails miserably just to spite the people of Milwaukee. Their public protest to AirTran buying YX and the “save the cookie” campaign was embarrassing. DL and WN own MKE now and will ensure that they flood any market that the new YX tries to take from them.

I don’t think this is going to be a successful venture but this has to be the pettiest reason I have ever seen someone wish failure on an airline for.

Call it what you want. WN could have still acquired FL, and all of those YX employees would be making Southwest money now. But nope. Their precious re-heated cookies were so important to preserve that they allowed Reverend Bedford to come in and blow sunshine up their behinds. It didn’t work out for the YX employees very well now did it?

I'd certainly agree that no one, especially the traveling public, benefitted from Midwest declining AirTran's offer. AirTran would still be here and we'd have an actual low cost competitor with a decent product. But like you say, cookies above all else.

I just picture half of you at the doctor's office:

-So I have your test results.
-How long do I have to live?
-Umm, it's a pimple...

I hope they take off. I'd love to give these cookies a try!

Indy wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Probably at least some of them would be Q400 compatible. Probably all depends on who manufactured IND’S bridges.

They were manufactured by ThyssenKrupp.

In other words they’re Q400 compatible. They just need the special ramp to clear the airstairs.

daus wrote:

Given that Southwest is dominating the market... its very appropriate to the subject. Given that domination, there is a lot of Southwest fatigue in town for business travelers. Direct flights, but packed to the gills.

JBo wrote:

Also, Southwest is relevant to this discussion because WN could easily ramp up flights to prospective New Midwest destinations to squeeze them out.

airtran737 wrote:

DL and WN own MKE now and will ensure that they flood any market that the new YX tries to take from them.

Update: There is an article titled "Southwest wants to be 'Milwaukee's hometown airline' as Midwest Express revival looms" that was published on the Milwaukee Business Journal's website today (which can be found at https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2018/06/12/southwest-wants-to-be-milwaukees-hometown-airline.html), but this article is behind a paywall.

jplatts wrote:

There is enough demand for either Midwest Express or Spirit to serve DFW nonstop from MKE since WN has discontinued MKE-DAL nonstop service and since F9 has discontinued MKE-DFW nonstop service.

If there was enough demand, the flights wouldnt have been discontinued. This isn't going to work, cookies or not.

LovePrunesAnet wrote:

jplatts wrote:

There is enough demand for either Midwest Express or Spirit to serve DFW nonstop from MKE since WN has discontinued MKE-DAL nonstop service and since F9 has discontinued MKE-DFW nonstop service.

If there was enough demand, the flights wouldnt have been discontinued. This isn't going to work, cookies or not.

Actually there is enough demand... with a 30 - 50 seat aircraft, instead of a 100 seat aircraft... Especially, as this will be premium priced fares.

Just because Southwest cannot fill multiple daily flights using 737's does not mean there is not enough demand for a smaller aircraft.

Have a great day,

2175301 wrote:

LovePrunesAnet wrote:

jplatts wrote:

There is enough demand for either Midwest Express or Spirit to serve DFW nonstop from MKE since WN has discontinued MKE-DAL nonstop service and since F9 has discontinued MKE-DFW nonstop service.

If there was enough demand, the flights wouldnt have been discontinued. This isn't going to work, cookies or not.

Actually there is enough demand... with a 30 - 50 seat aircraft, instead of a 100 seat aircraft... Especially, as this will be premium priced fares.

Just because Southwest cannot fill multiple daily flights using 737's does not mean there is not enough demand for a smaller aircraft.

Have a great day,

Also, just because WN shifted MKE-DAL to MKE-HOU for better connectivity and having limited growth opportunity at DAL doesn't mean another airline couldn't make it work. Same thing for F9, they create a bunch of pop-up focus cities and pile on demand, planes have to come from somewhere. Could definitely have been a factor IMO.

Keep in mind also that WN is basically maxed out at DAL, so if they want to add, they have to take away something else. In this case, that something else was MKE.

If someone had space at DFW, they might be able to make it work.

That said, I’m skeptical about the viability of this plan.

Midwest Express was an incredible airline.

At the beginning.

It was much more than 2 x 2 seating and cookies on board. Catering was a cut above, and the cookies were an added bonus.

2 x 2 seating only mean something if you are not on a regional jet ( so if the airline makes a return and flies EMB’s...)

Will they be owned by Frontier? Will they fly to Miami instead of FortLauderdale?