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Unclekoru
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:00 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:38 pm

Deepinsider wrote:

The performance capabilities of every flight, every day, at every airport are well controlled
by the 'Airplane Flight Manual' rules, which are mostly automated these days, to take account
of all possible variables at each ICAO approved airport. Airbus would only have to dial in NZWN
parameters to get all the answers.

Wellington City authorities are well known to want long haul flights.
Airbus are well known to want NZ to buy A350's

!


If by automated you mean a performance programme where the crew input the required variables and an answer is provided rather than using charts, then yes.

tealnz wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
a7ala wrote:
On other news today, Airbus bring the A350-900 to WLG for wet-runway testing next week.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/104 ... s-aircraft


Oooooooo. Very neat. Here's hoping they discover they can make it to SIN. Very unlikely, but I can hope. :p

Fascinating. That's a big unanswered question. We had a thread last year https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1351457 that tried to get some answers. The analysis in the Astral report (the basis for the runway extension proposal) http://www.connectwellington.co.nz/stat ... rt%201.pdf claimed that the 359 had a big issue with landing distance at Wellington on the existing runway.
The discussion quickly veered off course :roll: But there was a post from Zeke, drawing on the Airbus performance database, arguing that the 359 could land at MLW (the Astral report suggested landing distance was the big issue for the 359) and could carry full pax as far as Beijing. No-one challenged him on it but no-one seemed to have any answers on Astra's claim about landing performance problems for the 359.
The other curiosity in all of this is that SQ now has heaps of experience operating a 77E out of Wellington. Outbound it has obviously been operating only at weights needed for the short hop to Canberra. But we have never seen a good answer on why the 77E can comfortably land at Wellington while a 359 (according to the Astra report) cannot.


My guess would be some additional testing to validate a flight manual change or supplement for this specific model? Possibly hoping to better what was achieved during the initial flight test programme, possibly with some brake or system mods?? There has been plenty of industry talk that SQ will be replacing the 772 with the A350 later this year. True or not I don't know.
It sounds like english, but I can't understand a word you're saying
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1431
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:41 pm

Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Regarding my post yesterday in the May thread re new routes.

I was wondering if anyone had heard anything? What I'm told is it's either being seriously looked at or could be announced.

To answer the questions... all I can really say is it's ex AKL with a foreign carrier to a long haul destination.

I'm reluctant to say more as it's pretty confidential where this came from.

Ooooh...... could EK DXB-AKL-LAX be a possibility?

Does the bilateral with the UAE allow for a AKL-LAX flight? I suppose technically it’s no different to have a LAX stopover en route to DXB than a DPS stopover. The only real difference is that no one would fly AKL-DXB via LAX, so it’s a bit of a distortion of the purpose of allowing fifth freedom flights within a bilateral. Would issues of government approval then come into play, perhaps?
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4296
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:47 pm

DavidByrne wrote:
Would issues of government approval then come into play, perhaps?

AFAIK, no. Not from our end. We are not like Australia or Canada - we pretty much have open skies, where anybody who wants to fly here, can, from wherever they want. I'm not sure about the US end for EK, though.

Cheers,

C.
Last edited by planemanofnz on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3260
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:49 pm

PA515 wrote:
New A321 aircraft are due from the end of the year, improving economics on short range international flights; three new Dreamliners (with new model engines) are coming; and the airline is launching new routes to Taipei and Chicago at the end of the year.

So, the 789 due in FY2020 (CY2019) is still on, but no announcement from ALC. Could be coming from a different leasing company.


Unless they are planning to convert the leased one into an cash purchase? Maybe they are expecting some cash from RR due to the current issues that could go torwards funding it as outright purchase over an lease.
 
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Zkpilot
Posts: 4315
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:51 pm

PA515 wrote:
Grant Bradley interview with Chris Luxon in todays NZ Herald.

The impact of the engine problems will continue through the winter, although Air New Zealand is negotiating for two long haul dry lease aircraft its crew can fly to bolster its fleet.

That's the ex SQ 77E ZK-OKI and a 77W.

New A321 aircraft are due from the end of the year, improving economics on short range international flights; three new Dreamliners (with new model engines) are coming; and the airline is launching new routes to Taipei and Chicago at the end of the year.

So, the 789 due in FY2020 (CY2019) is still on, but no announcement from ALC. Could be coming from a different leasing company.

Next week Luxon is in the spotlight at the IATA meeting, a member of what is being billed as a highlight, the chief executive insight panel.

He always gives interviews at the IATA meetings, so maybe some more info next week.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=12062689

PA515

Have heard the 77W might be a CX bird.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
PA515
Posts: 1541
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:13 pm

Air NZ 77E ZK-OKD diverted to HNL twice when operating the 30 May NZ23 YVR-HNL after turbulence caused problems with the weather radar. It returns from HNL tonight. It had only just returned from SIN on 28 May after the repaint and WiFi installation.

Photo of it in HNL in this link. http://hnlrarebirds.blogspot.com/2018/0 ... rsion.html

PA515
 
zkncj
Posts: 3260
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:13 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
Have heard the 77W might be a CX bird.


Would make sense - they could use it on AKL-KHG-AKL and try use the Joint Venture to try cover it up! And the PE hard product is almost the same so that would be an massive plus.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4296
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:51 pm

zkncj wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
Have heard the 77W might be a CX bird.


Would make sense - they could use it on AKL-KHG-AKL and try use the Joint Venture to try cover it up! And the PE hard product is almost the same so that would be an massive plus.

Yes, so the 772 on AKL - SIN and the 77W on AKL - HKG, where NZ passengers regularly travel on the SQ and CX product anyway through the JV - seems like a no-brainer to me.

However, while a single 772 can do a daily AKL - SIN - AKL rotation, AFAIK, AKL - HKG - AKL (including ground time) may not allow this - so, perhaps 6x weekly on the 77W instead?

In terms of timing, a Luxon interview in the Herald this morning said that "Air New Zealand is negotiating for two longhaul dry lease aircraft" - seems like it might not be a done deal?

All up, I do think that NZ is trying its best and handling this engine debacle quite well - kudos to them for trying not to cancel that many flights, unlike others. That counts for something.

Cheers,

C.
 
DavidJ08
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:18 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:11 am

planemanofnz wrote:
Yes, so the 772 on AKL - SIN and the 77W on AKL - HKG, where NZ passengers regularly travel on the SQ and CX product anyway through the JV - seems like a no-brainer to me.

I dunno... It makes more sense in my mind to keep the leased aircraft on fixed regional routes (HNL is a good one with high aircraft utilisation - and pax are already aware of different product with Hi Fly operating it atm) and do big disclaimers (like they did with Hi Fly) about the product being different, rather than putting the leased ones on mainstream routes like SIN or HKG and try to cover it up.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4296
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:14 am

DavidJ08 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
Yes, so the 772 on AKL - SIN and the 77W on AKL - HKG, where NZ passengers regularly travel on the SQ and CX product anyway through the JV - seems like a no-brainer to me.

I dunno... It makes more sense in my mind to keep the leased aircraft on fixed regional routes (HNL is a good one with high aircraft utilisation - and pax are already aware of different product with Hi Fly operating it atm) and do big disclaimers (like they did with Hi Fly) about the product being different, rather than putting the leased ones on mainstream routes like SIN or HKG and try to cover it up.

Very valid point. I will say though, I doubt that there'll be the disappointed comments with the CX and SQ planes though, as with the Hi-Fly ones - think of those 3-3-3 Y seats, for example.

Cheers,

C.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3260
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:08 am

planemanofnz wrote:
[
In terms of timing, a Luxon interview in the Herald this morning said that "Air New Zealand is negotiating for two longhaul dry lease aircraft" - seems like it might not be a done deal?

.


Well ZK-OKI is already on the New Zealand register - so surely it is an done deal? Unless they are looking for 3 aircraft in total?
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1431
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:31 am

planemanofnz wrote:
However, while a single 772 can do a daily AKL - SIN - AKL rotation, AFAIK, AKL - HKG - AKL (including ground time) may not allow this - so, perhaps 6x weekly on the 77W instead?

In terms of timing, a Luxon interview in the Herald this morning said that "Air New Zealand is negotiating for two longhaul dry lease aircraft" - seems like it might not be a done deal?

All up, I do think that NZ is trying its best and handling this engine debacle quite well - kudos to them for trying not to cancel that many flights, unlike others. That counts for something.

Very unlikely to have a 77W operate AKL-HKG-AKL for the reason you state: it can't do a return trip in 24 hours. Because of that, either (1) it could operate 6x weekly, BUT with a departure time staggered by about an hour a day (not good for slots or for connections), or (2) it could rotate through the rest of the 77W network (not good for consistency of product on those routes).

Didn't NZ already state that the 77E would be used on AKL-HNL-AKL? Or have I just taken A-net rumour as fact?!
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
zkncj
Posts: 3260
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:40 am

DavidByrne wrote:
Didn't NZ already state that the 77E would be used on AKL-HNL-AKL? Or have I just taken A-net rumour as fact?!


Nothing has been confirmed beyond 10 June 2018 - https://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/travel-alerts?eventid=IVEsTybYYMSioQjw94tI
 
xiaotung
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:58 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:56 am

zkncj wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
[
In terms of timing, a Luxon interview in the Herald this morning said that "Air New Zealand is negotiating for two longhaul dry lease aircraft" - seems like it might not be a done deal?

.


Well ZK-OKI is already on the New Zealand register - so surely it is an done deal? Unless they are looking for 3 aircraft in total?


The interview took place sometime before he went to Sydney or he might not have been briefed about it. Can't imagine NZ getting more than 2 dry leased aircraft.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1155
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:15 am

It's not a 5th freedom flight.

planemanofnz wrote:
One other fifth-freedom possibility, IMO, is AKL - CGK on SQ, as an extension of the NZ - SQ JV.

SQ recently attempted to launch fifth-freedom flights on SYD - CGK, but then pulled out of that.

IMO:

- NZ might look at pulling out of DPS because of EK, and a CGK flight may be a new strategy?
- The Indonesians would be more likely to give SQ rights to AKL than to SYD (as no GA to AKL)

Cheers,

C.


Let's be honest, EK isn't that interested in DPS. My understanding is they just can't get slots at their preferred transit point.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6970
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:41 am

NZ6 wrote:
It's not a 5th freedom flight.

planemanofnz wrote:
One other fifth-freedom possibility, IMO, is AKL - CGK on SQ, as an extension of the NZ - SQ JV.

SQ recently attempted to launch fifth-freedom flights on SYD - CGK, but then pulled out of that.

IMO:

- NZ might look at pulling out of DPS because of EK, and a CGK flight may be a new strategy?
- The Indonesians would be more likely to give SQ rights to AKL than to SYD (as no GA to AKL)

Cheers,

C.


Let's be honest, EK isn't that interested in DPS. My understanding is they just can't get slots at their preferred transit point.


Right not sure if that makes it easier or harder. Established in NZ or a new carrier to NZ? AC to YYZ or YVR, LA to LIM or GIG/GRU. Guessing really although AC has been mentioned before.

As for EK DPS wasn’t what I expected but SIN/KUL aren’t slot restricted are they, SIN seemed like An obvious point then NZ/SQ added a third daily.

DavidByrne wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
However, while a single 772 can do a daily AKL - SIN - AKL rotation, AFAIK, AKL - HKG - AKL (including ground time) may not allow this - so, perhaps 6x weekly on the 77W instead?

In terms of timing, a Luxon interview in the Herald this morning said that "Air New Zealand is negotiating for two longhaul dry lease aircraft" - seems like it might not be a done deal?

All up, I do think that NZ is trying its best and handling this engine debacle quite well - kudos to them for trying not to cancel that many flights, unlike others. That counts for something.

Very unlikely to have a 77W operate AKL-HKG-AKL for the reason you state: it can't do a return trip in 24 hours. Because of that, either (1) it could operate 6x weekly, BUT with a departure time staggered by about an hour a day (not good for slots or for connections), or (2) it could rotate through the rest of the 77W network (not good for consistency of product on those routes).

Didn't NZ already state that the 77E would be used on AKL-HNL-AKL? Or have I just taken A-net rumour as fact?!


An ex CX bird makes sense as the J product and I think W are similar, just 9 abreast in Y, maybe a quick reconfigure as the birds CX are returning are 4 class so remove F and move J and W up atleast and fit some more Y still at 9 abreast?

BR was also mentioned, LA are returning some 77W’s aswell, not sure what their products are like and EK returning a few early 77W’s but not a great J product.

As to routes HKG doesn’t work unless they are going to use it on all 77W routes with the existing fleet and switch HKG to 77W, seems unlikely given what NZ have said about yields to HKG/PVG. LHR/LAX/SFO use the whole fleet of 7 with 2-3 per route. SIN doesn’t seem to make sense neither does PER really. I’m thinking mixing with the other 77W’s, could do ORD 3 weekly Instead of the 789?

As to the A359 at WLG, maybe NZ want to see real life testing as an alternative diversion point for an upcoming order? Or SQ/CX maybe have requested something or it’s just airbus looking for a change of scenery to do some testing?
 
Gasman
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:59 am

DavidByrne wrote:
Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Regarding my post yesterday in the May thread re new routes.

I was wondering if anyone had heard anything? What I'm told is it's either being seriously looked at or could be announced.

To answer the questions... all I can really say is it's ex AKL with a foreign carrier to a long haul destination.

I'm reluctant to say more as it's pretty confidential where this came from.

Ooooh...... could EK DXB-AKL-LAX be a possibility?

Does the bilateral with the UAE allow for a AKL-LAX flight? I suppose technically it’s no different to have a LAX stopover en route to DXB than a DPS stopover. The only real difference is that no one would fly AKL-DXB via LAX, so it’s a bit of a distortion of the purpose of allowing fifth freedom flights within a bilateral. Would issues of government approval then come into play, perhaps?

So not a 5th freedom flight, so not EK.

But an EK insider told me about four years ago they do intend to fly transpacific. Whether or not that's still in the master plan somewhere we can only speculate.
 
tealnz
Posts: 575
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:47 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:15 am

Unclekoru wrote:
My guess would be some additional testing to validate a flight manual change or supplement for this specific model? Possibly hoping to better what was achieved during the initial flight test programme, possibly with some brake or system mods?? There has been plenty of industry talk that SQ will be replacing the 772 with the A350 later this year. True or not I don't know.

Certainly the Astra analysis said that A359 performance on the existing runways was radically worse than eg 789, 77E or A330s - to the extent of saying that takeoff/landing was not possible for a 359 in wet runway/nil wind conditions. So if there is a real 359 performance issue (does anyone know?) and if SQ are looking at switching to a 359 later in the year there is an obvious reason to do the wet weather testing.

But if Airbus can demonstrate landing performance and start/stop performance comparable to the 77E it raises a much more interesting possibility. Think it through:
    - Wellington's runway extension proposal is in doubt - funding is a big issue and it is in trouble in the courts
    - But there seems to be a market for long-haul to Asia that doesn't require Auckland transit - SQ have stuck with the Wellington route via Aus
    - If a non-stop Singapore service off the current runway proved technically viable it would be much more attractive commercially to SQ - with higher loads and yields, tapping into Europe as well as Asia traffic ex-Wellington
    - It would also give the airport company a non-stop long-haul service to a major Asian hub - without the need to spend hundreds of millions on an extension.
So conceivably there's more at stake with the testing than SQ's ability to do Wellington-Melbourne with a 359.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:29 am

NZ6 wrote:
It's not a 5th freedom flight.

Ok - my bad - I misunderstood. Does "established" mean already established at AKL? I assume so, otherwise you could argue every airline in the world is "established."

If the above is right, some options: 1) AA to DFW, 2) CZ to BJS' new airport, 3) LA to GRU or LIM, 4) MU to HGH or KMG, 5) TG to HKT, 6) UA to DEN or 7) XJ to DMK.

My own view is that if the USDOT approves the AA - QF JV, then AKL - DFW would make sense, at least seasonally, particularly given the growth in the USA market.

NZ6 wrote:
Let's be honest, EK isn't that interested in DPS. My understanding is they just can't get slots at their preferred transit point.

That's an interesting view - I haven't heard of slots coming into it. What transit points would be slot-restricted? HKG? Either way, they're committed to the DPS stop now.

DPS has grown hugely, before EK has come in - with a strong competitive advantage over NZ with a year-round flight (unlike at SIN or elsewhere), DPS makes sense?

Some points from Flight Centre on DPS - "more than 20 per cent increase in bookings" and "grown to 49,000 in the year to April compared to 39,000 ... two years ago."

See: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/new ... d=12056997.

Cheers,

C.
 
tealnz
Posts: 575
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:47 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:47 am

Wellington Airport have put out a statement with more detail on the A350 testing plans: https://www.wellingtonairport.co.nz/news/airport-updates/airbus-a350-xwb-to-be-tested-at-wellington-airport/

    ““The testing will show the different combinations of loads and distance an A350 can reach off Wellington’s runway. This trial is about determining future performance for Wellington as more of these aircraft enter the fleet in the Asia-Pacific... There is a worldwide trend among airlines to use direct, otherwise known as point-to-point, fuel efficient aircraft with seating capacity matched to demand. This enables efficient, sustainable routes to be opened up to cater for the ever growing demand in air travel, especially in the Asia-Pacific region which is one of the fastest growing in the World.”

Doesn't exactly sound as they're just checking it out for trans-Tasman hops.
 
planemanofnz
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Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:01 am

tealnz wrote:
Doesn't exactly sound as they're just checking it out for trans-Tasman hops.

No - it doesn't. What I wonder is - did SQ or WLG instigate this testing process, or was this off of Airbus' own foot?

Interesting times. The 359 has enabled routes previously restricted due to runway length, like DUB - HKG on CX.

Cheers,

C.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:34 am

planemanofnz wrote:

NZ6 wrote:
Let's be honest, EK isn't that interested in DPS. My understanding is they just can't get slots at their preferred transit point.

That's an interesting view - I haven't heard of slots coming into it. What transit points would be slot-restricted? HKG? Either way, they're committed to the DPS stop now.

DPS has grown hugely, before EK has come in - with a strong competitive advantage over NZ with a year-round flight (unlike at SIN or elsewhere), DPS makes sense?

Some points from Flight Centre on DPS - "more than 20 per cent increase in bookings" and "grown to 49,000 in the year to April compared to 39,000 ... two years ago."

See: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/new ... d=12056997.

Cheers,

C.


Naturally there'll be a lift in passengers, largely due to DPS growing as a destination ex NZ now with direct flights, add to that both NZ and EK on there now. So naturally passenger numbers will grow. The same could be said for SGN.

I've been informed by someone I trust where the preferred transit point was. Only management within EK will know how desirable DPS is vs their alternative. Let's just say they didn't launch the route with the sole purpose of AKL-DPS. For all we know it could have been a happy second place.
Last edited by NZ6 on Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:39 am

This is just a laugh, don't take this post too seriously... (and I realize this isn't new)

AIAL is getting excited now over a few new shops opening in the new retail area, well it's been all over social media lately, meanwhile in SIN (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6-b9SMlXhI)

Oranges and Apples given the massive difference in scale but shows the gap between world class and average (I wouldn't call AIAL third world as others have)
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:03 am

NZ6 wrote:
This is just a laugh, don't take this post too seriously... (and I realize this isn't new)

AIAL is getting excited now over a few new shops opening in the new retail area, well it's been all over social media lately, meanwhile in SIN (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6-b9SMlXhI)

Oranges and Apples given the massive difference in scale but shows the gap between world class and average (I wouldn't call AIAL third world as others have)

I wouldn't call AIAL third world either - although more because of the fact it's not a particularly discriminatory term rather than not wanting to cast aspersions on AKL.

I recently landed in HAV. For no good reason (it seemed like we were the only aircraft there) I waited for 2 hours at the baggage carousel. On departure, there was no water to the airport that day. Toilets inoperable, all food outlets closed (which may have been a blessing in disguise). THAT was third world. Yet from there I flew to CUN - also located in a country not over endowed with wealth - an airport which would put AKL to shame. It seemed to deal with twice the load (I don't know) in a modern facility that worked, albeit with a slightly disconcerting "Breaking Bad" vibe to the whole thing.

AKL has been caught napping. Not overstretched until recently, it's bumbled along without a clear committed sense of direction in a general display of mediocrity which has sort of worked, partly because it's not under pressure and partly because there's no competition. But in the last 18 months or so it's been welcomed into the 21st century with a wallop, and needs to rise to the occasion - soon.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:16 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
It's not a 5th freedom flight.

planemanofnz wrote:
One other fifth-freedom possibility, IMO, is AKL - CGK on SQ, as an extension of the NZ - SQ JV.

SQ recently attempted to launch fifth-freedom flights on SYD - CGK, but then pulled out of that.

IMO:

- NZ might look at pulling out of DPS because of EK, and a CGK flight may be a new strategy?
- The Indonesians would be more likely to give SQ rights to AKL than to SYD (as no GA to AKL)

Cheers,

C.


Let's be honest, EK isn't that interested in DPS. My understanding is they just can't get slots at their preferred transit point.


Right not sure if that makes it easier or harder. Established in NZ or a new carrier to NZ? AC to YYZ or YVR, LA to LIM or GIG/GRU. Guessing really although AC has been mentioned before.

As for EK DPS wasn’t what I expected but SIN/KUL aren’t slot restricted are they, SIN seemed like An obvious point then NZ/SQ added a third daily.

DavidByrne wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
However, while a single 772 can do a daily AKL - SIN - AKL rotation, AFAIK, AKL - HKG - AKL (including ground time) may not allow this - so, perhaps 6x weekly on the 77W instead?

In terms of timing, a Luxon interview in the Herald this morning said that "Air New Zealand is negotiating for two longhaul dry lease aircraft" - seems like it might not be a done deal?

All up, I do think that NZ is trying its best and handling this engine debacle quite well - kudos to them for trying not to cancel that many flights, unlike others. That counts for something.

Very unlikely to have a 77W operate AKL-HKG-AKL for the reason you state: it can't do a return trip in 24 hours. Because of that, either (1) it could operate 6x weekly, BUT with a departure time staggered by about an hour a day (not good for slots or for connections), or (2) it could rotate through the rest of the 77W network (not good for consistency of product on those routes).

Didn't NZ already state that the 77E would be used on AKL-HNL-AKL? Or have I just taken A-net rumour as fact?!


An ex CX bird makes sense as the J product and I think W are similar, just 9 abreast in Y, maybe a quick reconfigure as the birds CX are returning are 4 class so remove F and move J and W up atleast and fit some more Y still at 9 abreast?

BR was also mentioned, LA are returning some 77W’s aswell, not sure what their products are like and EK returning a few early 77W’s but not a great J product.

As to routes HKG doesn’t work unless they are going to use it on all 77W routes with the existing fleet and switch HKG to 77W, seems unlikely given what NZ have said about yields to HKG/PVG. LHR/LAX/SFO use the whole fleet of 7 with 2-3 per route. SIN doesn’t seem to make sense neither does PER really. I’m thinking mixing with the other 77W’s, could do ORD 3 weekly Instead of the 789?

As to the A359 at WLG, maybe NZ want to see real life testing as an alternative diversion point for an upcoming order? Or SQ/CX maybe have requested something or it’s just airbus looking for a change of scenery to do some testing?

Another rumour is the the CX 77W might do SFO 4x pw to free up NZ birds.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:32 am

tealnz wrote:
Unclekoru wrote:
My guess would be some additional testing to validate a flight manual change or supplement for this specific model? Possibly hoping to better what was achieved during the initial flight test programme, possibly with some brake or system mods?? There has been plenty of industry talk that SQ will be replacing the 772 with the A350 later this year. True or not I don't know.

Certainly the Astra analysis said that A359 performance on the existing runways was radically worse than eg 789, 77E or A330s - to the extent of saying that takeoff/landing was not possible for a 359 in wet runway/nil wind conditions. So if there is a real 359 performance issue (does anyone know?) and if SQ are looking at switching to a 359 later in the year there is an obvious reason to do the wet weather testing.

But if Airbus can demonstrate landing performance and start/stop performance comparable to the 77E it raises a much more interesting possibility. Think it through:
    - Wellington's runway extension proposal is in doubt - funding is a big issue and it is in trouble in the courts
    - But there seems to be a market for long-haul to Asia that doesn't require Auckland transit - SQ have stuck with the Wellington route via Aus
    - If a non-stop Singapore service off the current runway proved technically viable it would be much more attractive commercially to SQ - with higher loads and yields, tapping into Europe as well as Asia traffic ex-Wellington
    - It would also give the airport company a non-stop long-haul service to a major Asian hub - without the need to spend hundreds of millions on an extension.
So conceivably there's more at stake with the testing than SQ's ability to do Wellington-Melbourne with a 359.


What comes to mind to me is if this testing shows it’s close then maybe the extension may not need the full length. Which would mean you could satisfy both the pilot demands for the full overrun and enough extra usable runway for a range boost. Anyways, it will be very interesting to find out the test results.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:01 am

NZ6 wrote:
Let's just say they didn't launch the route with the sole purpose of AKL-DPS. For all we know it could have been a happy second place.

The great thing for EK is that they could stop pretty much anywhere in Asia, because they are less pressured with local O&D demand - the majority of the passengers using the one-stop service DXB service will likely be the lower-yielding Europe-bound passengers anyway. Even if they get something like 30% of passengers on the flight being DPS bound ex-AKL, I think they'd be happy.

In terms of alternative stops to DPS, the one that springs to mind for me is BKK - there's a history of EK serving BKK from both AKL and CHC (albeit via SYD), and Thailand does have the 'mass' potential that a big 77W or 388 would thrive on. SIN would've been good too, but risky, given the SQ-NZ alliance. KUL is too small and competitive, while HKG is also too competitive. CGK instead, perhaps?

In any event, not long now until the first EK DPS flight - it'll be great to see the EK 77W's back in AKL, for a bit of variety. :)

Cheers,

C.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:15 am

Gasman wrote:
AKL ... it's bumbled along without a clear committed sense of direction in a general display of mediocrity.

NZ6 wrote:
I wouldn't call AIAL third world as others have.

We often talk about AKL, but let's not forget that elsewhere, the situation is extremely exciting - we have new airport terminals or about-to-be upgraded terminals at the likes of GIS (date TBC), KKE (due Dec '18), NPE (due Feb '19), NPL (due Aug '19), NSN (due mid '19), TIU (done Apr '18) and TRG (due Dec '18). It's wonderful to see. Oh, and CHC and WLG aren't too shabby either!

Cheers,

C.
 
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zkojq
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:33 pm

zkncj wrote:
Have heard the 77W might be a CX bird.


I said Eva Air 77Ws last month, but some of the folks here (who are usually better informed than I am) suggested that was not the case.

tealnz wrote:
    ““The testing will show the different combinations of loads and distance an A350 can reach off Wellington’s runway. This trial is about determining future performance for Wellington as more of these aircraft enter the fleet in the Asia-Pacific... There is a worldwide trend among airlines to use direct, otherwise known as point-to-point, fuel efficient aircraft with seating capacity matched to demand. This enables efficient, sustainable routes to be opened up to cater for the ever growing demand in air travel, especially in the Asia-Pacific region which is one of the fastest growing in the World.”

But it's not point-to-point is it. It really bothers me how all the "Dreamliner" hype (because it was Boeing's marketing team who is driving it) has made people think that hub-to-point routes are point-to-point routes. SIN-WLG or HKG-WLG would be would be hub-to-point.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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zkojq
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:58 pm

zkncj wrote:
Planesmart wrote:
Given original 787 issues, and ongoing engine problems across multiple brands and models, I assume the NZ Board will take a very conservative position on future orders, especially the most expensive. So no 778/779 orders for years.

No one in the funding industry jumping up and down, saying pick me, pick me for the 777X yet. Too early. Some very meaty margins being offered, so could well be Boeing Capital has to get the market moving.


The 777 replacement order is meant to be made this year for an approximate 2020/2021 delivery start, with the current 789 issues (even though not Boeing's fault, to the general public it is). I think any future Boeing order will be handled with allot of PR care or even a A350 order would help there current PR issues right now.

ZK-NBT wrote:
Isn’t the A350 RR only? Not that it’s had the same issues as the 787. I think you are reading to much into the current situation re a possible 777X order.

By the time 2020/2021 comes around the A350 will have been in service for more than five years and should be a very mature product. The 777-9 will still be going through all the regular teething problems that new aircraft types experience (and maybe some serious ones too AKA 787 batteries or P&W GTF seals?). As it stands, the GE9X isn't even certified yet - we don't even know if it's meeting its fuel consumption guarantees/expectations. All of this surely increases the chances of Air New Zealand ordering the more mature product (A350), despite it having Rolls Royce engines? Maybe part of the compensation to Air New Zealand might involve allowing ANZES become a RR Trent Overhaul facility.

sq256 wrote:
EY are also still pondering whether to sell their VA stake due to their own financial situation. It's a matter of whether HNA or EY sells up first.

SQ hasn't really shown any interest in increasing or selling their stake either.


Maybe SQ is just waiting for EY to get desperate enough to accept a lower offer. I actually think that VA has the potential to be a really great airline if they were run by better management. If SQ upped their stake to 49%, I'm sure that would allow them to instil some better management in the airline.

NZ6 wrote:
Won't be too long :-)

I'm looking forwards to it!

zkncj wrote:
Have heard the 77W might be a CX bird.


I said Eva Air 77Ws last month, but some of the folks here (who are usually better informed than I am) suggested that was not the case.

tealnz wrote:
    ““The testing will show the different combinations of loads and distance an A350 can reach off Wellington’s runway. This trial is about determining future performance for Wellington as more of these aircraft enter the fleet in the Asia-Pacific... There is a worldwide trend among airlines to use direct, otherwise known as point-to-point, fuel efficient aircraft with seating capacity matched to demand. This enables efficient, sustainable routes to be opened up to cater for the ever growing demand in air travel, especially in the Asia-Pacific region which is one of the fastest growing in the World.”

But it's not point-to-point is it. It really bothers me how all the "Dreamliner" hype (because it was Boeing's marketing team who is driving it) has made people think that hub-to-point routes are point-to-point routes. SIN-WLG or HKG-WLG would be would be hub-to-point.

Deepinsider wrote:
Why is it that one of the two major plane makers chooses WLG (my home town)
to do this testing? pretty well as far as it's possible to be from their main base.

Further up, NZ6 implies that a 777X/A359 order decision is near. My prediction; Airbus does some circuits in the A350 around Wellington for their performance calculations. The aircraft flies up to Auckland in the evening and gets parked outside the ANZES hangar. On Tuesday morning a press conference is held in front of the A350 where it is announced that Air New Zealand is ordering Airbus A350s. Afterwards the press get to view and go through the A350.

The symbolism would be apt if ZK-NZE was still parked outside the hangar, engineles. Sadly, for the purposes of schadenfreude at least, it reentered service on Friday.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Kashmon
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:59 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
DavidJ08 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
Yes, so the 772 on AKL - SIN and the 77W on AKL - HKG, where NZ passengers regularly travel on the SQ and CX product anyway through the JV - seems like a no-brainer to me.

I dunno... It makes more sense in my mind to keep the leased aircraft on fixed regional routes (HNL is a good one with high aircraft utilisation - and pax are already aware of different product with Hi Fly operating it atm) and do big disclaimers (like they did with Hi Fly) about the product being different, rather than putting the leased ones on mainstream routes like SIN or HKG and try to cover it up.

Very valid point. I will say though, I doubt that there'll be the disappointed comments with the CX and SQ planes though, as with the Hi-Fly ones - think of those 3-3-3 Y seats, for example.

Cheers,

C.


considering that both those airlines are superior, passengers will be GLAD
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:00 pm

Gasman wrote:
But an EK insider told me about four years ago they do intend to fly transpacific. Whether or not that's still in the master plan somewhere we can only speculate.

I wouldn’t bank on EK being able to fly Transpacific to the USA any time soon given the US3’s approach, which has surely only become emboldened by Trump’s protectionist approach to foreign trade. Latin America perhaps, but they are very long, thin routes, with EK having almost nothing to offer by way of connecting traffic at AKL.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:11 pm

zkojq wrote:
But it's not point-to-point is it. It really bothers me how all the "Dreamliner" hype (because it was Boeing's marketing team who is driving it) has made people think that hub-to-point routes are point-to-point routes. SIN-WLG or HKG-WLG would be would be hub-to-point.

Yes true, sort of, but there’s another angle as well. SIN -WLG and HKG-WLG would be hub-to-point for SQ and CX respectively, but would be point-to-point in the unlikely event that NZ took up those routes.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
Deepinsider
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:39 pm

Air NZ's new dry lease arrivals. So far A-net rumour, although OKI rego
would tend to confirm it.
Each operator, SQ and CX here, have unique galley designs and re-stocking
at each stop can be a very tricky logistic. Previously when Air NZ dry leased
a LOT 763, it was restricted to Tasman (return catering onboard), Nadi and
Nagoya.(where they pre positioned exchange equipment)
My guess is that these planes will be limited to Tasman, and/or 24hr out and back locations,
such as SIN, HNL.
Product commonality with the rest of the fleet or partner airlines, too hard due to
all this, except SIN though.

re 787, Good news to see that NZE, the black one, is back in the air after 6 months
or so on the ground!
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:42 pm

zkojq wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Have heard the 77W might be a CX bird.


I said Eva Air 77Ws last month, but some of the folks here (who are usually better informed than I am) suggested that was not the case.

tealnz wrote:
    ““The testing will show the different combinations of loads and distance an A350 can reach off Wellington’s runway. This trial is about determining future performance for Wellington as more of these aircraft enter the fleet in the Asia-Pacific... There is a worldwide trend among airlines to use direct, otherwise known as point-to-point, fuel efficient aircraft with seating capacity matched to demand. This enables efficient, sustainable routes to be opened up to cater for the ever growing demand in air travel, especially in the Asia-Pacific region which is one of the fastest growing in the World.”

But it's not point-to-point is it. It really bothers me how all the "Dreamliner" hype (because it was Boeing's marketing team who is driving it) has made people think that hub-to-point routes are point-to-point routes. SIN-WLG or HKG-WLG would be would be hub-to-point.

Yes and no. Yes that they are hubs, but no because they don’t have an alternative point airport nearby. CHC-PER would not normally be considered point-hub yet PER is a city bigger than AKL and does serve as a hub. Likewise SIN is a hub but there isn’t exactly an alternative an hours drive away.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:49 pm

zkojq wrote:
But it's not point-to-point is it. It really bothers me how all the "Dreamliner" hype (because it was Boeing's marketing team who is driving it) has made people think that hub-to-point routes are point-to-point routes. SIN-WLG or HKG-WLG would be would be hub-to-point.


This is an extremely good point, and not one that had occurred to me before. It also negates some of the arguments previously made supporting the permanent demise of the VLA.

zkojq wrote:
Deepinsider wrote:
Why is it that one of the two major plane makers chooses WLG (my home town)
to do this testing? pretty well as far as it's possible to be from their main base.

Further up, NZ6 implies that a 777X/A359 order decision is near. My prediction; Airbus does some circuits in the A350 around Wellington for their performance calculations. The aircraft flies up to Auckland in the evening and gets parked outside the ANZES hangar. On Tuesday morning a press conference is held in front of the A350 where it is announced that Air New Zealand is ordering Airbus A350s. Afterwards the press get to view and go through the A350.

The symbolism would be apt if ZK-NZE was still parked outside the hangar, engineles. Sadly, for the purposes of schadenfreude at least, it reentered service on Friday.

God, I hope they order the A350.

In my opinion Boeing's most recent offings - the 777 and 787 have been clear steps backwards in terms of pax comfort (although the 77X will be slightly better). Whereas Airbus on the other hand have brought the game forwards. The A320 beats the 737, and the A332, 388 and 350 are all very comfortable places to spend a bunch of hours.
 
Mr AirNZ
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:48 pm

zkojq wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Have heard the 77W might be a CX bird.


I said Eva Air 77Ws last month, but some of the folks here (who are usually better informed than I am) suggested that was not the case.

This is where I'm a pedantic prick. You said "two 77Ws" ;)
 
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ernestxwb
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:06 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
zkojq wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Have heard the 77W might be a CX bird.


I said Eva Air 77Ws last month, but some of the folks here (who are usually better informed than I am) suggested that was not the case.

tealnz wrote:
    ““The testing will show the different combinations of loads and distance an A350 can reach off Wellington’s runway. This trial is about determining future performance for Wellington as more of these aircraft enter the fleet in the Asia-Pacific... There is a worldwide trend among airlines to use direct, otherwise known as point-to-point, fuel efficient aircraft with seating capacity matched to demand. This enables efficient, sustainable routes to be opened up to cater for the ever growing demand in air travel, especially in the Asia-Pacific region which is one of the fastest growing in the World.”

But it's not point-to-point is it. It really bothers me how all the "Dreamliner" hype (because it was Boeing's marketing team who is driving it) has made people think that hub-to-point routes are point-to-point routes. SIN-WLG or HKG-WLG would be would be hub-to-point.

Yes and no. Yes that they are hubs, but no because they don’t have an alternative point airport nearby. CHC-PER would not normally be considered point-hub yet PER is a city bigger than AKL and does serve as a hub. Likewise SIN is a hub but there isn’t exactly an alternative an hours drive away.

Actually JHB serves as an airport for SIN too, many Indonesians fly LCCs to JHB instead of SIN e.g. AirAsia's SUB-JHB
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:08 pm

Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
This is just a laugh, don't take this post too seriously... (and I realize this isn't new)

AIAL is getting excited now over a few new shops opening in the new retail area, well it's been all over social media lately, meanwhile in SIN (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6-b9SMlXhI)

Oranges and Apples given the massive difference in scale but shows the gap between world class and average (I wouldn't call AIAL third world as others have)

I wouldn't call AIAL third world either - although more because of the fact it's not a particularly discriminatory term rather than not wanting to cast aspersions on AKL.

I recently landed in HAV. For no good reason (it seemed like we were the only aircraft there) I waited for 2 hours at the baggage carousel. On departure, there was no water to the airport that day. Toilets inoperable, all food outlets closed (which may have been a blessing in disguise). THAT was third world. Yet from there I flew to CUN - also located in a country not over endowed with wealth - an airport which would put AKL to shame. It seemed to deal with twice the load (I don't know) in a modern facility that worked, albeit with a slightly disconcerting "Breaking Bad" vibe to the whole thing.

AKL has been caught napping. Not overstretched until recently, it's bumbled along without a clear committed sense of direction in a general display of mediocrity which has sort of worked, partly because it's not under pressure and partly because there's no competition. But in the last 18 months or so it's been welcomed into the 21st century with a wallop, and needs to rise to the occasion - soon.


My comments on Auckland have been a real mixed bag, I'm more frustrated by AKL than disappointed or diusgruntled.

Pros are:
1) Work is being done
2) Customers / Security is a quick process
3) Retail area is nice (even if it's always being redeveloped)
4) Personally find car parking no issue and isn't priced too badly

Negatives
1) Still too much use of stairs vs air-bridges (I don't care if airports elsewhere use them, that's not the standard that they should be striving to achieve).
2) No fast public transport
3) Gate areas especially on Pier A are suitable for A320 at best.
4) Constant promise of a master plan but extremely slow and never ending development and then redevelopment of what seems to be the same areas.

That's why I called it's average. Don't over promise and under deliver.

If the Asian - South American market continues to grow NZ could be an ideal transit point however they run a real risk of loosing some of this opportunity to the likes of MEL and BNE if they don't quickly improve some services.
 
nz2
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:13 pm

God, I hope they order the A350.

In my opinion Boeing's most recent offings - the 777 and 787 have been clear steps backwards in terms of pax comfort (although the 77X will be slightly better). Whereas Airbus on the other hand have brought the game forwards. The A320 beats the 737, and the A332, 388 and 350 are all very comfortable places to spend a bunch of hours.

I hope they chose the most capable plane, i prefer to have faith in the aircraft performing its key function first than an extra inch in the seat. As for comfort, I guess it depends where you are seated and I dont fly economy long haul as I always ensure I can upgrade or book direct in PE, and I find the PE seating in both 777 and 787 for long haul extremely good comfortwise.
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:35 pm

nz2 wrote:
God, I hope they order the A350.

In my opinion Boeing's most recent offings - the 777 and 787 have been clear steps backwards in terms of pax comfort (although the 77X will be slightly better). Whereas Airbus on the other hand have brought the game forwards. The A320 beats the 737, and the A332, 388 and 350 are all very comfortable places to spend a bunch of hours.

I hope they chose the most capable plane, i prefer to have faith in the aircraft performing its key function first than an extra inch in the seat. As for comfort, I guess it depends where you are seated and I dont fly economy long haul as I always ensure I can upgrade or book direct in PE, and I find the PE seating in both 777 and 787 for long haul extremely good comfortwise.

Of course they will choose the most capable plane. I'd argue from the Lockheed Electra onwards NZ has never made a bad purchasing decision. I'd criticise them over the speed and timing of the 744 retirement....... but not over any aircraft purchased per se.

I just hope that the most capable aircraft turns out to be the A359.

It's not just about seat width, although Boeing does seem to have a knack for designing fuselages at the exact width where squeezing in that extra seat becomes too tempting a prospect to ignore. It's also about cabin ambience, the design of the bins, sidewalls and noise levels (an area where the 777 definitely underperforms).
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:58 pm

NZ6 wrote:
Pros are: 3) Retail area is nice.

On the one hand, I agree - the area is clean and modern. However, I'd argue that the quality and variety of shops is not great - too much focus on the traditional alcohol, cosmetics and 'Kiwiana' shops. I like how WLG has more variety, with the likes of corporate wear (like 3 Wise Men for men and Trenery for women). Places like HKG and LHR also have more mid-tier offerings, like Zara.

NZ6 wrote:
If the Asian - South American market continues to grow NZ could be an ideal transit point however they run a real risk of loosing some of this opportunity to the likes of MEL and BNE if they don't quickly improve some services.

I agree - it'd be interesting if AKL, NZ and the government worked together to try and come up with innovative solutions, like targeted visa policies (like, say, a 72-hour visa-free transit visa, to allow for Chinese to stop off at AKL, whereas they wouldn't be able to in places like LAX or LHR). They could also tie-in visas for Chinese with a country like Argentina, to create a seamless experience.

nz2 wrote:
God, I hope they order the A350.

Gasman wrote:
I just hope that the most capable aircraft turns out to be the A359.

:checkmark: +1 - plus, just look how gorgeous the NZ livery would look on the 359!

Image

See: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/f ... -a350-900/.

Cheers,

C.
 
georgiabill
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:08 pm

Also looks great on a Boeing 789 or 77W! I had hopes NZ would order additional 787'S but with the engines issues I can understand their reluctance to order additional 787'S
 
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SelandiaBaru
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:21 pm

I'm all for criticism of AIAL, 2 years in and it still blows my mind how rubbish it is after many years overseas. It has very real effects on operations that the general public don't even realise.

I'm also all for healthy criticism of Air NZ, whilst realising that often people don't have the full picture that some of us are privy too. And even insider knowledge might not be complete.

I'm surprised there hasn't been much discussion on the recently announced code-share agreement: Air NZ, Qantas announce code sharing agreement. I can't really see the Commerce Commission being pleased with this and I think there are some pretty massive implications.
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:21 pm

Actually I think the current livery is the least attractive of any for the last 50 years, and that includes on the 359. How did we go from pacific wave to this? I shake my head in amazement.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:24 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Pros are: 3) Retail area is nice.

On the one hand, I agree - the area is clean and modern. However, I'd argue that the quality and variety of shops is not great - too much focus on the traditional alcohol, cosmetics and 'Kiwiana' shops. I like how WLG has more variety, with the likes of corporate wear (like 3 Wise Men for men and Trenery for women). Places like HKG and LHR also have more mid-tier offerings, like Zara.



Happy Birthday Queen we actually agree on a topic.

I guess we ultimately don't know why they're not in there though. It could be because there is no interest, high rental costs but more likely AIAL allocating space for specific merchant types (food/drink, duty free, survivor etc) and not for 'fashion'.

I'm only speculating however.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:28 pm

Gasman wrote:
Actually I think the current livery is the least attractive of any for the last 50 years, and that includes on the 359. How did we go from pacific wave to this? I shake my head in amazement.


I'm not a massive fan of too much black however due to the All Black (largely) it's because color of national identity.

I find it a lot more interesting than the predominantly white fuselage, teal tail and pacific wave (in it's time).

Would be interesting to see some form of blended version, just just a teal version of today's livery either.

But overall I like and there's a lot worse out there.
 
NPL8800
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:41 am

NZ6 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Pros are: 3) Retail area is nice.

On the one hand, I agree - the area is clean and modern. However, I'd argue that the quality and variety of shops is not great - too much focus on the traditional alcohol, cosmetics and 'Kiwiana' shops. I like how WLG has more variety, with the likes of corporate wear (like 3 Wise Men for men and Trenery for women). Places like HKG and LHR also have more mid-tier offerings, like Zara.



Happy Birthday Queen we actually agree on a topic.

I guess we ultimately don't know why they're not in there though. It could be because there is no interest, high rental costs but more likely AIAL allocating space for specific merchant types (food/drink, duty free, survivor etc) and not for 'fashion'.

I'm only speculating however.


I don't want to sound like a broken record again but I think there may be a bit of jumping the gun and we need to be a bit more patient in regards to the opening of this new area and what it will offer retail wise. People want fashion, I have no doubt that the likes of Hugo Boss, Lacoste, Longchamp, Furla, Coach, Icebreaker, Merino NZ, along with others that have yet to be announced (though if you look on Seek you can see some of the unannounced ones) will cover this segment nicely.

As for the Kiwiana vs the likes of Zara/H&M/generic high street brand, perhaps think of it from another angle, aside from the Pacific Islands, I can almost guarantee that every single international destination served from AKL has those retailers, they aren't unique, people can buy their goods at home, possibly for cheaper as well, that now includes NZers too. Kiwiana on the other hand, and im not just talking the trinkets and teatowels, im more referring to the NZ art, sculpture, honey products and more that the likes of Artport, Mountain Jade and Beecology specialise in and sell for hundreds if not thousands of dollars, these are unique and special products which is why people buy it, these products are a lasting memory of NZ for many. Tell me another airport around the world where you could find an authentic South Island greenstone mere?, compare that to a product from Zara for example. That may go a bit to explain why these "Kiwiana" retailers exist in our airports whereas more mainstream high street brands are not as prevalent.

NZ6 you are on the money in regards to the retail being allocated to specific types. I recall the strategy at the moment is "Best of NZ and the World" which gives a pretty good idea of where the retail mix is heading. There is info and the odd video online about how they generally work out what they include and what they don't.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:10 am

NPL8800 wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
On the one hand, I agree - the area is clean and modern. However, I'd argue that the quality and variety of shops is not great - too much focus on the traditional alcohol, cosmetics and 'Kiwiana' shops. I like how WLG has more variety, with the likes of corporate wear (like 3 Wise Men for men and Trenery for women). Places like HKG and LHR also have more mid-tier offerings, like Zara.



Happy Birthday Queen we actually agree on a topic.

I guess we ultimately don't know why they're not in there though. It could be because there is no interest, high rental costs but more likely AIAL allocating space for specific merchant types (food/drink, duty free, survivor etc) and not for 'fashion'.

I'm only speculating however.


I don't want to sound like a broken record again but I think there may be a bit of jumping the gun and we need to be a bit more patient in regards to the opening of this new area and what it will offer retail wise. People want fashion, I have no doubt that the likes of Hugo Boss, Lacoste, Longchamp, Furla, Coach, Icebreaker, Merino NZ, along with others that have yet to be announced (though if you look on Seek you can see some of the unannounced ones) will cover this segment nicely.

As for the Kiwiana vs the likes of Zara/H&M/generic high street brand, perhaps think of it from another angle, aside from the Pacific Islands, I can almost guarantee that every single international destination served from AKL has those retailers, they aren't unique, people can buy their goods at home, possibly for cheaper as well, that now includes NZers too. Kiwiana on the other hand, and im not just talking the trinkets and teatowels, im more referring to the NZ art, sculpture, honey products and more that the likes of Artport, Mountain Jade and Beecology specialise in and sell for hundreds if not thousands of dollars, these are unique and special products which is why people buy it, these products are a lasting memory of NZ for many. Tell me another airport around the world where you could find an authentic South Island greenstone mere?, compare that to a product from Zara for example. That may go a bit to explain why these "Kiwiana" retailers exist in our airports whereas more mainstream high street brands are not as prevalent.

NZ6 you are on the money in regards to the retail being allocated to specific types. I recall the strategy at the moment is "Best of NZ and the World" which gives a pretty good idea of where the retail mix is heading. There is info and the odd video online about how they generally work out what they include and what they don't.


But AIAL's been quick and proud to announce 21 new food and beverage outlets over 12 months yet there's no mention of anything other than food and beverage...

https://corporate.aucklandairport.co.nz ... nd-airport
https://corporate.aucklandairport.co.nz ... s-revealed
Or check out their facebook post on 31st May.
 
NPL8800
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:00 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:37 am

NZ6 wrote:
NPL8800 wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

Happy Birthday Queen we actually agree on a topic.

I guess we ultimately don't know why they're not in there though. It could be because there is no interest, high rental costs but more likely AIAL allocating space for specific merchant types (food/drink, duty free, survivor etc) and not for 'fashion'.

I'm only speculating however.


I don't want to sound like a broken record again but I think there may be a bit of jumping the gun and we need to be a bit more patient in regards to the opening of this new area and what it will offer retail wise. People want fashion, I have no doubt that the likes of Hugo Boss, Lacoste, Longchamp, Furla, Coach, Icebreaker, Merino NZ, along with others that have yet to be announced (though if you look on Seek you can see some of the unannounced ones) will cover this segment nicely.

As for the Kiwiana vs the likes of Zara/H&M/generic high street brand, perhaps think of it from another angle, aside from the Pacific Islands, I can almost guarantee that every single international destination served from AKL has those retailers, they aren't unique, people can buy their goods at home, possibly for cheaper as well, that now includes NZers too. Kiwiana on the other hand, and im not just talking the trinkets and teatowels, im more referring to the NZ art, sculpture, honey products and more that the likes of Artport, Mountain Jade and Beecology specialise in and sell for hundreds if not thousands of dollars, these are unique and special products which is why people buy it, these products are a lasting memory of NZ for many. Tell me another airport around the world where you could find an authentic South Island greenstone mere?, compare that to a product from Zara for example. That may go a bit to explain why these "Kiwiana" retailers exist in our airports whereas more mainstream high street brands are not as prevalent.

NZ6 you are on the money in regards to the retail being allocated to specific types. I recall the strategy at the moment is "Best of NZ and the World" which gives a pretty good idea of where the retail mix is heading. There is info and the odd video online about how they generally work out what they include and what they don't.


But AIAL's been quick and proud to announce 21 new food and beverage outlets over 12 months yet there's no mention of anything other than food and beverage...

https://corporate.aucklandairport.co.nz ... nd-airport
https://corporate.aucklandairport.co.nz ... s-revealed
Or check out their facebook post on 31st May.


My guess being that's because they did their main retail announcements last year regarding the first tranche of stores as well as the releasing some of the names for the luxury precinct. Food and beverage had been kept under warps until the last month.

Various releases regarding retail announcements:
https://corporate.aucklandairport.co.nz ... n-december
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/990018 ... evelopment
https://www.moodiedavittreport.com/from ... ion-offer/
http://www.futuretravelexperience.com/2 ... xperience/
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