Northwest1988
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Concorde route question

Thu May 31, 2018 3:59 pm

Hello all,

Forgive me but Im relatively unfamiliar with destinations that were served by Concorde. What routes did Air France and British Airways fly the Concorde regularly on other than Washington DC and New York? We’re there other regularly scheduled destinations on the eastern US? Or any other international destinations?
 
GDB
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Re: Concorde route question

Thu May 31, 2018 4:31 pm

This section of a very informative site should answer your question;

http://www.concordesst.com/history/destinations.html

The historic destinations were largely ended by the early 80's, in both airline's cases.
In part, an expanded charter program kept them busy, (by the late 90's, BA were doing 300 or so of them a year), many were LHR-LHR supersonic excursions at a much lower price, however plenty others happened several times a year. So that very long list of destinations under charters, contains places visited one or two times but also plenty that were fairly frequent. Some also being stops on the occasional Round The World charters that BA and AF did.

From the late 1980's, to the end, between November and April, BA did scheduled LGR-BGI services. One on a Saturday, though some weekends we would launch a second Saturday LHR-BGI, or one the Sunday. Also this route was served on Saturdays in August when there was not the demand for a second LHR-JFK/JFK-LHR service.
In the early days of this service, there were stops usually at Lisbon, but as experience in flight planning and maintenance grew, non stop to BGI became the norm.

I am going on about BGI aren't I? Probably as I think all of us in BA Concorde, crew and in my case, part of the engineering operation, were proud of safely running a route to BGI which in bare numbers, was beyond the aircraft's range! In fact it was due to the atmosphere at around 60,000 feet being cooler in the tropics, than for instance the North Atlantic, thus increasing engine efficiency.
Probably too that my last Concorde flight, with other BA staffers, with full service, was delivering G-BOAE to retirement in BGI.
The longest and the highest (we reached 60,000 feet, the usual N.Atlantic being 58,000 max), what a way to end!
 
NYCAAer
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Re: Concorde route question

Thu May 31, 2018 6:41 pm

Air France also flew to Caracas by way of the Azores for a fuel stop in the big oil days of the late 70s, and the Washington flight continued on to Mexico City for a time, in addition to the inaugural route to Rio with a fuel stop in Dakar.
 
xtra1
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Re: Concorde route question

Thu May 31, 2018 6:42 pm

As a kid, I took the British Airways/ Singapore Airlines Concorde from Singapore to London. Paya Lebar - Bahrain - Heathrow (In 1979). I believe it was 3x a week. Singapore cabin crew until Bahrain; then British Airways cabin crew from Bahrain to London.
 
xtra1
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Re: Concorde route question

Thu May 31, 2018 7:04 pm

Here is a quick scan of my boarding pass, from that flight:-
Image
 
GDB
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Re: Concorde route question

Thu May 31, 2018 7:15 pm

xtra1 wrote:
As a kid, I took the British Airways/ Singapore Airlines Concorde from Singapore to London. Paya Lebar - Bahrain - Heathrow (In 1979). I believe it was 3x a week. Singapore cabin crew until Bahrain; then British Airways cabin crew from Bahrain to London.


Must have been quite an experience, I'm jealous! Can you remember if the aircraft had the BA livery on one side, SIA the other? Only G-BOAD had this, inevitably some services on that route would be operated by the others but yes, 3 times a week until 1980.
 
xtra1
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Re: Concorde route question

Thu May 31, 2018 7:31 pm

GDB wrote:
xtra1 wrote:
As a kid, I took the British Airways/ Singapore Airlines Concorde from Singapore to London. Paya Lebar - Bahrain - Heathrow (In 1979). I believe it was 3x a week. Singapore cabin crew until Bahrain; then British Airways cabin crew from Bahrain to London.


Must have been quite an experience, I'm jealous! Can you remember if the aircraft had the BA livery on one side, SIA the other? Only G-BOAD had this, inevitably some services on that route would be operated by the others but yes, 3 times a week until 1980.


Unfortunately, It was British Airways livery in both sides. I also remember that the landing at Heathrow was pretty rough! Think we used the tail skid wheel.
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EvanWSFO
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Re: Concorde route question

Thu May 31, 2018 8:43 pm

The history link above excludes BA's second attempt at DFW, either 2 or 3x weekly to LHR via IAD, several years after BN. It used to park in what was then 4E.
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DominoxX
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Re: Concorde route question

Thu May 31, 2018 9:59 pm

to add to this thread, I've seen on a BA brochure that daily fleet utilisation of Concorde was around 2 and a half hours daily!?
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prebennorholm
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Re: Concorde route question

Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:07 am

DominoxX wrote:
to add to this thread, I've seen on a BA brochure that daily fleet utilisation of Concorde was around 2 and a half hours daily!?

Sound reasonable. BA made roughly 150,000 hours with their 7 planes over 25 years = 9,000 days, 7 planes makes 63,000 plane-days. 150,000 divided by 63,000 = two and a half.

AF flew somewhat less, roughly 90,000 hours.

14 planes made some 240,000 hours. If the Concorde had been utilized as intensively as modern long range planes nowadays, how many planes would have been needed? Two planes!!!
Well, make that three planes in order to survive periods of heavy maintenance. Still it wouldn't have worked because the Concorde was never certified to last anywhere near 80,000 hours per frame.

Also interesting, if we look at the total seat-miles, which the 14 Concordes produced over 25 years, then one single, quite buzy 747 would have done the same work. Slower, yes, but it did produce the same seat-miles as all 14 production Concordes combined.

Very rough numbers: The 747 has so far done 1,000 times more work than the Concorde. While the Concorde has done 1,000 times more work than the Tu-144.
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LAXLHR
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Re: Concorde route question

Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:56 am

prebennorholm wrote:
DominoxX wrote:
to add to this thread, I've seen on a BA brochure that daily fleet utilisation of Concorde was around 2 and a half hours daily!?

Sound reasonable. BA made roughly 150,000 hours with their 7 planes over 25 years = 9,000 days, 7 planes makes 63,000 plane-days. 150,000 divided by 63,000 = two and a half.

AF flew somewhat less, roughly 90,000 hours.

14 planes made some 240,000 hours. If the Concorde had been utilized as intensively as modern long range planes nowadays, how many planes would have been needed? Two planes!!!
Well, make that three planes in order to survive periods of heavy maintenance. Still it wouldn't have worked because the Concorde was never certified to last anywhere near 80,000 hours per frame.

Also interesting, if we look at the total seat-miles, which the 14 Concordes produced over 25 years, then one single, quite buzy 747 would have done the same work. Slower, yes, but it did produce the same seat-miles as all 14 production Concordes combined.

Very rough numbers: The 747 has so far done 1,000 times more work than the Concorde. While the Concorde has done 1,000 times more work than the Tu-144.


Interesting. Keep in mind that the flights took half the time, would still need several frames to complete individual flights per the schedule they used for schedule, charters and other specials. BA made good use of theirs from the massive market that is London.
BA JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL QQ UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR PG MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN PC LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 332 333 342 343 380
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: Concorde route question

Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:05 am

MEX was a regular route, I loved watching it take off it was deafening..... in fact my dog became deaf after 12 years of take offs of 707 727 dc9 Dc8 and the concorde the Dc10 the Trsitar and Jumbo were very quiet...

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NickolayAv
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Re: Concorde route question

Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:51 am

Although I never saw it in person, I know that Concordes of both BA and AF came to Boston at some point.
Does anyone know if those were one-offs or were those regularly scheduled routes?
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aeromoe
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Re: Concorde route question

Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:30 am

BA also flew LHR-IAD-MIA return during the 80s at least. I have several photos of G-BOAG on the a.net competitor's site taken from the MIA observation deck on 12 February 1987.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/30185

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/30192
AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR BY B6 CO CP(2) DG DL EA EI EN FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(1) OZ(2) PA PI PT QF QQ RM RO RV(1) RV(2) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(2) ZZ 9K
 
GDB
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Re: Concorde route question

Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
The history link above excludes BA's second attempt at DFW, either 2 or 3x weekly to LHR via IAD, several years after BN. It used to park in what was then 4E.


That's right, in summer of 1988. I was not on the fleet at the time, though with BA. So I don't know if there was a particular reason for it.
 
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Re: Concorde route question

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:03 pm

GDB wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
The history link above excludes BA's second attempt at DFW, either 2 or 3x weekly to LHR via IAD, several years after BN. It used to park in what was then 4E.


That's right, in summer of 1988. I was not on the fleet at the time, though with BA. So I don't know if there was a particular reason for it.


IIRC, it was BA's way to get a direct flight from DFW-LHR, albeit with a stop at IAD. I don't think it lasted long. Was fun to see. Parked next to a DL 72S, it seemed so small.
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SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Concorde route question

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:27 pm

BA did a charter flight to SYR with the Concorde, but I don't remember the year. I have a clipping of the article that had the information, but the year isn't posted on it.
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Re: Concorde route question

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:02 pm

aeromoe wrote:
BA also flew LHR-IAD-MIA return during the 80s at least. I have several photos of G-BOAG on the a.net competitor's site taken from the MIA observation deck on 12 February 1987.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/30185

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/30192


Yes, Miami was a regular Concorde destination from 1984 to 1991.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/14/busi ... corde.html
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Theproudbird
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:11 am

MIA was a regular too relieve daily visits for a while as well
 
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:57 am

BA brought a Concorde to Wichita for a charter some time after 1998. It was on the news, and I drove by the airport to see it sitting at the gate.

Not quite as interesting as chasing a Shorts Belfast into ICT. Saw it on approach while driving on I235 coming from Boeing. Stared at it for a while before it registered that it was a Belfast. Detoured over to the Airport to see it parked. Figured it must have been bringing Learjet parts from Shorts in Belfast.
 
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:28 am

NickolayAv wrote:
Although I never saw it in person, I know that Concordes of both BA and AF came to Boston at some point.
Does anyone know if those were one-offs or were those regularly scheduled routes?


No regularly scheduled service, but a few tour stops and charters. I think the east/west crossing speed records were set on flights involving Boston.

Actually one of the more interesting early Concorde stories involves Boston.

Air France had a concorde leave Boston, while a 747 simultaneously left Paris. The concorde did BOS-CDG-BOS, with almost an hour delay at CDG, 11 minutes faster than the 747 did CDG-BOS. Really an amazing feat
 
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:43 am

GDB wrote:
This section of a very informative site should answer your question;

http://www.concordesst.com/history/destinations.html

The historic destinations were largely ended by the early 80's, in both airline's cases.
In part, an expanded charter program kept them busy, (by the late 90's, BA were doing 300 or so of them a year), many were LHR-LHR supersonic excursions at a much lower price, however plenty others happened several times a year. So that very long list of destinations under charters, contains places visited one or two times but also plenty that were fairly frequent. Some also being stops on the occasional Round The World charters that BA and AF did.

From the late 1980's, to the end, between November and April, BA did scheduled LGR-BGI services. One on a Saturday, though some weekends we would launch a second Saturday LHR-BGI, or one the Sunday. Also this route was served on Saturdays in August when there was not the demand for a second LHR-JFK/JFK-LHR service.
In the early days of this service, there were stops usually at Lisbon, but as experience in flight planning and maintenance grew, non stop to BGI became the norm.

I am going on about BGI aren't I? Probably as I think all of us in BA Concorde, crew and in my case, part of the engineering operation, were proud of safely running a route to BGI which in bare numbers, was beyond the aircraft's range! In fact it was due to the atmosphere at around 60,000 feet being cooler in the tropics, than for instance the North Atlantic, thus increasing engine efficiency.
Probably too that my last Concorde flight, with other BA staffers, with full service, was delivering G-BOAE to retirement in BGI.
The longest and the highest (we reached 60,000 feet, the usual N.Atlantic being 58,000 max), what a way to end!


Great to see some posts from GDB - the Concorde expert - again !!
 
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:24 am

Air France Concorde regular routes were :

CDG-DKR-GIG
CDG-IAD
CDG-JFK
CDG-(SMA = refueling stop)-CCS
CDG-IAD-MEX
CDG-JFK-MEX.

On May 26 1979, an Air France Concorde skipped the SMA refueling stop and flew CCS-CDG nonstop (flight AF200 F-BTSC) covering the 7780km/4836mi in only 4h19 including 3h37 at supersonic speed, making this flight the longest ever nonstop Concorde flight.
 
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AirAfreak
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:26 am

The BA Concorde made an appearance one stormy winter at AVL (Asheville/Hendersonville (Regional Airport) in North Carolina sometime in the 80’s. That was quite a sight which made an appearance on the local news.
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simairlinenet
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:03 am

I made a map many years ago (+Tu-144): http://www.simairline.net/concorde/routemap.gif
 
gunnerman
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:31 pm

Speaking of Barbados: There was a regular Saturday morning flight from LHR T4 during the winter, with additional flights sometimes in late summer/early autumn and over the Christmas period. A Barbados newspaper had a photograph of three Concordes parked in a row (two BA, one AF) during one of the Christmas periods, wish I'd kept it.

Passengers were allowed just one bag but some passengers actually got more than their allowance. The 100 seats were rarely filled, presumably due to weight restrictions.

There was a period, can't remember when, of charters flights from JFK to BGI.

Oh, and on a different subject, here is G-BOAA on its first flight from LHR to BAH on 21 January 1976.

http://mediacentre.britishairways.com/image/details/47408
 
GDB
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:14 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Speaking of Barbados: There was a regular Saturday morning flight from LHR T4 during the winter, with additional flights sometimes in late summer/early autumn and over the Christmas period. A Barbados newspaper had a photograph of three Concordes parked in a row (two BA, one AF) during one of the Christmas periods, wish I'd kept it.

Passengers were allowed just one bag but some passengers actually got more than their allowance. The 100 seats were rarely filled, presumably due to weight restrictions.

There was a period, can't remember when, of charters flights from JFK to BGI.

Oh, and on a different subject, here is G-BOAA on its first flight from LHR to BAH on 21 January 1976.

http://mediacentre.britishairways.com/image/details/47408


We did a number of JFK-BGI charters in early 1999.

As well as the regular JFK run, around Christmas there were LHR-JFK charters laid on too, I note with sadness that the ill fated AF4590 was also a charter to JFK, though in the summer.
While we stopped the thrice weekly LHR-IAD route in late 1994 (my first Concorde flight was IAD-LHR a year before, BA had teamed up with USAirways, and had offered a staff package of Club to the US, 5 internal US flights on US Airways, returning to LHR on Concorde). There were still flights to IAD after the scheduled service ended, the odd political/VIP charter and a bunch of them around IMF conferences in September.
Last edited by GDB on Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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jbpdx
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:22 pm

It flew over me on the Florida Turnpike landing at MIA, and one other time when I arrived at MIA it was parked at the gate next to mine.
 
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:51 pm

Concorde tit bit.
The attachment on the nose leg for the towbar was as usual different from any other aircraft. But Concorde flew many odd routes and often needed a pushback.
While I was working for BA at ARN in the 1990s it was LGW airport 50th birthday. As a gimmick, BA based a Concorde at LGW for a week, and it flew regular scheduled B737 flights. One day it came to ARN. It parked on a normal gate, and after a very short turnround (for a Concorde) it was on its way.
We had been loaned a nose leg adaptor, that allowed us to use a B747 towbar. So I was on the headset for my one and only Concorde pushback. Two airstarts, one each side, to start the engines (No APU on Concorde) and off we went. Pushback complete and I removed the adaptor from the B747 towbar, and the R1 door opened, and a rope came down. I tied the adaptor onto the rope, and the flight engineer hauled it on board. BA only had four adaptors, and Concorde was flying a lot of routes that week.

I was lucky to be working in BAH at the GF hangar in the late 70s when the BAH-SIN flights were operated. The SIN depareture was at 2200, and we drove out and parked beside the runway and watched as four reheats pushed Concorde over the horizon at wave top height in the dark night. Luckily there was sea at each end of the BAH runway.
 
Northwest1988
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Re: Concorde route question

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:11 pm

On the IAD-MIA flight, did it fly out over water far enough to go super sonic or was it a subsonic flight? I’m assuming subsonic...
 
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Re: Concorde route question

Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:25 am

FlySSC wrote:
Air France Concorde regular routes were :

CDG-DKR-GIG
CDG-IAD
CDG-JFK
CDG-(SMA = refueling stop)-CCS
CDG-IAD-MEX
CDG-JFK-MEX.

On May 26 1979, an Air France Concorde skipped the SMA refueling stop and flew CCS-CDG nonstop (flight AF200 F-BTSC) covering the 7780km/4836mi in only 4h19 including 3h37 at supersonic speed, making this flight the longest ever nonstop Concorde flight.




That’s very impressive, what kind of payload was carried ?
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B2707SST
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Re: Concorde route question

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:12 am

I've long wondered why AF never operated Concorde services to Montreal. It would have been shorter than CDG-IAD even with a brief subsonic cruise inland from the Gulf of Maine, and takeoff noise shouldn't have been an issue given Mirabel's isolation. Seems much more viable than Caracas and Mexico City via IAD, but I'm sure they had their reasons.
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Re: Concorde route question

Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:32 am

B2707SST wrote:
I've long wondered why AF never operated Concorde services to Montreal. It would have been shorter than CDG-IAD even with a brief subsonic cruise inland from the Gulf of Maine, and takeoff noise shouldn't have been an issue given Mirabel's isolation. Seems much more viable than Caracas and Mexico City via IAD, but I'm sure they had their reasons.


Unlike CCS (at that time) and MEX, YUL is not and has never been a « premium »/business market for AF.
It is one of AF most important rpite but mostly leisure, with people certainly not ready to pay 10000€ round trip even for a 3 hours or so supersonic ride.
 
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Re: Concorde route question

Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:46 am

Max Q wrote:
FlySSC wrote:
Air France Concorde regular routes were :

CDG-DKR-GIG
CDG-IAD
CDG-JFK
CDG-(SMA = refueling stop)-CCS
CDG-IAD-MEX
CDG-JFK-MEX.

On May 26 1979, an Air France Concorde skipped the SMA refueling stop and flew CCS-CDG nonstop (flight AF200 F-BTSC) covering the 7780km/4836mi in only 4h19 including 3h37 at supersonic speed, making this flight the longest ever nonstop Concorde flight.




That’s very impressive, what kind of payload was carried ?


I wasn't aware of that flight either - indeed impressive with one of the earlier planes too.

But as we know Concorde was affected by weather conditions, so fortunate weather conditions could allow quite longer flights than expected. I'm guessing it was helpful wind conditions and cold air temperatures.
 
Max Q
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Re: Concorde route question

Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:55 am

It’s an incredible capability lost



The fact it was able to fly this route nonstop is impressive, more so is being able to sustain supersonic speeds for 3.37




I don’t believe there’s any other aircraft (still) military or civilian that can do that
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GDB
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Re: Concorde route question

Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:23 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
Concorde tit bit.
The attachment on the nose leg for the towbar was as usual different from any other aircraft. But Concorde flew many odd routes and often needed a pushback.
While I was working for BA at ARN in the 1990s it was LGW airport 50th birthday. As a gimmick, BA based a Concorde at LGW for a week, and it flew regular scheduled B737 flights. One day it came to ARN. It parked on a normal gate, and after a very short turnround (for a Concorde) it was on its way.
We had been loaned a nose leg adaptor, that allowed us to use a B747 towbar. So I was on the headset for my one and only Concorde pushback. Two airstarts, one each side, to start the engines (No APU on Concorde) and off we went. Pushback complete and I removed the adaptor from the B747 towbar, and the R1 door opened, and a rope came down. I tied the adaptor onto the rope, and the flight engineer hauled it on board. BA only had four adaptors, and Concorde was flying a lot of routes that week.

I was lucky to be working in BAH at the GF hangar in the late 70s when the BAH-SIN flights were operated. The SIN depareture was at 2200, and we drove out and parked beside the runway and watched as four reheats pushed Concorde over the horizon at wave top height in the dark night. Luckily there was sea at each end of the BAH runway.


The trials of operating a very non standard aircraft! On many charters, to airfields not usually served by Concorde - which was just about all of them except JFK, IAD and CDG (we did charters there, AF did some to UK fields) - an extra engineer was one of the pax, along with a spares pack in the hold. An example, Concorde used a specialised hydraulic fluid.

To Max Q's point, in 1985, when after several years in storage, G-BOAG was returned to service, being the first in the then new Landor livery and having the first of the major cabin overhauls, a photoshoot was arranged to catch G-BOAG at Mach 2, the photo aircraft being a BAe Tornado ADV, the pics were great but as I understand it, not at Mach 2, more like 1.8 which is when the stripped down Mach 2 capable interceptor development aircraft, had to break off!
I'd love to post a pic from this event however a quick Google looks like they are copyright, by the man who took it and so many other great images, so fair enough.
I just remember it being reproduced on the front page of the BA News at the time.
 
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Re: Concorde route question

Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:39 pm

AirAfreak wrote:
The BA Concorde made an appearance one stormy winter at AVL (Asheville/Hendersonville (Regional Airport) in North Carolina sometime in the 80’s. That was quite a sight which made an appearance on the local news.


Check out my avatar. :D
 
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AirAfreak
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Re: Concorde route question

Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:24 pm

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
AirAfreak wrote:
The BA Concorde made an appearance one stormy winter at AVL (Asheville/Hendersonville (Regional Airport) in North Carolina sometime in the 80’s. That was quite a sight which made an appearance on the local news.


Check out my avatar. :D


It’s the BA Concorde at AVL!!! Nice!!!!!
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gunnerman
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Re: Concorde route question

Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:52 pm

Concorde made an appearance at a staggering list of airports on charter flights. As AVL's runway is 8,000ft, I doubt whether a fully-loaded Concorde could have made it back to LHR nonstop, so I'm guessing that a refueling stop may have been made at IAD or JFK.
 
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Re: Concorde route question

Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:10 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Concorde made an appearance at a staggering list of airports on charter flights. As AVL's runway is 8,000ft, I doubt whether a fully-loaded Concorde could have made it back to LHR nonstop, so I'm guessing that a refueling stop may have been made at IAD or JFK.


Correct. I believe it stopped at JFK.

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