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727LOVER
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Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Wed May 30, 2018 11:26 pm

Normal landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4sBwRSD0B4

What is going on?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af_0S1MphfM

OOF...imagine if this had been LGA
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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September11
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 12:08 am

Perfect weather for it....
Airliners.net of the Future
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 12:09 am

There’s nothing wrong with this landing.

Long, dry runway, touchdown past the touchdown zone.

Nothing to see here.
 
Max Q
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 12:20 am

Never thought I’d say anything positive about Korean Air but that’s the best MD11
landing I’ve seen


Whereas that United DC10 approach and landing was abysmal



Appeared to be fast and flared far too high
resulting in a firm touchdown probably half
way down the runway and significantly past the touch down zone


They should have gone around rather than try to salvage that, long runway or not
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
N757ST
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 12:30 am

A long landing that resulted in no issue that occured probably 25 years ago. Cool thread.
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 12:31 am

I don’t think it was “abysmal”.

None of us were in the cockpit. We shouldn’t judge too harshly.

There’s no corresponding ASAP or NTSB report, so, nothing to see here.

With regard to the KAL landing and the reputation of the MD11, it was *probably* an autoland; conjecture, but likely.
Last edited by RetiredNWA on Thu May 31, 2018 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
trent772
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 1:14 am

A high flare resulting in a (very) long landing, maybe a few extra knots on short final? in the FDA world we now fly in, this would have probably resulted in a call from the chief pilot.
I’m sure those guys saw the the end of the runway coming at them fast, not a comfortable situation.
 
trent772
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 1:20 am

flight152 wrote:
RetiredNWA wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with this landing.

Long, dry runway, touchdown past the touchdown zone.

Nothing to see here.

There IS something wrong with this landing. There’s a reason why SOP for practically every airline in existence to land in the touchdown zone or go around. It’s easy to lose track of not only how much runway is left, but it also creates a slow erosion of policy and procedure that eventually turnes into an an accident.


I’m guessing this video was shot in the late 70’s to early 80’s, were SOP’s really enforcred back then or did they even exist? If I’m not mistaken UA’s fuel policy was first introduced in 1978, it may seem like a long time ago but it really isn’t, or at least I see it that way.
 
afcjets
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 1:44 am

trent772 wrote:

I’m guessing this video was shot in the late 70’s to early 80’s, were SOP’s really enforcred back then or did they even exist? If I’m not mistaken UA’s fuel policy was first introduced in 1978, it may seem like a long time ago but it really isn’t, or at least I see it that way.


I don't think so, first of all the video quality would seem too HQ for that time for an amateur, but I will say I have never seen a more polished UA DC-10 before, it looks brand new. Also, the AA Luxury Liner in the background appears to be a MD-11 instead of DC-10 because I think I see winglets. The jet right after it looks like it might be a 757 and towards the end of the landing there appears to be a Super 80. If that is an AA MD-11 and since UA started the battleship gray in 1992 (it probably took years to complete but the other UA jets in this video are in the same horizon logo) this would have to be the early 1990s.
Last edited by afcjets on Thu May 31, 2018 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
afcjets
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 1:48 am

One YouTuber commented:
"he's just floating to the end of the runway closer to the gate.......if he wanted to go around he would have done it. Pilots do this all the time in good conditions..........saves taxi time................."

If I had a YouTube account, I would respond and tell him that UA's terminals are the closest ones to the beginning of that runway not the end.
 
e38
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 1:58 am

Quoting RetiredNWA (Reply #2), "There’s nothing wrong with this landing."

Ummm, yeah, there was something wrong with this landing--judgment and compliance.

RetiredNWA, I was super surprised to note you make a comment like this. I hope that what the intent of your comment was, and for other posters who think this was normal, that while the landing itself was probably satisfactory in terms of runway remaining--obviously it was--the judgment of the crew, in particular the PIC, was very poor (translated=inappropriate) to allow the approach to continue to a landing. Many pilots may have done this in a Cessna 172 (or similar aircraft) on a long runway, but in general, crews flying transport category aircraft, especially in air carrier operations, should plan the approach so as to land in the touchdown zone, and if this cannot be accomplished, a go-around is required.

I have no idea what United's standardized operating procedures might have been relative to this approach and landing, but, when you stated there was nothing wrong with the landing, I hope you will agree that under the provisions of SOPA/SMAC, a go-around following this approach would have been both appropriate and expected.

e38
 
trent772
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 2:21 am

afcjets wrote:
trent772 wrote:

I’m guessing this video was shot in the late 70’s to early 80’s, were SOP’s really enforcred back then or did they even exist? If I’m not mistaken UA’s fuel policy was first introduced in 1978, it may seem like a long time ago but it really isn’t, or at least I see it that way.


I don't think so, first of all the video quality would seem too HQ for that time for an amateur, but I will say I have never seen a more polished UA DC-10 before, it looks brand new. Also, the AA Luxury Liner in the background appears to be a MD-11 instead of DC-10 because I think I see winglets. The jet right after it looks like it might be a 757 and towards the end of the landing there appears to be a Super 80. If that is an AA MD-11 and since UA started the battleship gray in 1992 (it probably took years to complete but the other UA jets in this video are in the same horizon logo) this would have to be the early 1990s.



You’re definitely right, I can see the battleship gray at the beginning around 15 seconds in, kinda looks like a 763, when were those delivered to UA? Anyhow, I was way off on my estimated date of the video.
It’s amazing to see how deserted LAX looked some 25 years ago, imagine how it must have looked like around the late 70’s to early 80’s as I guessed.
 
TW870
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 2:32 am

People watch vintage landing videos on Youtube all the time. What is wrong with starting a thread about something interesting that the OP found on Youtube? If you aren't interested, make like that DC-10 pilot should have and go around!

As far as the date goes, this is most likely the late-1980s or early-1990s. There is a Canadian Airlines airplane in the blue and gray livery in the background which came in in 1987. United didn't take any DC-10-30s new, and the used frames stared coming in the mid-1980s. Command, Leadership, and Resource Managemen (CLR) had come in by this time, and was certainly in place by the time UA232 crashed in Sioux City, which was likely around the time this video was taken. It was probably just windy and things happened quickly and this is the decision the captain made with a lot of runway left.
 
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Veigar
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 2:38 am

It says the date of the recording in a comment the uploader posted. He says either 1989 or 1990.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 2:55 am

It just looks like a loooong landing to me. Nothing horrible or dangerous. Pilot might have flared to early or sat in ground effect more than expected, and then adjusted and knew there was plenty of runway and decided it was safe to continue with the landing. A "textbook landing" no, but fine enough (you know the definition of a good landing) to not worry about.

And as to the comment "what if this had been LGA..." then it would have been a go round and there is no reason to think the pilot wouldn't have.

(And damn! I can't believe that was LAX just 30 years ago!)

Tugg
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peterinlisbon
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 2:56 am

The pilot has probably retired by now. It doesn't look like a particularly hard landing to me, just that they floated a bit and used a bit of extra runway. Anyway, you can't see in the video how much runway was left and we don't know how much weight was on the plane (maybe it was very lightly loaded) so we can't say whether they should have gone around.
 
747-600X
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 3:28 am

We have no idea from the video where the runway starts. That said, I don't see why we all have to take such extreme sides. Yes, it looked a bit long. On a clear day with a dry runway, that's fine. Without objective evidence regarding where the runway started and so forth, it's impossible to say anything other than, very generally, that they floated a bit. My guess is that the perspective is misleading and they landed with plenty of runway remaining.
 
tallis
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 4:24 am

Tugger wrote:
It just looks like a loooong landing to me. Nothing horrible or dangerous. Pilot might have flared to early or sat in ground effect more than expected


+1 on ground effect, although to me it looks like it should have resulted in a go around it’s impossible to judge properly unless you’re sitting there.
 
739er
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 4:24 am

Really?...
We could fill this forum with crappy landings posted on the internet of every airline that’s been around more that a few years...Oh well
 
cschleic
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 4:47 am

Yes, we do know where the runway starts, based on the hotels in the background. Both videos were taken from near the same area. It's clearly 25L or maybe 25R, although 25L is more common for landings. It looks like the cameras were slightly west of the threshold. 25L is nearly 11,100 ft. long, unless it was shorter at the time...I don't recall. Determining where the UA plane touched down is harder. But if it landed halfway...5,500 ft. doesn't seem like a lot for a DC-10, especially if you're floating.
 
UA444
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 5:45 am

There looks to be a UA 744 next to the hangars, which would make this 1989 or newer. Most of the small title planes were gone by 1992.
 
UA444
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 5:48 am

afcjets wrote:
trent772 wrote:

I’m guessing this video was shot in the late 70’s to early 80’s, were SOP’s really enforcred back then or did they even exist? If I’m not mistaken UA’s fuel policy was first introduced in 1978, it may seem like a long time ago but it really isn’t, or at least I see it that way.


I don't think so, first of all the video quality would seem too HQ for that time for an amateur, but I will say I have never seen a more polished UA DC-10 before, it looks brand new. Also, the AA Luxury Liner in the background appears to be a MD-11 instead of DC-10 because I think I see winglets. The jet right after it looks like it might be a 757 and towards the end of the landing there appears to be a Super 80. If that is an AA MD-11 and since UA started the battleship gray in 1992 (it probably took years to complete but the other UA jets in this video are in the same horizon logo) this would have to be the early 1990s.

Battleship livery came in January 1993 and you can tell that is an AA DC-10 and not an MD-11 by the fact the tail is bare metal and unpainted where as the MD’s had them painted flat grey.
 
Lostmoon744
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 6:06 am

Looks normal to me: #runwaythreshold
 
strfyr51
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu May 31, 2018 6:13 am

trent772 wrote:
flight152 wrote:
RetiredNWA wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with this landing.

Long, dry runway, touchdown past the touchdown zone.

Nothing to see here.

There IS something wrong with this landing. There’s a reason why SOP for practically every airline in existence to land in the touchdown zone or go around. It’s easy to lose track of not only how much runway is left, but it also creates a slow erosion of policy and procedure that eventually turnes into an an accident.


I’m guessing this video was shot in the late 70’s to early 80’s, were SOP’s really enforcred back then or did they even exist? If I’m not mistaken UA’s fuel policy was first introduced in 1978, it may seem like a long time ago but it really isn’t, or at least I see it that way.

United didn't have any DC10-30's until 1985 when they got the SEA-HKG Route.. Which was prior to the purchase of the Pan Am Pacific division by yhrn CEO
Rich Ferris
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:56 pm

That video was basically taken at the base of the 25s. If you look at the hotels at point 0:17 in the second video (1:12 in the first video) you can see the shape of the LA Airport Marriott which (on its long axis) runs north/south. The Marriott is maybe 200 feet west of the baseline of the 25s.
 
Max Q
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:39 am

I don’t know about UA’s policy in that era
but at my airline if you didn’t land before the end of the touch down zone a go around was mandatory






Now you might get away with it on a long dry runway like on this video but thus was an extreme and getting away with it is not
what you expect from a professional airline pilot



And this touchdown wasn’t just slightly long / outside the zone it was literally halfway down the runway



If they had overrun the end I guarantee you
they would have wished they had gone around
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
SPREE34
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:52 am

[quote="Max Q"]......
And this touchdown wasn’t just slightly long / outside the zone it was literally halfway down the runway....
/quote]

And you were able to accurately determine that (half way down) how?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:23 am

Could the runway have had a temporary displaced thresh hold? I’ve seen them before when runways are being worked on.

Unless someone has prof that these pilots were intentionally negligent dredging up and rehashing a 30 year old landing is crazy. The landing looked fine and I’m on the side that there was a reason to land long.
 
727LOVER
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:30 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
Unless someone has prof that these pilots were intentionally negligent dredging up and rehashing a 30 year old landing is crazy. .


It's a discussion forum. If you don't like the topic.....then don't join in. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I saw the video and I had a question.

Got it?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:36 am

727LOVER wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Unless someone has prof that these pilots were intentionally negligent dredging up and rehashing a 30 year old landing is crazy. .


It's a discussion forum. If you don't like the topic.....then don't join in. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I saw the video and I had a question.

Got it?


Wow......sorry my point of view doesn’t matter to you. Continue bashing United and this crew with no facts to back up SOP violations and safety issues.

I didn’t even quote you not sure why you took offense.
 
barney captain
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:08 am

cschleic wrote:
Yes, we do know where the runway starts, based on the hotels in the background. Both videos were taken from near the same area. It's clearly 25L or maybe 25R, although 25L is more common for landings. It looks like the cameras were slightly west of the threshold. 25L is nearly 11,100 ft. long, unless it was shorter at the time...I don't recall. Determining where the UA plane touched down is harder. But if it landed halfway...5,500 ft. doesn't seem like a lot for a DC-10, especially if you're floating.


No “we” don’t know where the runway starts. Displaced thresholds for construction happen regularly, and there is no way to determine whether or not that was the case in this video.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Virtual737
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:48 am

barney captain wrote:
cschleic wrote:
Yes, we do know where the runway starts, based on the hotels in the background. Both videos were taken from near the same area. It's clearly 25L or maybe 25R, although 25L is more common for landings. It looks like the cameras were slightly west of the threshold. 25L is nearly 11,100 ft. long, unless it was shorter at the time...I don't recall. Determining where the UA plane touched down is harder. But if it landed halfway...5,500 ft. doesn't seem like a lot for a DC-10, especially if you're floating.


No “we” don’t know where the runway starts. Displaced thresholds for construction happen regularly, and there is no way to determine whether or not that was the case in this video.


But what we can see is that there was a very long float., so if the touchdown was within the zone then the approach must have been way too low. Back of fag packet maths shows the United bird touching down more than 3000ft further down the runway than the Korean.
 
michi
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:36 am

trent772 wrote:
.... in the FDA world we now fly in, this would have probably resulted in a call from the chief pilot.
....


A call from the chief pilot? This would be a company with a questionable safety management. A call from the safety pilot would be more appropriate.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:52 pm

Not criticizing, because there is no need too.

FYI:

Standard policy at any airline over my flying career (15 years) is touch down in touch down zone or Go Around. Period.

That is common sense to keep a safe landing distance in front of you.

Runway pavement behind you is useless.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:08 pm

727LOVER wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Unless someone has prof that these pilots were intentionally negligent dredging up and rehashing a 30 year old landing is crazy. .


It's a discussion forum. If you don't like the topic.....then don't join in. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I saw the video and I had a question.

Got it?


Actually it was the drama used by you describing it as "Bizarre" which triggered the comment. Simply stating that it appeared to be a long landing would have saved you from commentary. :)
 
Max Q
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:42 am

That description was not applied by the poster

‘Bizarre approach ’ is how that video is titled on y tube
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:51 am

Touchdown was 17 seconds after the aircraft was parallel to camera. So take a standard landing speed for a DC-10, multiply by 17 seconds to yield distance covered. Then decide if you believe the landing was beyond the landing zone.

I'll assume 125 knots landing speed which is 143.85 MPH. Thats 759,500 feet per hour or 211 feet per second. At 17 seconds to touch down, he was about 3,585 feet beyond the runway threshold.

My rough numbers.
 
Max Q
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:48 am

You might want to go back and recalculate that


3585 feet from the threshold would be a slightly long landing


Unless you mean 3585 feet from the end of the touchdown zone which does make sense


Disagree on the approach speed as well, that’s going to be over 140 knots


The DC10 is no 757 !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:09 pm

What matters is not how much runway was wasted, but how much runway was left when he touched down. If the runway was long enough it doesn't really matter. In fact, sometimes there is an advantage to touching down late because you want to get off at a certain taxiway.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Bizarre landing by this UA DC-10

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:40 pm

Lest we forget, one of the design criteria for the DC10 was to be able to land loaded at LGA. I can't recall if the spec was for wet or dry, but I'd guess wet to cover most situations. So they only needed about half of that runway on a bad day. Again, we weren't there. Was there a gust of wind at/near flair? So many reasons for a long landing that don't compromise safety.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?

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